Help Switched motors on Exmark, can't shut off new 1

[luckylawnboy]

I had a 14 hp kaw. FC420V and pulled it off and put on a 17hp FH500V twin. Every thing went great, Except I can't get it to shut off. It is supposed to shut down when you pull the throttel sp All the way down, and choke is all the way up. There is a Black wire on the side off the engine I don't know what it goes to. I guessing it has something to do with kill the motor. I tried to touch it to the block, but no effect . The motor is a pull start. The only way I can get it to shut off is to turn the fuel off, and let it run out. It takes 5 min though . I am going to have to drive down the road with my mower running on the trailer. lol

do I need a kill switch, and if so what kind. Will a simple toggle switch work.

Oh yea the new twin seems to be much smoother and quiter. Haven't used it yet so don't know about how much more power it has.

[Richard Martin]

Yes, the black wire should be attached to the same wire that killed your 14. If your 14 didn't have a kill switch then you can install a toggle switch.

The toggle switch will have 2 poles or 2 wires. 1 side attaches (it doesn't matter which side you use) to the black wire coming out of the engine and the other side should be attached to an engine bolt that comes directly out of the block.

[geogunn]

LLB--it seems like your exmark should have a manual blade engager lever. there is supposed to be a safety switch on the lever so that if the blades are engaged and you turn loose of the operator presence handles, the unit will die.

what you do to kill the engine is just tip the handle enough to trip the safety switch but not enough to spin the blades (without pressing the operator presence handles).

if your machine isn't set up this way, you need to be real careful!

BY THE WAY--I thought the 17 hp doubles were all electric start, but I guess not. I don't really want an electric start because they are heavier and the battery is a maintainance item after a couple of years.

how much did the 17 run you? I might consider the same thing with the ole lesco 14/48. I replaced my belt pulleys and the thing is running great now. but with all the trash cuts I have, I can always use more power!

GEO

[Cutter1]

My 17 Kaw is a pull start. It has a key on the side to turn it off and on. Maybe this is why you can't turn it off?? The key just turns it on, then you have to pull it. My 15 turns off by way of the throttle lever. Ask your dealer what you should do, but I agree with Richard Martin, you should get a toggle switchor a key to turn it on and off.

[Richard Martin]

geogunn wrote:

<b><i>how much did the 17 run you?</b></i>

I just put a 17 Kawi twin on my 50" GRAVEly and it makes a huge difference over the 14 Kawi that came off. I got mine from http://www.alamia.com for $795.00 including shipping. Warranty work is handled on these by any authorized Kawasaki dealer and not just commercial mower outlets.

As a side note to this I took the 14 Kawi that I took off to my local repair shop just to get it pulled apart and checked out before I put it on my 36" Exmark. They said the bearings were all nice and tight but when they pulled the pulled the piston out the rings were trashed. They asked me how many hours were on the engine and I told them around 500 to 600. They then told me the rings may have been messed up when the engine was brand new.

[awm]

iF THE RINGS WERE BAD IT WOULD USE OIL
BAD AND OR THE COMPRESSION WOULD HAVE POOR.
iF THE RINGS WERE BAD PERFORMANCE WOULD
HAVE BEEN BAD ALSO.jUST MINE TM

[Cutter1]

I have two turf tracers. One with a 15 kohler the other a 17 Kaw. I didn't replace one with the other.

[Richard Martin]

AWM wrote:

<b><i>iF THE RINGS WERE BAD IT WOULD USE OIL BAD AND OR THE COMPRESSION WOULD HAVE POOR</b></i>

The only indication that there could be a problem was oil on the air filter pre cleaner (foam wrap). I have been told that it is difficult at best to do a compression test on a single cylinder engine with an automatic compression release.

I have never had to add oil to this engine. If the rings were bad from the factory then a performance loss would not have been noticed. A friend of mine who has the exact same mower/engine combo used my mower once and he said that it didn't seem to have as much power as his. Now I know why.

[geogunn]

cutter--is your 17 a single or double? thanks.

GEO

[toddman35]

I had a 14 hp kaw. FC420V and pulled it off and put on a 17hp FH500V twin. its a twin i belive.

[luckylawnboy]

Well thanks for the info, I put a switch on it and it worked. I showed my dealer the Alamia price so he met it for me. I also paid $50 for 6 Quarts of Kaw. Oil. It will provide an extra two years of warranty. I have $ 900 in it in all. New bolts, to mount it because the new ones don't screw into the block. a switch, and new Tach/hour meter.. Oh and a longer throtle cable. This winter I am going to go through it and put new tires and make it like new.

[luckylawnboy]

Oh yea, I hope this thing will pick up more power. I bogs way down when I use it. RPM's are 3570 with no load, and 3340 with the blades, it might hit 3450 if Im lucky. When I mow it drops down to 2900 or so. I can't figure it out. Hopefully once it gets broke in it will pick up more power. It runs smother, but I am not impressed yet.

[geogunn]

LLB--oh no! you were getting me excited about this convwesion! do you think the governor isn't opening up under the load?

when the old 14 kaw heads south I guess I'll have to ask MISTER STONE what kind of tecumseh he recomends.:)

GEO

[luckylawnboy]

How would I know if the governor is not opening up. I want to get this thing working good. I hate having something new and it not work any better than the old one.

[Richard Martin]

luckylawnboy, the difference between my old 14 and my new 17 is incredible. Mine will crank to 3700 and it rotates the blades at 3650. I run it at 3300 with the blades rotating and it never drops under 3200.

It sounds like you need to adjust the throttle cable. I adjusted mine by pushing the throttle all the way to the full throttle position (just before the choke position) and then adjusted the cable on the engine so it was just barely pushing the choke linkage.

You will know you have it right when the engine is cold and it starts with one or two pulls.

If you set the cable correctly and it still doesn't wind to 3600+rpm let me know and I will tell you how to adjust the high idle setting.

[cabrone]

On 17hp kaw's there is a bracket just below the air filter held on by 2 bolts that can be removed/loosened w/ a 10mm socket. Loosen both of these bolts. Take a small pry bar and move the right side bracket in a upward motion. This is the governor bracket and will give you more power. Remember to tighten both sides when you are done. Secondly, there is a throttle plate located in the carb. w/ a small phillips screw in the center, loosen it and adjust. Thirdly, there is a problem w/ to much crankcase pressure and oil finds it way into the air filter, simply remove the crankcase tube (its a black rubber hose) which plugs into the back of the air filter case and fill the hole left in the case with a rubber stopper. Kawasaki knows about this problem and have yet to come up w/ a solution!!! After I did this to my 5 Kaw's they have performed perfectly. Oh, by the way, you guys are taking it in the shorts on parts/engines,mowers, blowers, trimmers, everything!!! call Russo's in Chicago, Il. @ 1-877-do russo and they will blow away Alamo or whatever there name is!!!

[Richard Martin]

Cabrone wrote:

<b><i>Thirdly, there is a problem w/ to much crankcase pressure and oil finds it way into the air filter, simply remove the crankcase tube (its a black rubber hose) which plugs into the back of the air filter case and fill the hole left in the case with a rubber stopper. Kawasaki knows about this problem and have yet to come up w/ a solution!!! </b></i>

I personally don't think that this is the way to fix this problem. This tube that you are removing is the crankcase breather vent and plugging the hole can cause oil leaks all over the engine. The first thing to leak is usually the governor shaft seal or the base gasket.

The Kawasaki engine is not mystical. If it is blowing oil out of the crankcase breather tube it is caused by a condition called "blowby" which is caused by bad rings allowing cylinder pressure to escape into the crankcase which in turn blows any suspended oil in the crankcase out the breather onto the aircleaner.

The best way to fix the blowby is to get an oversized piston and rings, bore the cylinder to the appropriate size, hone the cylinder and then check the end gap on the rings before installation.

[luckylawnboy]

I have got the throttle set perfect. How do I adjust the high speed. Thanks. And I personally feel it is the Governor. It will get 3600 no load. But just going forward causes it to lose rpm's when the blades are on.

[cabrone]

Richard, are you suggesting that I have five (5) Kawasaki engines, all of which are less than two (2) years old and all of which have less than 800 hours that they all need oversized pistons and rings??? If you read my post correctly I said that by removing the black rubber tube from the breather housing and placing a rubber stopper in that hole not the hose itself you will no longer get oil in your air filter, of course if you put the stopper in the end of the tube you will have all kinds of problems. By the way, all five (5) engines are within their warranty and I plan to talk very loudly with the Kawasaki people at the Mid-Am show in Chicago in January since I have told them, my dealer and anyone else that will listen about this problem, these engines have a design flaw!!! That might get their attention since no one likes bad pub!!!

[Richard Martin]

Cabrone wrote:

<b><i>Richard, are you suggesting that I have five (5) Kawasaki engines, all of which are less than two (2) years old and all of which have less than 800 hours that they all need oversized pistons and rings???</b></i>

Blowby <i>is</i> the cause of oil being blown out the breather tube. And there can be several reasons for it 2 of which would be caused from the factory.

The first is a set of bad rings. It happens and there's nothing Kawasaki can do about it.

The second is a bad bore at the factory. If the bore is not at a perfect 90 degree angle to the crank this will lead to premature piston and ring wear. If the bore is too big it will allow the ring end gap to be too large resulting in ring blowby.

The non-factory reasons come down to 2 things. A lack of factory recommended oil or oil change intervals and overheating.

The oil and oil change intervals need no explanation.

Overheating is easier to do on a aircooled engine than a lot of people think it is. There generally are 2 ways to overheat an aircooled engine.

The first is to not follow the factory recommended once a year or every 300 hours removal of the shrouding around the engine and cleaning all the accumulated debris out of the cooling fins.

The second is idleing. When an engine idles it greatly reduces the amount of cool air circulating around the cooling fins. Kawasaki does recommend allowing an engine to idle for a 1 minute period before shutting it off.

If the engine idles for more than 1 minute the engine temps start to rise because of a lack of sufficient air circulating around the cooling fins.

When Kawasaki engines overheat one of the things that happens is it starts to create hot spots in the cylinder. When these hot spots occur it creates a high spot on the cylinder wall. It is where these high spots occur that cylinder and piston ring damage happen causing blowby.

If your engines are experiencing blowby to the point where it is causing a large black spot on the aircleaner then there is something wrong.

If your engines are within the warranty period I would take them to <i>any</i> authorized Kawasaki warranty center and get them repaired, hopefully at Kawasaki's expense.

Hey, your engines may run forever like this. And it may not bother you. But the blowby on my engine sure bothered me and I got it fixed.

[luckylawnboy]

lets talk about getting my engine up to power. I am getting ready to go to the shop and play with the governor. hopefully it will fix it. If not, hell its under warrenty, so I will take it back. I am glad I didn't buy it from Alamia now. More likley to get my dealer to take care of it for me.

[John DiMartino]

Richard,I feel air filter maintance is just as important as oil and filter changes,and will wear out a set of rings as fast,if not faster than not changing the oil.Once past the filter,dirt gets in the oil,making it a grinding compound,even new oil quickly becomes contaminated with high silicon levels and wears itself out from the rings down.

[luckylawnboy]

Well I adjusted the bracket that holds the throttle cable. WOW Now I get about 3870 rpms and about 3700 with the blades on. It was pouring rain all day so I did not get to use it. I still feel that the governor is not working properly just because it revs, doesn't mean it will stay there.
Thanks for all the information guys.

[Richard Martin]

John DiMartino wrote:

<b><i>Richard,I feel air filter maintance is just as important as oil and filter changes,and will wear out a set of rings as fast,if not faster than not changing the oil.</b></i>

I agree. When you just do things automatically sometimes you forget that others might not which is why I didn't dwell on the filter changing.

I even tried to find a Donaldsen filter for my Kawasakis but I have had no luck so far.

I have confidence in the air filters on my 12.5 and 14 but the filter on my new 17 gives me the Willies.

luckylawnboy wrote:

<b><i>Now I get about 3870 rpms and about 3700 with the blades on. </b></i>

Be carefull with those RPMs. I don't know the exact reason Kawasaki puts a top recommended limit of 3600 rpm of their engines but I suspect it has something to do with the oil pumps ability to supply oil at higher rpm. If you intend to run these rpms I would put Mobil 1 oil in it and a oil additive that contains PTFE.

[cabrone]

Richard, one last comment on the subject of overheating the air cooled engines,if you are not supposed "over idle" them why do all these generator manufacturers put them on their generators? The better generators have an automatic switch that lets them idle all day and their rpms raise when you need more juice.By the way,luckylawnboy there is also another good source of engines is enginewharehouse.com ran by a guy named Roy Padgett.Alot of times he has specials on scratch and dents.

[Richard Martin]

Cabrone wrote:

<b><i>Richard, one last comment on the subject of verheating the air cooled engines,if you are not supposed "over idle" them why do all these generator manufacturers put them on their generators? The better generators have an automatic switch that lets them idle all day and their rpms raise when you need more juice</b></i>

And all of the better generators use Honda engines, not Kawasaki. Honda apparently has a better idle cooling system.

[cabrone]

I guess!!! Oh yea I forgot I have seen a few B&S vanguards on generators, I guess they have a superior cooling system also!

[geogunn]

I agree that air filter maintainance is extremly important in the life of the motors we're talking about here.

but I need to as the question: "how, does the dirt from bypassing a dirty air filter get into the oil?"

I hope you don't tell me that it simply bypasses the rings to get into the oil. If you do, how does that make any sense?

another question is "where does the silicone come from?"

as far as Im concerned, the best reason to stay on top of air filter maintainance is that the motor won't run with out a carb and I was told one time that on my KAW 14 they were not rebuildable and the replacements were about $250!


BTY, richard, can I idle my KAW 14 for periods of time with no ill effects?

thanks,

GEO

[Richard Martin]

geogunn asked a bunch of questions and here are <i>my</i> answers:

There is always a small amount of blowby even in a brand new engine. I believe this is why oil gets dark. Why is there blowby? Because there in not a perfect seal between the rings and the cylinder walls, there is a ring end gap (provided for expansion and contraction of the cylinder and rings), there is not a perfect seal between the rings and the piston and there is not a perfect seal between the valve stem and the valve guide. All of these areas leak very small amounts of raw fuel/air on the compression stroke and they leak small amounts of exhaust gases on the exhaust stroke.

The silicon gets into the oil because the dirt that in the oil as a result of blowby contains quartz or as it is better known sand. Sand contains silica <sp> or in a refined state the substance known as silicon. Beleive it or not silica is a hazardous substance as if breathed in suffcient quantities over a long period of time can cause a lung disease call Silicosis. Can a lawn care professional get Silicosis? Probably if you work in sandy conditions for long enough.

Can you idle your Kaw for periods of time without damaging it? Since there is so much controversy around this question I will contact Kawasaki and ask them.

[Richard Martin]

Okay, I called Kawasaki's contact service person for Maryland and here's what he said.

The Kawasaki air cooled engine does heat up when idleing however it is perfectly safe to idle the engine for periods up to 1 hour. Beyond this time damage could occur depending on outside air temperature. He also said that debris in the cooling fins can affect the engines ability to cool particuarly in the cylinder head area which is where the highest heat is normally found. The cylinder head area operates at around 400 degrees while the rest of the cylinder is around 325 degrees. Debris in the cooling head area can reduce the amount of idleing time required before engine damage occurs.

While I had him on the phone I asked about using synthetic oils. He said Kawasaki's stance on this issue is "Don't use them".

[geogunn]

you've done some good work on this.

I agree that there is some "blow by" at the cylinder wall piston ring contact. this is also true in every piston engine that has ever been made in the world because the "perfect" seal has not yet been made.

Does the blow by routinely allow "dirt" (or "sand") to get past the rings? I don't know about this on a normal engine in good condition. I do agree that the presence of dirt and sand in the cylinder will prematurely wear the rings and cylinder wall.

I have to wonder about the KAW persons response to the question regarding idling of the engine. at idle speed versus top rpm (say 3600), what is the real difference in ambient cooling ability of the surrounding atmosphere? no one has mentioned the flywheel cooling fan that cools the engine by moving air down and under the shroud past the cylinder.

there aint no way that anybody can make the case that an air cooled engine can be hurt by idling but that it's OK to run the same engine flat out, one , two or three miles per hour, in first gear all day long! unless...the flywheel fan does most of (or virtually all of) the cooling.

if that's the case then an engine could be left running full tilt boogie, in neutral, sitting still all day with no problems.:)

I say the threat to overheating one of these things is when leaves and crap blow up around the motor and close off the flywheel fan opening. when mulching I have to clear mine every few minutes.

about the "silicon" in the oil, uh...well, "SILICONE" is a man made product that is a component of many formulations that has nothing to do with "SILICA".

"silica" is a term used for predominantly quartzitic fine grained sand. there can also be appreciable fractions of orthoclase and plagioclase feldspars in the "silica sand" that we are all probably familiar with (IE: pool filter sand, sand blasting sand).

"silicosis" is associated with breathing silica dust. hence, a hazardous occupation for those that perform sand blasting and hard rock drilling.

the first cause and effect relationship of silica and the respiratory disease, silicosis was determined as a result the drilling for underground nuclear tests in the western test areas.

and now you know the rest of the story. (apologias to MR. HARVEY);)

GEO

[osc]

Actually, silicon is a naturally occurring element. Silicone is different but there is a relationship which I can't really remember, I think it is basically polymerized silicon. There is a relationship between silica, silicon and silicone. The names should give you a clue that they are related. As far as being manmade, I like to say man-reformulated because let's face it, man doesn't make anything from scratch, we just fabricate what nature gives us. Even manmade elements were molded from something that we didn't make.
By the way, why does everyone dog the Briggs Vanguard? It's made in Japan and a darn good engine. I have 2 Kaw 17's and I think it is Kaw's worst engine.

[Getmow]

Richard, Thank you for all the information. You have gone above and beyond the call on this one.

[Richard Martin]

geogunn wrote:

<b><i>Does the blow by routinely allow "dirt" (or "sand") to get past the rings?</b></i>

If the contaminates are getting past the airfilter then they can be present in the blowby. Remember, we are talking about particles that are very small in size.

<b><i>there aint no way that anybody can make the case that an air cooled engine can be hurt by idling but that it's OK to run the same engine flat out, one , two or three miles per hour, in first gear all day long! unless...the flywheel fan does most of (or virtually all of) the cooling.</b></i>

You are correct. The fan does virtually all of the cooling. The temps go up when the engine is idleing because the amount of air circulating around the engine is greatly decreased. To an idea of how much air the fan moves start your engine and let it run at an idle. Place your hand near the bottom of the engine and feel how much air is blowing out. Then wind the engine up to 3600 rpm and do the same thing. You will feel a huge difference. The debris that the man from Kawasaki was talking about is debris that gets caught between and over the cooling fins. This debris can be things like leaf chips, grass clippings or a mouse nest. This is why part of the factory recommended maintenance is to remove the shrouding every 300 hours or 1 year (whichever occurs first) and clean the fins out.

[geogunn]

OSC--thanks for the comment regarding silicon and your attempt at correction, but if you reread my post, I think you will see your correction is baseless.

I didn't deem it necessary to take the discussion back to a periodic chart elemental level. also given the space available and forum format, no need to disclose that man doesn't "make anything" that we only "reformulate". ;)

GEO