The ideal plow truck....

[SlimJim Z71]

If you were going to buy a NEW pickup to plow and salt with, what would it be and how would you equip it? I may be getting a new truck to plow with... and basically, I need some advice, pros and cons, etc.http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/sp/stanico.gif

-Tim

[cat320]

Well i'm a chevy man i would get the new 2500HD which is 9,200LB gvw and equip it with a duramax diesel allison 5 spd auto reg. cab power everything put timbrean load bosters on front and rear slide in smith electric spreader with a diamond plow and I would put a whelen light bar with 10 strobe heads ally,and rear work lights.But if i was going to put a sander on it i would go with a dump for the ease of cleaning and weight it will carry.

[SLC1]

Cat320, I just ordered my 2500HD yesterday, they are putting the plow on the truck (8.5 Fisher Straight) tomorrow and I will be picking it up on Wed. I hope, I will let you know how it does.

[GeoffDiamond]

If it had to be a pick up:

F 350
4X4 Plow Prep
7.3 Power Stroke
Auto
AUX

Swenson Spreader ( stainless or regular is up to you)
8.5' Fisher v-plow


BTW I am a Ford Man, and have several ford trucks from a ranger to an L 9000

Geoff

[SlimJim Z71]

I am a Chevy guy too... but my neighbor just bought a new F250 Reg. cab long bed, and had a Western 7'6" Pro plow put on it. The front end doesn't drop more than an inch when he lifts that plow up... I was impressed.http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/sp/stanico.gif

-Tim

[cat320]

SLC1 please let me know how you like it must be a gas engine if your getting of the lot would like to know how the new engines are,I still prefere diesel.

SlimJimZ71 the fors has a mono beam axel in the front not like the chevy tortion bar that is why it doesn't drop as much but with the timbrem load bosters it will be the same as the ford.

The new chevy truck's look great and have alot more than my '97 but the allison 5 spd will be great plus you can get a pto with it even in the pick ups.

[John DiMartino]

I am partial to GM,but if it were a plow truck,I would seriously consider a Dodge.Dodge will not sag at all with its best in a pickup 5200GVWR front axle,the Dana 60 is the best front end now available for plowing.Dodge also turns on a dime and gives back change,very manueverable,much better than GM or Ford.A GM 2500HD has more payload,but its in the rear,we hang plows on the front,so its still going to sag out if you have the diesel or big block.If it were your only truck Id live with the sag and buy a GM,base 6.0 is very strong.I wouldnt buy a Ford,only because they are difficult to service and havent had good luck with them,others have had great luck-I just know you should buy a 2500HD as the minimum,and get plow prep,trailer tow and aux battery if you buy one.The plow is easy-get a Fisher EZV 8.5. Strong,and easy to get parts for.Do not buy a diesel if its parked to far from power,they need to be plugged in when it gets below 0.,I plug in at 25 and below,they just start and run so much better that way.

[John Allin]

Dodge 3/4 ton
Boss 8'2" Vee

(from experience... don't put a 9'2" Vee on a 3/4 ton)

[JD PLOWER]

Black F-350 4X4 auto Reg. cab 8-6"Fisher v-plow 2yd ss sander. Diesel



[Edited by JD PLOWER on 11-26-2000 at 10:50 PM]

[n y snow pros]

We do only commercial work and i like Chevys,but here is my pick
Ford F-550 cab & chassis
permentenly mounted stainless low pro style 4.5 yard Down Eastern spreader
hydaulically driven no pony motors
power stroke
automatic
high intensity strobes in the flasher assemblies
9.2 Boss v-plow
and most important a qualified driver(they are hard to come by)

[landscaper3]

Mitsubishi Fuso with a 9foot V-Plow and dump body with a 3yard sander, these things can turn around on a dime! Diesel of course. Runner up is my 1997 Ford F-350 Powerstroke diesel with performance enhancements pulling almost 700lbs torque and boy can she move snow!!!!!

[landscaper3]

OOPS 603lbs I was looking at the wrong dyno chart.

[DaveO]

Slim,

GOT IT. '01 Dodge 2500 SB QC diesel. Like John said, turns on a dime, even with quad cab. 5200lbs front axle, with plow prep. HD everything. Now I just need that Fisher V plow.

And SLIM BTW....My OLD 83 F150 with plow prep drops 3/4" when you pick up my Fisher blade with foil. Guess they made the 1/2 tons HD back then. Your just used to those SOFT Chevies...haha. Just bustin on ya.


Dave

[Guido]

Drives and operates itself when I've been behind the wheel for 2 days straight and want to get some sleep! It also makes me hot choclate!!

but seriously...
Good luck with your decesion!

[Lazer]

Plow with a DODGE Diesel?

We have the 7th transmission in our 1996 right now. The warranty is about up and it is now sold.

Every time we bring it in for trans service, it seems like that transmission is on back-order.

Right now the dealership has 11 diesels (mostly plow trucks) waiting for transmissions.

It seems the guys with the V-8 gas have had good luck (all plow in low range) but there is NO WAY I'd every buy a Dodge diesel for plowing.

[Lazer]

Oh yeah,

Chrysler's inferior products appear to have caught up with them:

Chrysler is worth about HALF what it was a year ago.

One of the reasons for the company's demise: WARRANTY repairs radically exceeding industry standards.

The numbers don't lie: They build products inferior to their competitors.

[thelawnguy]

Id replace my 95 Dodge HD 3/4 with another one in a heartbeat, only get a Fisher V instead of the straight I have now.

Seven trannies in the same truck, I suspect a transfer case problem (misaligned casting in the case or input shaft) is putting undue stress on the tranny. Or someone isnt flushing the coolers when they changed the tranny. Or a leaking tans cooler is allowing coolant to enter the hydraulic system. Or a bad valve body is being swapped into a good transmission. Maybe driver error. If it was my truck, Id be highly suspect after the second failure. The trans shop on the corner (independent) told me the Dodge truck trannys dont fail any more often than any other mfr. From my experiences I would tend to believe him.

[Rooster]

Lazer,

I talked to a Dodge mechanic, he told me if I bought a new Dodge truck to plow with, only buy a 1ton, and always plow in low gear in 4-low. If not the transmission would be torn out from under it!

I have a 1984 3/4 ton Dodge now, being in Kansas we don't get much snow any more, just wish most of the time.

Dodge advertizing seems to work, the most new truck in this area are Dodge's (finally have a good looking exterior and interior) never have seen a Dodge diesel, just Ford diesels.

Any way thanks for the info on Dodge diesel.

[Alan]

I've given up on finding an "ideal" truck from the factory, so I'm going to start looking for the right pieces to build one.

If I can pull this off it just might make as close to a pefect rig as can be had.

I want to start with GM, cheap and interchangeable parts. Clip the frame to end up with a short wheelbase, as if it was a short bed.

Axles off a 1 ton single wheel setup. 350 with a few tricks to make it pull at low revs, TH 400 tranny, NP203 full time transfer case (I think that's the right numbers), 4.10 gears, posi rear.

Central hydraulics off a clutch pump, Vee plow up front, pull plow on the back, both of them with compensating downpressure like Sno-Way has. Vee box, shorter and wider than most, about 1 1/2 yd capacity, but with auger feeds rather than drag chain. The box would be split crossways into two compartments so I could load either one material in both parts or split the load, half mix, half Magic salt (we have several accoutns that are part paved, part gravel and prefer mix on the gravel portions). A selector valve would let me choose which hopper to draw material from using only the one spreader control console. The pull plow would lift high enough to let me spread with it in place.

Good seats, heated mirrors and power windows (I like to plow with my windows down, gets around that snow/water/salt film that is always on the windows). Plenty of work lights, good flasher system.

I know this will take a whole boatload of time and a couple of dinghies full of money, but I think it would make a superb snow fighter and cost way less than a new truck, as well as being easy to work on (no computers).

[SlimJim Z71]

I have to admit... I like all of the "Big 3". Dodge makes a great looking truck. I don't know a whole lot about their durability (other than the stuff I've "HEARD"), but I wasn't impressed when I drove one. It didn't feel very nimble, but yes it does turn very well.

Fords (Superduty's) are some serious trucks, but I've heard of numerous problems with the Powerstroke.

Now the GM's... the new HD's look to be the king of the hill, but they havn't been out very long. The Duramax/Allison combo sounds like the cat's meow, but I'm a little leary about it just cause it hasn't been out very long. Also... I've heard that the waiting list for a Duramax is longer than the Presidential election is taking.

Hmmmmm.... what to do.

-Timhttp://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/sp/stanico.gif

[thelawnguy]

"It didn't feel very nimble, but yes it does turn very well."

The Dodge straight front axle takes a little getting used to the feel, kinda like an old car from the 40s, but its essentially indestructible.

[GeoffDiamond]

I will say, there are some problems with the power strokes, but no engine or truck is perfect. If you read internet forums, relating to powerstroke maintmance and problems, you are going to read about problems with power stokes, it's that simple. Only I am willing to bet that for every one perosn that complains about a problem with there diesel, there are 100 others that have no problems.

My self, I never plowed with a diesel to the new 99s came out with the new trans. I have had no problems with anyone of these trucks, all I do is the follow the maintmance plan, and I have left the truck stock. One PSD has 70K on it and no problems yet.

I think the new chevy has some great features, however I am not sure if I would buy something 1st year out. I did it with Ford, and never had any major recalls, few minor things.

Geoff

[Lazer]

lawnguy,

You're probably exactly right about some other problem.

My deal is I'm not qualified to solve that problem. I AM in the position to write a check for a Ford or GM the next time around.

Now, frankly our newer Dodge GAS trucks have been fine. (Plow in low-range) In fact our older Dodges are even better. I still have a 1988 with over 200K + 12 years of snowplowing: factory transmission.

[DaveO]

Lazer,

Sorry to hear you had so many probs with the Dodge tranny. In the past I had decided against a Dodge diesel because of the many complaints I had heard. After a lot of research, and input from people like Bill(lawn guy), and John DiMartino, I finally bought an '01 diesel. Apparently Dodge feels the tranny is stronger, since they upped the HP/torque to the same as the 5spd. Love the truck.

Since you have had these problems, what exactly were the failures. Did the trans slip, or make noise, or loose gears?? I have heard most complaints from the 94-96 years, and know that some things were changed since then. I guess it depends on WHO you talk to. The local tranny shop here claims the Ford diesel tranny's up till the SD's were the worst, maybe because there are more of them worked??

Anyway, You have a "stroke" now right?? Good luck with it, they are great trucks too, almost bought one. So far I have 20K on my Ram, towed my bikes to the track all summer, and had good luck. The trans shifts firm/quick and hope it STAYS that way. Only time will tell, but if the Trans are still weak, I know who makes the parts to beef it up. The power and milage are awesome, but it won't get plowed till next year....unless we get a LOT of snow.

Dave

[jrblawncare]

As an owner of 94 3/4 ton Dodge {360} gas w 100,000 miles on it,I have had no major problems with it.The Trans.has acted up from time to time...It would stick in lower grears and not shift up when it should.This truck has never plowed until this year{sounds like I better use 4 low when I do}This truck has done alot of towing{22ft. boat & landscape trailer}I did have the truck in for service a few months back and had a power flush done on the trans.since then I have had no more shifting ploblems.......all in all its been a great truck and the best part about it now is I own it...payments have been over with for about 2 years.JOHN

[John DiMartino]

I had a 96 Dodge diesel,and i plowed commecially,for 2 yrs with it,sometimes very hard too.I never used low range,and i had the power turned up to over 256hp/650 ft lbs at the wheels.I never had one bit of trouble with it.As much as these trannys are getting bashed here,they are much stronger than any auto trans in a pickup,up til the new allison just came out.Im not saying this is the total fix for all the problems,but simply not using park will fix almost all the failures with theses,they do not circulate fluid in park,so after you've been pushing and throw it in park,cooler flow stops and the trans overheats even more.I always did this,as recommended by a friend-who has 3 dodges,2 are diesels,one V10.They all have over 100K,all are 94 and newer,all pull 20 ft trailers all summer with 2 suburban turbns on them,a wb.They trannys are original in all of them,and they beat the daylights out if them plowing.If your dodge says to check the fluid in N,then it needs to be left in N when you let it idle.

[Edited by John DiMartino on 11-27-2000 at 01:28 PM]

[Dockboy]

SlimJim,

I have a 2000 F250 SD Powerstroke. I had F550 front springs installed on the truck. It raised the front end 1 3/4" and gave it a front axle gvw of 6,600 lb.. I just installed a 8 1/2 Western MVP "V" plow (880 lb.). When I lift the plow, the truck only lowers 1/2". Haven't plowed yet so I can't give an opinion there.

Greg

[John DiMartino]

Dockboy,the F550 uses the strong Dana 60 front axle,like the one in Dodge 2500&3500.The F250SD uses the weaker Dana 50.Since you didnt change the axle,you still have a 4700 front GVWR.The axle is the weak point of your F250-not the springs.I am surprised you had a sagging problem,every F250 I see seems to hold a plow well,height wise,even the SD 250&350 excab diesel,which is overweight with a plow,still doesnt even sag at all.Hows the ride with 550 springs?

[SlimJim Z71]

Anyone running an F250 Reg Cab Powerstroke with a Western MVP on the front??? This is the one I'm thinking about most...

-Tim

[Lazer]

Around here that is the single most popular setup for a new snowplow truck.

[GeoffDiamond]

I don't own a 250 SD with a Power Stroke, However I know someone who does.

Truck Specs:

F 250 XL Regualar Cab
4x4
Auto
7.3 w/aux
Plow Prep
XL Decor group.
8.5' Fisher V-plow (almost the exact same thing as the western MVP).

Also has a insert body w/ insert body spreader. The guy also has an F 350 with the exact same set up. Had to add a second truck this year, used the F 250 last year.

He likes plowing with the F 250 no problems, with front end drop. However if he puts more than 1.5 yards in the inser body he is overloaded.

My Suggestion: If your going to get a F 250, spend the extra 1K for the F 350. F 250 Xl to F 350 XL, the price difference is only 1K.

For that extra 1K you are set up for a v-box, or an inser bed spreader system. The F 250 can spread but you will be overloaded compared the the F 350.

I used to run all F 250 HD pick ups, till 99. I went to the F 350 because it was only a little more, Like i said under 1K. For the extra money, you get a truck that is set up better for plowing, and the ablity to add a v-box if you had too.

I will tell a little story:

Back in 97 My F 350 rack body got T-boned by a guy in a GMC 3500 with a v-plow in the v setting. Anyways I think the F 350 spent 4 weeks in the body shop. So we removed the spreader contolls, took the spreader out with the extended spinner. Now before I go any further, I will add another detail. In 97 I needed another plow truck, so I leased a 97 F 250 HD with 9' Diamond plow. What did we do, I took 3 8X8s and 3 4X4s and put them in the bed of the lease truck, put the V-box on the 8X8. Then we put 3 yards on the 97 F 250 HD, with the 9' Diamond plow. The spinner was almost on the ground we were lucky we didn't break it. With that truck, we plowed first than sanded. If you want to talk about overload, that F 250 HD was overloaded to no end, 9' Plow, 3 Yards of sand. If ya think Ford trucks are weak, I think I proved ya wrong. We ran that truck in 2 storms that way. When the lease ran out, in the fall of 99 we turned the truck in, and kept the 9' Diamond plow.

However I don't recomend this stunt with the F 250 HD. I was the guy that drove the truck by the way. Do not try this stunt at home, It is not safe.

Geoff

[Edited by GeoffDiamond on 11-28-2000 at 01:25 AM]

[Dockboy]

John,

My truck was sagging before the plow was installed. I had the springs replaced under warranty and since the 550 or "X" springs as they are called, were the same cost, I had the dealer replace them with the heavier ones. I like the look of the truck much better, it's almost level. The ride is MUCH better. It's a little firmer but the front end doesn't bounce anymore on a washboard road.

SlimJim,

Just for your info, my F250 SD PSD is a supercab with an 8' bed.

Greg

[SlimJim Z71]

I would definately like an extended cab truck, but I'm having enough trouble getting used to the length of my extended cab short-bed. Although... if all goes as planned, I would like to do more commercial accounts in the future rather than driveways (which is what I'm doing now.)

-Tim

[landscaper3]

(2) 1997 Ford Powerstroke F-350 with 8foot plows and 8 foot sanders. Never needed spring update never heard anyone with F-350 needing them, did you have week springs?

[GeoffDiamond]

If you go extended cab, you can't have the powerstroke and plow prep package. I would go regular cab, 8' bed.

Geoff

[Dockboy]

SlimJim,

Here is the full specs of my truck for your info.

Like I said, I haven't plowed yet, but I'll let you know after the first snow :)

2000 F250 SD XLT Supercab
7.3l Powerstroke
4X4 Off-Road
Auto
3.73 Rear
Man. Hubs
54hp./105ft/lbs Diablo Chip
Banks Transcommand
F550 Front springs
4" Rear blocks (instead of 2")
Western MVP Plow

And by the way, I LOVE MY TRUCK :D

I own a Masonry business and work my truck very hard. I tow a 9,500lb. skid steer trailer 3-4 times a week and I barely know it's there. Bought the truck in Aug. and have over 12,000 mi. on it already with no problems at all (except for the front spring sag). I didn't like the stock shifting of the auto trans., but love it after adding the chip and transcommand. It shifts sooner and firmer now.

Greg

[SlimJim Z71]

That's one thing I love about my truck too. I added a Hypertech Power Programmer III, which allows for altered shift points as well as firmer shifts. It's not a shift kit by any means, but it's nice.

-Tim

[landscaper3]

On your chip figures Dockboy are they dyno numbers or caculated numbers. One of our 97 F350 P.S.D on dyno made a whopping 78RWHP improvement and tourque jumped to over 207LBS at rear wheel. Our chip was the U.S gear, we have a free flow filter and mandrel pipe. Boy didnt your chip make that truck shift so much firmer gotta love those PCM Chips.

[Dockboy]

Brian,

Haven't dynoed the truck. Those are the published numbers for the chip. Diablo sells a 54hp, 78hp. and 90hp. chip. I have talked to guys who have been on dyno's and most of them say they don't quite get the published hp and torque gains.

Greg

[site]

Mitsubishi FG 4x4 with 9 foot Fisher. Does great going forward but slooow in reverse. On tight lots I move much faster with a 3/4 ton pickup and 8' plow. Fords dont seem to break as often as Chevys in my experience. When it comes to employees all they want is the one with the cd player nothing else matters. too bad its mine.

[DYNA PLOW]

slimjim, if your going to by a real truck and ditch the pretty boy truck why in the world would you consider a 3/4 ton. as was stated a 1 ton is the way to go. the only real truck made is a FORD.although chevy finaly got their head out of their %ss and is building a hd version of their pretty boy trucks. FORD MAN FORD, F350 how many people have to tell ya...
dan

[snow]

Here are my picts;
for a municipal plow truck (upstate)-
an oshkosh mpt w/ 4 wheel steer,allison auto tranny, 10'dump body with under tailgate spreader, a one way and a rh wing

large truck;
a 6 wheel dump , central hydraulics, a wic3 strobe system from nova, a pa plow, and an undertailgate spreader, auto tranny ,diesel.

my ideal truck;
a 350 diesel, supercab, 6.5' bed, 8.5'fisher v plow, stainless steel 6.5'spreader. (or regular cab 8'bed and 8'sander).

bryan

[TLS]

IDEAL PLOW TRUCK (for me)

'75 to '89 Chevy Blazer.
Add Dana 60's or equivilent front and back.
3/4 or 1T springs.
Engineer a 4 Wheel Steering system!!!(very important)
Remove cap and seal off opening.
One pallet of salt. Tailgate spreader.
350, TH400, NP203 4.56:1's
Pull plow.
Fisher V 8.5 or Boss V 8.2

This has always been my Fathers' and I's dream truck. It would turn on a penny and give change. These trucks are a dime a dozen but you will be taking off the only rust free part (cap)!!

With the maneuverability, dont bother backing up, just turn around and plow back where you came from!

[cowboy]

alright know it said new truck but:

59-60 F250 with original 4 wheel drive,completely restored
223 I-6 or 292 V8-doesn't really matter
4 speed manual
Western MVP V-Plow

I bet this truck would be way more reliable than any 88+ truck, and anything that went wrong you can fix, that is what I love about my 81 Chevy can fix everything with same three size sockets and some duct tape

-Adam

[BRL]

Ahhh Duct Tape......

[landscaper3]

LOL!!!

[Turfclippings]

any pros or cons on blizzard plows.

[slplow]

i have a 96 Dodge Ram with 65,000 miles. Never had a problem with the transmission. I lost a fuel pump once. Would not recommend any GMs. I have had more problems with my 97 GMC than I could write on this page and I only have 30,000 miles on it.

[John DiMartino]

Greg,you didnt say you had diesel,excab and a V plow.You are overweight by a good size margin,no wonder you had a sagging problem.You are fortunate that Ford warranteed perfectly good springs,for bigger ones.If your truck had the plow prep pkg(N/A on diesel with excab),it would've held it fine.All you Ford lovers out there,complain to Ford-all you want is them to beef up there (so called,super duty) truck to the same level as Dodge.They are to cheap to put the Dana 60 front axle in the 250/350.This is unfortunate for Ford guys that want this combo.If you do it anyway like greg has,you will suffer rapid ball joint and tie rod wear,steering wander,and rapid front brake wear.In addition,although this isnt likely,it is possible,in an accident-you would be uninsured by your policy-mine clearly states that overloaded vehicles are not covered,if it is overloaded you pay.Fines and tickets are $ too,although that is very unlikely,it is possible and I think its Fords fault.For how much that truck costs,any 3/4HD or1 ton should be able to take a plow-no matter what-Fords cant with diesel/excab.It is unacceptable to me that Ford fit such a weak axle under that (Super duty) truck,and sell it that way.Its not like they have to adapt anything-they already have the Dana 60 in the 450/550.How hard would it be to put it under the 250/350?I bet its not hard at all.

[Dockboy]

John,

I had the springs replaced BEFORE the plow was installed. The sag was not from the plow, but from defective springs.

I have 2 friends with 99 (first year) F250 Supercab PSD Superduties, 1 with a 8 1/2 Western and the other with a 8' Fisher. Neither one of them has had any problems with their front ends.

I'm in an area (North East, MD) that doesn't receive a tremendous amount of snow. On avg. I'd say 5-8 storms. So I don't plan on doing an extreme amount of plowing.

Thanks for your thoughts and concerns though. I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this forum.

Greg

[ProSeasons]

Ideal truck for fun would be....Dodge 1 ton chassis and axles (Dana 60 front and Dana 80 hybrid rear.Cummins diesel married to the new Allison tranny.Cargo Coil front springs and Rancho 9000 shocks turned all the way to 5.Quad Cab.Long bed.The wheelbase helps balance the plow weight better.4WD(of course).Trailer and camper prep groups.A Ford Dually 01 body. All that behind a big Fisher EZV and a Snowman out back. Oh yeah,a cup holder too.

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by Dockboy
John,

I had the springs replaced BEFORE the plow was installed. The sag was not from the plow, but from defective springs.
Greg

Could the problem have been the extra 2 inch blocks in the rear???

[Dockboy]

Bill,

No. I installed the 4" blocks after the 550 springs were installed to level the truck. After the new front springs were installed, the front end was about 3/4" higher than the rear with the stock 2" blocks.

Just for info, the F550 or "X" springs are actually 1 grade higher than the springs installed on a F250 Reg. cab PSD with the snow plow option. There are 5 front spring grades avail for the 250-550 Superduties. 1- 250/gas, 2- 250/PSD, 3-350/PSD, 4- 250-350/PSD w/snow, 5- 450-550/PSD.

Now you can't neccesarilly factory order all of these springs on a 250, but they all fit and are all the same cost.

Greg

[Dockboy]

This thread from a Ford forum may help those with Superduties.

http://forums.ford-diesel.com:8080/ubb/Forum15/HTML/002773.html

Greg

[John Allin]

Turfclippings...

Do a search on Blizzard and you'll find that this was brought up a couple times on this forum.

Or start another thread.... you'll get lots of opinions as some of us have seen them up close and have gone over them with a fine tooth comb......

[Lazer]

IDEAL PLOW TRUCK:

Oshkosh MPT 158" WB --FOUR WHEEL STEER--
35' turning radius - tight as a shortbox pick-up.
310hp Cummins
5 speed Alison automatic.
18,000lb front axle (enough even for a V-Plow!)
23,000lb rear axle.
Only 9' tall - My F350 is 8'.

Now THAT's a plow truck!

(~course your initials have to be JAA to afford one, but that's for another post.)

[John DiMartino]

Lazer-that is a sweet plow truck,they had similar oshkosh's at the airport here.They have roll-over cone plows though.