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View Full Version : what organic to use as starter for a newly seeded lawn


stevedug
04-08-2004, 11:20 AM
our 30,000 sq ft lawn was just seeded with turf fescue. no starter fertilizer was put down. because it was seeded fairly late for middle tn, i need it to germinate and get some roots down quickly to survive the summer. i had planned on using a basic non-organic starter fertilizer, but am curious about maybe using an organic. are alfalfa pellets spread at the proper rate the thing to use? can both be spread or are they mutually exclusive.

i plan on going with an organic program long term because i'd like to improve my soil long term and i hate dealing with drop spreader rates for synthetics.

bioman
04-08-2004, 02:01 PM
Stevedug,

You can call me at 888-224-8275. Need to ask you some questions before I can give you an answer.


Ron AKA
BIOMAN

TurfProSTL
04-08-2004, 11:29 PM
I've had good results with composted chicken manure. The one I used was bagged 4-3-2 analysis and contained alot of calcium.

jkelton
04-09-2004, 12:23 AM
Steve,
First off - I see you are from the best place on earth (Lascassas). Secondly, give me a call or check out my website (www.terrascapemulch.com). We offer a topdressing service in which we apply about 1/3~1/2" of extremely high quality compost to your turf area. Most of the time, we inject turf seed at the same time. I have had very good results from the jobs I did last fall. I have some before/after pictures I would love to show you.

In fact, I did a job in Lascassas this past Tuesday on a new lawn installation. Unfortunately, there is no irrigation and I do not have high hopes that the seed will germinate properly. But, the homeowner is aware that it is extremely late for seeding - I think he just wanted to get some organics back into his soil.

Dchall_San_Antonio
04-09-2004, 11:23 AM
I would apply compost (chicken is fine assuming it is fully composted) along with alfalfa pellets (because it is cheap).

As much as I like corn meal, bor the best germination, stay away from all corn products on new seeds.

bioman
04-09-2004, 02:07 PM
Guys,

To get organic programs to be 100% effected you have to know the soil pH, cec, organic matter, and nutrient levels. This is why so many people fail using a 100% organic program. My company will not set up a new distriutor or dealer without taking four soil samples from the area to analyse. At that point we begin to work up a program. Even once a program is written it might need to be treaked for different condition in a yard.


Thanks,

Bioman

ChickensDoo
04-10-2004, 01:59 PM
Bioman you are making this a website to sell your products and or services.
you can take out advertisements to do so. This gentlemens question was whats the best method for starter fertility, synthetic or organic.
your beginning to piss me off with your snake oil approach to selling your products. and i bet i am not the only one. i am just brash enough to say so.
yes a soil sample is always a good place to start. how about in the interem applying a product with a 1-1-1 ratio or high p & k to get the seed started ? It will be a non pint by the time the soil sample comes back. Fescue is a cool season plant. In addition addressing the soil with organic matter will be more benificial this fall when i guarantee he will have to reseed anyway.
Or do you have a snake oil that will guarantee spring seedings?
Ron please keep this as a forum where we can all share idea's and experiences. not a sales tool for your specific products ok?

bioman
04-10-2004, 05:49 PM
chickendoo

I am a paying sponsor of this site. If you would check out the new sponsors announcement area you would know that. So I am not using a snake oil approach to sell my products or my program. I would be very happy to help any one out on this site without selling them anything. You are a good example of why organic programs do not work. You need a soil sample to start, and they are turned around in less than 7 days. My post on here are both educational, and based on my experience.

ChickensDoo
04-10-2004, 09:14 PM
New Member

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Posts: 14
chickendoo

I am a paying sponsor of this site. If you would check out the new sponsors announcement area you would know that. So I am not using a snake oil approach to sell my products or my program. I would be very happy to help any one out on this site without selling them anything. You are a good example of why organic programs do not work. You need a soil sample to start, and they are turned around in less than 7 days. My post on here are both educational, and based on my experience.
Oh Bioman.........
reguardless of paying for space, and i am all for commerce, i know a snake oil salesman when i see one. If i am a good example of why organic programs do not work then i am fooling thousands of people across the country. ( golly gee! maybe ineed to examine my career path) or take one of your classes.
But instead I will Simply Say " your claims of a lawn turn around in 7 days" are all i need to know. Best of luck to you. and the soil sample is always sound advice, after that point we shall agree to disagree.

ChickensDoo
04-10-2004, 09:47 PM
p.s bioman, i checked out the website. Circle one international ring any bells for you? or do you manufacture what you sell?

Best of Luck...For those seeking alternative products, you may wish to check out www.organic approach.com I am not a part of the company, but i feel you will get sound advice there.

stevedug
04-11-2004, 10:40 AM
well, i sure did not mean to start an argument between folks. i went ahead and dumped 800 lbs of alfalfa pellets on my lawn. with a forecast of rain for the next few days, hopefully, it will start to dissolve and my lawn can get off to a good start. i know that its just a crapshoot with seed this late in the spring, but i had to seed it at this time.

now, on the the flower beds. got 5 yrds of compost from the compost farm coming for that. some sand, some mills mix, and some epson salts and my roses will be happy!

bioman
04-11-2004, 11:05 AM
chickendoo

if you had read my post I said soil samples are turned around in7 days not yards. With organics depending on the conditions you start out with will determined how long it takes to turn a yard around. Yes, I do make some of the products I sell along with a company out in Texas. It is not snake oil, and I wish the few of you who do not have a good understanding of organic, and do not know me from the man in the moon would stop posting false information about me. I would never get on a website and start saying things about a person or a company I did not know. My company is not a member of any web-ring, and when my web site is complete you will be able to get ample information from it. So, come on people know the person or the company before you start slamming it CHICKENDOO, your name fits you well.

Yes stevedug your roses will be very happy, you could also add a micro into your mix which will help prevent any fungus. If the seeds do germinate and start to grow. To get a quick root system use a kelp based product with micros.

Thanks,

Ric
04-11-2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by ChickensDoo
Bioman
...your beginning to piss me off with your snake oil approach to selling your products. and i bet i am not the only one. i am just brash enough to say so....


I second the motion. All in Favor say AYE.

Norm Al
04-11-2004, 06:12 PM
bioman comes across a little like hes done some serious time in vietnam,,,,thats for sure!

ChickensDoo
04-11-2004, 11:33 PM
Hey folks, no fighting. Just a clear failure to communicate. objective disagreements are why this forum exsists.

My Father used to have a couple of sayings that seem apropot for this situation. I will share them for what it is worth.

1." sometimes it is best to sit keep quiet and have people believe your Foolish. Than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

2." free advice is usually worth what you pay for it."

3." let the buyer beware."

And much like Forest Gump.........." thats all i have to say about that"

ChickensDoo
04-11-2004, 11:40 PM
you could also add a micro into your mix which will help prevent any fungus. If the seeds do germinate and start to grow. To get a quick root system use a kelp based product with micros.

see my last post........ good lord.

timturf
04-14-2004, 11:27 AM
AYE


STEVEDUG,
You applied alphala pellets, what is the anaylysis? Did you apply a form of p2o5?

stevedug
04-14-2004, 12:58 PM
timturf,

no. i did not apply any phosphorus (i assume that is what p2o5 is). bone meal is the only natural type i know and its pretty pricey for 35K sq feet. i thought about maybe some super phosphate, but i did not do it.

Norm Al
04-14-2004, 01:42 PM
apply PHOSPHITE!

TurfProSTL
04-14-2004, 05:12 PM
I would have to agree with the phosphorous. I've never seen a starter fertilizer that didn't have ample amounts of it. Calcium is good for seeding, as well.

stevedug,
You have apparently put some time and expense into this 35M lawn project. Why not go get some of that Super Phos and put it down? Its mineral and shouldn't interfere with the alfalfa you already put out. Your seedlings are going to need all the help they can get this time of year.....

TurfProSTL
04-14-2004, 05:20 PM
Oh yeah, AYE. I think its a wonderful thing to be excited about your business and/or products. I think its another thing to shamelessy promote same in each and every one of your posts in an informational forum..... :o

Oh, and Chickensdoo, there is a 'quote' button at the bottom of each post in these forums..... :D

My 4 cents

Ric
04-14-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Ric
I second the motion. All in Favor say AYE.

While the AYE votes are still being tallied, It is only fair to call for any Nay Votes

trying 2b organic
04-14-2004, 07:18 PM
I am using a little organic bonemeal to turn my normal organic fert app into a good "starter" app for new seed. Does that sound cosher? What he wants is an organic source of P. This was my solution for same.

googleplex
04-15-2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by TurfProSTL
Oh yeah, AYE. I think its a wonderful thing to be excited about your business and/or products. I think its another thing to shamelessy promote same in each and every one of your posts in an informational forum..... :o



I agree 110%

And, I just decided to make myself a 'sponsor' of this site!

ChickensDoo
04-15-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by TurfProSTL
Oh yeah, AYE. I think its a wonderful thing to be excited about your business and/or products. I think its another thing to shamelessy promote same in each and every one of your posts in an informational forum..... :o

Oh, and Chickensdoo, there is a 'quote' button at the bottom of each post in these forums..... :D

My 4 cents

why thank you turf wizard. i did not notice.:angry:

ChickensDoo
04-15-2004, 09:49 PM
I vote AYE ! frankly i have nearly forgotten what we are discussing. was it self promoting shamelessly?

what kind of starter fertilizer would you use? :confused:

Ric
04-18-2004, 11:45 AM
The AYE have it. Next order of business is "what kind of starter fertilizer would you use?"

I would go synthetic and Organic in two different application My self. Because I know it would give me the the best start possible. Every time I put a ornamental plant in the ground I use Milorganite because it will not burn the roots. I then follow up with a good Synthetic a few weeks later to increase root growth.

Now Grass seed does not do well in my area so I can not commend on it. But Sod laying we have found a base of Milorganite will increase the roots taking hold. But once again a good synthetic Starter will really cause deep root growth.

Tim G
04-24-2004, 12:09 PM
I’m in the process of doing a basic test right now. I am using basic sandbox sand that I put in the oven at 350 degrees for 2 hours. I wanted a very neutral medium. I planted grass seed in 12 containers of the sand and added different foods/fertilizers to all the pots except the control. So far the best result is mycorrhiza only. Believe it or not next is corn gluten and compost tea. Next is mycorrhiza and tea. The next group all about the same growth at this point is…. tea…tea and kelp… mycorrhiza,tea kelp…tea,kelp,humic acid. The control actually has more growth than the synthetic fertilizer I used which was a 10-20-10.
Just doing this test for my own curiosity thought I would share it with you guys.

Ric
04-25-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Tim G
I’m in the process of doing a basic test right now. I am using basic sandbox sand that I put in the oven at 350 degrees for 2 hours. I wanted a very neutral medium. I planted grass seed in 12 containers of the sand and added different foods/fertilizers to all the pots except the control. So far the best result is mycorrhiza only. Believe it or not next is corn gluten and compost tea. Next is mycorrhiza and tea. The next group all about the same growth at this point is…. tea…tea and kelp… mycorrhiza,tea kelp…tea,kelp,humic acid. The control actually has more growth than the synthetic fertilizer I used which was a 10-20-10.
Just doing this test for my own curiosity thought I would share it with you guys.

Tim G.

Anyone who would go to this much trouble on their own I will not knock. However I will caution you about the results you may come up with. They may be skewed.

Play box sand lacks SOM (Soil Organic Matter) and when you put it in the oven, you burned away any that might of been in it. You also killed any beneficial microbes. There is a Nitrogen to Carbon Ratio that is important to plant growth. Your soil sample lacks the carbon to allow Nitrogen to work properly. Therefore your soil sample is not even representative of USGA greens mix. Therefore you will get a skewed result. Because your sample soil has no or lacks CEC (Cation Exchange Capacity), and Hydraulic Conductivity, water soluble elements should leach right though. Therefore I think you will find organic material will do better than synthetics. Organics will add the needed Carbon, CEC and water holding ability to your sample soil. Pure sand should have a neutral pH and organic matter will help to lower the pH which for most turf grasses should be about 6 to 6.8. Now 6.5 is in fact a good medium number for it low enough to enhance CEC and high enough to enhance Microbial activity. pH level is one thing often disputed by the university PhD. Should it be 6.2 or 6.8 ???? I am not for sure of.


Now pure sand in the medium used for Hydroponic is not unlike what you are using for your personal experiment. If in fact you recirculate your water you will have the same results as hydroponic because it would be Hydroponic.

Good luck with your experiment I wish you well. I also think you will find organics will win. I will ask that you try a organic-synthetic mix. I would like to think that in this medium you would find a 2/3 organic to 1/3 synthetic would show the best response at first. after a few years I think you will find the better response will be from an increased use of Synthetics to Organic.

Tim G
04-26-2004, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the info Ric
I will include a test with synthetic fert. and compost tea. I think I know what will happen though. Initially it will grow and be very nice but I think with the added use of synthetic’s the soil will die, I could be wrong though I’ll have to see.
I don’t think I’m trying to discount the use of chemical fertilizer with this test. Im just trying to prove to my self that it is not needed and that increased microbial activity, soil fertility are what makes plants grow healthy in the long run. We all know synthetics grow plants they do not grow soil. Strong fertile soil takes care of itself and the plants that grow in it. In my experiment I wanted to kill anything beneficial in my medium. I wanted to see basic results of organic matter and a sterile medium and different applications of food. The roots will tell the story in the end.
I think for my next test I will add earthworms just to see how well they do.
Ric one question….. Why do you use synthetic fertilizer?