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mdscaper
04-08-2004, 08:30 PM
I thought I'd post some info. I gathered from different state Gov. websites. Since I am trading in my 10k gvw trailer for a 14k Gvw, I wanted to make sure I didn't need a CDL.
According to the Michigan, Maryland and Pa. websites you only need a CDL if your trailer is over 10K AND your GCWR is over 26K.
My Dodge 3500 srw(9900lb) can tow a 14k trailer and stay under this limit. Dodge lists the GCWR for my truck at 23K so as long as my truck isn't fully loaded, I'm good there too.
I did replace the factory hitch with a class V. So as long as I drive carefully, I'm safe, legal and within the manufacturers limits.

selnoil
04-09-2004, 07:57 AM
The best thing to do is call your local State Police or State Police Commercial Enforcement Div. and see what they have to say. At least here in Maine they have always been very helpful. I'd love to help but I'm not sure about the trailer question. I can answer most cdl stuff but you got me here.

GeoffDiamond
04-09-2004, 04:43 PM
Guys it is pretty simple.

The Key Word is TRAILER. If there trailer is 10,001 lbs or more you need a Class A cdl to move the trailer. It doesn't matter if your using a Ford F 350 to tow it or a International Paystar 5000.

Geoff

mdb landscaping
04-09-2004, 06:32 PM
geoff is right on the money.........we got tagged at a dmv truck squad stop and they said we technically needed a cdl. its an f350 towing a 28 ft big tex trailer. load that up with 3 riders, a walkbehind, and back pack blowers, we are well over 10k. this winter we all went and got our cdls just so we are covered if we get stopped again.

selnoil
04-09-2004, 08:56 PM
Glad you guys were able to help mdscaper. My oil company rigs are all cdl. I've never had to deal with these smaller trailers but now I know. Out of curiousity Matt did they issue you guys all class A's. My company has tractor trailers and straight trucks so my guys use them. I've never heard of guys using a 1 ton with a tag-a-long to get licenses before, thats cool and I bet easier too.
Our lawn care trailer is a 16' 7000 gvw so we are almost there.

Mike

JB1
04-09-2004, 09:19 PM
Here we have to have all dot equipment for anything over 10001 pounds and that includes a medical card but we do not have to have cdl's till we are over 26000 pounds.

mdscaper
04-10-2004, 08:14 PM
I appreciate the help guys, but unless I'm reading these sites wrong, a CDL is only required when the GCWR is over 26K. Therefore my combination (24K) doesn't fit the need. All the states I saw have different wording, but the same requirements.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627-21609--,00.html (http://)

I have a feeling that even some of the enforcement officers are confused. The combination requirement is pretty well spelled out on the above site.

mdscaper
04-10-2004, 08:24 PM
The link doesn't seem to work, so you can go to the cdl section of the michigan.gov site and click on "Who needs a commercial drivers license"

selnoil
04-10-2004, 09:12 PM
Its going to rain here on Tuesday so I'm going to call the ME state police. I seem to recall someone talking about it one time. I'm in your court thinking its over 26,000 but I'll let you know what ME says since I'd like to know anyway.

bnrhuffman
04-11-2004, 08:02 AM
mdscaper,
Im looking at my WV CDL study guide right now (Im getting my CDL for other purposes) and you are exactly right. I believe MD follows NCDLP guidelines just like WV. You need a CDL if you go over 26000 GCWR. Those of you that are talking about needing a CDL for a trailer over 10000 are talking about the difference between a class B and a class A CDL.
You do need a USDOT number on that truck and a USDOT medical card if you travel across state lines and use the vehicle for business (interstate commerce). Im in the same boat as you. My truck and trailer GCVW is 24400 and I travel across state lines. My question is do I want to bother with the USDOT number and the rest of the crap that goes with it. The way I see it, its basically unenforcable. If I get stopped, whos to say whether Im using it for interstate commerce or going to walmart for dish soap.

selnoil
04-11-2004, 08:19 AM
The dot numbers are free. All you need to do is contact the state and you will be issued a number. I have 3 different numbers for my companies and that was the easiest thing to get. Its better to have them and not need um then give the dot boys one more thing to write you up on.

Why are so many guys nervous about calling the state?? ME is always very helpful!!

Mike

GeoffDiamond
04-11-2004, 10:25 AM
Let me Repeat the Key Word Is Trailer. It doesn't matter what the tow vehicle is, if the trailer is 10,001 or more you need a Class A CDL. It is very simple!

Class A represents a combination vehicle.

Combination Vehicles are a Combination of a Truck of any weight and a trailer of 10,001 LBS or more. If you are pulling 12,000 lbs with a F 550 that is a class A vehicle.

Class B Vehicle is a Truck with no trailer. The truck weighs 26,001 or more LBS. With a Class B Vehicle you are allowed to tow up to 10,000 lbs before it is considered a Class A Vehicle.

Again Key Word Towing weight.

Class C Vehicle is a truck weighing 26,000 lbs or less. With a Class C you are allowed to tow up to 10,000 lbs no more. At 10,001 or more you need a Class A CDL.

I don't know where you guys get this crap that you are allowed up to a 26,000 combination. It is a load of crap and is untrue, there is one federal law that defines class A. The bottom line is go out and get the correct licence, because with in 5 years you will get nabed and be on here complaining that a LCO can't make an honest living because of the govermental policies.

Of course you guys still doubt me. So check out this link this is the application for a Commercial Drivers License. If you read the one for class A it is again 10,000 lbs trailer. Key Word Trailer.

http://www.state.me.us/sos/bmv/forms/CDL_school_bus.pdf

For Maine Operators no Med Card required till your are 100 miles from your registered location. The only exception is with haz mat and then you need a med card for any class at any millage.

http://www.state.me.us/sos/bmv/commercial/cvsins.htm

Geoff

mdb landscaping
04-11-2004, 10:33 AM
not doubting you here geoff.............i understand the guidelines are confusing, but they need to overlook the truck rules, cause like you say, the minute a trailer passes 10,001 lbs you need class A, wether your towing with a f350 or mack 10 wheeler.

mdscaper
04-11-2004, 02:05 PM
Geeez, I didn't mean to get an argument going. :D Here is my final conclusion. I'm going down to the DMV tomorrow. But from the MD truckers handbook(pdf file) I swear this is what it said.
The definition of a commercial vehicle is any vehicle or combination that is over 26K. If you have a CDL, you need a class A to tow over 10k lbs. (Geoff's point exactly).
But, if you have a non-commercial driver's license, and are operating a commercial vehicle intrastate you can have any combo up to 26k lbs. This has me wondering why you would get a class C cdl at all.
Starting October 2003, if you have a non-commercial license operating a commercial vehicle over 10k you need a physical card. It conveniently leaves out anything about towing.
I also saw that MD has recently passed weight rating changes for the purpose of helping small businesses like landscapers NOT have to get a CDL for all their drivers.(I know, I was in shock too). MD used to have ratings that jumped from 10k directly to 20K. Now it's in 2000 lb. increments so you can tow and still stay under 26K.

bnrhuffman
04-11-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by GeoffDiamond
Let me Repeat the Key Word Is Trailer. It doesn't matter what the tow vehicle is, if the trailer is 10,001 or more you need a Class A CDL. It is very simple!

Class A represents a combination vehicle.

Combination Vehicles are a Combination of a Truck of any weight and a trailer of 10,001 LBS or more. If you are pulling 12,000 lbs with a F 550 that is a class A vehicle.



Geoff

Heres what my CDL book says.
The first requirement for needing a CDL is that it must be a commercial vehicle. Thats one over 26000 GVWR or GCWR. If its not over 26000, you dont need one. Period. That means if you have a truck thats 9000 GVWR and a trailer thats 12000 GVWR, you are under CDL. Its possible that your state is more strict than the National Commercial Drivers License Program, maybe thats where the confusion is.
Of course there are other requirements for passengers and hazmat. I left those out for simplicity.

bnrhuffman
04-11-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by selnoil
The dot numbers are free. All you need to do is contact the state and you will be issued a number. I have 3 different numbers for my companies and that was the easiest thing to get. Its better to have them and not need um then give the dot boys one more thing to write you up on.

Why are so many guys nervous about calling the state?? ME is always very helpful!!

Mike

I know the numbers are free and Im not nervious about it but I use the trauck to comute, I would also like to be able to let my wife drive it at some point. I mean its an F350. Big deal if my wife jumps in to take it to work or whatever. Should she need a medical card to do that? Should she need to keep fuel records and stop at weigh stations.
In WV anything over 10000 combined needs USDOT numbers if it conducts interstate commerce. That means a 1/2 ton pickup pulling a landscaping trailer needs a USDOT number, how many of those do you see with USDOT numbers?
I have no problem with keeping the required safety equipment on board and so forth and the medical card for me is not a big deal because Im getting my CDL A soon anyway. Its just one more headache (dealing with the government always is) that I can avoid. I mean honestly, how enforcable is it. The DOT is only going to stop you and write you if you have the numbers. If you dont have them, they dont care what you do.

GeoffDiamond
04-11-2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by bnrhuffman
Heres what my CDL book says.
The first requirement for needing a CDL is that it must be a commercial vehicle. Thats one over 26000 GVWR or GCWR. If its not over 26000, you dont need one. Period. That means if you have a truck thats 9000 GVWR and a trailer thats 12000 GVWR, you are under CDL. Its possible that your state is more strict than the National Commercial Drivers License Program, maybe thats where the confusion is.
Of course there are other requirements for passengers and hazmat. I left those out for simplicity.

Here is where you are wrong:

1. A commercial Vehicle is actually any vehicle over 10,000 lbs.

2. The 26,000 GVR is the point at which you must have a Class B CDL to operate the vehicle.

3. Again for like the 5th time the Key Word is TRAILER. If the Trailer is over 10,000 you need a class A CDL that is a Federal Law.

This 12,000 trailer and 12,500 truck for a total of 24,500 combined weight does not work.

If you guys want to believe this combination law of 12K trailer 12K truck is legal than so be it. The bottom line is don't complain when you get nabbed.

Geoff

selnoil
04-11-2004, 06:29 PM
OK, today I spoke with a Commercial DOT enforcement officer up the road here in Maine. Yes in Maine you would need a class A CDL to tow a trailer over 10,000 lbs even if it was towed by a vehical not usually requiring a CDL. He did advise that each stste can have different rules so you should check with your own state.

Regarding DOT numbers, yes you need them. If your name is on the side of the truck they are required to be displayed at all times, however, if you do not have your company name on the tow vehicle you only need to display them while the the unit is working. In short have them put on a magnet, then when the truck is not working remove them.

Now here in Maine the tow vehicle must be registered for the total combined weight (truck and trailer). So my towing pick-up trucks are registered for 16,000 which technically keeps them over the 10,000 lbs DOT number requirement all the time. But unless the truck is working my wife will never be stoped so I've cheated and put the DOT numbers on the trailer. The Officer I spoke with told me although they should be on the truck he wouldn't mind since we at least had them.

I've never really had to deal with the small trailer weight issue since my guys are all class A with physical cards and in a random drug program. My advise again is not to listen to us but to consult your state and the one you cross into since they are the ones you must comply with!!

Heron Cove PM
04-11-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by bnrhuffman
mdscaper,...You do need a USDOT number on that truck and a USDOT medical card if you travel across state lines and use the vehicle for business (interstate commerce)...

In the state of Maryland you ether need U.S. DOT numbers OR M. Dot numbers EVEN IF YOU DO NOT GO ACROSS STATE LINES.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62979

Heron Cove PM
04-11-2004, 07:12 PM
Geoff is right Maryland CDL hand book page iv look at the chart.

Class A: Any single or combination of vehicles. Any trailer

Class B: Motor vehicles 26,001 or more pound (GVW). Trailers 10,00 pounds or less.

Class C: Motor vehicles under 26,001 pounds (GVW). Trailers 10,000 pounds or less.

selnoil
04-11-2004, 07:52 PM
Heron Cove is correct. We have 3 different sets of DOT #'s for my different companies and 2 of them are just for in-state which have an ME at the end (USDOT ######ME) and the other is for equipment that goes out of state (USDOT ######).

GeoffDiamond
04-11-2004, 08:08 PM
In terms of DOT Numbers and Med Cards in Maine here is the deal:

This Maine ONLY:

http://www.state.me.us/sos/bmv/commercial/cvsins.htm


Geoff

mdscaper
04-11-2004, 08:35 PM
Maybe this will make a difference in my situation. Since I am a sole proprietor, do 99% of the work myself and get my jobs from referrals I have never put signs on my truck or trailer. They are registered in my name (not my company's). When you are the sole proprietor you/company are not seperate legal entities. I guess I would not be considered a"commercial vehicle" on my registration. This could be why my GCWR on my registration has N/A not a weight.
According to the chart on the former post, I should have had a CDL class C just to pull my current trailer. So should everyone pulling any trailer at all. I had no idea that even a small lawn care company with a pickup and a couple of walk behinds needed a cdl.
It still confuses me that Maryland recently enacted(oct. 2003) a law requiring "non-commercial drivers of commercial vehicles between 10,001 and 26,000 lbs to have a dot physical card, even if they don't have a CDL". It seems that they would need to have a CDL just to drive the vehicle. And what is a non-commercial driver of a commercial vehicle. I will attempt to solve these mysteries tomorrow. Luckily, the main MVA branch isn't to far from where I will be ordering my new trailer. I'll post what I am told by our ever helpful MVA employees.
Thanks again for all your help.

bnrhuffman
04-12-2004, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Heron Cove PM
Geoff is right Maryland CDL hand book page iv look at the chart.

Class A: Any single or combination of vehicles. Any trailer

Class B: Motor vehicles 26,001 or more pound (GVW). Trailers 10,00 pounds or less.

Class C: Motor vehicles under 26,001 pounds (GVW). Trailers 10,000 pounds or less.

That chart doesnt say I need a CDL to pull a 10000+ trailer.

http://www.cdl-course.com/exam-md.html
http://www.pass-the-exam.com/course-md.html
http://bmv.ohio.gov/cdl.html

I can do this all day long and every one of them will say that the first requirement for needing a CDL is 26001 lbs GVWR. They will not say that a CDL is required for a 10000 lbs trailer. They do say a CDL A is required for a 10000 lbs trailer, but only if you are over the 26000 lbs GCWR.

bnrhuffman
04-12-2004, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by GeoffDiamond
Here is where you are wrong:

1. A commercial Vehicle is actually any vehicle over 10,000 lbs.

2. The 26,000 GVR is the point at which you must have a Class B CDL to operate the vehicle.

3. Again for like the 5th time the Key Word is TRAILER. If the Trailer is over 10,000 you need a class A CDL that is a Federal Law.

This 12,000 trailer and 12,500 truck for a total of 24,500 combined weight does not work.

If you guys want to believe this combination law of 12K trailer 12K truck is legal than so be it. The bottom line is don't complain when you get nabbed.

Geoff

Here is where you are wrong:

1. As defined in every resource I could find, CMV = GVWR of 26001 or more. (there are many other things that would classify a vehicle as commercial, with respect to needing a CDL, but none of them have anything to do with 10000 lbs)

2. Agreed. As long as your trailer isnt over 10000 lbs.

3. If the trailer is over 10000 AND the trailer and powered vehicle are over 26000, you need a CDL A.
It doesnt matter what the trailer weighs If you stay under 26001 GCVW, you do not need a CDL. I havent said it five times yet but I may at some point.

I like this link because it states clearly that the first thing that is required of all the CDL classes (A,B,) except C is that the GVWR has to be over 26000 lbs.
http://bmv.ohio.gov/cdl.html

Would you care to waiger :)
I am 110% sure of this and Ive seen nothing to dispute it. Well, except here.

mole
04-12-2004, 09:05 AM
Hey
If you guys go on unemployment during the off season, unemployment will pay for you to get you cld class a. I was working construction a long time ago and was laid off for the winter months when I went to unemployment they asked if I was intrested I said heck yeah if they were going to pay, I still have my class A today. The best is in the winter when the snow lets up I go drive a dump truck to haul snow away for 22 an hr to sit and drive for 6 hrs. not a bad gig.

Heron Cove PM
04-12-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by bnrhuffman
That chart doesnt say I need a CDL to pull a 10000+ trailer.


THIS PLACE IS UNBELIEVABLE SOMETIMES. Do I really need to type EVERY word form the book verbatim? The title above that chart says you need a CDL for the following. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/banghead.gif

mdscaper
04-12-2004, 05:55 PM
I hope this attachment works. If not, I'll try again.