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Hamons
04-27-2004, 09:40 PM
TimTurf and I are having a discussion about which fertilizers would be the best to build into my lawncare program.

I have found a very good organic fertilizer sold by agri-nutrients.

It is calleD Mo-Gro --- 4-2-5 2%Fe 20% Humates MOP - around $7/bag at my door. I would put it into a program that would look something like this

(March) 15-1-10 (.1 Dim) ---------5#/m--------.75-.05-.5 ($.28#)
(June) 4-2-5---------------------10#/m--------.40-.02-.5
(Sept) 4-2-5----------------------25#/m---------1.0-.50-1.5
(Nov) 15-1-10 -------------------6.5#/m---- ---1.0-.06-.65
==============================================
Annual Total ----3.15-.64-3.15


a little more potash then I need and a little less p.2.5 -- but overall Ithink it would be a nice program.

This compared toa more conventional bridged organic 15-3-6, 50% biosolids, scu, sop, muraite of potash. which cost $14.00.

What are your thoughts?

TurfProSTL
04-28-2004, 03:28 AM
Do you have any concerns about putting down that much MOP in September? I would personally feel a little better using SOP.....

timturf
04-28-2004, 07:46 AM
the 15 -3 -6 has 2.5 units of n is win from biosolids, and 6.0 units of n is controled slow release from scu. total fert is 56.6% slow release.

I too would be concerned about 1.5 lbs/m of muraite of potash in september!

I think the .64 p2o5 is adequate for a lawn that clipping are returned and soil p is in normal range.

march 15-1-10 .75n .05p .50k mop or sop?
june 15-3-6 .45n .09p .18k mop and sop
sept 15-3-6 1.05n .21p .42k mop and sop
nov 15-1-10 .90n .06p .60k mopor sop?
total 3.15n .41p 1.31k

this program I feel doesn't give enough k

Jeff, more details on 15-1-10 dim and 15-1-10. any slow release, any organic?

Why so much humate, 20% or7 lbs/m for season? What are the benefits of humate?

Hamons
04-28-2004, 09:03 AM
15-1-10 is 50% organic from biosolids other from urea, and mop

Yes I have same concern about MOP would much rather have sop.

I have very little actual experience with humates and have a hard time finding any true research on it. Only information on the websites if from the salesman. They reccommend 5-7# of humates per application.

ChickensDoo
04-28-2004, 10:53 AM
Hammons,
For comprehensive info on Humates try www.organicapproach.com or www.teravita.com. These folks are the best source of information and humates i am aware of.
Their are some big differences in Humate's on the market. and specifically what is the source Leonarditeetc. I would suggest you call Eric Danese with Organic approach.
Not only do they sell the products, More importantly they use them in their Lawn Service division
I believe you can order some of the Nutrients plus products through them with their humates added.

Hamons
04-28-2004, 11:58 AM
I have talked with Eric personally -- very informative guy. I have also spoke directly with Nutrients plus. Good products. but.... they also are selling their products!

Nutrients plus is too expensive when shipped to KS.

Catmann
04-28-2004, 05:07 PM
Bottom line is you really need to throw out the concept that plants needs so many "units" of this and that. Plants and soils are dynamic and constantly changing. Biological activity is paramount to anything else. Everything a plant needs is derived from biological activity.

MOP is worthless for anyone in this "organic" forum as it is KCL. Chlorine will kill biological activity in very small doses, so what is the point of using organic materials to feed the microbes and then killing them with KCL?????

I do not know the Agri-Products stuff personally, but it seems there is nothing on their site focused on organics, so I am curious what the Mo-gro product is made from. Regardless, Leonardite is what would be in the product, not Humates (which are by definition soluble "salts" of humic acid. I have no problem with Leonardite as a soil conditioner or as a microbial food source, just do not expect it to do what true "humates" do in terms of providing available carbon, immediate chelation, soil structuring, etc. etc. See the teravita.com site for specifics about what they are.

As for Kansas shipping, yes it is true it is more expensive to get product there. If you can use/order 10 pallets, pricing should be better, but for less it would have to be on a per quote basis. Shoot a volume and a zip and I can shoot a delivered price.

Nutrients Plus is an excellent product - well designed to deliver what Nature needs. It is true there are many products in the marketplace these days, but from my experience, most of them are not "designed" to deliver specific parameters of carbon/nitrogen, organic matter, WSN vs WIN, etc. Nutrients Plus had all of these thought in the design stage and the products work well, so it would be my first choice in the organic realm.

That is not to say other products cannot or will not work. There are many possibilites and methodologies that can be employed in lawn care.

I am going to post my little "article" on our site for you all to read. It is not visible from any other place, so you must click here to read it (too many copyright thieves out there!) If I see the info appear anywhere else I am coming after you! Just kidding!

http://www.organicapproach.com/Tempfiles.htm:D

ChickensDoo
04-28-2004, 08:36 PM
Hamons, Eric Danese,
I am Glad the two of you have spoken. I agree with what Eric said in his last post reguarding tossing some of the traditional n,p,k, benchmarks to the side.
And focus on the O. M. and C:N ratio to feed the soil.
I m ay be biased but i do believe Nutrients plus combines the best of both worlds in plant nutrient from quality sources, and Organic Matter.
I wholeheartedly agree that mop and kcl are not desired for the health of the soil.

dishboy
04-29-2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by ChickensDoo
Hamons, Eric Danese,
I am Glad the two of you have spoken. I agree with what Eric said in his last post reguarding tossing some of the traditional n,p,k, benchmarks to the side.
And focus on the O. M. and C:N ratio to feed the soil.
I m ay be biased but i do believe Nutrients plus combines the best of both worlds in plant nutrient from quality sources, and Organic Matter.
I wholeheartedly agree that mop and kcl are not desired for the health of the soil.

Chickendoo: I am guesing muriate of Potash = MOP?

Excuse my ignorance, but what are the negative results of using MOP?

Also would a grass/leaf compost collected from all the local Gardners [my tomates loved it] be a good source of organic matter, and would you have any idea what such a compost would be in NPK?
Any info is appreciated!

Tom

timturf
04-29-2004, 10:44 AM
hammons,

Is the 15-1-10 same fert, but spring has dim added?

What % of 15-1-10 is contolled slow release n for both spring and fall applications?

eric, good info at organic approach!

Hamons
04-29-2004, 05:33 PM
15-1-10 is the same fert in Spring and Fall except with .1 dim added.

15-1-10 is 12% of N from Urea and 3% WIN from Biosolids.

I see and understand this fertilizers downfalls. Not enough slow release and MOP. That's why I'm looking at other options.

Looking at the amount of reccommended Humates that need to be applied to soil, how is this accomplished with liquid applications. Last season I used a product called Super Shot 40 in my blanket herbicide app. It is a complex of humic acid intended for foliar. I applied at label rate of .125 quarts/1000 -- no where need 7lbs.

I think the link I'm missing is the difference between humic acid and humates. I'll have to research that further.

This is turnign into a goood thread -- we can all learn more from this discussion.

timturf
04-29-2004, 08:11 PM
I believe the humates are converted to humic acid, so your on the right track, now do more research!!!!!!!

Does the bio Solids contain humates?

Ric
04-29-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by dishboy
Chickendoo: I am guesing muriate of Potash = MOP?

Excuse my ignorance, but what are the negative results of using MOP?

Also would a grass/leaf compost collected from all the local Gardners [my tomates loved it] be a good source of organic matter, and would you have any idea what such a compost would be in NPK?
Any info is appreciated!

Tom

Tom

This a great question for the Bioman. I am sure he can tell you what he thinks the N-P-K of compost is.

MOP Muriate of Potash has a very high Chlorine content. Now while Chlorine is in fact a Micro element of fertilizer too much of any thing can be toxic. Chlorine is one of those elements that can be toxic at a very low level. Potassium Sulfate is a much better source of Potash. It is also higher priced.

Ric
04-29-2004, 09:04 PM
SOP => Sulfate of Potash ==> Potassium Sulfate

dishboy
04-29-2004, 10:25 PM
Thanks for your help Ric

Tom

timturf
04-29-2004, 11:22 PM
althou sop is more expensive, once combined with other nutrients in a blended fert, makes very little difference in price!

ChickensDoo
04-29-2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by dishboy
Chickendoo: I am guesing muriate of Potash = MOP?

Excuse my ignorance, but what are the negative results of using MOP?

Also would a grass/leaf compost collected from all the local Gardners [my tomates loved it] be a good source of organic matter, and would you have any idea what such a compost would be in NPK?
Any info is appreciated!

Tom

Tom,
your guessing right. Muriate of potash. muriate is like putting salt on a slug, in terms of the effects on biological activity.

In theory grass, leaf combo compost is fine, however not composting yourself you are likely picking up residues from herbicides, part of the reason chlorpyrifid ( confront, battleship, momentum, ) will be forced off the Home lawn care market.
Especially as sensitive as Tomato's are to herbicides. you got lucky?
As for the analysis, depends on many factors and decomposition of the organic materials. If i were guessing it would be a 1-1-1 not much more.
Good Luck

woodycrest
04-29-2004, 11:52 PM
Bottom line is you really need to throw out the concept that plants needs so many "units" of this and that. Plants and soils are dynamic and constantly changing. Biological activity is paramount to anything else. Everything a plant needs is derived from biological activity.

Compost is simply organic matter chock full of microbes. i dont see NPK being relevant to compost. THe compost feeds the soil and the earthworms.
Water, sunshine and proper mowing does the rest.

Pardon my simple perspective, but all the calculations seem to just confuse the issue.

Dave

dishboy
04-29-2004, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by ChickensDoo
Tom,
your guessing right. Muriate of potash. muriate is like putting salt on a slug, in terms of the effects on biological activity.

In theory grass, leaf combo compost is fine, however not composting yourself you are likely picking up residues from herbicides, part of the reason chlorpyrifid ( confront, battleship, momentum, ) will be forced off the Home lawn care market.
Especially as sensitive as Tomato's are to herbicides. you got lucky?
As for the analysis, depends on many factors and decomposition of the organic materials. If i were guessing it would be a 1-1-1 not much more.
Good Luck

ChickensDoo: Thanks for your info, you are probably right about residues being like russian roulette. So this raises another question, are the herbicides residues present after watering and the grass and if so for how long? Is chlorpyrfid the only one I need to worry about or would this apply to 2-4-D, dicamba, merit, etc.

It is to bad this is a issue, [risdual chemicals], as outside of town is sitting about eight acres of leaf/grass compost in wind rows. I put it in my raised beds and in prepping my lawn, and in overseeding my girlfriends lawn. Great results.

Tom

timturf
04-30-2004, 12:35 AM
Since the plant needs n,p,k, and other nutrients, you still need to care what nutrients are supplied in your organic fert!

I wouldn't want to use only corn meal !

woodycrest
04-30-2004, 01:01 AM
Yes, i agree...a balanced diet is important.
Corn meal is a great fertilizer.
i didnt see any snow mould and what i think is 'fairy ring' on my greens this spring(i could be wrong on the exact names but it was certainly some kind of fungi). Last spring there was fungi eveywhere. I think that amount of snow cover and the duration of the snow cover would have an effect on the amount of fungi. So i cant say for sure it was the corn meal that took care of the fungi, but i am certain it helped.
I applied corn at 20 lbs/thousand to the greens just before freeze up last fall..it was mostly still there after the snow melted this spring.So it helps control fungi, And it is readily available to to feed the microbes as soon as the soil warms up.

I think a fairly heavy topdressing with compost would be beneficial in the spring, and alfalfa and or corn in october(at 20/1000), and of course mulch mowing the clippings throughout the season.

Things are finally starting to warm up around here...just did some first cuts this week...wont be long til the grass goes nuts!! :)

timturf
05-03-2004, 08:05 PM
So, would somebody answer the question on the benefit of humates, and or humic acid and the recommended total rate per year?

I know the increase root mass, but what other benefits?

ChickensDoo
05-04-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by dishboy
ChickensDoo: Thanks for your info, you are probably right about residues being like russian roulette. So this raises another question, are the herbicides residues present after watering and the grass and if so for how long? Is chlorpyrfid the only one I need to worry about or would this apply to 2-4-D, dicamba, merit, etc.

It is to bad this is a issue, [risdual chemicals], as outside of town is sitting about eight acres of leaf/grass compost in wind rows. I put it in my raised beds and in prepping my lawn, and in overseeding my girlfriends lawn. Great results.

Tom

Tom,
I believe the clorpyrifid has a very long residual, which is why the home use has been dropped. As for 2-4-d, dicamba, mcpp, etc. Any residue applied to nontarget plants are a problem?
I can see your use of this compost in lawn rennovation's etc. but i would be wary of its use in plant beds without residue's being a known factor.

Hamons
05-04-2004, 12:04 PM
Many compost facilities randomly test for residues in their compost. I have two suppliers of compost. One that test their compost monthly for residual herbicides and makes those results available. ANother compost facility does not accept yard waste so it is a non-factor.

Catmann
05-04-2004, 05:33 PM
timturf,

Humates are very complex molecules (the answer is LONG). But, in a nutshell, the molecule comprises many things chained (linked) together. It contains amino acids, high levels of organic (usable) carbon, the natural ability to chelate nutrients, is able to hold water within its open spaces of the molecule, is able to sequester nitrates and keep them from leaching or volatizing....

Within the plant it is able to bond with the cell wall molecules, essentially creating a thicker cell wall, which helps the cell to regulate its internal temperature much more efficiently. This leaves increased energy reserves for other functions.

Fragments are able to capture quantums of solar energy and store it for plant use.

Humates lock-up heavy metals into tight bonds, which is really only important in contaminated areas.

Humates can buffer (not eliminate) influences of high salinity.

Humates can increase soil organic matter. Citrus groves have documented a 0.5% increase in one year with 25 lbs per treated acre.

Humates are strong fungal foods and have shown the ability to reduce disease activity and severity.

On a foliar level they can re-structure water creating "melted water" or "wetter water" This allows it to become a synergist with any systemic material applied. Herbicide and fungicide rates can be reduced (15%-25%) by adding 1 oz of TeraVita LC-12 per 10 gallons of total spray. Round-up can normally be reduced by 50% using the same rate. This has been confirmed by numerous nurseries and a large right-of-way spraying contractor, among others.

As for root mass, just heard today from a university doing trials that tomatoes planted on April 4th from seed that look identical above ground are:
Control - weight - non-dried = 1 pound
Humate Rate #3 (not sure what the rate was yet) - non dried - weight = 3 lbs.
The roots were substacially thicker and more prolific. 2 lbs is a lot in a small planter cell. I will hopefull have pictures in the next few days if anyone cares.

Rates: depends strongly on crop, and use (golf, park, home, etc) but generally an annual total would be 12-15 lbs per acre ideal for standard turf, 15-25 lbs per acre for golf.

Per app I would shoot for 3-6 lbs per acre and do it 2-4 times per year. Foliar rate are normally 1 oz per 10 gallons of solution as a snyergist and/or 16-32 oz per acre otherwise, not to exceed 1 oz per gallon on greens and tees or a temporary brownish hue could result.

Humates are only a piece of a puzzle. They are not a sole answer. Used with a biological program they can really shine. Adding them and doing everything else chemical will severely deplete the overall benefits.

I am only speaking of soluble humates by the way - not Leonardite. Leonardite is best used in the greens contruction phase for long-term effects. Leonardite is extremely insoluble and can take many years to break down such that the many fragments of the molecules can be utilized as described above.

Hope this helps a little anyway.

muddstopper
05-04-2004, 08:20 PM
This a lot of good info for the maintenance side of the turf issue and If proper planning is done before planting the turf. How does one address the issue of adding organic matter to a customers lawn that they are seeding when the customer is unknown to the operator and calls up and wants their lawn seeded tomorrow. I do hydroseeding and conventional seeding and a lot of my customers are people that are building new homes and prior to their phone call I have never met. They all have one thing in common, they want it done now. I have done soil testing all over my work areas and have a pretty good general knowledge as what to expect a far a nutrient reqirements for their soils, not exact but within tolerance. I use a 15/39/7 fertilizer I have specially blended using Sufate Potash that I use for a starter. I have just started using this blend and the results are really positive. This fertilizer was blended based on adverages of soils tested and by working with my state agronomist. The problem I have is that there is no top soil at most sites and the seeding surface is subsoil. I would like to add some organics to my seeding slurry, having considered composte as the most likey organic. What I havent figured out is how much would be needed to show real benefits and if used in conjunction with my starter fert, would the chemicals kill off all the benefitial microbes. I apply this starter fert at 5lb per 1000 sqft when used in the hydroseeding slurry since the fertilizer isnt incorporated into the ground and is in direct contact with the seed. I also apply 22lbs of dolomitic lime per 1000. So If anybody can answer how this mixture will work in conjunction with compost's at the time of planting, (using a hydroseeder), or maybe suggest a different additive I would be extremly thankful.

timturf
05-05-2004, 11:16 AM
eric
thanks for the reply
does humic acid come from humates?
What rate of humates = what rate of humic acid/
Besides non soluble leonardite, what are some examples of soluble humates?
Are their humates in organic matter and bioSolids?

So jeff 4-2-5 fert with 20% humates applied twice for a total rate of 35Lbs/m, would be excessive application of humates? his fert applies 7 lbs of humates/m or305lbs/acre of humates.
I believe you recommended 12 to 25lbs humates per acre!

Catmann
05-05-2004, 04:08 PM
Ok, Humates 101 time:

Humates are the "soluble salts of humic acid" - soluble in water.

Pure Humic Acid is insoluble in water.

Leonardite is NOT humate, but rather lignite that contains high levels of humic acids - insoluble.

Unfortunately, most companies do not distinguish Leonardite from Humate and call the raw product Humate when it is not.

Anything with 20% humates will be 20% Leonardite, not humate

Humate costs anywhere from $3 to $8 per pound depending on volume, supplier, etc.

Leonardite is more like $0.20 to $0.40 per pound

Leonardite is a mined deposit - it is a "soft coal" formed over millions of years - it is essentially peat moss decomposed another million years. Different deposits have different levels of humic acids, but they are all insoluble, or they would have leached from the earth into the water-table millions of years ago!

Soluble humates are "extracted" from Leonardite. they can be extracted from peat, soil, and even stream water, but in such small quantities that it is not economically viable to use anything but Leonardite commercially.

As examples, TeraVita LC-12, SP-85, SP-100, SG-70 are all soluble products. TeraVita L-85 is not, it is Leonardite. Almost all mines sell only Leonardite as they are not in the humate business, they are in the mining business.

Humic acids are in almost all soil, as well as compost and peat, but in very small quantities.

Humic acids are the "active ingredient" of organic matter.

Using soluble humates allows for very complex reactions to occur immediately, providing immediate benefit. Plus, you can use them in lquid systems and dry systems.

heritage
05-07-2004, 10:33 PM
FISH HYDROLYSATE

Eric Danese,
Does Fish Emulsion in the Hydrolysate form Have Humic Acids?
I use a Fish/Kelp product and I am seeing the best results from all other products that I have used. IAA,Gib Acid,Cytokinins are Part of the reason but I am curious if There are Humic Acids as well.
Thanks for your reply eric,
Pete D.

bioman
05-08-2004, 08:13 AM
Harmun,

Call me to get some more information on are programs. To start out we are going to need some soil samples. they are sent to a lab in Texas. This lab is the only lab in the US that is using the following method:

Most Labs use strong chemicals for extracting plant nutrients. Only small portions of these large amounts of nutrients are available to plant roots. Especially true with Potash, Magnesium & Calcium.

TPSL uses Carbon Dioxide (CO2) [which occurs naturally (secreted by TPSL soil tests and fertilizers applied are being evaluated continually using plant analysis to calibrate actual nutrient uptake for Maximum Economic Yields using Best Management Practices.

TPSL standard includes many other tests which affect nutrient uptake, such as soil texture, humus content, nitrates, free carbonates, total salts, amount of soluble salt cations. These tests are important for making the most accurate soil fertilizer recommendations possible. Our extraction mimics the natural action of the plant roots.

Other laboratories use cation exchange capacity (CEC) and percent base saturation methods that often generate inaccurate evaluations at lower costs. However, when other laboratories perform the additional TPSL tests needed for better recommendations, their charges often are higher than TPSL charges.

TPSL Natural CO2 method works well on acid and alkaline soils in all areas of the world where plants grow.

Staff Experienced in farming, research, consulting, testing, walking fields and yards.

Methods & Philosophies in building productive, healthy soils with good organic matter levels.

Emphasis on humus content as the key to nutrient availability for profitable yields & Quality.

Then we will write a program for your area. The cost of the program to you based on shipping 1,200 miles form either Houston, Tx. or Gainesville, Fl. is only $85.00 - 100.00 per 6,000 sqft. There is know guessing with our programs.

Thanks,

ChickensDoo
05-12-2004, 01:01 PM
ok now i get it. bioman, your really Blondie that bad pop star from the 80's.
Gotta be it.... No one else Says CALL ME as much as you do except Blondie........ Over and Over and Over, CALL ME!

Just curious... how many people really do call?:cry:

Ric
05-12-2004, 08:21 PM
ChickensDoo

Please Call me. I have a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge. You can buy it real cheap and set up a toll booth.

ChickensDoo
05-12-2004, 11:28 PM
Ric,
no... you call me i have some kelp /iron that will really get that new seed jumping.:o