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TREEGODFATHER
05-31-2004, 09:59 AM
Started in another thread, felt it merited its' own:

Originally posted by DFelix, quoting myself:


quote:
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You do realize that any trailer with a GVWR over 10,001# requires a Class A CDL, right?

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No, it doesn't.

Here in Indiana, the CDL manual states that (going from memory here, but I'm right) any combination of truck and trailer with a GCVWR of 26,001 pounds requires a Class A CDL- PROVIDED that the trailer wieght rating is 10,001 pounds or more.

Simply put, I could pull an 18,000 pound trailer with my 1/2 ton truck and be legal without a Class A. I CANNOT pull a 12,000 pound trailer with an F-450 or F-550 and be legal though.

If it's being used for commercial purposes, you need a DOT number, and if you need a DOT number you also probably need (in Indiana, at least) a Chauffer's license, unless you are up in the CDL range.

Just because the trailer is rated 10,001 or more pounds doesn't make it necessary to have a CDL. I pull a 12,000 pound trailer on a daily basis behind an F-350 and I'm legal without a CDL....

This may, and probably does, vary by state.


Dan

TREEGODFATHER
05-31-2004, 10:00 AM
According to my MASS CDL book,

The only license class that allows towing a vehicle over 10,001# is a class A.

Class B and C both specify a towed vehicle UNDER 10,000.

The CDL laws supposed to be the same for all 50 states; it was the reason they came out with the systen in the first place,- to make it universal.

Oddly though, it doesn't specify anything for a class D. That may be where your F350 and trailer come in?


BTW, with your example, you'd still be illegal.

You said "Simply put, I could pull an 18,000 pound trailer with my 1/2 ton truck and be legal without a Class A. "

Remember your 1/2 ton has a rating, too. You'd be far exceeding any 1/2 ton's GCWR, and hence in violation of DOT regs.


I guess this could be the start of another thread?

TREEGODFATHER
05-31-2004, 10:05 AM
I spoke with Sgt. Kelley at the Brookfield Sate Police barracks (curiousity at work).

(Speaking relative to MA law...)
According to him, it does indeed require a CDL. The fact that it's not specifically excluded from the lower class D doesn't mean it's allowed, by nature of it being specified elsewhere in the rules. The only license class that specifically does allow towing a trailer in excess of 10,00 pounds is a class A CDL.


Since there may well be some variance from state to state, despite the supposedly universal CDL rules, I'd like to see other site members pose this question to their respective DMV's/etc and see what they have to say, for the benefit of other site members.

D Felix
05-31-2004, 10:39 AM
I don't have the book at home, but I'll try to remember to grab it at work tommorow and quote directly from it. As I read it and understand it, what I wrote earlier is the case in Indiana.

Here, we have CDL Class A, B, and C. No D. IIRC, Class A is for truck and trailer combinations exceeding 26,000 pounds, provided the trailer is rated above 10,000 pounds. Class B is for trucks exceeding 26,000 pounds, with no trailer, or trailers 10,000 pounds or less. Again, IIRC, a Class C is for a passenger-type vehicle carrying enough haz-mat to warrant placarding.

There is also a public-passenger chauffer's license, as well as a regular chauffer's license (which I hold). All the above licenses require a DOT physical, a standard operators license does not.

All this being said, it does not matter what the GVWR is, if it has air brakes, you need a CDL, with a few exceptions. Those exceptions are for vehicles registered as farm equipment, and for emergency vehicles (fire trucks). Those are specifically granted exceptions by state law.

Whew. I'll try to remember to find the CDL manual tommorow.

Oh, and around here, I doubt the state boys know what's what. We have to really worry about the Motor Carrier cops. They are the ones that can pull you over for no reason and ruin your day! And the DMV/BMV has no clue. They can't even give licenses to legals, let alone keep the laws straight!


Dan

TREEGODFATHER
05-31-2004, 10:49 AM
By comparison:

Air brakes here is a restriction, not an endorsement. So, as long as the vehicle doesn't require a CDL otherwise, the air brakes are irrelevant.

Example:

My short bucket truck, the 47 footer, has a GVWR of 20,000 pounds. It has air brakes. You can drive that with a class D, as long as you don't have the "vehicles without air brakes" restriction.

However, if it weighed OVER 26,000#, you'd need at least a class B cdl without the air brake restriction. If you get your CDL on a vehicle without air brakes, you'll have the restriction.

(note: I'm referring to true air brakes, not air-assisted hydrualic brakes.)

Ric
05-31-2004, 02:51 PM
Florida I have a Class D license good for 26,000 GVW. No CDL required and only a written (computer) test.

F 350 has 12,500 GVW therefore it can haul a 13,500 GVW trailer. However the trailer can only be 35 feet long.

Now Class E license which is the standard Drivers License is good only to 8,000 GVW. This means you should have a Class D to drive a 3/4 ton pick up. F 650 is still a class D but F 750 is a class C CDL license.

TREEGODFATHER
05-31-2004, 09:07 PM
Ric, what's FL say about air brakes?

Ric
05-31-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by TREEGODFATHER
Ric, what's FL say about air brakes?


Air Brakes you must have an endorsement. Now we have a F 9000 with a 24 ft flat bed and donkey fork lift piggy back. Class B CDL with air brakes is necessary to drive it. I have a partner in the sod business and he has the Class B with air brakes endorsement. Because he does not have the class A CDL license he can only pull a 20 ft trailer. However because of the Piggy back the truck can not pull a trailer. Yes the donkey forklift is just a little small for wet bahia sod but it handles St Augustine ok.

TREEGODFATHER
05-31-2004, 10:43 PM
Cool.

Any other states?

C'mon guys, have some fun.

FosterLawnscaping
06-01-2004, 09:41 AM
I have my class A which is combination over 26,000 pulling over 10,000 trailer. In PA you can drive a truck with air brakes as long as the truck is registered 26,000 or below. From what I understand anyone can pull a trailer over 10,000 pounds as long as the GCVW of the truck and trailer is under 26,000 pounds.

muddstopper
06-01-2004, 04:19 PM
Better read those trailer requirements again. Any trailer that weighs over 10,001 lbs does require a Class A cdl license. Federal not state laws. You can pull a trailer with a gross weight rating of 20 or 30 thousand lbs behind a lighter vehicle as long as the weight of the trailered load combined with the weight of the trailer doesnot exceed 10,001 lbs. Gross vehicle weight ratings are determined by the number of axles and the length of the truck or trailer. The state of NC does not reconize gvw weight ratings. Allowable weight is based on 20,000 lbs per axle even if it is a ford ranger that is used to hual the load. Wheel base plays a part also and since a ford ranger doesnt have the wheelbase to support 20,000 lbs it cant legaly hual the weight. Tongue weight also plays a part in the capacity of a trailer. The trailer can weight more than 10,001 lbs and still be legaly pulled without a Class A license because of the amount of weight that is transfered to the truck thru the hitch. But if you pull up to a set of scales and the weight of the trailer at the wheels is over 10,001 lbs You will get a ticket and the trailer will be parked until someone with a Class A license comes to pull it.
Class B license are required reguireless of the weight of the trailer if the combined weight of the truck and trailer is more than 26001 lbs. You can not pull a trailer that weights, at the axle, more than 10,001lb without a Class A CDL reguardless of the combined weight of the truck and trailer.

GeoffDiamond
06-01-2004, 05:48 PM
The bottom line is if you guys want to run with the big boys. Meaning trailers over 10K, and medium to heavy duty trucks, you got to play by the same laws as the big guys. That means you need a CDL there is no loop hole, the law was created to keep joe idiot from overloading his truck, and not being able to handle a heavy truck. You guys will need CDL drivers to play with the big toys. CDL drivers mean move money and better bennefits, you will need to pay them. If you guys pay a CDL driver 10 bucks an hour you will get what you pay for, just like if you pay someone 7 bucks to mow you do not get a good employee. If the guy has a CDL be ready to pay at least 12 and bennefits.

Geoff

TREEGODFATHER
06-01-2004, 07:43 PM
Oh, I'm all set... Class "A" w/ hazmat, air, and tank.

I was more curious on the different interpretations.

NC doesn't recognize GVWR's? That's kinda strange, because the federal regs go by exactly that. It would seem different states may be interpreting the federal standard differently, and that's why I wanted input from as many different places as possible.



Here you need a Class A for any trailer with a GVWR over 10,001#- even if it's empty and only weighs 1500#, because the "boys" go by GVWR-on the tag, not what you registered it for, either.

Alot of guys were trying to run 65'+ lifts with a 34,900+ GVW on a class D by merely registering it for it's unladen weight, keeping it empty, and using a seperate truck to chip into.

D Felix
06-01-2004, 08:24 PM
OK, I grabbed the CDL manual before I left work... I tried to scan the page with the info, but it didn't scan too well. So here it is....

For a Class A: "Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds"

For a Class B: "Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pound GVWR"

For a Class C: "Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of group A or group B as contained herein, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials"

Air brakes are not an endorsement from what I can tell. If the testing vehicle is NOT equipped with air brakes, the license must show an air brake restriction.

There are endorsements for "Combination vehicles with double or triple trailers" (T), "Vehicles used to haul liquids or gaseous materials in permanent tanks or in portable tanks having a rating capacity of 1,000 gallons or more" (N), passenger transport (P), hazardous materials (H), and tank vehicle with haz-mat (X).

All that info is taken from the Indiana State CDL Knowledge Test Booklet, put out by the Department of Revenue, dated 9-03. Info was found on page 8.

Now, from the Indiana Driver's manual:
Page 5 states for a chauffer license: "A chauffer license grants the same privileges as an operator license. In addition, it also permits the operation of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of at least sixteen thousand (16,000) but not more than twenty-six thousand (26,000) pounds (whether single vehicle or combined gross vehicle weight) when used to transport property for hire or as an employee. The chauffeur license does not authorize the holder to carry persons for hire, whether in a bus or a taxicab." The last sentence alludes to the fact that IN also has a "public passenger" license that you need to transport people...

Now, for what it says about CDL's: "A CDL is required to operate a commercial motor vehicle (as defined below)..........(sentence about CDL learner permit)..... A commercial motor vehicle is defined as one of the following: 1) a vehicle (or combination of vehicles operated together; e.g. a semi tractor-trailer) with a declared gross vehicle weight rating in excess of 26,000 pounds; 2) a vehicle designed to transport sixteen (16) or more persons, including the driver; or 3) a vehicle used to transport hazardous materials."

So there is some contradiction between the Indiana Driver's Manual and the CDL Knowledge Booklet. Since the DOR oversees the DOT, and the DOT is the one who will be writing the ticket for infractions on licenses, I will be going with the DOT requirements (for CDL's) here in Indiana.

Now, I believe that if you need a chauffeurs license to drive a commercial vehicle, you also need the vehicle to have DOT numbers, as well as annual inspections.

Also, as I stated earlier, if you have a chauffeurs license or a CDL, you also need a DOT phyiscal and a medical certificate. The medical certificate is only good for two years, whereas the license is good for four, so you can't let the certificate lapse....

It's interesting to see how each state varies, even just with minute details.....

And, AFAIK, it also does not matter what the plates are rated at, it matters what the GVWR is on the vehicle. I do know that the DOT has started to target "green industry" vehicles more in the last year here too....:(



Dan

muddstopper
06-02-2004, 09:22 PM
how about a web site that tells you the requirements.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safetyprogs/cdl.htm

D Felix
06-06-2004, 10:24 AM
Found out I was wrong about when you need DOT numbers. According to my boss, you must have numbers posted on the truck when the CGVWR is over 10,000. So, if you are pulling a single axle trailer rated at 3,500 pounds behind a normal 1/2 ton for commercial purposes, you need to have DOT numbers posted on the truck.............


Dan

muddstopper
06-06-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by TREEGODFATHER
Oh, I'm all set... Class "A" w/ hazmat, air, and tank.

I was more curious on the different interpretations.

NC doesn't recognize GVWR's? That's kinda strange, because the federal regs go by exactly that. It would seem different states may be interpreting the federal standard differently, and that's why I wanted input from as many different places as possible.



Here you need a Class A for any trailer with a GVWR over 10,001#- even if it's empty and only weighs 1500#, because the "boys" go by GVWR-on the tag, not what you registered it for, either.

Alot of guys were trying to run 65'+ lifts with a 34,900+ GVW on a class D by merely registering it for it's unladen weight, keeping it empty, and using a seperate truck to chip into.

States cannot entirely ignore Federal laws. They can make laws that are stricker than the federal laws. The example of the 20,000 lbs per axel instead of the GVW is an example. While NC doesnt reconize the GVW and goes by the 20,000 lbs per axel seems contradictory, it is in fact more restricting. For example, You have a truck that has a gvw of 34,000 lbs this would mean that the vehicle should be capable of hualing 34,000 lbs but in NC it can only hual the 34,000lbs if the weight at any one axle isnot over 20,000lb. this would meant that atleast 14,000 lbs is placed on the front axle of a regular 2 axle truck. If 14,000lbs cant be placed on the front axel then you cant hual the 34000lbs listed in the gvw. On tandem axle trucks you could place a total of 40,000 lbs on the rear axels and 20,000 on the front axle for a total of 60,000 lbs, but again if you cant place 20,000lbs on the front axle you cant hual 60,000lbs. Then you have to figure in the bridge laws and wheel base of the trucks. With these figured in to the equation even tho the truck has three axles and can hual 60,000 lbs the wheel base still might not allow it. On a regular two axle truck while it might be allowable to hual 40,000 lbs, the wheel base might prevent this, plus the problem of trying to get 20,000 lbs of the total weight placed on the front axle. All of this gets real confusing fast. It is best to talk to your DMV enforcement to get their interpretations of the CDL and weight limit laws.

D Felix
06-06-2004, 11:29 AM
Sounds like NY is a major PITA, and I'm not moving there any time soon....

I can somewhat understand the 20k per axle on larger trucks, but what about standard 1/2, 3/4, and 1 tons, and the heavier versions such as F450 and F550? All of those have GVWR less than 20k, so how do those rules apply there?


Dan

muddstopper
06-08-2004, 09:45 PM
I have never figured that out either, the Dot enforcement officer said I could still load the smaller trucks 20,000lbs per axle or a total of 40,000lbs as long as I had the proper tag for the weight, but who would want to? Never mind, I know there is someone somewhere that would try. I know there has to be a formula that would make the smaller trucks prohibited from such weights, wheel base or bridge laws ect. I just dont know what it is.

bnrhuffman
06-08-2004, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by FosterLawnscaping
I have my class A which is combination over 26,000 pulling over 10,000 trailer. In PA you can drive a truck with air brakes as long as the truck is registered 26,000 or below. From what I understand anyone can pull a trailer over 10,000 pounds as long as the GCVW of the truck and trailer is under 26,000 pounds.

This is correct. Foster it looks like you and I are alone in realizing that a CDL is not needed if the trailer is over 10000 as long as the combination is under 26000.
examples
- a truck with a GVWR of 12000 pulling a trailer with GVWR 0f 12000 = no CDL.

- a truck with a GVWR of 12000 pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 15000 = "A" CDL.

- a truck with a GVWR of 27000 pulling a trailer with GVWR of 9000 or no trailer at all = "B"CDL.

TREEGODFATHER
06-08-2004, 11:50 PM
Then why the varying "interpretations" from every cop you talk to?

D Felix
06-09-2004, 08:46 AM
Because none of them know what the law is on this. The only ones around here that remotely do are the Motor Carrier (DOT) cops. I doubt many of the state boys would even think about proper licensing unless they pulled you over in a semi and all you had was an operators license....



Dan

ikesleeping
06-09-2004, 09:14 AM
Hi I'm new but drive for a living for now and some times the law enforcement will check the load rating on the vehicles tires and use that rating which will result in a ticket! It's less about safety and more about revenue for the state. ikesleeping

muddstopper
06-09-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by bnrhuffman
This is correct. Foster it looks like you and I are alone in realizing that a CDL is not needed if the trailer is over 10000 as long as the combination is under 26000.
examples
- a truck with a GVWR of 12000 pulling a trailer with GVWR 0f 12000 = no CDL.

- a truck with a GVWR of 12000 pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 15000 = "A" CDL.

- a truck with a GVWR of 27000 pulling a trailer with GVWR of 9000 or no trailer at all = "B"CDL.

You are wrong, If the trailer weighs over 10,000 lbs you do need a Class A CDL, at least everywhere I have been checked.

muddstopper
06-09-2004, 11:13 PM
Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Taken from this site I posted earlier ; http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safetyprogs/cdl.htm

TREEGODFATHER
06-09-2004, 11:22 PM
I think that's where it gets a little grey...

My F350 has a GVWR of 10,000.

If I tow an 11,000 trailer, then by reading the above (which states exaclt the same as the Mass book), it would be legal without a class A, since the COMBINED GVWR's of both the trailer and the truck is only 21,000; well under the 26,000 mark.


However, any cop I've ever asked regards it as needing a class "A" cdl, because it's the only class that specifically states a towed vehicle over 10,000- thereby precluding it from the other classes by NOT mentioning it- ergo, law by default.

I suspect that has alot to do with the new 9900# GVWR landscape trailers coming out.

Loganwildman
06-10-2004, 02:32 PM
I just spoke with the motor carrier enforcement division here in Indiana, and was told that as long as the CGVWR is less then 26000, then all that is needed is a Indiana Chaffuers endorcement. Also, if the GVWR of the trailer or truck is over 10001 lbs. it is required to pass a dot inspection.

Now my question is; where can I find the requirements to pass the inspection? I have a 1 ton dump truck with a GVWR of 10500 and never had it inspected, so per what MCED just told me, I'd better be finding out PDQ.

D Felix
06-12-2004, 12:22 AM
Call the DOT again, and ask them. There's a form that you have to supply the person doing the inspection, and they have to fill it out. Ask them for information on where to get the forms. We cheated this year and got extras from an aquaintance at the phone company.:D

If you have DOT numbers, AFAIK, you have to have everything inspected. Trucks and trailers, any thing with a DOT number on it. Our 7,000 pound trailer was inspected this year, as well as our 12k trailer....


Dan

GeoffDiamond
06-12-2004, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by TREEGODFATHER
I think that's where it gets a little grey...

My F350 has a GVWR of 10,000.

If I tow an 11,000 trailer, then by reading the above (which states exaclt the same as the Mass book), it would be legal without a class A, since the COMBINED GVWR's of both the trailer and the truck is only 21,000; well under the 26,000 mark.


However, any cop I've ever asked regards it as needing a class "A" cdl, because it's the only class that specifically states a towed vehicle over 10,000- thereby precluding it from the other classes by NOT mentioning it- ergo, law by default.

I suspect that has alot to do with the new 9900# GVWR landscape trailers coming out.

Key word in this thing is TRAILER. If your trailer is 10,001 LBS or more you need a Class A CDL. The GVW of the truck does not matter, someone posted the guidelines for a CDL A and it comes down to trailer weight not truck weight. All state must adopt the Federal CDL standards meaning if the trailer is 10K or more you need a class A. States can make there regulations tougher, Vermount has different types of CDLs A. If you test in a tag trailer in vermont you can tow a 5 wheel, but if you test in a 5th wheel you can drive both.

The bottom line is quit trying to beat the system, get the correct licence. There is no loop hole its pretty simple 10K and you need a class A. Granted you can run with out one for years and probably get away with it.

Geoff

bnrhuffman
06-12-2004, 06:58 AM
I know the verbage is tough to interpret but this is incredible Here is a link from Michigan that says who needs a CDL pretty good. Those of you that think a 10000 lbs trailer is all that is required to need a CDL, read it close.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/1%2C1607%2C7-127-1627_8666_9060-21609--CI%2C00.html

This sums it up:
Single Vehicles - Having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)* of 26,001 pounds or more.



Combination Vehicles - Towing a trailer or other vehicles with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more when the gross combination weight rating (GCWR)** is 26,001 pounds or more

The key to that last sentence is (WHEN THE GCWR IS 26001lbs OR MORE)

I shouldnt harp on this because it doesnt really matter to me what you believe but I hate to see bad info passed on to others.

D Felix
06-12-2004, 10:02 AM
Those of you that think a 10000 lbs trailer is all that is required to need a CDL, read it close.
What you posted is pretty much exactly the same as what I posted earlier. What I posted was taken verbatim from the Indiana CDL manual.

I agree, I too hate to see bad info passed on. What it really boils down to though is each state is probably different, and everyone needs to check on their own laws themselves.


Dan

TREEGODFATHER
06-12-2004, 10:08 AM
That's the point of this thread- to hopefully shed some light on the issue.

As I said earlier, I'm all set either way.

snox
11-09-2005, 10:59 PM
OK, can anyone please tell me what size trailer I can pull with my F-350 and not require a CDl in Michigan. I am looking into buying a open gooseneck trailer for hauling cars as a business. I would like to get something that I can haul 2-3 cars at a time and was wondering if I would need a CDL to do so?
Thanks for any info!

bnrhuffman
11-10-2005, 02:30 AM
Im going to get grief over this answer but here it goes. As long as you stay under 26000 lbs GCWR (gross combined weight rating) you do not need a CDL. Take that to the bank. Many people will reply telling you that you will need a CDL to tow 10000+ GVWR trailer but thats just not true as long as you stay under 26000 combined.
Federal gov requires that you display USDOT number and maintain a physical if you are over 10000 GVWR or GCWR and travel interstate (from state to state). If you stay within your state, you are subject to their DOT laws and they vary.

hollywood
11-10-2005, 10:25 AM
I admit it is frustrating that the DOT laws vary from state to state. I hold a class B cdl with air brake (technically not an endorsement in MD, but a restriction). I decided to get legal after a good friend in the trade was stopped by the commercial vehicle inspection division of the MD state police. He was fined heavy and had to deal with major headaches and hassles. After witnessing this, I decided that it was time to get legal. There is a new law, at least in MD, that anyone operating a vehicle, commercial or not, over 10,001 GVW has to have a medical examination card. This card is good for two years. It is the same medical card required of cdl drivers.

GeoffDiamond said it best. If you want to run with big boys, you have to play by the rules. Excellent advice. Especially as it does seem that the green industry is under some scrutiny regarding these DOT and GVWR and cdl issues.

2004F550
11-10-2005, 10:54 AM
In CT we must follow the federal law because if you are pulling anything over 10,000 you need your A and your truck must have DOT numbers if the truck towing brings the combination over 26,001.......... Now many people around here run 12000# trailers tilt trailers etc without their CDL A because "we're just pulling with our pick-up" and they think thats legal....... they're in for a rude awakining at some point.

And one more thing I don't understand is that i'm 19 and have my CDL A w/ air brake and tank, I can move our D8 with the lowbed and the Mack.....but I can't drive a firetruck in my department but they let these no nothings drive them like maniacs who don't even have a CDL, just a endorsment on their license for Fire Appartus........i don't know.....politics i suppose

northeastpropertymgmt
11-10-2005, 11:29 AM
What is the class that u can drive big rigs. now if u have a class like that does thast mean that u can drive any kind of truck bisides hazmat.

Guthrie&Co
11-10-2005, 11:09 PM
In nc if the trailer has a gvwr of 10.001lbs or more you need a classified a license. also a med card, and you need to run a log book. not to mention a federal inspection of the truck and trailer.
recreational vehicles are included under this law. i.e campers

PSUturf
11-13-2005, 06:37 PM
I lived in Lansing until last year and pulled a trailer rated at 12000# gvw. I had to have a Class A cdl to pull this. The people at the motor vehicle office told me this. The Ingham County Weighmaster also said the same thing.

For any trailer rated over 10000# you have to have an annual safety inspection of the trailer and any vehicle that pulls the trailer. Most repair shops that work on semis, dump trucks, etc can do this. They will issue a sticker ,if it passes, which must be displayed on the vehicle and trailer.

Enforcement of Motor Carrier rules varies by jurisdiction. I talked to a MI State Trooper who said that they definitely enforce these rules but local police usually don't. Some county weighmasters do and some don't.