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3d2r
06-07-2004, 04:29 PM
This person wants me to trim 30 to 35 oak trees. There about 15' to 30' tall can someone give me advise on how to price them in trimming, loading, unloading and hauling them.

neal-wolbertsinc
06-08-2004, 01:40 AM
What do you mean by trimming? Neal

3d2r
06-08-2004, 01:42 PM
This guy just bought a house that has been vacant for 3 years and landsaping is horrible. He has trees with old limbs, moss,
low hanging and even dead trees. So basically shape up the trees nice and pruned

TREEGODFATHER
06-08-2004, 07:17 PM
Best bet is to sub it out to an arborist. He'll have the climbers, chipper, and experience.

I work for alot of landscapers who sub such work out, and it has worked out best for all involved.

D Felix
06-08-2004, 09:41 PM
See my reply to your other post. Apparently you double posted and I didn't know it.


Dan

EagleLandscape
06-09-2004, 12:19 AM
Man. 35 trees. I'd take that deal. If you've got a good saw and the proper safety equipment to climb, more power to you.

(I have all the safety equipment because I rock climb, so thats my case).

30-35 trees is alot of wood. Figure out a plan on removing it. Can you transport all the branches to one part of the property and then chip them into a pile, or if the customer wants them hauled offsite, the best economical decision is to get someone to come chip/haul them for you.

I have a minimum for 70 per tree. Tree trimming for me to run around up there with a saw / pole saw will add an additional 70 bucks per hour. Hope this helps.

If you've never done climbing such as this before, save your life and sub it out and make a NICE profit on it. Trying something for the first time and running the risk of being seriously injured or dying isn't worth the risk. I've just been climbing for the past 8 years so it's somewhat second nature to my little monkey body:-D

TREEGODFATHER
06-09-2004, 12:55 AM
Pole saw??

Damn, you must do well. I only get a measly $135 per crew hour for "running around up there with a saw".

FYI, if you have a climber show up with spikes to do a pruning, send away and FAST. Those things are for removals only.

o-so-n-so
06-09-2004, 01:05 AM
If you have never been in a tree with a saw before..............You better sub it out or you'll get hurt bad.

It takes 2 hands to run a saw of any size....enough said.

treegodfather is right on it.

TREEGODFATHER
06-09-2004, 01:11 AM
Proper pruning is an art. Arborists have to envision the tree as it will look 20 or 30 years down the road; not just how it looks as it's trimmed today. I see a LOT of trees that look like heck because a landscaper took it upon themselves to "prune" and make a few bucks.

Not knocking 'scapers (I wouldn't know where to begin to do HALF the awesome looking work you guys do), but it's two different professions.

EagleLandscape
06-09-2004, 01:41 AM
Are you saying my rates are a little low? I figured they are about as low as can be. But again, I probably don't get as much done as you do.

And in no way would I ever, EVER, use spikes for climbing a living tree (that was going to stay alive).

Just my regular boots and harness and my webbing.

Then either one of my two ropes (static or dynamic) and a figure 8 or an atc for descending.

I've got a nice pair of petzl ascenders that can get me to any height pretty fast.

http://www.mgear.com/pages/product/product.asp/level1_id/0/level2_id/0/level3_id/0/item/103052/level2_title/
http://www.mgear.com/item_images/mnfct/Common/Petzl/L_103052.jpg

polecat63
06-09-2004, 06:39 AM
Uh, you climb trees with rock climbing gear? I'll pray that nothing ever happens that draws the attention of OSHA. That gear is way underated for tree work so be careful.

TREEGODFATHER
06-09-2004, 10:08 AM
Static line has no use in tree climbing. Our ropes are designed with ample stretch to keep you from coming to a bone-shattering halt in the event of a fall.

Ropes used in rocking or caving aren't well suited generally, either. Most won't take well to a friction hitch such as a Blake's or TLH.

polecat, ascenders have their place, usually on long ascents, but I can't think of much other "rock" gear that comes even close to having any use; be it saddles, ropes, grabs, etc.


Best bet is to use puropse-suited ropes, such as New England Ropes safety-blue, Arborplex (yuck), Samson Blue-Streak or the like.

TREEGODFATHER
06-09-2004, 10:20 AM
jwingfield2k,

Actually I think you're about average. But that's just an opinion, since I'm not familiar with your demographics and I figure you're probably working alone (a bad idea when climbing, though). I get $135 per crew hour, which means a climber, a groundman, and the truck & chipper.

{If the fuel keeps going up at the rate it's going, I'll be up-ing that pretty soon! SHEESH!}

Re: pole saws- I find they have very limited use. It's far easier for me to just go out a little further with the Zubat and make a nice clean cut, than to try and use the pole saw and make a bad one, since you can rarely get it in the right position to make a nice clean collar.

Unless I'm removing big limbs, or making alot of 4" or better cuts, the Zubat works well, and lets me enjoy a certain degree of tranquility while climbing.

EagleLandscape
06-09-2004, 11:06 AM
I'm assuming a grab or whatnot is the same thing as stirrups possibly. I typically use my dynamic rope, and it's 11.5mm.

And I use webbing, and not rope when I am climbing stuff that isn't too bad. The only time I ascend with the rope is when i am doing a straight vertical ascend. Other than that, I just clip the webbing up as a go, around a branch, and then onto my harness. Once I get than the one I just clipped, I clip another, and then undo the first one. ANd proceed until I get to where I need to be.

EagleLandscape
06-09-2004, 11:11 AM
This gear is not under-rated my friend. Stuff like this takes better beatings than what tree climbers put their gear through. Plus, theres alot more researach that goes into making quality climbing gear then tree climbing gear. I'm positive of that. I've taken 10-15 foot falls (that means a total of 20-30 downward travel) on climbing gear before, and I am perfectly fine. I would be afraid to take a good loaded fall with tree gear.



Originally posted by polecat63
Uh, you climb trees with rock climbing gear? I'll pray that nothing ever happens that draws the attention of OSHA. That gear is way underated for tree work so be careful. http://rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=32699

D Felix
06-12-2004, 12:07 AM
Do you have any idea what the ANSI standards are for tree gear? Eric can correct me on this (I could go look at my Sherills catalogue, but I'm too lazy this time of night), but I believe the minimum that ANY ONE PART of the system must be rated at is 5500 pounds. At a 10:1 SWL margin, that provides for loads in the 550 pound range. Some of the climbing ropes that are on the market are rated in excess of 9000 pounds. I doubt you will find a rock rope that high.

There is probably just as much research put into arborist gear as there is for rock climbing. Possibly more, since there is actually published standards for arboriculture. When a piece of equipment fails and it results in, heaven forbid, a death, there is an investigation. I don't think that happens with rock climbing. Day in and day out, I would be willing to bet that more lives are hanging in trees than are hanging on the side of a cliff.

There's a reason that ANSI Z133 was developed. There's a reason why Buckingham, Arbormaster, and Weaver all make arborist saddles and not rock harnesses. There's a reason why, well, I could go on and on.

Point is, go to http://www.wtsherrill.com and order a catalogue. Look at EVERYTHING from cover to cover, read every word, and realize you are in OVER your head with just rock gear. Order the Jepson book, it's $15 well spent if you are even thinking about climbing trees.

And go over to AS (http://www.arboristisite.com ) and do some reading. Be sure to read through the Injuries and Fatalities section. That alone should tell you to be careful....


Dan

EagleLandscape
06-12-2004, 03:06 AM
k, I'll check it out. I was at the dealer today looking at professional tree ropes, but couldnt find a price tag on them.

D Felix
06-12-2004, 10:07 AM
Just realized that I had a typo in a previous link. AS is found at http://www.arboristsite.com . I had one too many "i"s in the previous link. Sorry.

If you are serious about tree climbing, my suggestion would be to get the Sherrills catalogue and read it, as well as the Jepson book. Then start low and slow, as what is contained in those two are different than the methods you currently use.

HTH.


Dan

polecat63
06-13-2004, 08:08 AM
Thank you , Dan. You are correct about the 5500 pound min. requirment (hmmm, it might be 5400). My ropes have handled wood in excess of 2000 lbs. without so much as a squeek. Your climbing ropes would have snapped just thinking about that kind of load. Think about your life, man. Don't play around with something that can easily kill you. We had three VERY experienced climbers die here last year, so be careful. If you're goin to climb tree use the right equipment.
As for price...you should be able to get a good climbibg rope and a bull rope for a few hundred dollars. Go to this site and check it all out.

http://www.wtsherrill.com/

TREEGODFATHER
06-13-2004, 10:08 AM
Polecat, you're correct- it's 5,400 pounds.


Also, try http://www.okarboristsupply.com. The pricing is better than Sherrill.

DFelix- ditto.



Rocking gear is pretty well-made, but it's made for a wholly different purpose.

When it comes to the ropes in particular, they're made much more abrasion resistant. The problem is, that very process makes the rope difficult to use in trees applications. Knots uin general are harder to tie and dress. Climbing hitches don't grab as well, unless you switch to a VT or prussic. Knots like the TLH, and the Blake's don't grab worth a darn.

EagleLandscape
06-13-2004, 02:46 PM
Buddy, climbing ropes can hold up to alot. Taking a 200lb guy and with a 60-70 foot straight drop. I forget how to do the KN rating and such, but I'll look into it. But I know they're hold more than 2000 lbs. Easy. Anyways, I climb with webbing, not ropes. I use the ropes to descend if I need to get something on the ground real fast or what not.

Guy's I'm not saying climbing stuff is better than tree gear, I know the tree gear yall use is better. All I'm saying is climbing gear is good ENOUGH for the job, while still keeping me perfectly safe. And if I'm safe, thats what I need.

Originally posted by polecat63
Thank you , Dan. You are correct about the 5500 pound min. requirment (hmmm, it might be 5400). My ropes have handled wood in excess of 2000 lbs. without so much as a squeek. Your climbing ropes would have snapped just thinking about that kind of load. Think about your life, man. Don't play around with something that can easily kill you. We had three VERY experienced climbers die here last year, so be careful. If you're goin to climb tree use the right equipment.
As for price...you should be able to get a good climbibg rope and a bull rope for a few hundred dollars. Go to this site and check it all out.

http://www.wtsherrill.com/

EagleLandscape
06-13-2004, 02:50 PM
checked out that wt site. Alot of the gear is made by the same companies. ie Petzl. And what that website calls "runners" are what us climbers call quickdraws or slings. Alot of the stuff is basically the same. Yall call it a rescue 8, we call it a figure eight.

The only thing I notice that is different is the ropes.

two_planks
06-13-2004, 06:46 PM
A lot of the equipment that Petzl and other companies that make equipment is exactly the same for climbing trees and climbing rocks ie figure eights, carrabiners, etc. My rock ropes are more dynamic than my tree ropes (I use RAR, radical arborist rope for trees). As far as I know the strength and construction of the ropes are almost identical. Take the sheath off of either rope and you won't be able to tell the difference. Arborist rope is not as dynamic as climbing rope and it has a different type of sheath on it that is much more abrasion resistant (so that it can handle a not like a blakes hitch). A good climbing rope can be used like a tree rope but it will wear out much faster and foot for foot arborist rope is a bit cheaper than rock rope. I pay $1.10 Canadian for my RAR ($220 for a 200' rope) My Maxim dry rope cost around $250 Canadian. But the Maxim rope would only last about 2 months in the trees where as the RAR lasts closer to a year. Climbing harnesses are designed to hold just as much wieght as a tree saddle but the are only designed to hold that weight one way (straight up from the center front of the harness) where a tree saddle will support loads from multiple directions ( A climbing harness probably wouldn't support the forces caused by a splitting trunk for example). The other problem with a rock harness is that you only have one place to tie off from so things can get very cluttered very fast. You should at least invest in a saddle and learn how to tie a blakes hitch or some other friction not that you can descend on What happens when you are dependent on your 8 or atc to get out of a tree and whenyour 80' off the ground and realise that you left it in the truck (I learned this one the hard way and am very lucky to be alive). You should now how to use a friction not for rock climbing as well. Sorry for the long winded reply but I though I'd chip in my .02

As far as price goes I charge $85/ hour for climbers and $35/ hour for groundsmen. I sub out my chipping to another company he charges me $70/ hour for two men and a chipper and I charge it out at $95/ hour.

polecat63
06-15-2004, 09:17 PM
I'm not doubting that your equipment id perfectly safe...for it's intented purpose. Two-planks' post gives many of the reasons for using tree specific equipment for tree work. ANSI specs are very exact when it comes to tree work, and if you have an accident and OSHA shows up (and they will) your insurance most likely will not cover you if you are using improper equipment.
Also, I would not use a rock climbing rope for rigging (heck, I don't even use mine and it's rated at 8,400 lbs.) When I said I've rigged wood in excess of 2000 lbs I meant it went from 60' to ground leven almost as fast as you would fall (man, I remeber the first time I used a speedline, scared the crap outa me!:D ) ANd not so much as a burn on the rope. I'm just letting you know that your equipment is not suited for tree work. Don't let pride take your life.

D Felix
06-16-2004, 10:11 AM
Here's another question for you:

Are you insured to be off of the ground?

Most landscaping insurance policies do not cover tree climbing, unless you specifically ask for that coverage. Then it's more $$$$. I've seen posts over on AS where some of those guys were quoted $10k or more for a year's worth of appropriate coverage


Dan

bottlefed89
06-16-2004, 02:26 PM
My tree insurance is only about $1000 more than landscaping. Just for comparison. Even if they were rated the same(and mine aren't) I could comfortably spend about 10 times more time in my tree saddle than any rock harness I've been in.

polecat63
06-16-2004, 09:38 PM
When I was doing trees my insurance was only about $1000 more per year, but my Workers Comp was through the roof.