Heavy Clover Problems

[mc1169]

Background:

Purchased the home about 4 months ago. Lawn is original, so it's about 50 years old (I'm assuming). The property is in South Eastern PA (Philly). In April I applied Scotts Turf Builder With Halts Crabgrass Preventer.

As you'll be able to see from the pics I'll post later tonight, it doesn't seem to have helped much. I have not applied any weed and feed since. I was getting ready to do the next step in the program (Turf Builder With PLUS 2 Weed Control) but I received an ad from TG/CL in the mail offering a fairly good deal. (Lawn is just under 15,000 sq.ft. they offer $49 per application, recommended 4-6 per year, first one is $30).

Question:

I've read through the site and see that many of you don't like TG/CL because they use quick greening techniques, etc. So here's the question: 1) Based upon the pictures (which I'll post tonight and also the fact that there is heavy clover and some crabgrass), do you think I should use TG/CL? 2) Should I continue my own program with Scott's (or Lesco as many of you suggest) and 3) If I proceed with either TG/CL or my own program will applying a weed killer brown a good portion of my lawn for the entire summer? --if so, should I skip the weed killer and just apply fertilizer and wait to the fall for the weed killer?

Thanks!

[mc1169]

Lawn Pic 1, big view. More to follow...

[mc1169]

Second Pic. Better close up. One more or two more after this...

[mc1169]

Not only do I have clover but also this ugly stuff...

[dvmcmrhp52]

TGCL will get your lawn looking better much quicker than using granular fert yourself.
I just don't like their business practices.
It seems as though you've got as many weeds as grass by your pics so be prepared for seeding and such if you actually want a lawn.
Liquid apps of herbicides and ferts are much faster acting and in the case of herbicides much more effective.
If you don't use TGCL try someone else that does liquid apps for the next year,after that it can be reasonably maintained by using scotts or other granular type ferts.

[MikeLT1Z28]

to get rid of clover you really need a broadleaf herbicide, that's usually only available in liquid and only to commercial sprayers. you might see if you have a lesco or a farmers co-op nearby that is willing to sell it to you, but you have to know how to apply it. check with local laws about applying these types of chemicals also.

[mc1169]

If I apply a broadleaf herbicide, or if TG/CL does it for me, should I expect a lot of browning? I don't want my lawn to look like crap for the entire summer.

Thanks!

[TLS]

Call up TGCL, Tell them to service you.

After they do, call up and say your not happy. They may offer a follow up app. Take it if its several weeks after their first.

Then HARD cancel them and ask for a FULL refund.

Then in Sept put down a weed and feed (Scotts, whatever), follow that with a straight fert app in Dec.

Do a good overseed in October.

Plan on starting your first round of Crabgrass in March next year, and go from there.


Make sure you point out to TGCL your concern about the oxials, buckhorn, clover and ground ivy. They're all VERY hard to kill.

[mc1169]

Thanks for the help everyone however now I have the following 2 questions:

1) IF TGCL comes and sprays there stuff, should I expect a good portion of my lawn to brown

2) Do I overseed in the fall--and if so, what tools should I use for this? Suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Matt

[TLS]

If they spray, the weeds will slowly wilt and die. It's not an instant brown like Round-Up.

The existing grass that you DO have will get a good shot of Nitrogen and help it to spread and thicken.

You can either rent a slit seeder, or simply hand rake to loosen soil, or rent an aerator then overseed.

Apply a starter fert. with this seed.

Good Luck.

Look at it this way. Which do you prefer, a green weedy lawn or a sparce but improving weed free lawn.

You may even be happy with TGCL. They've screwed me plenty, so I have no sympathy. That's why I recommended taking advantage of their money back policy.

Good Luck

[mc1169]

Well I called TGCL and they came out and applied the product--WHEN IT WAS RAINING HARD. WTH? Won't it just run right off?

[dvmcmrhp52]

If it was raining it was useless if they used a herbicide,they may have just ferted your lawn.
Check the invoice or call them,if they did put herbicide on you now know why they have the reputation.

[Cutters Lawn Care]

If you put down a weed and feed in September and overseed in October you wasting your money. You need to wait 12 weeks after putting down a herbicide before overseeding.

[TLS]

Dude, 12 weeks is 3 months. You dont have to wait 1/2 that time.

If it was a Pre-M app, then MAYBE, but not a straight 3way.

[mc1169]

So is the consensus that since they applied the herbicide when it was raining that it was useless? Thanks guys!

[TLS]

Not a TOTAL waste, but not IDEAL from any angle.

Wait a week and see if you have any curl. Or do you have any now?

[mc1169]

Curl? I am assuming that you are talking about weeds starting to die? If so, it does look like some of them are not as healthy as they use to be--which is a good thing.

The good news is that TGCL said they would not charge me as I did not authorize. I'm going to see if I can get another application out of them for free, plus I'm going to try and negotiate the $49 per application down to around $40 (about 14,000sq.ft.). Does that sound about right?

Thanks!

[TLS]

Less than 14K sq/ft. Thats about the going rate. Thats probably their minimum charge.

You'll have to wait a few weeks for a re-app. Unless we get a LOT of good soaking rains like we did last night.

Most of the weeds that you DO have are tough to kill. You'd probably only see effects of curl on the buckhorn. Long tall shoots with a seed head on top. That ground ivy and such is real tough to kill, and likely should be a spot treat job.

Good Luck.

[dondinct]

I had (still have) heavy clover that seemed to really spread this year. I hosed it down with ortho weed be gone..... the clover is starting to curl and die (it took about a week). the regular grass is growing up where the clover was smothering it. I have 14,000 sq feet, but only large spots of clover... an $8 bottle of the stuff took care of my yard. Of course, it will take another month for the clover to die off and have the grass look good again. I should have treated it sooner !

[mc1169]

TLS, do you service the Malvern Area? Thanks to all who posted! I'll follow-up with some pics at the end of the summer...

[Aproct]

The only other possibility is to spot app the clover with an application of horsepower. I have been having a problem this year with the clover on my other properties that I do applications for. The broadleaf granular that I applied this time did not give me a kill percentage that I was happy with. So I have been applying the horsepower to individual patches of clover and other broadleaf, like the planation that you showed in your photos.

Great results!

This is why you need to do both granular and liquid apps....

[TLS]

mc1169,

No, I don't service the Malvern area. I feel that whole main line area is SATURATED with LCO's as it is. Plus it's just too far for me to drive.

All my customers are in ONE zip code!

I'm between Pottstown and Norristown.

[kuku]

Get ahold a yard sprayer pull behind and use a product called "Triamek" I think it is spelled like that. Works wonders on clover and any other broadleaf. I got it from a local Coop

[mc1169]

Well guys thanks so much for all your help. My lawn is looking much better. I have to say that TG/CL did a fairly good job controlling the weeds, etc.

Now that we are approaching Fall I am planning on overseeding the lawn (the first week of Sept).

Home Depot had a great sale on seed and fertilizer so this is what I bought:

- Scotts Contractor's Mix Grass Seed (North) (mixture of perennial rye, Kentucky bluegrass, fine fescue and annual ryegrass)

- Scotts 20-27-5 Starter Fertilizer

So now the questions: The lawn is old, probably in the 50 year or more category. I want to have a nice full lawn next year so in what order should I do the following?

-Core aerate
-Slitseeder
-Fertilize

Or is that the right order...

Thats it for now.

Thanks again!

PS: I'll post pics when I have a few spare minutes...

[TKV]

I have a few comments on your problem and in general...

Clover is a legume(like a bean), it's nitrogen fixing in the soil
thru a conversion process from oxygen. It will grow
best in a poorly fertilized yard. An easy long term way to keep clover at bay is to fertilize your lawn sufficently thruout the
year. The only easily available herbicide that will control clover
is Salts of Dicamba. It is mobile in the soil and can be taken up
by clover roots and much more effectively kill the plant.
It is one of the ingredients in Trimec-branded herbicide or
Ortho Weed-B-Gone.
With the clover well established, it will take quite a while
for a combination of fertilizing and spraying to rid the yard
of clover.
I do not think your yard is healthy enough (from the pictures)
to both slit-seed and Core Aerate it at the same time.
Choose one or the other( I'd go Core Aerating) but regardless
fertilize the lawn at least twice, you could even dormant feed in late november. Now is the time to fertilize heavily because
the shortening daylight prompts the plant to grow roots / store
energy as opposed to lush top growth, so you won't have to mow as much as with heavy fertilizing in the spring.
The fertilizer you have will NOT cut it for this task. Look for something a little higher quality than Scott's. Landscaping
stores should have something better.
Hope this helps.

Tom

[TSM]

Mc1169, thanks for the invite to comment on your situation.

I had been reading this thread....when i read where someone suggested 'using' TG/CL, then call for a free retreat, then cancel and refuse to pay....thats when i decided to opt out of responding.

But anyway TKV has given you some sound advice. If it were my property I'd also go with the core aeration/overseed.

By the way....looks like a nice piece of property from your first pictures, though weeds were a problem i feel it is a very workable lawn.

I dont have a problem with the scotts fert you picked up. the seed mix sounds ok as well...assuming the content of annual rye is very low.

So, yeah, I'd get out there now and mow the lawn very short then with a core aerator go over the lawn a couple of times, then broadcast your seed, make one more pass with the aerator (be a good idea to lightly rake the lawn at this point to be sure the seed has decent contact with the soil) then do your fert. WATER daily for best germination.

Follow up in about 4-5 weeks with fert (no weed controls on newly germinated turf) Then do a late fall feeding.

Set yourself up with a fert/weed control program for next season. You should be fine.

Good luck

[TKV]

Just to clarify my above comment on Scott's
I have two problems with the fertilizer,
one is the ratio, I prefer something in
the fall on the order of 18-18-18 or 10-16-20
for maximum root growth. Others time of the year 20-27-5 may
be OK.
In adddition this particular blend of fertilizer
has a big percentage of water-insoluable and
even hot-water insoluable nitrogen and by the time
it pops and microbially degrades (in cool fall weather) into plant usuable forms it will be christmas time. Figuratively speaking.
I'd look for something with more readily available nitrogen
sources like urea or even better higher percentage of ammonical
nitrogen so it can work now rather than under snow cover.
with Fall's cooler temp's you could even get awat with using a
Muriate of Potash for quicker availablity even with new seedlings.
Ironically, IMO this is the one time of year when having TG/CL
spraying your yard would actually work OK, their powder
based fertilizer / Weed killer pops very fast in the soil.
Thats a good thing in the fall unless of course you like
your Slow-Release Coated fertilizer feeding snow mold in the winter.

[mc1169]

TKV,

Thanks for your input! My next feeding with TG/CL is scheduled to occur probably the week of 16th or 23rd...they say this one is important "to fend of summer insects, etc".

So the question is, if I let them come and spray, will this hurt my new seedlings which I plan on slitseeding in early Sept.?

Also, do I really core aerate then seed? I want to be sure I'm not wasting my $$$. I was planning on core aerating, wait two weeks, then slitseed...what are your thoughts...

Lastly...should I switch to a Lesco product?

Thanks again!

[TKV]

To answer your questions in order....

have you noticed a pest / bug problem in your yard???widespread spraying with pesticides when not needed
is usually not a good idea, especially with kids or pets
in the immediate household. If you have a bug problem that
needs attention then feel free.
Fertilizing and even having them spray again for weeds
would be fine during that time though and I would say
have them come out.

In answer to your specific question, no the pesticide will
not hurt your seedlings. The weed killer should be OK
also since it will take you a a couple of weeks to complete your work AND a couple more for the grass to germinate and sprout.

For this fall, I would just Core Aerate and spread some seed
over that and fertilize and water. The slit seeder will tear up your lawn again almost immediately after you aerated, it might be a bit much. I would save the Slit Seeding until spring for a couple
good reasons that we can discuss another time.
I know you are in a hurry, but it took a long time for your yard
to deteriorate, it will take a while to bring it back. Don't try to get
too fancy or aggressive with it, would be my advice.

Lesco makes good fertilizer products, look for a fall mixture
though, that was my point.
Lesco, Greenpower, Clesens, Vigaro all make good homeowners
grade fertilizers (and many others I've forgotten).
Some of the Scotts products are also very good, my complaints
are with the 'homeowner' versions with the 100% money back
guarantee. The only way to make that 'guarantee' is to make the products um...let's say a little bland.
And that is coming from someone who worked closely with Scott's and moved to Vigaro to help develop their IBDU products.

Tom

[mc1169]

TKV,

I can't seem to find any fertilizer with that balance of nutrients...can you perhaps point me in the right direction?

18-18-18 or 10-16-20

Thanks!

Matt

[TSM]

Originally posted by TKV
Some of the Scotts products are also very good, my complaints
are with the 'homeowner' versions with the 100% money back
guarantee. The only way to make that 'guarantee' is to make the products um...let's say a little bland.


I am not really qualified to answer to the scotts choice of fert., i have no experience with their homeowner products. TKV definately sounds more qualified.
I was a bit taken when they have a 20-27-5 and call it a starter fert. Kinda low on the K (5) I'd say.

Though I would still do the aeration/overseed now (assuming daily watering is a doable task where you are...no water bans, etc. and that you are experiencing a cooler than normal summer as we are here in MA)

I'd also keep in mind that all you are doing now (this season) is in preperation for next season.

[TKV]

Look for a 'Fall' label on the bag, that should be sufficent,
it will probably be 18-8-18 or something close if you can't find
what I mentioned.
I operate in the 'ideal' world where getting exactly what I want
custom mixed is not a problem, I didn't mean to be so precise
to confuse you.

I know ACE / True Value and Home Depot all have Fall fertilizers out right now in my area and you may want to check large
flower / nursury type places as they occasional have
bag's of fertilizer available in better formulas.

Good Luck.

[TKV]

I just checked around some and Vigoro has 12-8-16 fall
fertilizer available at some Home Depot's - at least in IL.

GreenView has a fall fertilizer that is available at many ACE hardware stores in my area right now also, maybe by you???

Happy Hunting!!

[mc1169]

Pic #1--See the stuff on the right...what kind of grass is that...or is it a weed? It's very annoying beacuse it's light green in color and really contrasts the other grass in my lawn...

[mc1169]

Front of house...

[mc1169]

Side of house...that's a persimmions tree...FYI

[mc1169]

Is this Bahia grass? I have a lot of this in my lawn whatever it is..and quite frankly..I don't like it...

[mc1169]

Maybe this is Bahia...can't quite tell...

[mc1169]

Just grass...with one weed

[Lawn Sharks]

Forget TG, go and buy a big bottle of Ortho Weed B Gone. Also buy a metered sprayer that hooks onto your hose and set it for the correct rate (2 oz gallon). Spray your whole yard. You can kiss all the weeds and clover good bye with one app. For about 12 bucks for WBG and $12 for the sprayer you have done what the $49 herbicide treatment from TG did and you still have a sprayer to apply stuff.

Next, find a Lesco dealer and deal with them for seed, fertilizer etc. More knowledgeable. Better prices than most. Also, they can do a soil test. Good idea.

I do organic but sometimes you see people get caught up with TG and multiple options from Scott's etc. for weeds. If a homeowner's lawn is over 50% weeds and they want fast results I mention Weed B Gone. Getting a lawn in prime shape organically takes a bit of time.

Aeration, fert., and overseeding will make you lawn golf course beautiful. The reason you have so much clover (I like a little clover in my lawn) is that it is lacking in nutrients.

[mc1169]

Keth,

Thanks for the input. I think your right about the Weed-B-Gone....Chemlawn has been coming for almost 3 months now and the lawn does look better, but I think I could do as good or even better--for much less.

I'm lucky enough to have a Lesco dealer within 10 minutes of my home.

Thanks again to all.

One last point: can anyone help me identify my grass?

Also, the scotts seed I bought has composition of the following:

29% Annual Gulf Rye
29% Creeping Red Fescue
29% Another kind of rye...don't remember
13% Kentucky Blue

Should I go with a different seed for overseeding or is this sufficient?

Thanks again!!!!

[TSM]

from what i could see in your pictures you have a blend of rye, blue, fescueand I thought I saw some bentgrass as well.

the scotts mix you have, well, you could do better.
29%annual rye- of course you know annual means it will only be around one season- so 29% is very high

you seem to have a sunny lawn for the most part, bluegrasses will do well in that environment.I'd suggest a 1/3 blue, 1/3 rye. 1/3 fescue seed mix. Lesco has this blend, i believe they call it their 'athletic blend'.

Keep in mind bluegrasses are slow germinators, you'll need to be patient. Also when overseeding an established lawn the lawn mower can be a problem. the seed will need good soil to seed contact for germination, a mower can disturb that contact. I'd mow the lawn as short as possible before seeding and hold off on mowing until plenty of new seedlings are visable.

have fun!

[TKV]

I agree with TSM, I think you could do much
better with your grass seed selection. I would also see what
the Lesco dealer in your area has available.

I'd lean towards a bigger percentage of KB in your
mix due to your sunny location overall.

Tom

[Lawn Sharks]

I agree. go with something that is KB and some chewings and creeping red fescue. I hate Rye but that is just me.

[mc1169]

I spoke with my local Lesco rep (whose name was Will Lesco--I wonder if he's the owner) and he suggested the team mates mix which is 90% tall Fescue and 10% perennial rye.

He also suggested Momentum as a post-emergent broadleaf killer. However do to the price, I think I'll try Weed-B-Gone first...

Honestly guys, is the Lesco seed that much better or can I get just any seed blend with the above suggested grass types?

Thanks,

Matt

[TSM]

Matt, seed is seed. Lesco does have (i hate saying this because i dont like lesco) a nice seed mix. But just read the label of any seed. you want low weed content (obviously), also check the date on the label, you dont want seed that has been sitting on the shelf for years.

that tall fescue, rye mix lesco recommended (another reason why i dont like lesco), both those grass types are 'bunch' types. you will not get any lateral growth as you will will bluegrass (strong rhizome growth habit)

the other thing i meant to mention earlier, after looking at your pictures....when is the last time you sharpened your mowing blade? Looked like you had some 'tearing/shreading' going on. That will greatly increase the potential for turf disease problems (red thread inparticular) and/ or insect (chinch bug, sod webworm)

all in all, you seem to be on the right track. personally i wouldnt wait to seed until next month, i'd do it now...if you have the time and watering is something you can do daily. Soil temps are at it's warmest now- good for germination. Here in New England we have had a cooler than normal summer (so far) that might not be the case in PA.
Anyway, good luck

[TKV]

I'd stick with KB for your yard, some of the new improved
(especially dwarf) varieties of tall fescue are nice but...
I would not use the mix he recommended.

You CAN use any premium seed with a variety of bluegrass
blends in it, all you want to check is the date (fresh) and pick
a blend with very low weed %
You would be amazed at how many weeds you'll get with even
a low appearing weed % on the label.

Looking at your pictures, I think you have the baskin-robbins
31 flavors grass collection going on, I see at least 5.
Keeping the blade sharp is a good idea, although with your
grass mix about all you'd have to worry about is the grass
looking a little less green with the ragged tips.

[GripB]

Been following this thread. I'm aerating/overseeding my lawn Labor Day weekend. Question: Is Kentucky Blue the only grass type with lateral growth...rhizomes? I'm considering Lesco's Tuf-Turf: 90% premium turf-type tall fescue and 10% Kentucky Blue.

[TKV]

Grasses grow with one of two basic forms, or habits. Stolons (aboveground spreading stems) and rhizomes (belowground spreading stems) allow grass plants to spread horizontally. Grasses that grow via stolons or rhizomes are termed spreading grasses.

Other grasses lack stolons and rhizomes. These grasses grow in slowly expanding bunches and are termed bunch-type grasses. All major warm-season turfgrasses are spreading types, as are bentgrasses and bluegrasses. Most fescues and ryegrasses are bunch-type species(notably Red Fescue though has rhizomes)

Since you are not planting a putting green or teebox, Bent grass
is out and you are left with primarily bluegrasses as the cool-season spreading option.

Tom

[mc1169]

Ok gents, I went out this evening and returned what I bought and this is what I came back with:
- Lesco Fertilzier 18-6-16 (I forget the exact blend but it was the closest I could find to what you guys specified--it's generically labeled as a summer/winter fertilizer).

- Scotts Kentucky Blue Grass
- Ortho Weed-B-Gone + Hose Sprayer

Now I plan to do the following:

This week spray the yard with Weed-B-Gone.

In 2-3 weeks, rent core aerator, then seed, then fertilize. Now TKV suggested I do this now, but I plan on waiting the 2-3 weeks so the weed-b-gone can do its thing. Do I need to wait?

Also, how short should I mow the lawn before seeding? Like an inch above scalping?

Thanks guys!

[GripB]

TKV,
Check your private message when you get a chance.

[Lawn Sharks]

MC,
Sounds like a great plan to me. Get ready for a beautiful lawn. Don't be shocked at how ugly it is after you aerate. To break up the plugs from the aeration, after putting the seed down, you can drag a section of chain link fence over it.

After the Weed B Gone has taken effect (longer than you would think) mowing as low as your mower will allow before aeration and seeding is fine.

Let us know how it looks after the bluegrass starts to come in.
You may want to mix in a little fescue for those shady areas.


Cheers!

[TKV]

Matt,

Might have me confused with TSM, I think he wanted you to
aerate / seed right now.

IMO, I think you should fertilize / spray the weeds now, aerate
in 2-3 weeks and seed then fertilize again in Mid / late September
once the lawn begans to thicken.

My reasoning behind this is three-fold.
One, fertilizing will cause immediate growth in the grass plant which will strengthen it prior to Core Aeration damage.
Second, it will also cause the weeds to grow and improve the
uptake of the weed killer and it definitely will improve it's
effectiveness.
I also prefer not to spray weed control on fresh grass seedlings
when I can avoid it, you have the option to also not do this
by scheduling your tasks appropriately.

Third, I think it's still a bit hot to aerate and expose roots
to drying conditions right now,
in addition, even though warm soil temps
DO speed germination rates, cool season grass like KB actually
will grow much faster in fall-type weather (ie: early september -
thru late october).
Lastly your care aeration holes will still be open for several weeks
after you aerate the lawn and the second fertilizing will get
into that sufficently to enhance late fall root growth(oct - nov).

Your collection of ingrediants that you now possess look good,
props to you for being persistant and getting the right tools
for the job.

Tom

[TSM]

LOL, as one question and get a ton of differet answers.

comparing your first pictures (before TG-CL) to the second set of pictures (after TC-CL) one can see a very noticabe improvement in weed control.---I'd save the 'weed-b-gone' for next season.

I stick to my response of aerating/seeding now. K. Bluegrass is a slow germinator. Core aeration is a very friendly mechanical service to perform on your lawn...damage, if done correctly, is minimal at best. Aeration will also,more than likely, bring up some weed seed to the surface...deal with it next season. You definatley do not want to apply a weed control product on new seedlings (we all seem to agree on this) you will want to wait til the new seed has been mowed at least two times before appling any weed control product. Soo, if weeds are a problem, and you seed now, that second mowing will most likey be sometime around early october...still allowing you time to spray (personally, Id wait till next season)
Roots being exposed to heat if aeration is done now....very slim to none chance. You have a half way decent stand of turf now..in my opinion its a none issue. And i agree that the bluegrass will grow faster in cooler temps...but before it starts growing it needs to germinate. Seed now and expect to see some germination in about 21 days...bout that time the air temps will be cooling.
And the aeration hole will still be opened if you aerate now. But even if they are not, when you fertilize in the fall simply water it in.

anyway, good luck however you choose to go about things.

[TKV]

http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/hgic1200.htm

[TKV]

http://turfgrassmanagement.psu.edu/Aeration.html

[TSM]

man, there is a reason why i dont participate often here.

ok TKV, guess we're gonna butt heads on this, the links you posted are quite generic

from your link-
Spring and early fall are the best times to aerate. Summer aeration of cool-season grasses, such as bluegrass, bentgrass, and fescue, is not generally recommended because these grasses are in a semi-dormant condition, whereas crabgrass is quite active. A safe general rule for time of aeration is to aerate only when the desirable grasses are growing vigorously


Mid august, cooler than normal air temps, sufficient rainfalls. My guess is that that lawn in PA is being mowed regularly. Does this discribe a vigorous growth?
Also the tail end of crabgrass season.

I dont see your point in posting those links (of course I could be way off base here, but i presume you posted those for my benefit?)

Anyway, good luck to Matt on his reno

BTW, I core aerate my lawn 3 times per year...spring, summer, fall
Oh, and 20 somewhat years ago as a student at URI we maintained test plots (meaningless in my opinion, atest plot is a test plot, not real life) anyway plots mowed with a blunt blade had a much higher instance of red thread disease.
Just had to toss that in

Peace

[TKV]

I simply posted the links pertaining to aeration as something
Matt could read and make his own choice on how he wanted to
proceed given the multiple opinions made available to him.
No disrespect intended.

I chose Penn State and Clemson because those are
2 of the 3 school's I have worked the most with over the
years (the third being MSU).

I don't doubt your conclusions about red thread being more
prevelent in grass cut with a dull blade, I expect you would
also find much higher rates of Helminthsporium too.
Given the low to mid 80's in his area right now with low rainfall
and long daylight I really don't expect any of that to be a possibility though.

I understand your thoughts on test plots as not being real life,
However I can confess to have learned my things in test plots outside that were immensly different in results than
things grown untouched in a lab greenhouse.

By the way URI is an outstanding turf school.....

Tom

[mc1169]

The problem as I see it is that you two simply know too much abouts lawns ;-)

My final decision will probably be driven more by finances then by science. I really don't have the $$$ right now to rent a core aerator. But in 2-3 weeks, I will.

Last question: After I aerate, should I apply the seed with a drop spreader, rotary spreader or with the hand operated type of sower? Or again is it a matter of preference???

I really appreciate all the help!

Matt

[TSM]

Tom, I appologize for jumping on you.

Matt, I appologize for taking your thread personally. I do have a passion for lawn care.

Red Thread, here in New England, is a season long problem. We service over 1200 residential lawns many with active Red Thread even now.
And leaf spot was indeed a higher percentage on plots mowed with a blunt blade.

And though I am in New England, MA, it is my understanding that the east coast as a whole has had a cooler than normal summer and many areas have had plenty of rain (we havent, but some folks have) and with tropical storms active in the south headed up the coast looks like all the east coast will be experiencing some drenching rains.

Matt, I'd go rotary, but thats just my preferance

my time on this thread has come to an end. Peace to all and good luck to Matt

[TKV]

Matt,

Use the rotary for sure.

Good luck.

Tom

[mc1169]

One other item I think you guys will get a kick out of:

I called TG/CL yesterday to cancel the service and of course they offered to come out and spray again, etc, etc. When I asked for a refund of the last treatment, they escalated me to their "manager".

He kept me on the phone for about five minutes, etc and then said I can't authorize a refund of your last treatment because you didn't go through our full program. I told him that the website clearly states, "If you are not totally satisfied with results from your service, we will work with you until you are satisfied or refund the amount of your last application."

Needless to say he wouldn't budge. I informed him that I would be writing letters to the BBB, upper-management and my local news stations. I then said, have a nice day and hung up.

We'll see what happens, but this just goes to show what they are really like.

Matt

[TSM]

see, i said i was done, but here i am again. i truely do have a passion for lawn care. and as an owner of a lawncare business i cant say i disagree with TG, at least not on this issue.

Matt, are you truely dissatisfied? your pictues show results. They offered to retreat, isnt that fair?

We, lke TG-CL offer a "customer satisfaction guarantee"
If a customer is not satisfied we offer a free retreat.

Believe it or not, there are folks out there who get a kick out of taking advantage of this 'guarantee'. You know, they wont pay and when we call for payment they say they were not satisfied, so they get a free retreat. Some folks play this system with two or three companies per season and never pay for any lawncare.
So I understand TG's unwillingness to refund.

Now I dont want to step on toes (again) but didnt i read Matt that you said earlier that you would try TG and then ask them for a refund??? Thats not playing fair Matt.

BTW, once upon a time the BBB carried some weight, no more.

I must say if you were dealing with my company Matt, you would not get a refund...we would offer to retreat.

Ok, we talked agronomics, now a little on the business end.

really think i've talked my self out on this one

see ya all

[TSM]

The good news is that TGCL said they would not charge me as I did not authorize. I'm going to see if I can get another application out of them for free, plus I'm going to try and negotiate the $49 per application down to around $40 (about 14,000sq.ft.).

Well guys thanks so much for all your help. My lawn is looking much better. I have to say that TG/CL did a fairly good job controlling the weeds, etc.

....Chemlawn has been coming for almost 3 months now and the lawn does look better,

We'll see what happens, but this just goes to show what they are really like.





Matt, Matt, Matt, you are not playing fair

[dvmcmrhp52]

mc1169,

As I said earlier,chemlawn will be effective I just don't like the way they do business.

To the questions..................

Don't let chemlawn do the pesticide application,you don't need it unless you have a noticeable bug problem,and as well it will keep you from overseeding...............
Here's my plan.................
I personally wouldn't do the weed b gone now.......the temperatures are still a bit too warm and you will do some damage to your lawn in the process. You can apply it and get results but I prefer a bit cooler weather.
If you do apply it be sure to wait at least 3 weeks before seeding.

The plan.............
Last week of august- first week of september, triple core aerate,
(3 passes over your entire lawn to get GOOD coverage)
overseed with a rotary or drop spreader and get GOOD coverage.
I would not recomend a hand spreader do to insufficient coverage and a lengthy process.
Fertilize the same day or within a 2-3 day period after seeding
and water,water,water.(dependant upon weather of course,we've had a good bit of rain)
Sit back and watch it grow................
The supplies you've bought will work,just be sure to apply plenty of seed and fertilize at the recommended rate.....over fertilization at this point will not help,but could burn the new seedlings.
Refertilize again with a starter fert or winterizer type fert (higher P and K)in early october.

We do many new lawns in new developements and this is our plan,It works for us.

Hope this is what you were looking for.
The others have given good thoughts as well........

[mc1169]

I am actually a very fair person when it comes to business. I've taken your comments into consideration and based upon them have decided not to pursue TG/CL for the last application.

Thanks again for everyones suggestions and help. You all saved me big $$$.

I swear this is the last question and then I'll end this thread:

- After I core aerate, spread the seed, etc. Do I need to rake the seeds in or is this unnecessary? I thought about buying a section of chain fence but don't want to spend the $$$ if it's not necessary.

Thanks again and I'll post pictures in the fall!

Matt

[TSM]

Originally posted by mc1169
I am actually a very fair person when it comes to business. I've taken your comments into consideration and based upon them have decided not to pursue TG/CL for the last application.


I think you are doing the fair and honorable thing Matt.


And yes, I would rake following the seeding. You dont necessarily need to go out and purchase a section of chain link fence...you could just simply use a good lawn rake and do it by hand. Raking will ensure seed contact with the soil.

Then be faithful with your watering

[mc1169]

Gentlemen,

About two weeks ago I went ahead with some of your suggestions and I have to say that my lawn is looking good. Again, it's been only 2 weeks and the Kentucky Bluegrass I seeded is already starting to germinate (mostly in slightly shaded areas). I applied 18-2-18 Lesco fert immediately after seeding and I have been watering daily.

I will post pics hopefully later today or tomorrow. Thanks again to all!

And of course I'll close with a question: should I again apply 18-2-18 Lesco in October or should I use a different N-P-K fert?

Thanks,

Matt

[mc1169]

You can see my neighbors weed infested lawn to the right...in the first pic and then the second is a close up of the plugs. Nothing I'm sure you guys haven't seen before but I figured I would post for other homeowners...

I will follow up with what it looks like two weeks later in a few days.

Thanks again!

[I-Hawk]

This thread has been great. I am ready to do the exact same process, and all of my questions have been answered. Thanks guys.