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BareFootLawn
06-16-2004, 12:57 AM
Spent 1.5 hrs today in my "organic" front yard dealing with black medic. The ground is moist from all the rain, so I was able to get the entire root on about 60% of them.
In all I pulled a 2 1/2 gallon bucket full (out of about 2,500 sq/ft).
Other than 1 broadleaf Plantain and about a dozen small Oxalis shoots, this is the only weed that is in my yard.

I aerate.
Overseeded with 15lbs of 60% Perrenial Rye, 40% bluegrass.
Sunshine, water.
Organic Fertilizer (early April & June) 50lbs.

Any ideas on why I'm getting so much of this weed?

Tip for those pulling like I am.
Rake it up first from all directions with a garden rake. Once you have all of the arms of it up and out of your turf grass, it's pretty easy to pull.

trying 2b organic
06-16-2004, 01:54 AM
Your reminded me of the weed I most wanted to forget today. The black medic is out of this world here this yr. It has overtaken customers lawns. I also have done all of the best management practices that you have but it is unstoppable. I assume that it will run its course and be gone soon. I would like to know from the traditional lawn guys if there is a pesticide that would take care of it for those customers who are most metiulous. I assume Par 111 or three-way.

woodycrest
06-16-2004, 09:07 AM
Par3 works...

my traditonal european golf greens..(hi ric :)... ) were covered in black medic(also white clover) the last 2 years...i hand pulled buckets of the stuff last year, with one major problem...it went to seed before i got all of it... i got it kinda under control by last fall. But this spring it was back!! nasty stuff.

anyway...one application of PAR3 took care of the black medic and the clover and every other weed.
THe bent grass took a week or two to recover , but it is doing well now.

trying 2b organic
06-16-2004, 01:14 PM
What did it do to the bent grass? I guess Par 3 is sold for cool season grasses. I know it was stressed but how did that manifest itself?

Ric
06-21-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by woodycrest
my traditonal european golf greens..(hi ric :)... )

Hi Woodycrest

Now I can tell you all why you are having problems with Black Medic and White Clover. However as Tree Huggers you won't like me. Now I will also say that Black Medic and White Clover are a problem here in warm season because all the good herbicide have been taken off the market and Black Medic and White Clover are hard to kill.

Prevention is key to controlling Black Medic and White Clover. Low Nitrogen is the reason Black Medic and Clover can get started and keep going. High Nitrogen lawns do not have a problem with Black Medic or Clover. Cracked Corn just doesn't get it when it comes to these weeds.

trying 2b organic
06-21-2004, 11:14 PM
I hate to say it but so far even heavy applications of organic fertlizer havnt made a real dent in the amount of clover. to the point i am tempted to test your point. However, back to an old discussion, if I apply 10 lbs per k of my 8-3-3 isnt the lawn getting the same N as your are using 4 lbs per k of 24- . Roughly? Do you really think even at the heavy rates I am applying organic N at that its an N issue. I am putting down about 4 lbs per K per annum. And leaving clippings in most cases.

woodycrest
06-21-2004, 11:23 PM
funny you should say that Ric, i just figured that out....im a bit stubborn, i have this habit of not believing it until i see it...well, i saw it and it worked!!
hey ric, im not sure that i would be classified as a tree hugger, but i never said i didnt like you...:)

the greens were fertilized with a granular 'organic based' product (29-3-4 i think it was ) and used granular weed and feed on the fairways. WOW!! what great results!!!! it was applied at about 75% of the suggested rate, the clover took a hit from the par 3, but after applying the fertilizer, the bent has started 'creeping' like its supposed to and the clover is fading away. the black medic is history. The greens actually warrant the use of a putter, and im sorry to say that they have most certainly lost thier tradtional european status.

Without question tHe cracked corn was very beneficial to the greens, but did not provide the much needed nitrogen.

Trying 2 b,

THe par 3 turned the bent a little brown for a week or so, but recovered after a few days, but i think the par 3 was a bit more diluted than the reccomended rate.

Ric
06-22-2004, 09:10 AM
Woodycrest

You're a good guy. I have had fun slipping the needle to you on occasion and you take it rather well. Sound like your Traditional European Golf Greens are not virgin anymore.:D I would not of replied to this thread had you not needled me. I try not to cause too much trouble here in the Orgasmic Forum.

Now once again I will state my feeling on the value of organic fertilizer. It has value in 21th century horticulture. In my case of Calcareous Sandy Soil it helps increase CEC, Microbes and Hydro Conductivity. This allows Synthetic fertilizer to be more available to the plant.

woodycrest
06-22-2004, 04:20 PM
Ric,

nuthin wrong with a little friendly needling, sometimes it can help the learning process, that why i spend so much time reading on here....to learn.

just to illustrate how effective my 'revised' approach is, i thought i should post a pic....

this green WAS the worst black medic/clover infested one on the golf course...

woodycrest
06-22-2004, 04:25 PM
since i had mentioned the great results on the fairways from the weed and feed i decided to post a pic of one of them too...

this fairway WAS loaded with clover ...

dan deutekom
06-22-2004, 08:17 PM
Par lll? Weed and feed? On a organic forum?

I guess I will still have to keep my pesticide license? Sometimes nature needs a little help. Isn't that kind of saying that sometimes you can't be completely organic and using chemicals is justified? I think this is called IPM.

Not trying to b^%ch just calling a spade a spade.:confused:

Ric
06-22-2004, 09:26 PM
Darn WoodyCrest

I just might get you to the pesticide forum after all.

woodycrest
06-22-2004, 10:15 PM
LOL....you crack me up Ric...

i actually have spent alot of time reading on the pesticide forum..just havent posted anything.


Dan,

Yes, you are correct, sometimes nature does need a little help to satisfy the humans who require a 'perfect' lawn, or in this case a golf course.
you weren't gonna burn your pesticide licence were you? :)

THe point of this thread is how to get rid of black medic...i think Ric's point about clover and black medic infestation being the result of low nitrogen takes the cake here. So then it follows that simply increasing the level of nitrogen over time would solve the black medic problem...that would take big pile of corn!!

but theres that precious time thing again...the customer wants the lawn perfect yesterday. AS i have stated numerous times before TIME is the most important factor in an organic program.

yes Dan , the use of chemicals is justified, but minimizing their use is most important...i guess thats what IPM is for , eh? :)

Ric
06-22-2004, 11:05 PM
Woodycreast

You will be posting Question in the Pesticide forum before you know.

Yes Nature does need help and IPM (I Pay Material) is good if it is a BMP (Best Management Practice).

BareFootLawn
06-23-2004, 12:31 AM
Glad I started this thread!
I will increase nitrogen, which will probably be a synthetic so I can "load" up with it.
I agree with the IPM type approach. While I encourage organic when possible and practical, I have also seen situations where it would take the better part of 4 - 6 growing seasons to correct a problem (or cost too much $$$). So RESPONSIBLE use of herbacides, synthetics, etc. is acceptable (in my book).

Ric
06-23-2004, 12:47 AM
Barefoot

when this forum start up I was all ears. However die in the wool Tree Hugger send me packing.

Now Organic fertilizer can be very good. I personnel believe in it as one of the many tricks a pro uses to product a response that is desirable. I will spend more time here if I know the Rachael Carson's of the world are willing to open there eyes. This is the 21th century.

trying 2b organic
06-23-2004, 02:36 AM
One more black medic question, a customer went to the nursery and got a 2-4d product for dandilions (makes sence) and they gave him a Laters chickweed killer with... i think it was M.C.P.A.. What is M.C.P.A. and is it better than 2-4d for these creeping types like black medic and buttercup and chickweed? We seemed to think from studying the labels that the M.C.P.A. was the more toxic of the two. Is that true and do you need the "big guns" to go after these creeping type of weeds.?

Ric
06-23-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by trying 2b organic
One more black medic question, a customer went to the nursery and got a 2-4d product for dandilions (makes sence) and they gave him a Laters chickweed killer with... i think it was M.C.P.A.. What is M.C.P.A. and is it better than 2-4d for these creeping types like black medic and buttercup and chickweed? We seemed to think from studying the labels that the M.C.P.A. was the more toxic of the two. Is that true and do you need the "big guns" to go after these creeping type of weeds.?

Try

I am not up on M.C.P.A. and can't find it on the label website. 2-4-D amine formula is what we use in warm season turf. Asulox was taken off the residential market but was the greatest on Black Medic and Crab Grass. Yes you need big guns on creeping weeds. however just a very little touch of it.

Ric
06-24-2004, 01:48 PM
Woodycrest

Since you were kind enough to show your beautiful organic turf, I think it is only fair that I post a Picture of turf grown with out the benefit of synthetic fertilizer.

Please note this turf also has the benefit of no chemical pest control. Pictured here is me practicing true IPM pest management by culture practices.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Ricyard/Gator.bmp

woodycrest
06-24-2004, 04:41 PM
Ride em cowboy!!!! :)

Geez , glad we dont have any of those guys around here, they would be leaping out of the ponds at the golf course , grabbing me by the legs and taking me away...weed whacker and all...
sometimes my weedwhacker distintegrates a few frogs...i dont want their big brother the alligator to get revenge.

seems to a few bare spot on the turf there, Ric, you should throw some corn on it.....

nice picture!!
you ever been whipped by one of those tails?

Ric
06-24-2004, 09:10 PM
Woodycrest

As much as I hate to admit it that is my very first customers yard. They are also personnel friends. Now I don't think fertilizer has ever been applied to that land. It is about 5 acres and only the area around the house is maintained to any level. We Bush Hog it about 18 times a year.

This guy is perfect eating size. However the permit was for relocation so he was sold to a Gator Farm. At this size they can still be very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. But with the right technique they can be no problem. Please note the long ring pole holding him off while I am getting ready to tape his mouth. The tail is also very dangerous until you tie their legs. even then they can slam you very hard.

cenlo
06-24-2004, 09:23 PM
Very cool!:cool: