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View Full Version : Lawn "wipe out"


cenlo
07-27-2004, 01:32 PM
I have 3 customers with small properties with 80% weeds.(These people are not going to use chemicals) I have tried vinegar, but they "all" come back. I have tried the salt stick and the infra-weeder with no success. If I tarp the property with a black tarp for two weeks will it kill the entire root system? Has anyone done this? Or is their any other alternatives? And again I have talked to these people about using an application of a "tri-kill" but it is out of the question for these individuals.


Thanks in advance, Cenlo

dan deutekom
07-27-2004, 06:00 PM
I don't know if 2 weeks would be long enough. You would have to exclude light for a long enough period so that the weeds roots will starve out due to the lack of photosyntheses. Some may be gone in that time but some large deep rooted weeds probably need more time.

trying 2b organic
07-27-2004, 08:22 PM
I am suprised and disappointed to hear that the weeds came back after the vinegear. Mind you the chem guys use Roundup twice for a kill and till. maybe its the same thing, maybe it needs to be hit a second time after the first kill, Input from others plz.

dan deutekom
07-27-2004, 09:17 PM
I havn't tried using the vinegar twice in this type of case because of the expense but I suspect that it would take 3 or 4 applications of vinegar. Maybe if you apply vinegar and then till after it burns off, wait for it to resprout and apply vinegar and re till again?

trying 2b organic
07-27-2004, 10:23 PM
I would never actually till a lawn as part of a reno. A reno im finding is the toughest part of being organic. People used to tell me you need herbicides to help get the lawn in order before you can go fully organic and I didnt buy it, now im not so sure.
The only organic option I would use would be hand weeding then topdressing and overseeding. I expect you will have more weeds in the new lawn however, with this method. But to till up turf seems crazy amount of work, the vinegear apparently doesnt work.
Ok, im thinking as I type but if you have a customer that is adamant to reno a lawn without herbicides I would, hand pull broadleafs, scalp with mower, aerate heavilty, and topdress/overseed. With the disclaimer that it will be much improved but not weed free. The new lawn will have less weeds and can be kept at a reasonable tolerance threshold with yearly over-seeding and a bit of hand weeding.
btw I get much faster and better germination when i sprinkle peat moss on the seed, anyone else do that?

cenlo
07-27-2004, 10:27 PM
maybe it needs to be hit a second time after the first kill, Input from others plz.

I have one lawn that I sprayed three times approx. 3-5 days between sprays. Then about a week later I went back and aerated, vertisliced with new seed, and fertilized. When I did this there was nothing but dirt and some dried up weeds. I went back about 10-14 days later to view progress and there were about 90% weeds!:confused: The root system must be deep and strong! I just don't want to go back and cover her lawn with a tarp for three weeks and end up with the same problem.(I already feel like an idiot!

cenlo
07-27-2004, 11:52 PM
Ok, im thinking as I type but if you have a customer that is adamant to reno a lawn without herbicides I would, hand pull broadleafs, scalp with mower, aerate heavilty, and topdress/overseed. With the disclaimer that it will be much improved but not weed free. The new lawn will have less weeds and can be kept at a reasonable tolerance threshold with yearly over-seeding and a bit of hand weeding.

The problem is that we can't kill the roots! When you hand pull you just can't get the entire root system. (And believe me I have pulled alot of weeds this year) It all looks good for a week or two, and then back to square one. Out of about 50 lawns which we spent an average of about 8-10 man hours pulling weeds only one made a huge difference. The soil was very wet and the root system was pulled out (approx. 18"-24" long) this property was 80% weeds and after I session of hand pulling it is now about 5%! (But the other 49 looked like crap!:confused: )
So...........I decided to use 1 controlled spray of Trilliun to get the weeds under control to give the organics and CGM a fighting chance. (And to avoid bankruptcy:))

ProMo
07-28-2004, 09:07 AM
the plastic will work if it gets hot enough to sterilize the soil, then you will need organic material to replace the bacteria.

Lawn Sharks
07-28-2004, 11:33 AM
The plastic will do the trick as others have said but I find it takes about 5-6 weeks. I have a friend that installs those plastic putting greens that you put sand on and he gives me odd pieces that work great for killing large areas, It is heavy, doesn't get blown around by the wind, allows water through and looks kinda like grass. I use it for problem areas and not whole lawns as I don't have enough of it.

cenlo
07-28-2004, 06:40 PM
Keth, would you know the name of this product or a source I could look up on the internet? Thanks, Cenlo

Lawn Sharks
08-01-2004, 11:12 PM
Cenlo,
Sorry, don't know where he gets it but will ask him. It is the heavy duty stuff used to make backyard putting greens and chipping areas. You put sand on top. I do remember him saying it was the same brand that John Daly had in his yard so that may help. For killing large areas off I wouldn't suggest it as it is expensive and heavy. I have scraps from this guy and a few are quite large so when I have an area that I feel is beyond organics I just throw this stuff down if the owner agrees and let it kill everything. Works best in springtime when all the weed seeds from the previous season are trying to get started.

trying 2b organic
08-02-2004, 09:35 PM
cenlo, how did the Trillion work for you? I think you explanation as to why hand weeding then overseeding vrs. 3 way then overseeding is the real reason results have been poor at times for me too.
I just talked to one of my customers about this and am studying for my licence now. btw, will you ever use a Pre-em? Will there be a place in your prgms for one or do u feel Pre-m doesnt fit within your definition of ipm?
The reason I want your impression of the results of the Trillion is that you are in Canada like me and unlike the traditional guys you are comming to it from the same mindset. (of trying to minimize or eliminate pesticide use)

cenlo
08-03-2004, 11:47 PM
cenlo, how did the Trillion work for you? I think you explanation as to why hand weeding then overseeding vrs. 3 way then overseeding is the real reason results have been poor at times for me too.

The Trillion works great! I,m not thrilled about using the chemical and don't believe a word from the retailer about how "safe" it is, but I do believe it may have a place. I do have alot to say on the subject but have little time right now. I will post a more in-depth response in the near future.

"We are living in a world where values seem to have no place!"

trying 2b organic
08-04-2004, 02:19 AM
ty plz do, I look forward to it since I will be going from total organic to IPM as you have. Also, it seems we have much fewer products available, (just got catalouge and price list) than the U.S. so am interested to know what other products you may be looking at if any. (pre-m, insects, fungus etc)

Catmann
08-05-2004, 05:46 PM
If you cannot use anything then the best bet is to scalp the lawn as low as possible and then criss-cross slice-seed. The scapling will slow the weeds temporarily and the slice-seeding will dice the weeds and slow them further temporarily. Use plenty of seed and incorporate some ryegrass to make sure some comes up quickly. If you time it right you can get a decent stand of turf going amongst the weeds. Tall Fescue will resist the most weed pressue if you cut the lawn high. Find a blend with say 80% tall fescue, 10% rye, and 10% blue to cover all bases and that is as good as you are going to get without killing anything first.

Besides vinegar will slow or ****** the seed germination and weeds will come back before the grass anyway!

kthhayes
08-28-2004, 01:22 AM
First thing first, is there enough light on the lawn, or do you have too many trees? Second what is the soil PH? Third, is the soil too organic, sandy, or is it all clay? Once these are done, and the correct ballance is reached, you then need to ...

1Gal DISTILED Viniger
1 Cup salt
mix till throughly disolved
then add 8 TBS liquid dish soap, or glyseryne

Spray the whole lawn, and keep coming back twice a week till there is no more green left. The top will burn out fast with this recipy, and the rest is time and materials!!! Each time you kill the top, energy is expended to start new leaves, keep spraying and it will kill all. We did poisoin ivy with this stuff, it took 6 treatments, but the stalk was over the top of some shuubs!!!, we killed it all! and got paid to put in new shrubs, because we told them so...

HazyDavy
09-20-2004, 04:27 PM
I'm kind of a rookie to lawn care, but couldn't you smother the lawn with a few inches of topsoil(mixed with compost) and re-seed?

cenlo
09-20-2004, 07:38 PM
I just tarped the above lawn for 6 full weeks. I removed the tarp last week and there were weeds still growing!........wow!!!! Anyway I hit them with some vinegar, so I will have to wait and see! The weeds are driving me :realmad: crazy, and are winning the battle!

Hope everyone had a great summer! :)

Mickhippy
09-20-2004, 08:48 PM
I havent read all the post here so bare with me.
I understand there's like 80% weeds so this might not be any use but try some boiling water.
Council here had a truck theyd drive around and spray boiling water on weeds ands grass that shouldnt be where it was. Kills them real qiuck and no chem's!
It would leave patches though.

trying 2b organic
09-29-2004, 12:32 AM
Im starting to try another way to reno a bad lawn without Roundup and without the black tarps. Its not perfect but its about timing the reno to when the grass will grow but weeds are competing less. Like right now for instance. As we get into fall its still warm enough for grass to germinate (esp Perennial Rye) but the weeds seem much less active than they do in the spring.
So, howbout take that weedy pile of crap and -- Power rake double pass, rake up what that leaves, topdress fertilize and seed. Same deal but with the combo of power rake, scalp with mower maybe and then covering them with soil AND the fact that its fall and less weeds are doing thier wild thing, can we get a decent reno without either of the above mentioned methods. (glyphosate/tarps)

trying 2b organic
09-29-2004, 12:36 AM
Besides vinegar will slow or ****** the seed germination and weeds will come back before the grass anyway![/QUOTE]


Good post, didnt read before i posted. But one question, is this true, I need to know if this is for real, very helpful for me to know.

muddstopper
09-29-2004, 07:47 PM
Try clear plastic instead of the black. Seems to work faster and you dont have to remove it to see if it is working.