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View Full Version : Working solo - Your time doesn't matter???


1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 07:10 PM
I got into a discussion with someone. It was about detours.
We've been experiencing a detour one day a week, for 4 weeks, which is adding roughly an extra 36 to 40 minutes round trip for us on Thursday. I asked the person what they thought about it, and they said it only matters if you have employees....
And I quote:
My employees are being paid by the hour, or minute actually. When my men are being paid for my time, then time is money. In your case, you lose nothing by spending the extra few min each day.

I say that is wrong, I say time is time, and it is still costing us.

Opinions?????

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 07:17 PM
it's not COSTING YOU ANYTHING! if this frame of mind were correct, then taking a lunch break would be COSTING you money. taking a day off would be COSTING you money. quitting at 5 instead of 6 would be COSTING you money. now if they vote in my favor, remember what you promised me....

1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 07:20 PM
WRONG, it is costing us. Cause we could be at the next job making money, however we are stuck on the road!!!! think, before you type.

Ray & Karen
08-13-2004, 07:21 PM
The only way that it would be costing you anthing is because of the potential work you may be missing out on if you were to use that time to gain extra work....otherwise you just get done later.

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 07:36 PM
i know ray, she's really going out on a limb here. if her mentality were correct, then she'd be LOSING MONEY by taking sunday off, and LOSING MONEY by not working till midnight. this falls along the same logic that the print company i used to work for used: in year 2000, they ESTIMATED sales for 2001 to be 5 million. when year 2001 was over, the actual sales came back at 4.5 million. so, they claimed they LOST a half a million dollars.

Fvstringpicker
08-13-2004, 07:47 PM
From my view as a CPA, and former cost accountant, only in "soft" dollars or opportunity cost.
In other words a job that pays a fixed $100, pays $100 regardless of the intermittent variations in time. There are no hard dollar loss of revenue or increase in costs when the dollars amounts are fixed and time varies within a relevant range. From my view as a engineer, all time used is considered an integral factor because it, time, is finite, (you only have so much) can be assigned a value, like any other tangible products and, like many other tangible products, its value is allocated based on the amount used. I hope ya'll appreciate my solid stance and the clarity of my explanation.

HOOLIE
08-13-2004, 07:50 PM
If you're solo, the detour would only cost you money if your schedule was so full that the 40 minutes prevented you from doing an additional job that week. At least, that's how I view it.

wrestlingcoach
08-13-2004, 07:52 PM
gas cost money

Turf Medic
08-13-2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by 1MajorTom
I got into a discussion with someone. It was about detours.
We've been experiencing a detour one day a week, for 4 weeks, which is adding roughly an extra 36 to 40 minutes round trip for us on Thursday. I asked the person what they thought about it, and they said it only matters if you have employees....
And I quote:
My employees are being paid by the hour, or minute actually. When my men are being paid for my time, then time is money. In your case, you lose nothing by spending the extra few min each day.

I say that is wrong, I say time is time, and it is still costing us.

Opinions?????

It is concepts like this that seperate the business person that happens to maintain lawns or landscapes. And the lawn jockey that attempts to "run" a business.

Of course it is costing you money, possibly more that if you had employees. If you are more efficient than a paid employee that means you can generate more dollars per hour, therefore any hours you are not working costs more than an employee that is not working. Far better that the paid less efficient employee be trapped in traffic than yourself. People can get caught up in this all the time, they figure if they are not paying out it is not costing them money, WRONG WRONG WRONG.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 08:03 PM
Tell us again Jodi, Why are you doing this?
It only matters if you have employees?
Not quite.
Time is money,it matters not who's time it is.
My time is worth cash just the same,ask him if HE works for free.

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 08:03 PM
You lose more money with employees, but you still lose money even if by yourself

Aleman
08-13-2004, 08:07 PM
OK, you guys have got me confused now....specifically, where is the "money lost" sitting in traffic comming from?

Example: I usually complete my Friday schedule as a solo by 5 pm. Today, I finished 30 minutes late due traffic, did I lose 30 min pay off of my monthly gross?

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 08:08 PM
You could have had 30 more mins of work that you could have scheduled for that day

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by tiedeman
You could have had 30 more mins of work that you could have scheduled for that day




There you have it.
My time is supposed to be spent creating income,not pleasuring some buffoons whims.
Let's see, thirty minutes driving time versus thirty minutes of income production......................

If that thirty minutes was meant for income production but instead is spent with the buffoon I just lost cash.

Funny thing is that's what most people think.........It's just you so you're not paying anyone for the extra time.........THAT is CORRECT
I'm not even paying MYSELF.

HOOLIE
08-13-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by tiedeman
You could have had 30 more mins of work that you could have scheduled for that day

I believe we're talking about solo operators, most of whom have a certain amount of regular mowing customers each week. So if you are always able to get your route done each week, the wasted drive time only cost you in gas money. If you can't fill the wasted time with paying work then it really makes no difference.

TurfMedic was talking about efficiency and dollars per hour. Doesn't matter IF YOU GET ALL YOUR WORK DONE. You are not paying yourself by the hour, nor do you get a bonus if you hit a certain dollar per hour mark.

BTW, are there so few roads there that there's no other way to get around?

Aleman
08-13-2004, 08:18 PM
Thats the point, I still could have scheduled 30 minutes work. I could have scheduled another 3 hours work but I didnt bacause the days goals were met. At some point we have to reach the end of the day that was scheduled in advance. If we reach that goal, then nothing is lost....except time...Of course this is working solo.

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 08:28 PM
dv, are you losing money right now? you aren't mowing, so i guess you are losing money? so then i guess if you are out mowing, but mowing in 3rd instead of fourth, you are losing money, is this correct? i think you are wrong. if your route consists of 90 clients per week, and you get these 90 clients done in 45 hrs of work, you make xxx dollars. now if maybe you are not feeling well a couple days, you work a bit slower, and your route takes you 50 hrs, have you lost money due to the extra 5 hrs it took you? no, absolutely not. jodi you lost and extra 25 cents worth of fuel by taking the long way, nothing more.

1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 08:37 PM
So Bobby, let me ask you this.
You drive to a lawn with your "crew". When you get there, building material/roofing material is all over the yard. You leave because you can't mow the lawn. Because you have employees, this is costing you extra money. However, the next week you go there, this time by yourself because your "crew" is hungover from the night before.. The yard is still in a shambles, you can't cut, and the customer didn't call you. I guess it wouldn't really matter to you huh, and I bet you wouldn't FREAK on them this time because you were solo, and hey that wasted trip didn' t cost you anything???????
Our time is impotant to us, and we are booked solid, if we lose 40 minutes that we had originally planned to have, then yes that is going to cost us somehow.
That's the problem, I've said it before. People don't understand time. People look and say, "oh I'm making so much an hour." Yeah right, count in all the extra time you spend driving, fueling up, loading up equipment, taking detours, dumping grass, equipment maintenance... it all should be factored in.
Time is money, and being on the road not making money, is costing us when we could be at the next job.

gogetter
08-13-2004, 08:46 PM
Aleman's posts make more sense to me.

If you finish all your scheduled work on Friday at 5 o'clock. Then does that mean later that night at 7 o'clock when your sitting watching tv or eating dinner, it's costing you money because you could be out working?

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 08:47 PM
i would freak because my time is valuable to me not on a monetary level, but on a personal level. ok, dig this: your route cosists of 50 lawns, @ $30 each. you gross $1500 a week from your route. it takes you 40 hrs to complete the route. it costs you $300 a week to run your business. you can write yourself a paycheck for $1200 a week if you wish. because of the detours, it takes you 45 hrs this week to complete your route of 50 lawns @$30 each. it still cost you $300 to pay your expenses, you wrote yourself the same paycheck of $1200. what have you lost? you may have lost 5 hrs of your life, which means you took a personal loss, not a monetary one. answer the question: are you losing money right this minute because you arent mowing? did you lose money by not mowing at 6 pm while there was still daylight? will you be losing money tommorow if you start at 8 instead of 7?

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 08:50 PM
I agree, that if you are on a set sechdule then you don't lose moeny, but if you have work that you CAN schedule, like myself, then you are losing the opportunity to do that work, and thus not being able to schedule in more work to be completed

HOOLIE
08-13-2004, 08:51 PM
Oh sh**! I'm losing money RIGHT NOW by being on Lawnsite!

Gotta go...

Aleman
08-13-2004, 08:55 PM
Tom, I understand what you are getting at but it still doesn't balance. Bobby may freak when he shows up alone and cant mow but it doesn't cost him anything... as long as he can complete his schedule for the day...The loss is not monetary. His wife and kids may be mad but it doesnt affect his monthly gross income. He had planned to end the day of mowing at 5pm, instead, he finished at 5:30....His gross for the day was still the same.

1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by tiedeman
I agree, that if you are on a set sechdule then you don't lose moeny, but if you have work that you CAN schedule, like myself, then you are losing the opportunity to do that work, and thus not being able to schedule in more work to be completed

bingo....

So then, am I to understand driving around doesn't mean anything?
Why do we all want to have a tight knit route if it isn't costing us anything to drive around??? I mean, if we have 20 lawns, who cares if they are spread out every five miles, big deal, it doesn't cost anything to drive around, right? Whether they are all in a row or all spread out everywhere, doesn't matter because at the end of the week we will have been able to complete all the jobs, so the extra driving didn't cost anything.. I'll have to remember that next time someone calls 30 miles away asking for an estimate.
With us there is always work on the table, and losing 40 minutes is in someway costing us, either the equipment doesn't get maintained at the end of the night, the grass doesn't get dumped, a lawn doesn't get cut, somehow someway that extra 40 minutes cost us.

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 09:19 PM
jodi you havn't answered my question, i believe you are afraid to. you try to tighten routes #1 - to save on fuel . #2- to save on wear and tare on your vehicle. #3- because you are doing piece work, and the more pieces you complete in a day, the more you make.but, remember, we only have a certain amount of pieces we can complete. when they are done, the route is done. certainly nobody in thier right mind likes to work more than 8 hrs a day(6 a day serves me just fine), and with tighter routes you can do 15 in that 8 hrs compared to 8 if they are spread out. the detour cost you 25 cents worth of fuel, and i'm sure caused your husband some emotional damage by having to be in the truck with you those extra few minutes. if you insist you lost money by losing time, tell me then, in dollars and cents, how much did you lose?

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
dv, are you losing money right now? you aren't mowing, so i guess you are losing money? so then i guess if you are out mowing, but mowing in 3rd instead of fourth, you are losing money, is this correct? i think you are wrong. if your route consists of 90 clients per week, and you get these 90 clients done in 45 hrs of work, you make xxx dollars. now if maybe you are not feeling well a couple days, you work a bit slower, and your route takes you 50 hrs, have you lost money due to the extra 5 hrs it took you? no, absolutely not. jodi you lost and extra 25 cents worth of fuel by taking the long way, nothing more.



1) Right now I am making money.
2)Cutting in third gear rather than fourth is costing me money.............lost productivity.More productivity equals more cash in my pocket.
3) If 90 clients takes 45 hours and I schedule an additional ten hours per week of other work what happens when those 90 clients take 55 hours to do and I can no longer do the additional 10 hours of work?

Lawyers charge by the 1/4 hour, Why?
Plumbers do the same, Why?
My time IS worth money.
If I am working and not producing income I am wasting my time and it could be better spent MAKING money, So if my time is wasted I am losing money.

It is simple business acumen........time IS money,it matters not who's time it is,owner or employee.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
jodi you havn't answered my question, i believe you are afraid to. you try to tighten routes #1 - to save on fuel . #2- to save on wear and tare on your vehicle. #3- because you are doing piece work, and the more pieces you complete in a day, the more you make.but, remember, we only have a certain amount of pieces we can complete. when they are done, the route is done. certainly nobody in thier right mind likes to work more than 8 hrs a day(6 a day serves me just fine), and with tighter routes you can do 15 in that 8 hrs compared to 8 if they are spread out. the detour cost you 25 cents worth of fuel, and i'm sure caused your husband some emotional damage by having to be in the truck with you those extra few minutes. if you insist you lost money by losing time, tell me then, in dollars and cents, how much did you lose?





How much did she lose?
Simple,How much is her targeted hourly rate for the work she had planned to accomplish?

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 09:26 PM
This thread is a great thought provoking tool for those that want to learn the difference between running a business and just buying themselves a job.

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 09:28 PM
hey, I thought I was the only one that charged by 1/4's of the hour. 1 hour and 5 mins....nope gets bumped up to 1 hr and 15 mins

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 09:30 PM
what just happened?

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 09:32 PM
Eh?..................

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
what just happened?

I was making a comment about lawyers 1/4 hour charge

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 09:38 PM
look, she lost money in theory alone. but the fact remains, she only has 50 clients, once she is done with them, the work week is over. now your statement would be correct if she had an unlimited amount of clients at her fingertips on any given day, but that is not the case. now you may argue that if not for the lost time, she would use that time to try to get more clients, but again it is theory alone that she would actually gain the extra clients. you can't LOSE what you don't HAVE. example: you want to bet on a horse, mr. ed, in the 5th race at belmont. you get stuck in traffic, and miss the race. mr. ed wins, he pays 10-1. you were going to bet $10 on him. did the traffic jam cause you to LOSE $100?

lawnguyland
08-13-2004, 09:41 PM
maybe not costing actual money, but it is costing time and time is irreplaceable

Aleman
08-13-2004, 09:42 PM
How much did she lose?
Simple,How much is her targeted hourly rate for the work she had planned to accomplish?

That answers the question...." had planned to accomplish"...but the job was still completed so no money was lost

Heres another.

3) If 90 clients takes 45 hours and I schedule an additional ten hours per week of other work what happens when those 90 clients take 55 hours to do and I can no longer do the additional 10 hours of work?

Right, you were able to schedule the additional 10 hrs but weren't able to complete it...if you would have completed it, again, no money is lost...only "off time".....

heres another:
With us there is always work on the table, and losing 40 minutes is in someway costing us, either the equipment doesn't get maintained at the end of the night, the grass doesn't get dumped, a lawn doesn't get cut, somehow someway that extra 40 minutes cost us.

Again...some of the schedule is not met..thus losing money...but what if everything gets done, it just took 40 min longer...what income was lost?

I understand all the other post, but they get away from the original post about a solo operator...If your schedule is complete, then the loss is theoretical...if you don't have a schedule then your winging it anyway....

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 09:43 PM
correct. she lost time, she lost opportunity. but, on a monetary level, she lost nothing.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bobbygedd
[now you may argue that if not for the lost time, she would use that time to try to get more clients, but again it is theory alone that she would actually gain the extra clients.




You're catching on....................
Time wasted is opportunity squandered.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
correct. she lost time, she lost opportunity. but, on a monetary level, she lost nothing.



At the risk of sounding like a smartazz I will say that if this kind of attitude prevailed for Sam waldon or Bill Gates or Dave Thomas or...............

Lost opportunity is certainly lost income, you just can't deny it.

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 09:49 PM
she lost opportunity then, correct? she didn't lose actual dollars. she didn't leave the house with $200 in her pocket, and only come home with $100. correct? she lost the OPPORTUNITY to perhaps increase her client base, which we both know may, or may not have happened. correct? i knew you'd see it my way.

HOOLIE
08-13-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by lawnguyland
maybe not costing actual money, but it is costing time and time is irreplaceable

When I quit smoking, I'll gain a lot of years, and that'll make up for all these little lost bits of time. LOL

Aleman
08-13-2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52

You're catching on....................
Time wasted is opportunity squandered. [/B]

Right...but we are talking about losing money...not theortical opportunity..

1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
This thread is a great thought provoking tool for those that want to learn the difference between running a business and just buying themselves a job.

Thanks dvm, that's what I thought too.
I initially posed this question to Mr. Bobby Gedd. You know what he says? He says, "i can really tell when you get desperate trying to "stump me", you're reaching, really, you are".......

Me trying to stump the lawn professional?? ;)

EastProLawn
08-13-2004, 10:09 PM
Time is money, end of story, some of you guys are actually going against your own rules and so called contract stipulations, why do you put all those crazy policies on paper and make the customer sign if it wasn't all about the money, it doesn't matter if you are solo, have 3,4,5 or 50 employees, time is money if your not working during "WORKING HOURS" whatever that may be then you are losing money, not opportunity, you are losing money....

If you complete "x" amount of lawns under the alotted time then you have made a higher profit, if you complete "x" amount of lawns beyond the alotted hours you have made a lesser profit, which is in fact a loss, BUSINESS 101.......have a nice day:D

KenH
08-13-2004, 10:14 PM
My business is a Corp. I draw a paycheck as would any other employee. Lets say I make the corp. 100$ a day, and I get paid $10 per hour for a normal 5 hour day. On a typical day, I would draw a check from the corp for $50.00 after I produced 100. Now lets say my day was stretched to 6 hours because of traffic. I still produced the 100, but now I drew a check for $60. The business lost money because that time sitting there in the truck was not getting any monetary return. It is the thought that your time as a solo business owner is worthless that is very dangerous. If you dont pay yourself for paperwork time, drive time, equipment maintenance time, financially you are not doing as well as you think you are. You might be better off working at Walmart.

Lets say you mow 1 lawn which takes 1 hour. You make 35$. You think you are king. Now lets say on detour day you get home 3 hours later. You just made less than 12$ per hour. Factor in insurance, taxes, blah blah blah, you could have spent those 3 hours working for someone else making more than you did with your solo business. If you dont think time IS money, you are seriously shortchanging yourself. The sooner you realize this, the better businessman/woman you will be.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
she lost opportunity then, correct? she didn't lose actual dollars. she didn't leave the house with $200 in her pocket, and only come home with $100. correct? she lost the OPPORTUNITY to perhaps increase her client base, which we both know may, or may not have happened. correct? i knew you'd see it my way.




Incorrect.

I ALWAYS have income producing work to do during working hours.
The more I get done during those hours the more I can line up for the next group of hours.
It is called being productive.
If you are not being productive during working hours you are losing money from a BUSINESS perspective.
I don't care how you spend YOUR hours during the day if you want to have a job.
I don't want a job, I've had them for 24 years, I want an income producing business.
Big difference between a job on a mower and a business.

EastProLawn
08-13-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by KenH
Lets say I make the corp. 100$ a day, and I get paid $10 per hour for a normal 5 hour day. On a typical day, I would draw a check from the corp for $50.00 after I produced 100. Now lets say my day was stretched to 6 hours because of traffic. I still produced the 100, but now I drew a check for $60. Exactly my point, and it works for large companies and solo operators as well, like I said earlier BUSINESS 101.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by KenH
My business is a Corp. I draw a paycheck as would any other employee. Lets say I make the corp. 100$ a day, and I get paid $10 per hour for a normal 5 hour day. On a typical day, I would draw a check from the corp for $50.00 after I produced 100. Now lets say my day was stretched to 6 hours because of traffic. I still produced the 100, but now I drew a check for $60. The business lost money because that time sitting there in the truck was not getting any monetary return. It is the thought that your time as a solo business owner is worthless that is very dangerous. If you dont pay yourself for paperwork time, drive time, equipment maintenance time, financially you are not doing as well as you think you are. You might be better off working at Walmart.

Lets say you mow 1 lawn which takes 1 hour. You make 35$. You think you are king. Now lets say on detour day you get home 3 hours later. You just made less than 12$ per hour. Factor in insurance, taxes, blah blah blah, you could have spent those 3 hours working for someone else making more than you did with your solo business. If you dont think time IS money, you are seriously shortchanging yourself. The sooner you realize this, the better businessman/woman you will be.





Well said.

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by 1MajorTom
Thanks dvm, that's what I thought too.
I initially posed this question to Mr. Bobby Gedd. You know what he says? He says, "i can really tell when you get desperate trying to "stump me", you're reaching, really, you are".......

Me trying to stump the lawn professional?? ;)





He would be absolutely correct Jodi................
You are reaching...............

For the stars rather than the curb.......................:D

Aleman
08-13-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by KenH
[B

Lets say you mow 1 lawn which takes 1 hour. You make 35$. You think you are king. Now lets say on detour day you get home 3 hours later. You just made less than 12$ per hour. Factor in insurance, taxes, blah blah blah, you could have spent those 3 hours working for someone else making more than you did with your solo business. If you dont think time IS money, you are seriously shortchanging yourself. The sooner you realize this, the better businessman/woman you will be. [/B]

I dont know any real businessmen/women who are on an hourly rate....

KenH
08-13-2004, 10:30 PM
I just paid an independent attorney $250 PER HOUR to settle some zoning issues....hmmmm.

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 10:33 PM
so then, assuming u are correct....will this loss of income be shown on your tax return? if your route was exactly the same last year, and you grossed 100 grand, will your gross, or net be less this year? and once again, all you who agree with her, you are losing an outragous amount of money as we speak, and on sunday while your'e watching football, and at 6 pm when you're having dinner with the kids instead of mowing, you are losing money. in fact, there are 24 hrs in a day. if you spend 8 of them working, and 16 of them doing other things, you are losing money for 16 hrs a day. how do you survive like this? and i'm still waiting for my answer, how much money, in dollars and cents, did you lose jodi?

EastProLawn
08-13-2004, 10:35 PM
Bobby, Bobby, Bobby, you of all people ( when it comes to losing or making money ) I looked to you for the right answers.... I'm very shocked and disappointed....oh well I'm over it.....LOL:D

KenH
08-13-2004, 10:36 PM
The loss of income will be reflected in the business. It would have to be.

You are confusing your business/work week with your free time. Im not working now, but am not losing money. If you cant differentiate the 2, your thought process is screwy.

1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by KenH

..... your thought process is screwy.

You're just figuring this out finally?? :laugh:
Thanks dvm and Ken for explaining this better than I could to him.

KenH
08-13-2004, 10:39 PM
I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old. They prepare me well.......

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 10:46 PM
ok, this will help everybody with the problem. Let's see how many people know this answer

What does it cost you per hour to do business?

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 10:47 PM
you are all wrong. that's the end of that. YOU ARE CONFUSING hourly rates with piece work. you are calculating on the assumption that the loss of 20 min or whatever it was automatically would have been an additional lawn. wrong, wrong, wrong. there are only 90 lawns, when they are done, they are done. period. the gross, and net stays the same reguardless of wether it took 40 hrs, or 75 hrs. there are 90 lawns, they pay only xxx amount of money, they don't pay more if you cut them faster, they don't pay less if you cut them slower. now, in your reference to thinking like a businessman, and not an employee, it is you folks, who are thinking like an employee. using your logic, the only way to make more money, is to do more work....

EastProLawn
08-13-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by tiedeman

What does it cost you per hour to do business? Too much ! LOL :D
It's actually pretty hard to get an accurate figure, you pretty much have to guessimate ( Guess & Estimate ) and then work from there...

tiedeman
08-13-2004, 10:51 PM
based on 1440 hours, last year it ws $25.58 per hour, this year $14.07 per hour.

EastProLawn
08-13-2004, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
using your logic, the only way to make more money, is to do more work.... Exactly, thus proving that time is money, the more time that you have is more money in your pocket, but if you are stuck in traffic or held up for some other reason then you are losing money.....
Let's see hmmmm...

$1500 divided by 40 = $37.50 per hour
$1500 divided by 50 = $30.00 per hour

HMMMMMMMMMM:rolleyes: didn't lose anything huh !

Avery
08-13-2004, 10:57 PM
It may cost you a little if you are solo, but it will cost much more with employees. Solo you can just work a little longer and make up the difference. Labor is my biggest cost. Would not be as big a deal if it were just me sitting in traffic.

bobbygedd
08-13-2004, 11:01 PM
that's it, that was the last straw. i'm convinced you are all nuts. i refuse to sit here and be abused. i'm putting you all on ignore, every one of you, the entire site, 20,000 people on ignore. from now on, i'll just read my own posts, and reply to them. good ridence

1MajorTom
08-13-2004, 11:02 PM
Bobby,
You can't put me on ignore... Go ahead and try it. ;)

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by tiedeman
ok, this will help everybody with the problem. Let's see how many people know this answer

What does it cost you per hour to do business?





Good question.
Every answer will be different based on # of hours,overhead, insurance costs, etc.
The answer is we ALL have costs per hour wether solo or multi crewed, something for everyone to think about next time they are sitting in traffic...............LOL!

EastProLawn
08-13-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
that's it, that was the last straw. i'm convinced you are all nuts. i refuse to sit here and be abused. i'm putting you all on ignore, every one of you, the entire site, 20,000 people on ignore. from now on, i'll just read my own posts, and reply to them. good ridence Thank god, it's about time.... LMAO:D Ding Dong the witch is dead......LOL:D

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
so then, assuming u are correct....will this loss of income be shown on your tax return?

1) Yes it will be shown on the return, there will be less income to show rather than a growth in income from year to year.


if your route was exactly the same last year, and you grossed 100 grand, will your gross, or net be less this year?

2) Your net CERTAINLY will be,fixed costs do not EVER go down from year to year.


and once again, all you who agree with her, you are losing an outragous amount of money as we speak, and on sunday while your'e watching football, and at 6 pm when you're having dinner with the kids instead of mowing, you are losing money. in fact, there are 24 hrs in a day. if you spend 8 of them working, and 16 of them doing other things, you are losing money for 16 hrs a day. how do you survive like this?

3) I survive by producing as much income as I can during BUSINESS hours,not liesure time.


and i'm still waiting for my answer, how much money, in dollars and cents, did you lose jodi?


4)If her goal rate is the magic dollar per minute that so many speak of then she lost a dollar for every minute she was not producing.




Tell me Mr. Gedd,When you were printing for a living did you volunteer your time to the company for free? Or did you EXPECT to get paid for every minute you where there?

Please explain the difference........................

dvmcmrhp52
08-13-2004, 11:12 PM
By the way bob, it's spelled riddance..........:D

Pecker
08-13-2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Fvstringpicker
opportunity cost.


There's the answer.

DALMlawn&landscaping
08-14-2004, 12:34 AM
if i was stuck in traffic, no way would i expect to get paid, i'm doing nothing, just sitting there... so no employee cost there. and basically, once all your yards are done in a week, you can't start on next weeks yards because its not "next week". and if you were in traffic for 30 minutes a day for four weeks, you mean to tell me that, all those other times that you weren't stuck in traffic, you'd be doing more work:D yeah, right... i guess now that economics class isn't all that its cracked up to be. when you're done- you're done, you still make the same amount of money, and if your employees want to get paid for sitting in traffic, tell them to drive next time, and as soon as they leave, the pay stops... and they can sit in traffic, not making any money, just like you.

bobbygedd
08-14-2004, 07:23 AM
when i was at the printshop, it was pre arranged, i was an hourly employee, not a piece worker. so yes, i expected to be paid for every hour. tell me, since you consider yourself an hourly employee, if you get stuck in traffic for 10 hrs, how will you get the 10 hrs pay? do you spread out your hourly rate over all your clients, and bill them each a few bucks for your loss? how do they react when they get a bill with a "traffic charge, loss of wages" itemized on it? you are wrong, wrong, wrong. we can argue all day and night about it. for every thing you come up with, i can come up with two. jodi ran out of ammo long ago, and now relies on you guys to make her case sound legit. hourly operating costs, are not really hourly operating costs to the solo bozo. they are yearly or seasonal operating costs. my insurence is not paid by the hour, my permits are not paid by the hour, my fuel is not paid by the hour. we only break them down to hourly costs so we can pound our chests and say, "look at me everybody, i'm a pathetic lawnboy, and i STILL MAKE $60 per hour." ok, back to the printshop. during slow periods, we would sometimes be called off. of course i loved it, but my co workers would cry and moan, "i lost 8 hrs pay, that's xxx amount of money." fact is, they lost nothing. they were selling hours. they didn't have the OPPORTUNITY to sell any hours that day, they neither lost or made money. jodi sells lawncuts. 90 a week. she sold the same 90 lawncuts that week.

1MajorTom
08-14-2004, 08:12 AM
So Bobby, let me make sure I understand this.
For anyone solo, it doesn't matter what they make per hour.
Because their time really isn't important. Time to them only has a personal value, not a monetary value. So a solo person that services 90 lawns, for them if they get them done in 40 hours, great. If not and it takes them 70 hours, oh well, that time didn't really matter anyways when it came to costs. Just as long as they complete the route at the end of the week, time wasn't even considered in running their business. Is this correct?

PMLAWN
08-14-2004, 08:30 AM
My costs are all based on 80 hours of work produced by a truck per week and intrest and taxes and insurance are divided that way so if a truck stops production those costs are still ticking away. I believe that I am losing money sitting in traffic. My life is more than just work and if I am not home when I should be than I may have to pay to get a service done that I would have done myself. Again I believe I lost money. I also have other income producing things going on that need attention and if I am unable to attend to them than again I have lost.
Overall big picture I look to be productive all day in one way or another so sitting in traffic is a loser.

HOMER
08-14-2004, 08:54 AM
If I don't work.......I don't make money. If something is holding me up.....like this right now, then I am not out there making money.

Free time is time off the imaginary clock.
Work time is the hours you intend to work.......if your not working during those hours then you could say you were losing money.......you aren't generating income sitting in traffic and your still on your imaginary clock.

If I had a retail store and I was the only one there but had a regular customer base...............I closed the doors for 40 minutes one day so I could take care of some business, nature called and there was a good magazine in there, there would be my regular customers that could not get in right? Well then, I lost that revenue for that period of time cause I have a closing time.....I can't get that back on that day cause Joe Shmoe has moved on.

Yes, in my opinion you are losing money.

Now get me off here so I can go make some today!

KenH
08-14-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
. so yes, i expected to be paid for every hour. tell me, since you consider yourself an hourly employee, if you get stuck in traffic for 10 hrs, how will you get the 10 hrs pay?

You dont even realize it, but you just proved our point. See, I knew you would see it our way eventually.



You wont get those 10 hours back, you LOST them.

NickN
08-14-2004, 11:02 AM
Haven't seen you around much Homer.How's things in H'ville?

Critical Care
08-14-2004, 03:06 PM
I work solo, and I routinely get delays in my route. My work is soooo much easier when I don’t have to deal with these detours in my work, whatever they may be. But as a sole proprietor can I tell my wife, who is a tax auditor, that I lost money because I was tied up in traffic? And, if my route for the day grossed $250, and normally took 8 hours to complete, that equates to $31.25 per hour. But now, if it took me 9 hours to complete the $250 route, then that computes to less than $28 per hour. If I could chalk that difference off as a loss than that would be great… but ya’ know, it just ain’t gonna fly. If it did work as a loss, then by golly I wouldn’t mind taking the long way home everyday just so I could ease my tax burden!

And if you’re going to look at this as a theoretical issue that time is money, than lets face it that there is no limit to what we could be making. A corporate lawyer working for Microsoft would look at our most profitable hours as being losses. So where do we set the standard?

As strange as it may seem… but on this issue I have to side with Bobby Gedd. Oh my garsh!

Aleman
08-14-2004, 03:57 PM
I couldnt have said it better myself....very well put Critical Care..

KenH
08-14-2004, 04:23 PM
Dont you guys keep business and personal records separate?? (Meaning the business pays your first.....??) If this is the case, as it should be, then you are taking more money out of the business to pay yourself for the added time, although no added income was made. So yes, the business is losing money and it will show up on profit loss sheets, how can it not??? You are working longer hours and not producing any added income. Its as simple as that.

If you guys are just lumping all expenses together and cant differentiate between business and personal, then Lawnsite cant help you.

If you guys arent keeping accurate records and just taking money from the business when you need it, then I wouldnt expect you to realize you are losing money.

Racer99
08-14-2004, 04:35 PM
Who cares, as long as you get the job done...That's what your are doing anyway...Gosh!

Tim Canavan
08-14-2004, 04:54 PM
I she took a detour that took her out of her way driving, the she must have spent more money in gas, right? There is your loss of money for the day. Only for a solo operator of course.

Oldtimer
08-14-2004, 05:57 PM
If anyone thinks their time isn't worth anything then come mow my yard with some of that free time.

Oldtimer

HOMER
08-14-2004, 06:16 PM
Mine too.........I'm tired of doin' it

Native
08-14-2004, 06:37 PM
I was just looking at this thread and it made me think, What do you do for rain, down time with machine's, filling up mower's trimmers etc. when they run out if not filled in advance little things that will happen all the time but try to plan for to keep time productive. The one thing you can always count on is the unexpected.
What if you had just started this route and didn't have to worry about it holding you up it would just be a part of your daily drive and when it was over you would be going hey I'm getting done sooner than I was before so don't beat your self up over it thing's happen.
Our line of work is not based on a set time because we have variable's to deal with every day to get out job's done. This is why you have to base your prices with a little over to compensate for the unexpected. If you worked inside and didn't have weather or traffic to deal with then you could say hey I make X # of $'s per hour but we don't we just have to over come and adapt to make sure were finished at the end of the week to start all over again the next week.
I have several employees and I know you can't put a fixed time on your week or day of work because their is always something new that come's up to deal with and it's how we deal with it and get the job's done that matters.

I don't know if this help's or not but just my view on thing's.

Good luck and I hope I didn't lose any money posting this. LOL

P.S. You could always leave earlier.

Oldtimer
08-14-2004, 07:10 PM
I guess a LCO really doesn't have anything to sell but his time. He has to decide how much his time is worth in his market or area. Each working or workable day has an hourly value potential. The LCO has to decide how much of this potential he will be satisfied with.

Some people are easily satisfied with enough to get by and others want to reach their full potential plus some.

Each LCO can decide how he wants to be recognized. There are those who play to win and those who play not to lose.

Oldtimer

Ray & Karen
08-14-2004, 07:11 PM
Well I am not afraid to admit this, but I whole heartedly agree with Bobby, in fact I agree with most of his decisions. He an I think along the same lines. When you are mowing lawns, you are doing piece work, not hourly work. It would be up to and to your advantage for you to make short tight routes to make more money per hour. Another suggestions for Jodi and her husband would be to avoid detours.

bobbygedd
08-14-2004, 07:21 PM
don't be afraid ray. in fact, edison was thought to be a nutcase, and, well, if you have lights, thank him for it. i think most people here agree with most of my views, but are afraid to admit it. they are afraid, because it would mean they have to look in the mirror and say, "what have i been thinking all these years? i wish i knew bobby sooner."

Ray & Karen
08-14-2004, 07:39 PM
It is what it is.....

1MajorTom
08-14-2004, 07:45 PM
Hey, I'm not offended.
Some people have a clue, others can't even buy one.

Ray, thanks for that shred of wisdom, I never thought once to avoid that a darn detour. :rolleyes:
It's a shame there's only one way down that hollow, and with the road caved in, we're forced to circle around. Any other routes would even be longer.

bobbygedd
08-14-2004, 07:51 PM
major tom, be graceful in defeat. bow your head, and say, "bobby, once again, you are correct." simple logic has the favor of at least the better members here, certainly, the more intelligent. oh, and pay your debt sweety

Ray & Karen
08-14-2004, 07:54 PM
Jodi,

what were Yins were doing driving down the hollow anyhow. Yins don't have them in western Pa. Yins have a valley down by the crick.

1MajorTom
08-14-2004, 07:54 PM
I prefer to hear what GeeVee has to say.
Anyways, everyone else quit replying when they realized that you are too stubborn to admit you're wrong. They know your views are skewed.

Four C. Landscaping
08-14-2004, 07:56 PM
I cant believe that any one that is in this business would say that you are not losing money.Are these people just charging by the job or by the TIME IT TAKES TO DO THE JOB.And when you are behind because you now have one extra lawn to add to the next day and you can count on being out till 8:00 to make it up is this not an expense?
One person or 20 is not the issue.Time wasted is money lost.

bobbygedd
08-14-2004, 07:58 PM
gee vee couldn't shine my freakin boots. anyhow, right about now, he's saving ric and rics blowup doll from the rough waters of the gulf.

Critical Care
08-14-2004, 11:42 PM
Hey, I just noticed that the title of this thread is “Working solo - Your time doesn't matter???” That is not the same as “time is money."

As a solo operator my time matters very much Jodi, and the stinking detours are a pain in the arsh, but the extra time it takes me to get from point A to point B I cannot legally justify as an expense. Detours will cost me time, but not money – outside of the gas used, and even that is a normal operating expense regardless of how many miles traveled.

Consider two employees, both working for the same company, both getting paid the same, and who both also have to drive 15 miles to work. It takes however one employee twice as long to drive to work as the other simply because he lives down a narrow windy road. Are you saying that since time is money then this guy is losing money by taking twice as long to drive to work? I’d like to see him try to pass that by the IRS as a loss to income.

bobbygedd
08-15-2004, 06:32 AM
i think jodi is finally starting to see the light. repeat after me, "you're right AGAIN, sir."

GroundKprs
08-15-2004, 07:24 AM
So, Bobby, it's no loss to spend 9 hours on 8 hours of work?

Would it be a loss if you had to spend 15 hours to get that 8 hours done, and therefore could not get next day's route done? You'd surely be short money then.

bobbygedd
08-15-2004, 07:38 AM
we don't sell time, we sell a service. i know that it would be ideal to get my $30 lawns done in 25 min or less, but that doesn't mean, after 25 minutes,if the service isn't complete, i shut it down and and leave, does it? no, i have to complete the service. if a problem caused you to miss the next days lawns, your monetary loss would be the money it costs you to operate that day. for example, if you mentaly break your costs down to daily operating costs: $3 a day for telephone, $15 a day for insurence, etc. other than that, you may have lost the OPPORTUNITY to make money, but you haven't lost money itself. if i have 10 lawns scheduled for tommorow, at $30 each, and i don't cut them, i have not LOST $300. same scenerio with being late for the horserace. if you read that far back. by getting to the track late, i did not LOSE $100. i lost the OPPORTUNITY to MAKE $100. by skipping the next days lawns, will $300 dissapear from my bank account? a LOSS is when you have something, and then don't have it anymore. like me being the genius i am, i bought lucent tech stock at $82 a share, now THAT'S what i call losing money!

dishboy
08-15-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
we don't sell time, we sell a service. i know that it would be ideal to get my $30 lawns done in 25 min or less, but that doesn't mean, after 25 minutes,if the service isn't complete, i shut it down and and leave, does it? no, i have to complete the service. if a problem caused you to miss the next days lawns, your monetary loss would be the money it costs you to operate that day. for example, if you mentaly break your costs down to daily operating costs: $3 a day for telephone, $15 a day for insurence, etc. other than that, you may have lost the OPPORTUNITY to make money, but you haven't lost money itself. if i have 10 lawns scheduled for tommorow, at $30 each, and i don't cut them, i have not LOST $300. same scenerio with being late for the horserace. if you read that far back. by getting to the track late, i did not LOSE $100. i lost the OPPORTUNITY to MAKE $100. by skipping the next days lawns, will $300 dissapear from my bank account? a LOSS is when you have something, and then don't have it anymore. like me being the genius i am, i bought lucent tech stock at $82 a share, now THAT'S what i call losing money!

Nice theory unless you are loaded with work and it is time sensitive like spraying nutsedge or crabgrass at the opportune time or pruning and the client goes ahead and does the project himself or has it done because you did not get it done. So anytime I am down during my normal hours of operation I lose money off my annual income because I am not willing to give up my evening or weekends because something steals my time away. In my case I lost income because it is my choice to set boundries on not letting this job consume my free time.

1MajorTom
08-15-2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
i think jodi is finally starting to see the light. repeat after me, "you're right AGAIN, sir."

Nope, not quite, I just realize that you are so thick headed, you aren't able to listen to reason. I think the more you type, the more you think you are right.

kris
08-15-2004, 09:29 AM
First of all I have to admit I didnt read every post in this thread.

I have seen this soooooo many times. Business owners that don't think their time is worth anything. They do extra things here and there because "it's not really costing them anything".

Your not selling time? It's ALL about time.

BTW Jodi.....why am I not suprised to hear about a crappy road there? LOL

1MajorTom
08-15-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by kris
First of all I have to admit I didnt read every post in this thread.

I have seen this soooooo many times. Business owners that don't think their time is worth anything. They do extra things here and there because "it's not really costing them anything".

Your not selling time? It's ALL about time.

BTW Jodi.....why am I not suprised to hear about a crappy road there? LOL

Kris,
Don't you start now. ;)
We may have bad roads here, but the positives outweigh the potholes......
It's funny you said this kris about doing extras, cause we all know Bobby wouldn't lift a finger do a single extra for any customer. But now he claims that when he looks at time, his time is only about personal value not monetary value........ yeah right

odin
08-15-2004, 10:07 AM
time is everything ..that 30 minutes could mean me not haveing the time to maintain equipment at the end of the day ....its just like the extra 2 minutes on average each property it takes the sthil to blow off drives longer then it does the echo....my wife told me whats 2 minutes ..i told her times those two minutes by 30 ....thats a hour.

I know actually all most to a sec all aspects of my time on all properties And all travel time .....because TIME IS MONEY.

EastProLawn
08-15-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by 1MajorTom
Nope, not quite, I just realize that you are so thick headed, you aren't able to listen to reason. I think the more you type, the more you think you are right. I have too agree with Jodi on that one, thick, thick, thick........:p

Critical Care
08-15-2004, 12:22 PM
Ah come on guys. There seem to be a lot of people who speak out of both sides of their mouths. They talk about how much money they’re making per hour in some threads and yet now they talk about how much money they lose from detours, sheep crossing the road, and nutsedge. I bet if you’d put your business up for sale these losses would suddenly disappear.

And be careful when you say something like “So anytime I am down during my normal hours of operation I lose money off my annual income…” as Dishboy said, because these statements can only be true as far as job costing, but surely not true for tax purposes. You won’t be able to explain your way out of an audit by trying to justify losses to your income as being missed opportunities, bathroom breaks, or even rain days.

And Odin, pure efficiency will never be achieved. It's an impossible goal, and if you're basing your business upon an unachievable standard, then in theory you will always have a loss.

odin
08-15-2004, 01:07 PM
maybe not todal effciency ...but i get it down pretty good lots of little things add 5 or 10 miuntes to the clock ...stuff like haveing to respool string trimmers ..i keep fresh spools in everybodys pocket ..they run out they dont have to possibly lose 5 or 10 minutes takeing time to go to the truck to get line and respool .

Time is money and little things add up ....my profit margins are quite abit above average

bobbygedd
08-15-2004, 01:23 PM
yes but odin you have employees. we are talking solo here

Critical Care
08-15-2004, 01:57 PM
Uh huh, big difference. If I had to take money out of my business for every hour I work, like paying employees, then of course every little thing would add up... and lost or wasted time literally would mean money.

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
major tom, be graceful in defeat. bow your head, and say, "bobby, once again, you are correct." simple logic has the favor of at least the better members here, certainly, the more intelligent. oh, and pay your debt sweety





The "better members"????
The "more intelligent"????



Just TOO funny robert, just TOO funny.

I'm running a business not a piece priced bought job from printing revenues.
You believe what you like but I can certainly back up my way of thinking with any truly succesful (read multi million) business owner.
I'm not a solo, but it doesn't change the realities of time being a LIMITED commodity. You either choose to use it or choose to LOSE it.
The choice is your's.

bobbygedd
08-16-2004, 08:05 PM
oh now you gotta make fun of my printing background? you're reaching dv, you're reaching. that was my trade, i wish i started this earlier, but i didn't. i'm still right, and you are not. but i don't have to talk bad about you

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2004, 08:12 PM
Oh now I'm talking bad???????????


Plleeease..................
Reaching???????????


Yes,once again I am.................
For the stars rather than the curb...............
There is a difference in the mindset.

And I don't really care what you used to do, My brother ran presses for 15 years..............

txlawnking
08-16-2004, 08:19 PM
At least to ME, my time is worth something.. Whether it's time at church, or in the community serving others, here on LS learning or maybe teaching, or on the site making $$ every second of my life I will be held accountable for to my Lord... I value EVERY second of my life... You only get one life to live on this Earth, and I try to make every moment count for the positive.....Solo, or 1,000 employee's.. My TIME is worth something to me.

KenH
08-16-2004, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Critical Care
Uh huh, big difference. If I had to take money out of my business for every hour I work, like paying employees, then of course every little thing would add up... and lost or wasted time literally would mean money.


So then how do you pay yourself??

Even when I was DBA, I still kept 'paychecks' separate. How do you know if your business is profitable??

MJM
08-16-2004, 09:19 PM
"And Odin, pure efficiency will never be achieved. It's an impossible goal, and if you're basing your business upon an unachievable standard, then in theory you will always have a loss."

Is this true of just solo's or co's w/ employees?

Mark

MJM
08-16-2004, 09:29 PM
What is the ONE thing we all have in common?

We sell TIME!!


We PROVIDE a service for that time. But, we sell time just as a plumber or lawyer does. Each gets paid differently for the perceived value of that TIME, but time is what we all sell.

Now Bobby, from reading your post on lawnsite it would seem you are trying to split hairs here to get a reaction. The only problem is that many here will listen to what you are saying and think it is true. The way this thread was titled one could hold an arguement for your side, (slightly) but I don't think that was what was intended here. It is my hope that alot of people hope to expand their buisnes, (no offense to those who don't) and this is really a thought provoking thread on the next step. Alot better to learn these simple ideas as a solo then when you have 10 employees!

Mark

BTW: Your right, GeeVee couldn't shine your boots, but he could teach you alot about buisness.

EastProLawn
08-16-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by txlawnking
Solo, or 1,000 employee's.. My TIME is worth something to me. Well said TXLawnKing, that's the bottom line, no matter how you slice it, time is valuable......period. The main theme behind the thread was exactly that " Does your time matter" even if you are solo.....YES is does....

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by EastProLawn
Well said TXLawnKing, that's the bottom line, no matter how you slice it, time is valuable......period. The main theme behind the thread was exactly that " Does your time matter" even if you are solo.....YES is does....




EXACTLY!

odin
08-16-2004, 10:22 PM
Right on you aint just s h i t in corn in a rice paddy time matter's and is valuable in any operation .

HOOLIE
08-16-2004, 11:19 PM
If I can put my 2 cents in one last time. Keep in mind I don't have an economics degree, but I DID stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night-

The way I read the original post by Jodi was, does the time spent taking the detour "cost" a solo operator?

By saying cost, you are implying that somehow, money is coming out of your pocket. Now, for the solo operator with a finite number of mowing customers, no, you're not losing any money most likely. Unless you work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week and can't get all your lawns done.

Sure it costs you some of your free time. But thats how it goes sometimes. You can theorize about how you could spend the time prospecting for new clients, but you can theorize about that while you are detouring.

Sometimes, an unexpected break can re-energize you. Maybe they work faster after a nice, refreshing detour.

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2004, 11:21 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HOOLIE
[

Sure it costs you some of your free time.


Please explain why a solo operator's time is "free"?
My time is never free.

HOOLIE
08-16-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HOOLIE
[

Sure it costs you some of your free time.


Please explain why a solo operator's time is "free"?
My time is never free.

Are you suggesting that I "charge" my kids $30 an hour to play with them after work... there's a big difference between billable time and free time. Maybe I should charge you for the time its taking me to respond to this.

1MajorTom
08-16-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by dvmcmrhp52


Please explain why a solo operator's time is "free"?
My time is never free.


Agree 100%

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by HOOLIE
Are you suggesting that I "charge" my kids $30 an hour to play with them after work... there's a big difference between billable time and free time. Maybe I should charge you for the time its taking me to respond to this.




Correct.
Billable time is when you are working.
Jodi is working in this scenario...............

HOOLIE
08-16-2004, 11:30 PM
I'm going up to raid the kids piggy banks right now. Unfortunately, Jodi can't bill the Dept of Transportation for time spent in detour... or can she?

bobbygedd
08-16-2004, 11:33 PM
you are confusing NOT MAKING MONEY, with LOSING MONEY.

dvmcmrhp52
08-16-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
you are confusing NOT MAKING MONEY, with LOSING MONEY.




Same thing.

bobbygedd
08-16-2004, 11:48 PM
you keep saying you're selling time. so, am i to understand, if you price a property as a 30 minute cutting service, and one day you don't get it all done in 30 min, do you pack up and leave the job unfinished? you did indeed spend the 30 minutes there, and if you are selling time, then the time spent is 30 min. you are done, and you bill them? correct?

Critical Care
08-17-2004, 12:54 AM
Not making money is not the same as losing money.

Some people go to Vegas and lose money, others sit home and watch television while they could be earining money. One has lost money, the other has lost the opportunity to make money.

And KenH... I am the business, owner and operator, but not an employee. If I need money for personal use, I simply take money out of the business account - a personal draw. It's not a loss, not a gain, and it doesn't figure into the profit and loss of the company. It's a change in equity and appears on the balance sheet. Generally Accepted Accounting Principals (GAAP).

KenH
08-17-2004, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by Critical Care

And KenH... I am the business, owner and operator, but not an employee. If I need money for personal use, I simply take money out of the business account - a personal draw. It's not a loss, not a gain, and it doesn't figure into the profit and loss of the company. It's a change in equity and appears on the balance sheet. Generally Accepted Accounting Principals (GAAP).

IMO, this is the biggest mistake I hear small owners making. They dont differentiate personal and business. They pull money out as needed, and can never get a good grasp on how profitable the BUSINESS actually is. (For example, is your equipment making you money??? ie. if your mower went down today would you have to take money out of pocket to buy a new one, or can your business handle it??) Having work and being profitable are 2 issues I see confused all to often.

When I was young, my Aunt, who is a cert. CPA, taught me a valuable lesson which I still use today. Keep the business end separate, even in a DBA. This way you will always, at first glance, see where the business is headed. If you need to draw $1000 a month for living expenses, and you are left with 10$ at the EOM in the business account, you know what??? Your business is not profitable. You would never know this if you mesh everything together, and this is why businesses fail.

Critical Care
08-17-2004, 03:36 PM
Ken, I’m not a whiz in accounting, but hopefully I’ve learned a little about accounting practices from having been a full-charge bookkeeper, and having had a bookkeeping business. You better believe it that I differentiate between what is business and what is personal. But I have a feeling that perhaps you do not understand the principles behind basic accounting.

In your example, if you pull $1000 out of the business at the end of the month for living expenses then that is called a personal draw. Okay, repeat after me, “It does not change what the business made or loss.” It may be hard to grasp, but just because you take money out of the business account that doesn’t mean that the business has just had a loss. It’s a change is operating capital, not a loss. The reason is because operating expenses, income, gains, and losses determine the profit and loss of the business. When you draw money out of your business account for personal reasons it’s called a personal draw, not an expense, and not a loss. If you don’t have enough money in the business account – like when you first started your business - then you have to make an investment or a “contribution to equity.” This is not income, nor a gain. Take a look below at what this Balance Sheet is, and then what makes up your Profit and Loss.

Balance Sheet (http://www.dealconsulting.com/finance/balance.html)
Profit and Loss (http://www.dealconsulting.com/finance/profloss.html)

KenH
08-17-2004, 05:11 PM
...but if that 1000$ is a wage, from services performed, in our example, sitting in traffic for an extra hour, then it becomes a liability.


"Liabilities are obligations the company must pay. These include accounts payable, bank debt, prepayment by customers, taxes and wages owed."


I will assume you are well aware how untracked liabilities can negatively affect a co.

Remsen1
08-17-2004, 05:28 PM
If you can take $1000 out for yourself (and all the business expenses are paid) then the business IS profitable, just not very profitable.

Business profitability has nothing to do with how much it cost one to live one's personal life.

Remsen1
08-17-2004, 07:09 PM
Bobby, Mileage is an expense. 36 minutes probably amounts to two gallons of gas. At $2 per gallon. $2 is lost. If this happens every week for a year $104 lost per year. As for the question of loosing money for the time, you're right, no actual money was lost. However the question is whether a solo operators time is worth anything? Maybe not in terms of dollar and cents in this scenario, but all time even personal time is worth something. Can all time be equated to a business loss, no. Is it a personal loss, yes unless you like driving your truck around (I'm sure some people actually enjoy driving).

KenH
08-17-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Remsen1
If you can take $1000 out for yourself (and all the business expenses are paid) then the business IS profitable, just not very profitable.

Business profitability has nothing to do with how much it cost one to live one's personal life. \



If you are drawing a paycheck, it most definately does.

My business could net 10k, but I need 20k to live....is my business profitable to me???

Remsen1
08-17-2004, 08:11 PM
business profit has nothing to do with personal expenses.

if i start with $1, use that dollar to conduct business, then end up with $2 after paying all business expenses, I made $1 profit.

you're confusing "profit" with "enough profit". profit is profit is profit.

KenH
08-17-2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Remsen1
business profit has nothing to do with personal expenses.

if i start with $1, use that dollar to conduct business, then end up with $2 after paying all business expenses, I made $1 profit.

you're confusing "profit" with "enough profit". profit is profit is profit.

So anyone who makes anything is running a profitable business??? Sounds a bit corny.


The reason I have a business is to support mine and my families lifestyle. If I can do this, I consider my business profitable. If I cant, I better look for a different line of work. Its as simple as that. Do you work for a different reason???

What do you consider profitable then??


WHEN YOU PAY YOURSELF YOU ARE TAKING OUT OF YOUR BUSINESS' PROFITS.....I DONT CARE WHAT YOU CALL IT, BUT THAT IS WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TOO. (yes I was yelling....hehe)

bobbygedd
08-17-2004, 08:56 PM
if you start with $1,000, and end up with $2,000, you have made a profit of $1,000. if you can't live on that $1,000, that's a different story, but the profit was made

EastProLawn
08-17-2004, 10:14 PM
Let's say Bobby has some Lawns and I have some lawns, if I give Bobby one of my lawns we will have the exact same amount, but if Bobby gives me one of his lawns I'll have double the amount of lawns that Bobby will have, how many lawns do we have together....:confused: :confused:

Mowses
08-17-2004, 10:59 PM
For the record i have a background in supply chain management and manufacturing so i know how to crunch numbers. I've worked for 3 multinational companies and still work full time for 1 of them managing 2 countries. So whilst i know jack about grass and plants i do know a lot about business and statistics.

It appears the arguments are based on 2 interpretations of the question. First is the way Bobby and most of you responded in that if there is $400/day to be made in 8hrs and for some reason there is a delay and it took 10hrs but still made the same money, then nothing is lost. Yes that is correct in terms of total dollar work completed. If i was a 10yr old kid washing cars then i would look at it this way. When you are running a business/company then you will be comparing efficiency and work completed. So for $400 dollars earned over 8hrs is $50/hr (100% efficiency). Compare that to the delayed $400 over 10hrs is $40/hr (80% efficiency). So you lost $10/hr because of the delays. If you think $40/hr and $50/hr are the same thing you're an idiot. This is basic stuff and there's no excuse for not knowing this if you are operating a business. Afterall there seems to be a lot of experts on here giving advice......

Labour is always broken down into man hours, even those on salary. You might only see a weekly number but in finance they will have broken it down into an hourly rate. It's especially important for manufacturing plants and services to know the hourly figure and budgeted hours otherwise how can you tell if you're making good money and measure your efficiency ?? If after 14 pages you still think $40/hr and $50/hr are then you really are an idiot. Hope i added some helpful comments to this thread.

kris
08-17-2004, 11:02 PM
amen mowses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1MajorTom
08-17-2004, 11:03 PM
So basically you are saying that Bobby thinks like a 10 year old kid? ;)

bobbygedd
08-17-2004, 11:03 PM
tell me then, if jodi gets stuck in traffic, or a detour, every day for the next 2 years, that would accumilate to quite a "loss", would she go out of business?

EastProLawn
08-17-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by 1MajorTom
So basically you are saying that Bobby thinks like a 10 year old kid? ;) Now that's funny....

Mowses
08-17-2004, 11:36 PM
First of all Bobby let me re-ireate that YES she still does make a loss in terms of dollar work completed over time as i stated above. She has gone from $50/hr down to $40/hr so it's a $10/hr loss.

Would she go out of business ?? It would depend on other factors but yes it could lead to closure of the business. Lets say out of $50/hr the costs are $40/hr and the NET was $10/hr. As she is now down to $40/hr there is no longer any NET income for the business. As you said, there was a detour the costs of maintenance + petrol for the car would increase due to the extra wear and tear so technically her costs would increase above $40/hr and she would now be losing money and hence be out of business.

This is not school maths. Here we are talking 'real world' and hence TIME becomes the major factor. Time is finite for everyone. We need time to sleep, time to relax, time for family and our time is limited with our life span and hence we put a price on labour. If time was unlimited then we would not factor in costs per hour because we have all the time in the world.

I hope this makes it clearer.

dvmcmrhp52
08-17-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Mowses
For the record i have a background in supply chain management and manufacturing so i know how to crunch numbers. I've worked for 3 multinational companies and still work full time for 1 of them managing 2 countries. So whilst i know jack about grass and plants i do know a lot about business and statistics.

It appears the arguments are based on 2 interpretations of the question. First is the way Bobby and most of you responded in that if there is $400/day to be made in 8hrs and for some reason there is a delay and it took 10hrs but still made the same money, then nothing is lost. Yes that is correct in terms of total dollar work completed. If i was a 10yr old kid washing cars then i would look at it this way. When you are running a business/company then you will be comparing efficiency and work completed. So for $400 dollars earned over 8hrs is $50/hr (100% efficiency). Compare that to the delayed $400 over 10hrs is $40/hr (80% efficiency). So you lost $10/hr because of the delays. If you think $40/hr and $50/hr are the same thing you're an idiot. This is basic stuff and there's no excuse for not knowing this if you are operating a business. Afterall there seems to be a lot of experts on here giving advice......

Labour is always broken down into man hours, even those on salary. You might only see a weekly number but in finance they will have broken it down into an hourly rate. It's especially important for manufacturing plants and services to know the hourly figure and budgeted hours otherwise how can you tell if you're making good money and measure your efficiency ?? If after 14 pages you still think $40/hr and $50/hr are then you really are an idiot. Hope i added some helpful comments to this thread.





Having been a manufacturing engineer in a distant life,I must say you've said it well and I must agree.

Time is money. Period.

Critical Care
08-17-2004, 11:54 PM
Hey KenH... Did you say that you're the owner and sole proprietor of your business, and you pay yourself wages (a paycheck I believe you said), and that these are losses to the income of the business???

You know, that's not legal buddy.

Mowses, what you're talking about is "Job Costing", but what I've been trying to point out is that in the financial accounting of a legally operated sole proprietorship there is no actual financial monetary loss when the owner has to spend an extra hour of his time in a detour. Would someone like to explain to me how they, as a sole proprietor, can write these extra detour hours (or potty breaks) off of their income taxes?

jajwrigh
08-18-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
i know ray, she's really going out on a limb here. if her mentality were correct, then she'd be LOSING MONEY by taking sunday off, and LOSING MONEY by not working till midnight. this falls along the same logic that the print company i used to work for used: in year 2000, they ESTIMATED sales for 2001 to be 5 million. when year 2001 was over, the actual sales came back at 4.5 million. so, they claimed they LOST a half a million dollars.

Someone please explain how anyone can "lose" something they never had!!!

Mowses
08-18-2004, 12:17 AM
Critical Care,

Your missing the point which is all about efficiency and it seems to many of you keep looking at the total completed dollar amount thinking that because there is no difference then it's the same. WRONG !! The point is if it takes you 10hrs to complete $400 worth of work when you were doing it in 8hrs then you lost money through being inefficient. As this situation seems to be confusing some of you i'll give you another one. Pretend you're working at a building site and getting paid $10/hr and you work an 8hr day so each days pay is $80. Management comes up and says you're working to slow so i'm now only going to pay you $8/hr. So now if you work the same 8hrs you get paid $64 and if you want to earn the same $80 you have to work an extra 2hrs. The same theory applies to the situation Jodi outlined except you work for yourself no difference. I cannot comment on the legal part as i'm not in your country however i gather this was a situation regarding efficiency, not actual reporting of financial data so i wouldn't worry about your question. We're just looking at the reason why Jodi is losing money.

PMLAWN
08-18-2004, 12:18 AM
Critical Care-- How is paying yourself not legal?

You must pay yourself for the time you work or a salary but either way that is an expence against profit. If you company has profit and you want to take some of it than that is a dividend. If you gave money to start up the company and you are taking some of that back than the company is repaying a shareholder loan.

Mowses said it very well.
To me it seems that there are people cutting grass as a hobby and people that are running a business that is about cutting grass.

A detour or stuck in traffic is a work stopage. do you lose money if you stop working? You say that 1 hour is not losing money. OK. If you got stuck in traffic for one week would you lose money??
Sick for 2 weeks?? Broken mower for 3 weeks?? I know that I would. So why would you not be losing for one hour but if it were 40 you would? To me any work stopage is losing money, be it me working solo or my truck with 2 men. But what do I know as I am only a CPA by contact. ( I'm married to one )

fastlane
08-18-2004, 12:22 AM
If a store donates an item that sales for $100 but cost them $50 how much is thier write off (loss)? Based on this thread about half of you would be wrong.

Critical Care
08-18-2004, 01:53 AM
PMLAWN... An owner of a corporation can be employed by the business and receive wages as an employee, but a sole proprietor can not. And the financial gains of C-Corporations are dividends, but wasn't this thread about guys working alone as sole proprietors?

Mowses, your last example classifies an employee of a company rather than a sole proprietor, but you're right that there are two different thought lines here. Efficiency is the engine that drives the opportunity to make more money. I've been trying to point out the bottom financial impact of delays on a sole proprietor.

How about an example of two sole proprietors working:
Joe gathered 800 apples today for his business after working 8 hours.
Tom gathered 800 apples today after working 6 hours.
Both Joe and Tom sold their apples for 60 cents per pound.

With these facts, you can see that Tom was more efficient (we all agree), and both got paid the same amount for their apples (we agree again). But do you think poor ol' Joe has encountered a loss because he couldn't pick his apples in 6 hours like Tom did? I don't, and the IRS won't.

Mowses
08-18-2004, 02:57 AM
First off, Fastlane to answer your Q you would write off the COST of the product not what you sell it for.

Critical Care - You're thinking along the same lines as me and yes we agree on the apples thing. In light of your last comment i did state in terms of Dollars from work completed there is in fact no change and they are the same. If that is how you need to report it to the IRS for tax purposes then so be it. If it was me preparing a report then i would factor in Joe's extra hours wage as a cost. Either that or fire his a$$ and employ Tom LOL. I do understand where you're coming from though and if the law says you can't do that then you can't. But having said that in my own business statistics and reporting i would still note that it took 10hrs to complete rather than 8hrs. That's just me though.

bobbygedd
08-18-2004, 06:18 AM
my question still has not been answered. in dollars and cents, how much has jodi "lost". mowses, you're talking a great game here but i still believe you are wrong. we do not sell time, we sell a service. our services are not billable by the hour, if they are, then answer my question: you price a 30 minute mow at $30. it's taking you longer today for whatever reason. you spend 30 min on the property, and although you are not finished, the 30 min has elapsed, so you pack up and leave. will you bill the client $30 for that visit?

bobbygedd
08-18-2004, 06:35 AM
i have another scenerio/question: jodi is a hard worker, but unfortunately mowing lawns on the west virginia border just doesn't pay that well. jodi's lawn care makes just enough to pay it's expenses, and provide jodi with a "draw" or "paycheck" of $945 a month. her personal expenses are electric-$100. water-$20. phone-$75-property tax-$300. car ins-$150. food-$100. cigarettes-$200. jodi is just scraping by. jodi get's stuck in this detour for month #1, and as you say is LOSING MONEY, so naturally there will not be enough to cover these costs, which one of these bills do you suggest jodi not pay?

PMLAWN
08-18-2004, 06:45 AM
Critical-- Tom has two hours to make other money which he will report to the IRS. Joe has lost that opportunity.

Jodi has lost that same opp. and the income that she could have gotten. Did someone reach into her pocket and remove money? NO but she did lose.

And if you bring in the IRS than you could really say that a loss was reported because the time in the truck was in a truck that was being depreciated but no income was showing against it at that time. Really stretching far with that one--.

PMLAWN
08-18-2004, 06:49 AM
Bobby, that is easy---Electric. That way her computer will not work and she will not have to read 15 pages of our debate and than will have time to recup. the loss.

kris
08-18-2004, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Critical Care
I don't, and the IRS won't.


Yes it is about JOB COSTING

I believe your splitting hairs here... NO you won't be able to claim it as a loss but....

This job normally takes 1 hour, the detour becomes permanent, it now takes 2 hours. To late to change your price.

What do you call it when you do your job costing and you find out the job is a LOSER? I call it a loss. Then, you jack up the price or dump the LOSER .... what would your business be if they all COSTED out as losers?


Bobby .... No you don't leave, you stay and finish the job. You can only hope that you cant beat the half hour time limit another day and it works out even by the end of the season.
Your prices are based on an hourly rate right? When you set your hourly rate you accounted for overhead labor, etc etc.?

KenH
08-18-2004, 06:57 AM
CC--- I INC'd back in 1993. The whole point of my tirades is that not thinking time is money is a dangerous thought....ESPECIALLY for the sole prop.


IMO,FWIW......Im out.

bobbygedd
08-18-2004, 07:40 AM
no kris they are not based on an hourly rate. not for arguments sake anyhow. i must admit it is somehow rewarding, phsycologically, to go out by myself, work 2 hrs, and take back with me $300. i can say to myself, "boy, i make great money, i earn $150 an hour." but that is a lie.it's like, we know that 200% profit is great. but if we start with one penny, and end up with 3, it = 200% profit, but did we make good money? you can't buy anything with 3 pennies. what came first, the "hourly rate", or the cost of the job? the price of the job came first. i know that a 6k property in my area can go for a max of $30. now that i know what my cap is, i must become as efficient as possible by #1- becomming familiar with the property and deciding which is the fastest way to cut it. and #2- get as many of the neighbors as possible to eliminate travel time, wear on the trucks, fuel, and make the best use of my time. now i can get more work done each hour, which allows me to make more money at the end of the day. this in no way means i have at my fingertips an unlimited amount of work that i can bill at $30 an hour, or whatever. when i work solo, if i get 10 lawns done in 8 hrs it =$300. if it takes me 10 hrs to do the same 10 lawns , cus maybe i'm tired that day , whatever, the same 10 lawns still = $300. if, in no uncertain terms, time= money, and a lawnboy's time can = $45-$60 an hour, i say this: work 16 hrs a day instead of 8 or 10, and retire at 45 yrs of age.

65hoss
08-18-2004, 08:05 AM
I think that most of the confusion comes from economics verses accounting. Both use the term profit, but both define the uses of it differently. In college when you heard the word profit you had to think quickly to remember what class you were in.

Economics thinks of opportunity cost and lost dollars.

Accounting is the cold hard facts.

To many people here are arguing based on this...2 different definitions. Some are saying by sitting in traffic I went from $40 per hour down to $30. Or...if I take money out of the business it goes against profit based on I need more. That is thinking of it from an economics standpoint.

Some are saying, business numbers only. I had revenue minus expenses and the profit is this hard cold number. That is accounting.

Both are correct!!! Neither are wrong. Its just you need to learn to think in BOTH terms.

Critical Care
08-18-2004, 11:03 AM
Uh huh, 65hoss, there have been two different thought lines; one can take things literally (accounting as you say), or figuratively (economically as you also said).

In Jodi’s original post she’s talking to a guy that has employees. He’s paying them by the hour, and so when they sit in traffic, drive slow, take potty breaks, it’s costing him. These would be the simple cold facts. You would probably call that accounting, rather than economics. But then Jodi tells this guy that “time is time, and is still costing us.” This sounds like the “economic” viewpoint. In other words, Jodi probably should have said, “Time is time, and I could be somewhere else making money.” Agree?

Gravely_Man
08-18-2004, 11:11 AM
Everyone's time matters and time is money. It really is that simple.

Gravely_Man

1MajorTom
08-18-2004, 11:48 AM
As with anything, there are usually two ways to look at things.

Since Bob is running a lemonade stand, he is only concerned about selling out of his lemonade, not how long it really takes him.
We however, are trying to run a successful business, not just sell lemonade, so we understand that time equals money.

Wayne Landscaping
08-18-2004, 12:09 PM
I see what he's saying. He means that if you work solo and your backed up, your just gonna have to do the jobs later or work overtime. If you have employees, your paying them to do nothing.

bobbygedd
08-18-2004, 01:52 PM
my last comment on this matter: i guess you can try to think of time = money if you have an UNLIMITED amount of work. a while back during a conversation i asked jodi, "how many lawns do you have? are you trying to increase your client base?" her reply, "we have 95 lawns. we want to increase, but we can never seem to get above the 95 mark. everytime we add 2 or 3, we then lose 2 or 3." with this, you see, there is NOT AN UNLIMITED AMOUNT OF CLIENTELLE at your fingertips, to the point where you can say no matter how many i do in 8 hrs, there are more that i can do. this is just not realistic. so, my final answer is that the 95 lawns yield only xxx dollars, wether they are done in 40 hours, or 140, they still only yield xxx dollars, and when they are finished, so is she. and furthermore, you all are rediculous, simply cus i asked the same question over, and over, and over, and you have all been avoiding it like the plague. HOW MUCH IS SHE LOSING??????

1MajorTom
08-18-2004, 03:09 PM
Your comment would only be partially correct Bob. Yes, talking lawns, we generally have 95 give or take a few. However, there is always more work on the table for us, if we choose to do it. Hedge trimming, mulching, cleanups, small retaining walls.... you see, we do turn down work. Why, because there are only so many hours in the day, and holdups whether they be traffic jams, detours, etc, cost us money.

Critical Care
08-18-2004, 08:40 PM
It sounds as if Jodi is losing money by not hiring another employee, and we also now hear the rest of the story that “there is always more work on the table for us…” I’d say that if you can’t get to these jobs because of detours, or because of running out of daylight hours, then you have lost out on making money. Your business, however, will not have its assets diminished by not working overtime to do these jobs.

By the way, I just heard on the news today that a poll was taken to see whether most people would rather be making more money at work, or have more time. They said that most wanted more time. Now ain’t that interesting!

You say tomayto, I say tomahto…

Mowses
08-18-2004, 09:27 PM
Sorry guys but you're still not thinking in a production manner like you should be. Each hour labour is on the floor working is a billable hour. Whether you like it or not that is a FACT. As i already stated, TIME is the main factor with anything as is it finite and labour is broken down into hours. You had a delay during working time and you have to work 10hrs instead of 8hrs. Break down your labour costs and you earned less per hour. Don't go on about the total dollar amount not changing, you just had to work LONGER to earn the same amount hence you suffered a loss. If i suddenly went from $50/hr down to $40/hr i'd be pi$$ed as hell. What some of you are suggesting is just plain stupid, sorry but 17 pages now and you still argue ?? I'll show you just how stupid your argument is. Jodi gets $400 in 8hrs works = $50/hr. She gets a 2hr delay but still gets $400 in the day for 10hrs work $40/hr. You argued with me that because the total does not change it's the same thing. Fine, i'll go one further. Next week Jodi makes the same $400 in a day but now works 20hrs because of delays = $20/hr. Now according to YOUR pricinciples because the completed dollar work has not changed she still hasn't lost money. This is exactly what you are trying to say. Are you really doltified enough to think she isn't losing out and that as long as the completed dollars doesn't change then nothing is lost ?? The original question was very simple and the answer should have been a short one but instead some of you have added bits and pieces to it which made things more complicated than what was asked. I am waiting for you now to come back and once again change your argument and add bits and pieces after what i said above. Stop adding bits!! Stop changing things and stick to what was asked !! I didn't see any mention of IRS, financial accounting or legality in the original question. It was simple. If i earn $400 in 8hr ($50/hr) but then i get delayed and make $400 in 10hr ($40/hr) did i lose money. The answer is yes because you should have been paid your normal wage during the extra 2hrs.

Look, even as a solo operator you are still an employee of the business right ?? Without you, nothing gets done. You are the labour force of your business. What makes you think your labour costs are figured out differently to the guy next door who has 1 full time employee ?? They're exactly the same. Labour is labour, an employee is an employee. Just to strengthen my case i have 2 other product planners beside me right now and i asked them the original question and they both said YES YOU LOSE MONEY.

Look, i've already said i have the creds to back myself up and i don't think many of you lawn boys know a lot about production facilities. If i was wrong then why would a global company have me in charge of looking after a few hundred million bucks of stock?? You'd probably argue with Bill Gates.

65hoss
08-18-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Mowses
Look, i've already said i have the creds to back myself up and i don't think many of you lawn boys know a lot about production facilities. If i was wrong then why would a global company have me in charge of looking after a few hundred million bucks of stock?? You'd probably argue with Bill Gates.

Ok, I know exactly were you are coming from. I completely understand. But...BEING A JACKASS at this point isn't going to cut it pencil pusher!!

Now you may know your environment, but let me explain something to you about work that is outside instead of inside with air conditioning. The weather is unpredictable. The equipment and times of year play a role. Many factors change constantly and daily. So what you know in a facility isn't the same thing as something that has tons of unpredictable factors.

At this point, you probably should go back to making your widgets and get out of a green industry forum. You started off good until you decided to put yourself above the rest of us. You may have "creds", but so do I and experience in the field we are talking about. You have "creds" in a field totally unrelated, so it makes you a book smart inexperienced person in this arena.

If you were as smart as you think you are, you would know that a facility and a service industry are different. That should have been one of the first things you learned in college.

So, were you wrong? No. But now with your attitude your advice and input is NOT WORTH LISTENING TO ANYMORE! You are just giving it to make yourself look important. Do something important...like work at the company that is paying you and stop bothering us.

Mowses
08-18-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
wether they are done in 40 hours, or 140, they still only yield xxx dollars, and when they are finished, so is she. and furthermore, you all are rediculous, simply cus i asked the same question over, and over, and over, and you have all been avoiding it like the plague. HOW MUCH IS SHE LOSING??????

Bobby Ray Cyrus, i actually missed this bit in your pathetic last post. Claming that working 40hrs and 140hrs for the same money is the same thing is the DUMBEST thing i have ever heard. Is your aim here to make an idiot of yourself ?? Are all of your 4828 posts as dumb as this one ?? I've already answered your question over and over and over but it's YOU who are avoiding it because it shows you know jack squat on this subject. Now i know why Gee gives you such a hard time, your an absolute shocker.

So one more time for the dummy. If Jodi gets $400 in completed work in 8hrs it's $50/hr. If next week she gets $400 in completed work but due to delays it takes her 10hrs it becomes $40/hr. The loss is $10/hr you moron, how hard is that to understand ?? Clearly post count doesn't equal IQ...... Perhaps i'll explain this to my 10yr old cousin and see if he can grasp the concept. Imagine that, a 10yr old kid understanding production concepts but a person who runs his own production business can't understand a thing.

bobbygedd
08-18-2004, 10:28 PM
moses is from australia. once i knew this guy, from columbia. back there he was an engineer, had degrees in this and that, but when he came here, those credentials couldn't get him a job scrubbing toilets at mcdonalds. is that the case with moses? is he only as good as his surroundings will allow?

bobbygedd
08-18-2004, 10:30 PM
jodi does not charge by the hour, she charges by the job

Mowses
08-18-2004, 10:32 PM
In response to Hoss


A Jackass. Ok fair enough i'll let that pass as i agree. Bobby got agressive in his posts but i don't see you calling him the same thing.
There's a reason for the attitude. I've seen so many posts here that are agressive in nature and it appears that many need a slap around the head to understand. Can you blame me? ? I provide the answer about 4 times so that anyone could understand it yet it's ignored and someone is claiming no one has answered the question. Yeah ok i'm the bad guy, sorry for helping and i didn't want to put down what i did but i thought it might help people want to understand what i was saying. Would i listen to a car washer about calculating production costs ?? No. Would i listen to a factory manager or someone in production ? Yes. I wasn't trying to sound like i was better, just showing that i knew about the situation, obviously more so than Bobby.

So you protect the dumb hear and punish those who are trying to help and share knowledge to help YOU improve how your business runs. Maybe i came to the wrong board ??

EastProLawn
08-18-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by 65hoss
[color=red] But...BEING A JACKASS at this point isn't going to cut it pencil pusher!!

That's just plain wrong, 65Hoss you need to grow up some.....

Critical Care
08-18-2004, 10:40 PM
That was quite a dissertation, Mowses. And, do allow us to congratulate you on your impressive achievements, but I think that most everyone on here would frown upon you calling them “lawn boys”.

My friend, you still have some facts wrong, but lets not beat a dead horse and perhaps we can just agree that we disagree.

Oh… and no, I wouldn’t argue with Bill Gates, because he would know better than to argue with me.

65hoss
08-18-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Mowses
In response to Hoss


A Jackass. Ok fair enough i'll let that pass as i agree. Bobby got agressive in his posts but i don't see you calling him the same thing.
There's a reason for the attitude. I've seen so many posts here that are agressive in nature and it appears that many need a slap around the head to understand. Can you blame me? ? I provide the answer about 4 times so that anyone could understand it yet it's ignored and someone is claiming no one has answered the question. Yeah ok i'm the bad guy, sorry for helping and i didn't want to put down what i did but i thought it might help people want to understand what i was saying. Would i listen to a car washer about calculating production costs ?? No. Would i listen to a factory manager or someone in production ? Yes. I wasn't trying to sound like i was better, just showing that i knew about the situation, obviously more so than Bobby.

So you protect the dumb hear and punish those who are trying to help and share knowledge to help YOU improve how your business runs. Maybe i came to the wrong board ??

Notice I said you were not wrong. You gave good info. You were very detailed. The problem came when you acted as though "we lawn boys" were not on the same level. That is what set me off. I apologize.

You can take some of your info and be used here. Problem is, a service industry that is determined so much by weather, people, equipment, times of year, etc is much different.

For example, what may take 10 hours in the spring, could be 6.5 hours in the summer and then 11 hours in the fall. So keeping a very rigid system of saying an extra 2 hours is costing money is right and wrong to some degree.

I'm not backing Bobby. Matter of fact I am not backing anyone. As I stated before, people are looking at it from different areas. One from accounting and another from economics. There is a lot of nuggets that can be used from your info and others. Its a matter of someone being smart enough to pick them out and apply them to a service and green industry business.

65hoss
08-18-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by EastProLawn
That's just plain wrong, 65Hoss you need to grow up some.....

Thanks for the educated and thought out input.

kris
08-18-2004, 10:46 PM
mowses ...more than welcome in my books

dvmcmrhp52
08-18-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by kris
mowses ...more than welcome in my books




Not in my book Kris.

A lawn boy?

Maybe I should jump on my ******* high white horse and throw some credentials around that would make this jackass look like a damn punkazz.
I have them to throw around but I have NO ONE to impress with acting like a high and mighty jerkoff.

I too thought he brought a good argument to the table,then he turned into a typical white shirted moron with nothing but arrogant bull dung.

So ends my input here on this great thread that Jodi started.

Mowses
08-18-2004, 11:23 PM
Look at it this way. I did get everyone talking and now you all know my name. Beats sitting back in the shadows with no one knowing you exist :)

First off please take no offence to 'lawn boys'. I'm Ozzie so i use a lot of slang. I'm a desk jockey or pencil pusher as you say and i take no offence to that at all. Hell call me boring or say i make ear wax or whatever and i don't care. It's just slang for my profession. On weekends i mow lawns, so i'm a lawn mower man and slang for that is lawn boy. I don't understand what all the huff is about. Do people in the US look down on lawn mower guys?? My girl told her friends at work i have my own mowing business and they were all impressed i'd taken the leap. So i'm guessing from your reactions you get quite a bit of flack from people ???

Critical Care - I like your last comment about Bill Gates, nice thinking :)

Hoss - Don't back down on me and you have no reason to apologise. I view some things differently at all. When you're in a room for along time you get used to the people around you. When you enter a new room with new people you pick up on every little detail. I've been reading for about 3 months now, just only posted today cos i couldn't sit back on this one :)

Kris - Nice to meet you mate. If i don't get banned i look forward to hanging around.

EastProLawn
08-18-2004, 11:29 PM
I am a Lawn Boy and damn proud of it. I'll take that name all the way to the bank:D :D Who freakin' cares what other people call us, really what is the difference between "Lawnboy" and LCO ? I'll tell you the difference...EGO, big fat ego's, after all is said and done we mow lawns for a living....:D Can't we all just get along ?

65hoss
08-18-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by EastProLawn
I am a Lawn Boy and damn proud of it. I'll take that name all the way to the bank:D :D Who freakin' cares what other people call us, really what is the difference between "Lawnboy" and LCO ? I'll tell you the difference...EGO, big fat ego's, after all is said and done we mow lawns for a living....:D Can't we all just get along ?

A lawn boy usually doesn't know anything about grass, just how to crank a mower and get his $25 bucks.

A LCO tries to run a business and not be the neighborhood kid. He supports more than his gas money and stereo systems.



...so what was the original topic 18 pages ago? :D :D

EastProLawn
08-18-2004, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by 65hoss
A lawn boy usually doesn't know anything about grass, just how to crank a mower and get his $25 bucks.

A LCO tries to run a business and not be the neighborhood kid. He supports more than his gas money and stereo systems.



Yeah, so like I said, nothing more than Ego's.....
Call me what you want, but I still am proud of who I am and what I do for a living...CEO, CFO, Pres., Owner, Manager, whatever title you choose it alone will not make you anymore successful, only you can determine that, you being the "lawn boy"

Randy Scott
08-18-2004, 11:45 PM
...so what was the original topic 18 pages ago? :D :D

I think it had something to do about Chevy versus Ford if I remember. I like our Fords, been strong runners and quite the work horses. Good day now.

Mowses
08-19-2004, 01:07 AM
ell i apologise for sounding agressive in the post and i'll remember that lawn boy = insult, sorry i honestly didn't realise that.

DVM if you want to share your past education or work then feel free. I hope these things have given you a solid base to build your business on as it sounds like you have a nice stepping stone which is great. I don't take any offence to what you said, i was aggressive yes, probably to agressive but so were other posters. Gloating? No. Before i fronted up i said what i did so people would know i have experience on this subject. I don't see that as gloating, i see that as proving i know what i'm on about. The second comment i made about arguing with gates was thrown in there for spice. I was being ignored so what better way to get people's attention.....and it did........

Anyhoo i'll try not to be so aggressive in the future and play nicer with an attitude adjustment.

Yo EastPro you're exactly right. What does it matter what you do for a living. Fact is here in Oz a lawn boy would pull more dough than certain professionals would each year. To me it doesn't matter what you do, just get those dollars.

PMLAWN
08-19-2004, 02:19 AM
Mowses- I agree with your views on the time issue and your start was a good one. I believe your statement about "lawn boys" and the condenscending attitude may have lowered your credibility. We all come from different backgrounds but for the most part we are all here to get a little help and maybe a little relief from the daily grind. To bash and belittle a member for their views with only 10 posts under your belt will not go over well. Sure 19 pages of this may be more of a waste of time than sitting in traffic and the question comes up as to if we are losing money by being involved but I come back to read the different views and to be entertained a little. I guess my point is that you state that others were aggressive with their remarks but they have been around a while and it comes from knowing who they are talking to and knowing who it is coming from.

"For the record i have a background in supply chain management and manufacturing so i know how to crunch numbers. I've worked for 3 multinational companies and still work full time for 1 of them managing 2 countries. So whilst i know jack about grass and plants i do know a lot about business and statistics."

Your remarks are hard to take from "A box counter in a wearhouse guy" . Get to know us first and work in our field for a while and than at least we can accept your remarks as coming from someone that knows of what they talk about.
I'm not trying to get you mad at me and not trying to pick a fight, Just trying to be sure you see our point of view and for us all to be calm. As you said -- Play Nice --. Welcome to Lawnsite.

Oldtimer
08-19-2004, 02:46 AM
Cut Mowses some slack. He mows for Australian Dollars and would be called a scrub in the USA.


Oldtimer

bobbygedd
08-19-2004, 07:55 AM
mowses, i accept your apology

PMLAWN
08-19-2004, 08:04 AM
Hay Bobby, Just saw the "Its 5 o'clock somewhere" video and it got me thinking-- If you work for 8 hours and on one day you have to take the detour and now instead of 5 you get home at 6, that would mean that Maragaritaville is open an hour later. Now I think were losing something!

bobbygedd
08-19-2004, 02:26 PM
mowzez, you mention factory manager, and that is where you keep the blinders on and are unable to see outside this hourly wage thing. a factory manager, or any other manager that relies on employees must think in terms of hourly. thier biggest expense is employees, and employees get paid by the hour. you'll never convince me that jodi lost money by taking a detour.

1MajorTom
08-19-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
my last comment on this matter:



Two pages ago you said that... We couldn't be so lucky. ;)

Remsen1
08-19-2004, 03:18 PM
Jodi lost money cause happy hour ended at 7 and she didn't get done mowing until 7:05. Each drink after 7:00 costed $1 more LOL.

odin
08-19-2004, 05:09 PM
OOOOOOOOOOO whennnnn willll theeee pissinggggg innnn thissss pissinggggg matchhhhh quittttt beingggg repeateddddd likeeeee theeeee lasttttt letterrrrr innnnnn eachhhhh worddddd offffff thisssssss sentenceeeeeee lolllllllll :D

bobbygedd
08-19-2004, 05:27 PM
lets look at a different business. my wife sells real estate. she gets paid "per sale." it is quite common for her to make an appointment with a potential buyer, drive to the site, and have the buyer not show up. now i know she burned fuel that cost money, but did she lose money other than the fuel?

bobbygedd
08-19-2004, 06:35 PM
how cum the great gee vee hasn't replied to this thread?

Mowses
08-19-2004, 06:44 PM
Well regarding you saying Jodi doesn't charge per hour but by piece. Well isn't that 'piece' price judged on how long she thinks it will take to complete?? I thought that was the whole purpose of bidding. When you guys submit a tender isn't the first thing that goes through your mind 'how long will it take me' ?? If you don't look at the 'time to complete' a job and you are basing on a piece price then how do you go about calculating it ?? This is the lawn industry we're talking about here.

The real estate example is far more complex than the simple one Jodi asked. I still believe everything is broken down into hours. My salary is and i have a good friend in real estate and his is to. Like you said i'm not going to convince you and i have not seen you explain thouroughly to convince me your view is the right one. I do understand totally what you are saying don't get me wrong. Total work completed is not changed so how can you lose money? It's when you look at how you got to the work completed you see where you made the loss which is your hourly rate was decreased.

Anyway we'll lay this one to rest and people can just flick through as all the info is there to decide.

Critical Care
08-19-2004, 06:54 PM
This thread is long, but knowing about how, why, or if your company is losing money does seem rather important. Perhaps we should start a new thread about this general subject if people feel this one is too long and gets away from what Jodi first said.

But Bobby, I’ll try to answer you from both points of views… Most people see that your wife is losing money because “time is money.” Sounds simple. She spent an extra hour, or whatever, and didn’t get paid. When you figure what sales she has made in a given amount of time divided by how many hours she spent getting to that point, then you can see roughly what she’s making per hour. More time running around not making sales will reflect a lower dollar figure per hour. Okay guys, am I getting your point of view correct???

I however totally agree with Bobby because his wife hasn’t experienced a cash loss, or expense. The profit or loss of her company, being a realtor, will not change because of time but rather because of what money goes in, and what money goes out. This doesn’t mean that most of you are wrong, because knowing what you’re making per hour in your business is important.

Critical Care
08-19-2004, 07:03 PM
There has been talk suggesting that even when you work alone you’re an employee and get paid like one, but let me quote what the definition of an employee is.

“If an individual is subject to the will and control of the person for whom the services are performed, both as to what is to be done and the manner in which it is to be accomplished, that individual is an employee.”

An employer is described as:

“To be an employer, you must have individuals who perform services as employees.”

If you’re working solo all by yourself, and have not incorporated, then you’re neither an employer nor an employee. And, at least here in Oregon, if you look up the Oregon Administrative Rules on Employer Status (808-003-0090) it states:

“Landscape businesses shall be licensed as either nonexempt (employer with employees) or exempt (no employees) as provided in ORS 671.525.”

Since I work solo, I am licensed as Exempt (No Employees).

Mowses
08-19-2004, 07:24 PM
So now this has turned into a partially a legal question.... the bits just keep getting added. It does make it more intersting though.

If you are exempt then you are not classed as an employee and i believe you will use this basis on that you therefore do not draw an hourly wage correct?
Because of that in times of delays you will therefore not lose money as long as the total work completed is equal and hourly wage payments are irrelevant. Soooo if you are incorporated like an earlier poster said he was, you draw an hourly wage and in times of delays you STILL draw that wage and the business does in fact lose money.

So what you are really trying to say is that during time delays, incorporated solo operators WILL lose money but exempt business will not. That's a lot of information to look into that the original question did not provide..... It seems i'm the only one that hasn't added in bits to strengthen my argument.

It still remains $40/hr is less than $50/hr. If you can convince me those numbers are equal then fine with me.

odin
08-19-2004, 07:36 PM
I have a couple sugestions.


1 AS stated start a new thread

2 .go to the pissery .....pis it all out of your systems and agree to disagree.........your po o camode's will thank you for all the pissing they been missing from you all pissing on this thread .

bobbygedd
08-19-2004, 07:49 PM
but, fact is fact. expenses are NOT charged hourly. my insurence is NOT charged hourly, my permits are NOT charged hourly. nothing i use or am required to use, to run my solo business, is charged hourly. i DON'T BILL hourly, i DON'T charge for time. i provide a service. it's in MY BEST INTEREST to keep the time down as low as possible, for my own reasons. mine is cus i like my free time...fishin, whatever. others use this extra time to make more money.

Critical Care
08-19-2004, 08:04 PM
That's right Mowses, I do not draw wages. If I could draw wages, then I'd have to pay myself workmans comprehension insurance and everything else associated to having employees. Perhaps I immediately assumed that most solo ops here on Lawnsite are not operating solo as an employee of their own corporation but rather are simple sole proprietors like myself.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean by adding bits, but the legal thing I don't think is a question unless if you question whether guys are doing their businesses legally or not.

And... you're absolutely right. $40 per hour is less than $50, and the numbers are not the same. Also, I would agree with you 100% if I were an employee of my company collecting an hourly wage.

bobbygedd
08-19-2004, 08:07 PM
critical care is right. now let's move on

Mowses
08-19-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
i DON'T BILL hourly, i DON'T charge for time. i provide a service. it's in MY BEST INTEREST to keep the time down as low as possible.

Well i did ask if someone mowing lawns does not use the amount of time it takes to do the job as a basis on what to charge, what do you use?? When i look at a lawn i think 'i can do it in 30mins' and i already have a number in my head that will cover that. I'm not sure how you could judge a lawn without calculating the amount of time to complete it.

I've seen many threads where everyone talks about figuring out what you want to earn each hour. You are the only person i've seen who says you don't use that calculation at all to do a job. Can you please fill me in on that as it would be something i'd like to know.

I think the above is another thread i will start as it's getting away from the original question.

Critical Care so just to sum up on what yourself and Bobby are agreeing on, if you are a solo operator and 'exempt' then in fact your time is actually worth less. I've shown that through my examples unless my examples are wrong ??

Critical Care
08-19-2004, 10:37 PM
Mowses, if you're not already familiar with job costing software, you may at least be interested in it... since it's more aligned with what you've been saying all along. Here's a link to one company's software.

http://www.qqesttime.com/products/job-tracking.php

Don't know if Gopher Software has this feature...

EastProLawn
08-19-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by bobbygedd
now let's move on The best reply I've seen in awhile.............

Mowses
08-20-2004, 12:04 AM
Cheers Critical i'll take a look.

AssuredServicesCo
01-13-2005, 09:51 PM
im sure most of us waste this much time in a day doing what we want rather than what we ought anyway. im sure you've got bigger fish to fry. rock on.

stumper1620
01-13-2005, 10:15 PM
young people hire me to maintain their lawn because their personal time is worth more to them than what it cost to pay me to take care of their yards, or they are lazy.
my question is this what is your personal time worth? the longer you are on your route, the less personal time you have. personally, i value my time to the extent that if i were going to do a project and the cost of someone doing the work cost less than double what i earn per hour that is worth paying.
personnal time is worth 2 to 3 times what you normally earn per hr. if you are stuck in a traffic jam it is costing more than money. :D
the more demanding work becomes the more the value of time!

YardPro
01-13-2005, 10:24 PM
it's not COSTING YOU ANYTHING! if this frame of mind were correct, then taking a lunch break would be COSTING you money. taking a day off would be COSTING you money. quitting at 5 instead of 6 would be COSTING you money. now if they vote in my favor, remember what you promised me....

this is one of the many examples of your inconsistant statements.
if you really believe this bobblehead, then WHY are ypu always pissing and moaning about having to spend extra time with clients. why is the extra trip to mrs jones's house a big deal. if you follow the mindset of your above post, is doesn't cost you anything to do all these things you piss and moan about.

bobbygedd
01-13-2005, 10:29 PM
this is one of the many examples of your inconsistant statements.
if you really believe this bobblehead, then WHY are ypu always pissing and moaning about having to spend extra time with clients. why is the extra trip to mrs jones's house a big deal. if you follow the mindset of your above post, is doesn't cost you anything to do all these things you piss and moan about.
"costing you", as in money fool! this is what the thread was about, is she losing money from the delays? the answer is 1000 times NO. now, as for me, making an extra trip, it's "costing me my time", which is valuable to me, but not on a monetary basis. now quit calling me names, is this what they taught you in medical school?

1MajorTom
01-13-2005, 10:30 PM
this is one of the many examples of your inconsistant statements.
if you really believe this bobblehead, then WHY are ypu always pissing and moaning about having to spend extra time with clients. why is the extra trip to mrs jones's house a big deal. if you follow the mindset of your above post, is doesn't cost you anything to do all these things you piss and moan about.

He is always full of inconsistant statements, but when he takes a stand in a thread, he'll fight till the end, even when he's wrong.

YardPro
01-13-2005, 10:40 PM
LOL
yea, he sure goes down with the ship a lot.

makes for good entertainment though, kind of like watching a video of guy that keeps walking into the glass door. you keep thinkin, he'll figure it out this time, then BAM..........

bobbygedd
01-13-2005, 10:43 PM
ok major tom, just how much did the detour cost you, in dollars and cents, and is there an area on your tax form to deduct it? or, was it simply only "money in your mind" that was lost?

tiedeman
01-13-2005, 10:45 PM
I can't believe this thread came alive again

Soupy
01-13-2005, 10:52 PM
bingo....

So then, am I to understand driving around doesn't mean anything?
Why do we all want to have a tight knit route if it isn't costing us anything to drive around??? I mean, if we have 20 lawns, who cares if they are spread out every five miles, big deal, it doesn't cost anything to drive around, right? Whether they are all in a row or all spread out everywhere, doesn't matter because at the end of the week we will have been able to complete all the jobs, so the extra driving didn't cost anything.. I'll have to remember that next time someone calls 30 miles away asking for an estimate.
With us there is always work on the table, and losing 40 minutes is in someway costing us, either the equipment doesn't get maintained at the end of the night, the grass doesn't get dumped, a lawn doesn't get cut, somehow someway that extra 40 minutes cost us.

I didn't read any further because I couldn't handle it anymore. You are not losing money but you are making less per hour. We keep a tight route so we can make more per hour. You can cut more lawns per week. But you mange this time at the beginning of your route. If it takes you a extra 30 minutes that day then you just lost 30 minutes (which lowered you profit per hour). You did not lose any money. You tell me if you did not make that detour, would you would have a extra $30 (or whatever you charge per hour) in your pocket at the end of that day?

Now if you had to cut your day short and could not finish your route then you have lost money for that day, but you will most likely make it up tomorrow and as long as you are back on schedule the following week then you did not lose any money.

In all honesty Jodi, did you pass on work because of this loss time? Or did you just miss the Simpson's that night :)

YardPro
01-13-2005, 10:59 PM
here's another bobby inconsistancy

the added time for the day is less time that Jodi can spend with the family.. it is the quality of life issue that bobby's arguing about in the other thread.

and bobby... how much did having to skip mrs. jones yard becuase there was too much dew, and return later that day cost you You sure wnt to add a sur charge... WHY??? it didn't cost you anything????

as someone else pointed out this thread really illuminates the people that understand how business works. i'll bet that all the people that think it is not costing jodi money do not have large businesses, or have not been in business for a long time. It's this sort of mentality that will hamper your transition into a successful enterprise.

1MajorTom
01-13-2005, 10:59 PM
I didn't read any further because I couldn't handle it anymore.

Maybe you should.

bobbygedd
01-13-2005, 11:04 PM
so yard bird, if the detour continues for more than a year, jodi goes out of business? how long will the detour, and this so called "loss of income" have to continue before jodi loses so much money that she has to give up her business? tell me, in hours, weeks, months, quit evading the question. how much monetary loss is she suffering, and how long before she has to pack it in?

Soupy
01-13-2005, 11:06 PM
Ok, I read to page 6 (I have a long ways to go) and have decided that you lost money on that job. I will tell you why. If a customer owes me money and I have to spend a extra 30 minutes to collect then I lost money on that customer. Lets say that customer owes me $60 for 1 hours work, but it takes me 30 minutes to collect it. I just reduced my pay from $60/hr to $45/hr. Technically I still didn't lose money out of my pocket, but I lost money per hour.

Sorry about my last post, I was being closed minded. The rum and cokes are starting to effect my thinking skills :dizzy:

Soupy
01-13-2005, 11:09 PM
Maybe you should.

I will do 10 push ups for my punishment. I was snoozing at the beginning of class today, sorry :sleeping:

1MajorTom
01-13-2005, 11:12 PM
I will do 10 push ups for my punishment. I was snoozing at the beginning of class today, sorry :sleeping:
hey, I was thinking... with those rum and cokes in ya, do you really think you'll be able to do 10?? :p

YardPro
01-13-2005, 11:13 PM
so yard bird, if the detour continues for more than a year, jodi goes out of business? how long will the detour, and this so called "loss of income" have to continue before jodi loses so much money that she has to give up her business? tell me, in hours, weeks, months, quit evading the question. how much monetary loss is she suffering, and how long before she has to pack it in?


you're still avoidiing the comparison to your protests about having to reschedule properties. You want to add a surcharge, for YOUR extra time..also you always tell people to go up on the amount collected if they have to come back to get the money, for the extra trip. Why, it didn't cost them anything if we follow your thinking.

also, your mindset really shows your poor understanding of business.
call the community college, take some business classes , then you'll see that there is a tangeable dollar figure to any time an owner spends on his business.

bobbygedd
01-13-2005, 11:19 PM
that's it. you STILL CAN'T TELL ME how much the lady lost. you need to get a calculator, punch in some numbers, then stick it up your behind, cus SHE DIDN'T LOSE ANYTHING! now, i had a boss years back. big fat ed. nice guy, he used to tell me, "bobby, bobby, bobby, don't argue with people who are dumb, they will only agrivate you." i'm sure somehow he knew, 20 yrs ago, i'd meet you. i am done with this mental cruelty. you are back on ignore. goodbye mr. gump

Soupy
01-13-2005, 11:21 PM
I didn't read any further because I couldn't handle it anymore. You are not losing money but you are making less per hour. We keep a tight route so we can make more per hour. You can cut more lawns per week. But you mange this time at the beginning of your route. If it takes you a extra 30 minutes that day then you just lost 30 minutes (which lowered you profit per hour). You did not lose any money. You tell me if you did not make that detour, would you would have a extra $30 (or whatever you charge per hour) in your pocket at the end of that day?

Now if you had to cut your day short and could not finish your route then you have lost money for that day, but you will most likely make it up tomorrow and as long as you are back on schedule the following week then you did not lose any money.

In all honesty Jodi, did you pass on work because of this loss time? Or did you just miss the Simpson's that night :)

See quote in red. I knew the answer and even typed it out, but then I disagreed with myself. I need help, I think it is time I step away from the computer. I guess I will strap myself to the couch and try to watch a good movie (I Robot) which has been sitting on my shelf. If you see me on here between 11pm and 12am, make me do another 10 push ups and call the lawnsite rehab for help. I need work, I am spending way to much time here.

Soupy
01-13-2005, 11:26 PM
hey, I was thinking... with those rum and cokes in ya, do you really think you'll be able to do 10?? :p

I just realized that I can't do the push ups because that would cut into my lawnsite time and my movie time. Which would make me lose money somehow. I'm not sure how, but I know it is.

Actually since I tell my wife that this is business research. I guess I am losing money visiting lawnsite. Every unpaid minute on lawnsite (because it is business related) is bringing my gross hourly pay way down. Shoot, I worked overtime today :)

YardPro
01-13-2005, 11:32 PM
keep digging the hole bobby.
i can tell as the personal insults escalate, it's only becuase you are being pressed on a question that you know if you answer you'll have to admit you're wrong.

whenever you lack a credible argument you resort to the personal insults. they don't bother me a bit. not from you anyhow. I know where your place is on the food chain.

here's an actual hard # figure ( although much lower than jodi's time is worth). Jodi's truck time alone increased the daily costs by $10.00/day. Surely you know that there is an hourly cost associated with using a vehicle.

the cost is as stated earlier an indirect cost. Jodi's time is worth X amount. That amount is whatever jodi makes per year by the #of hours jodi works.

By increasing the amount of time that needs to be spent earning that same wage, you are lowering jodi's hourly earnings. to make the same amount of money in the same amount of time jodi would then have to charge more per hour for services to clients to earn the same wages for the same hours.

It is EXACTLY the same as when you complain that you had to move toy's etc from a yard, increasing the amount of time you have to spend on that yard to earn the same wage.

you piss and moan all the time about the exact same situation, but you are trying to dance around it in this thread becuase you don'y like jodi and you made a statement based on that dislike, and are not going down with the ship trying to defend it.


night night bobby,
hope the coast guard is on it's way, cuase your ship is going down fast.

see ya tommorow

1MajorTom
01-14-2005, 10:30 AM
you piss and moan all the time about the exact same situation, but you are trying to dance around it in this thread becuase you don'y like jodi and you made a statement based on that dislike, and are not going down with the ship trying to defend it.


night night bobby,
hope the coast guard is on it's way, cuase your ship is going down fast.

see ya tommorow


Yes, yes, yes, thank you Mr. Yard Pro. He does this all the time to people he doesn't like, he will take the opposite stance and then put a negative spin on it. You are a smart guy Yard for figuring this out. :p

bobbygedd
01-14-2005, 10:36 AM
"i don't like jodi?" ARE YOU CRAZY???? i want her to have my next child. but the fact remains, you can't even give me any numbers. u keep saying"lost, lost, lost". but nobody can tell me how much she has lost...not even her :dizzy:

Soupy
01-14-2005, 10:46 AM
Bobby she didn't lose money, she lost profit.... I was thinking the same as you when I read through the first page. But then it hit me that she was talking about loss profit and not money.

bobbygedd
01-14-2005, 10:51 AM
i still can't get anyone to tell me, in dollars and cents, how much she lost. if u can't give me a figure, it doesn't exsist. it's like me saying, "the #5 horse won the 2nd race at aqueduct, i wasn't there, so i LOST money." :dizzy:

rodfather
01-14-2005, 11:37 AM
i still can't get anyone to tell me, in dollars and cents, how much she lost. if u can't give me a figure, it doesn't exsist. it's like me saying, "the #5 horse won the 2nd race at aqueduct, i wasn't there, so i LOST money." :dizzy:

Opportunity was lost...nothing more.

bobbygedd
01-14-2005, 11:42 AM
thank you rodfather.

Soupy
01-14-2005, 02:07 PM
i still can't get anyone to tell me, in dollars and cents, how much she lost. if u can't give me a figure, it doesn't exsist. it's like me saying, "the #5 horse won the 2nd race at aqueduct, i wasn't there, so i LOST money." :dizzy:

Only Jodi can tell you the $ lost because only she knows her cost. But I guarantee you it cost her $0.01 or higher to take that detour. I realize that for argument sake no one was counting her transportation cost (even though that alone would make her right). Other then transportation cost Only Jodi can tell you if she could not perform any job related task do to her restriction of time. Such as paper work etc. when she got back. I think it is safe to assume she didn't lose any billable time do to her delay. 30 minutes isn't enough time to complete a billable task unless the task was at the last property of the day and she had to stop because of time restrictions (such as it being to dark or city ordinance etc.).

The question was a loaded question once you took the obvious added transportation cost away for the equation. With that thinking and considering she honestly would not have spent time on any other job related task (only she knows this answer) then no she did not lose money. She lost time and since that time was lost on the clock, she lost profit per hour and nothing else.

I was thinking the same way as you and in a way you are both right (depends on the variables of the question). She didn't lose any money (other then transportation cost) if in fact she finished her daily schedule.

Soupy
01-14-2005, 02:24 PM
Another thing you could ask yourself is this. Is driving 30 minutes to a potential customers house and giving them an estimate free? assuming you don't charge for estimates did it cost you anything?

We all agree (I hope) that we decide if our business is profitable by the profit per hour at the end of the year. If your un-billable time makes your profit per hour lower then a comparable job offer then you are losing money by delays. assuming you would have taken the other job.

There are way to many variables in her question. Only she can decide if she lost money (other then transportation cost). We can all agree she made less money per hour and that is not debatable.

Flex-Deck
01-14-2005, 07:24 PM
Actually - I am solo, and I feel like it is more important for me to be able to get where I am going as efficiently as possible more that if I had crews.

If I had two crews and only one was detoured, it would only make 1/2 the operation less efficient - can only charge when mowing. If I am solo and get detoured, the whole operation suffers.

YardPro
01-15-2005, 05:01 PM
i still can't get anyone to tell me, in dollars and cents, how much she lost. if u can't give me a figure, it doesn't exsist. it's like me saying, "the #5 horse won the 2nd race at aqueduct, i wasn't there, so i LOST money." :dizzy:


well bobby. you still haven't told us why, if you believe the extra time cuased by the detour doesn't cost more money, then why do you always justify wanting to charge people MORE money if you have to make an extra trip to pick up a check, or leave then return later to pick up a check?? Why do you feel you have to charge more if you have to move toys or furniture in a yard while mowing???? it did not COST you any more to perform the service?????


your previous posts all conflict with your stance in this post.

Soupy
01-15-2005, 05:11 PM
If the customer causes you extra work then they must pay. The thread was about non billable time.

YardPro
01-15-2005, 06:50 PM
so you're saying time IS money??
following bobby's logic you did not LOOSE any money.. no money was subtracted from your account. how much extra did it cost you to do the job???? nothing..then why charge more?? Same logic.. all your time has a value...

here's one of bobby's examples.

he wanted to charge a surcharge becuase he pulled up to a yard first thing in the morning and the dew was too heavy to mow. he wanted to add a "return trip" surcharge. the customer did not cuase this extra time to be spent. why then should he charge more???

here's yet another one.

bobby quoted a leaf cleanup price.

it rained between the quote and the start of the job. bobby wanted to charge more. why??
the CUSTOMER did not cuase the change.
Following bobby's logic it would NOT ACTUALLY COST you more to do the job. It would only take more time, and your time has no inherent value, so why should you charge more????

now.. if you think he should charge more, then you are saying that his time DOES have value (i also believe it does), and then there is a definate cost to the detour.

sildoc
01-15-2005, 08:44 PM
I believe we're talking about solo operators, most of whom have a certain amount of regular mowing customers each week. So if you are always able to get your route done each week, the wasted drive time only cost you in gas money. If you can't fill the wasted time with paying work then it really makes no difference.

The He!! it makes no difference!!!!. That is time I can be fishing, with the family, relaxing, preparing for the next day and such. This may not me monitary value but it is worth something, Usually more than money itself!

Critical Care
01-15-2005, 09:38 PM
Here we go again…

First year accounting tells you Profit = Income minus Expenses. Time is not an expense. If you had employees, their wages are an expense, and if you pay them by the hour then the more time they take lolly gagging around does mean a greater expense. But… as a solo operator, you don’t have any employees, and you don’t have any wages. You income is from all the money you get from your jobs; your expenses from all the money you spend; your profit then is the difference.

Until you can put a numeric value on time, it will remain as not an expense. If any of you are using accounting software for your businesses, you’ll probably notice that the software includes a lot of expenses, such as auto expense, telephone, equipment, advertising… but you’ll never find time listed in there as an expense.

Okay guys, I’m curious… Lets say you have a large mow account that’s 2 acres in size, and you charge the client $80 to cut the grass. You have a 48” deck on your mower, but of course you know that if you had the 52” deck you could get the job done faster. Are you losing money because you don’t have a 52” deck? Or better yet, a 72” deck?

YardPro
01-16-2005, 07:34 AM
Until you can put a numeric value on time, it will remain as not an expense. If any of you are using accounting software for your businesses, you’ll probably notice that the software includes a lot of expenses, such as auto expense, telephone, equipment, advertising… but you’ll never find time listed in there as an expense.



but you do have a numeric value on your time.
it's your hourly operating costs.
when you prepare a bid, you have a cost per hour you work with.
i guess you'll get to that part in the second year accounting :)

YardPro
01-16-2005, 07:37 AM
where's bobby's response???
is he not going to answer here, and only spew out personal attacks in ANOTHER thread??????

Critical Care
01-16-2005, 09:49 PM
Yard Pro, please tell us, at the end of the day when you count up all of your money, what difference is it going to make whether you did your route in 8 hours or 7.5 hours? You end up with the same amount of money, but one day you had do an estimate and so it took you longer. Sure, you can take the money you made and divide it by the hours you worked and then see that you made less per hour on the longer day, but the bottom line is that you still end up with the same cold cash at the end of the day.

rclay11541
01-16-2005, 10:19 PM
If im working by myself one day and i have to take a detour i used to think since i wasn't paying anybody then it didn't cost me anything same as cutting my cousins yard for nothin (he does my taxes).

But you must consider what else could you be doing. If you could be cutting another lawn or administrative work then it is costing you something. If theres work on your clipboard to do and your not doing it your wasting time.

Where talking about an economics principle called "opportunity cost".