Walkbehind Mowers - The standard

[Eng Mwr Guy]

Hello all

I am an engineer in the lawn & garden industry that is assigned to the walkbehind mowers.

My dilemma:
I was hired to create a "new/revised" 2002 walk behind mower that will serve the commercial mower with excellence.

My question:
What do you look for in a commerc. mower?
Looking beyond brand loyalty what features are required for you to purchase a new mower?
Who is the "best" in your opinion? More importantly...why?

Any advice would be appreciated. I want to engineer and produce the best equipment I possibly can.

Thank You

Barry

[ronslawncare]

i know a lot of guys said on this forum complain about problems with the pistol grips hurting there wrist maybe you can design something like the toro with the t-bar .

[65hoss]

high blade tip speed

better controls

great mulching ability

In my opinion, spend most of you engineering time working on spindles and bearings. Figure out a way to make them last longer. Some people get many hours out of theirs (ericelm) but other than the choppers, I don't know of many that will make it all that long.

Exmark is best so far. The first three are a given, but the spindles, well we will have to wait and see. Not enough hours yet to tell.

[Richard Martin]

Since I live in the "dew" belt (Mid Atlantic) what I'd like is an Exmark that will cut wet grass all day long without cakeing grass on the deck and throwing wet clumps of grass. The reason I choose Exmark is except for the wet grass problem the machine is virtually perfect. Also, if you are looking at beltdrives try the Dana tranny instead of the Peerless.

[luckylawnboy]

On a walk behind, Easy access to belts, Larger tanks, Parking brakes standard, High tip speed, I have yet to see a walk behind have the cut of my chopper. Velke standard, and a place that they fold up nicley when not is use. and keep them compact for easy transport. top access grease zert. manual blade engagment save cost, keep reliable, large dive tire so they do not leave tracks, and solid front tires to keep from going flat. easy height adjustment. high blade tip speed, and a bagger that rest atop the deck, and is easy to remove, doesnot stick out far, wont clog, does not blow back in your face, and easy to swith back and forth between discharge and bagging. Oh yea I forgot to mention Higher blade tip speed. lol

Good luck

[Rufur]

a belt drive that will actually back up and solid handle locks that is ones that are easy to put in neutral and dont pop out my bobcat has 2 rollers that locks the handle in neutral and park and they have slipped out

[rdh]

put easy stripers on them and operator controlled discharge
chutes.
wouldnt a sping loaded eeasy striper be better to push grass
down ?

[Edited by rdh on 01-08-2001 at 04:07 PM]

[bob]

Barry, What mower company do you work for? Also don't put a Kohler engine on it.

[Fantasy Lawns]

make changing the oil not so messy (flexiable rubber hose with a plug which can be flexed away and into a drain area)
also don't install the muffler on the side keep it up front ....and make the deck adjustable with pins not a thread like Snapper does ....Don't get me wrong I have a hydro snapper 36 .....has great control .....smooth and easy to maintain ....she mulches killer but I wish a kit was offered which I could quickly switch to side discharge like on a DC

[mdb landscaping]

standard parking brake
non-chaffing hand grips
non-grass clumping when wet out

[Mark]

I also don't like the pistol grip, On my 52 snapper loop steering i can cut 10 inches closer to sticker bushes by putting my hands in the middel and steering with ease. I sure hope they continue to stay with the loop steer, its a life saver on my hands. As the mulch kit goes i made mine, but i sure do like the way the Dixies have there shutes. And i wish my scags, would back up fast as the snappers, at least 4mph, I also wish that tank was 6 gallon.

[Runner]

Most definitely, work on the ergonomics. I think Exmark might have hit it with their new grip system with the angles AND keeping the hands inward to prevent injury. A lift and block system like the one on the new Toro ZTR would be nice. Also, make sure the handles are high enough for everyone. Very few machines have a handle height to suit most people. So often, I will see these guys, especially the taller ones having to literally crouch down to operate the machine. Let alone if their on a stand up sulky that raises the operator 3-4 more inches. Higher handles suit everybody, including short people. When you go with hydro, make sure you make the drive adjustments like Exmark's - with the knob controllers for easy adjustment and quick compensation on hillsides.

[rixtag]

I would look for things such as; better mulching of wet grass, a grass catcher that does not make your machine wider and/or less powerful. I would like to see a better setup on the controls also. Maybe the exhaust would point down away from the center of the mower soaz I don't smell later. Noise is definitely an issue, without sacrificing power. I like the new TORO jack setup..very good idea. That's all oh and world peace! Thanks for asking the people that use the machines in the real world as opposed to the people that sell only. If anyone is going to know what works we will. Nuff said

Rick

[osc]

1. The best spindles money can buy. Tapered roller bearing only; sealed is fine but they better hold up.
2. Foam filled drive wheel tires and solid rubber casters on the front; right from the factory.
3. A lever to release the tension pulley on the on the hydro drive belt for cold morning starts.
4. Power is everything.
5. Faster ground speed options for getting from a to b. Not necessarily to mow with.
6. If you do manual blade engagement, do not copy any current design, they all stink.
7. All of the other lawnsite posts I second as well especially the oil change issue.
8. Possibly look at removable deck baffles because some grass does not want the mulched effect. If you could cut and throw high thick grass with no baffling and then cut normal lawns with baffling you'd have a mower that could do it all.
9. Some kind of dischage schute control because sometimes you just can't throw grass. Like an OCDC.
10. 3 year bumper to bumper commercial warranty.

Where do I place my order?

Who is the best right now? Scag, Exmark/Toro and Bobcat are all good. But, with some tweaking they could be much better!

[fdew]

Use one of these Use one of these http://www.carrlane.com/oncatfrm.html but with 4 balls like this http://www.carrlane.com/oncatfrm.html as your spindle bolt. It will allow for a no tool, no nut to lose blade change. You will need to control the center hole in the blade to .005 but in production that would be easy to do. I think it could be engineered as a retro fit for other mowers as well.

Frank

[Eng Mwr Guy]

THANK YOU everyone for responding.

I have no ego when it comes to making a good machine. I assume I know nothing and the user knows everything.

I thought Scag, Toro, and Snapper were the best machines from an engineering standpoint. Exmark was not on my list to do some creative borrowing. Surprise, surprise.... I was wrong.

I will look into solid front casters for 2002.

I will look into lift & block for holding mower up for 2002.

The grips will possibly change for 2003. To be honest I wanted to see how the Exmark ECS was accepted in the market. Sometimes what appears to be a neat idea doesn't always work well 10 hours per day 6 days per week. I have no idea since I make my living sitting on my butt for the most part.

Anyone for a partridge in a pear tree....LOL. I am really going to have to hustle though cause of all the testing I have to do.

Once again, thank you everyone for your responses. I appreciate it and hope I can serve you/the market well.

Barry Adamski
badamski@ariens.com
Sr. Project Engineer
Commercial Walkbehinds
Ariens / Gravely

My saying:
Fall in love with the customer, not the product.

[Edited by Eng Mwr Guy on 01-09-2001 at 09:02 AM]

[Strawbridge Lawn]

From my standpoint, I would like to see the walk-behind evolve into a unit that with a velke can also tow somethin. An improved bagging system. Perhaps even a bag-mulch combination where with mulching blades/kit some of the larger particles would be bagged with vast majority being returned to the soil bed.
Easier controls..

[kutnkru]

There are many chain link fences adjoing the properties we cut. We have purcahsed bunton rollers and repainted them to match our machines.

Just a thought.
Kris

[MOW ED]

Hi Barry,
You have some great ideas and its good to see Ariens/Gravely jumping in deeper into the commercial market.

BTW if you have some units you need field tested mayby we can work out a deal as I'm 20 miles north of you in De Pere. Good Luck, Welcome aboard.

[TGCummings]

Hey Barry, thanks for coming here, to the lifeblood of the industry, for ideas. So often we start to run these machines and ask ourselves, "Did the guy that designed this actually ever cut a lawn? What were they thinking!?"

As we all strive to do, you have placed yourself outside and above your peers by going straight to the people who will use your machine. Bully to you, my friend.

As for design changes I would recommend, the best have already been offered. My top three would be:

1) Easier access for oil changes.
2) Ease of height adjustments.
3) Quicker change from mulching to bagging or side chute.

Again, thanks for posting your questions here. Good luck with your designs!

-TGC

[Vandora Lawn & Landscape]

Maybe try working for a couple of contractors and see how a wb handle on a day to day basis cutting commerically?

[Cutter1]

remote controlled walk behinds!! Sit in the air conditioned truck and play!! I like Exmarks new ecs, easy to use and comfortable. Parking brake would be nice. Foam filled front tires. cup holders standard :) Avoid Kohler engines

[kutnkru]

I'd like to have the option of tires where the tread pattern would read... BITE ME!!!

For "special" customer's of course.

Kris

[SMB]

GREASABLE ball bearings on all joints, a "self cleaning" deck, a rear roller with a FULL FLOATING deck, and a price tag that'll make me buy one. ;) Only Kawasaki engines, and mount the oil filter AWAY from the engine. Sorry I'm a little late!

[65hoss]

Well, I guess the only thing left is to add a helper to the shipping box and we have a deal. :cool:

[Vibe Ray]

Also don't forget to make double blades standard (2 blades per spindle)! Hey Barry, I think you would greatly benenfit if you read through this site a lot more we ahve got tons and tons and tons of invaluable information for a guy like you especially!!!

[Runner]

Oh, you're from GRAVELY? If THAT'S the case, then you DEFINITELY need to improve the acoustics of your decks to lay down a decent cut without clumping. I have a Promaster 300 rider that I have done some modifications to to achieve a decent cut, but for 6 years prior to that, it was nothing but double cutting if anything had half thick grass and I wanted it to look decent. Also, you MUST have a floating deck design. Just don't put one of those pivoting front axles on the front like your ZTR's have. This is completely useless, especially since it doesn't allow the operator to hang a wheel over the edge of a curb or anything - causing more trimming to be done. Also, use a more solid hub design. This applies to ALL machines, WB's included. When my hub(s) went out on my 300, it was funny that they recommended the Exmark hubs to go on. After seeing the difference in design, it was no wonder. Check them out. Someone had mentioned something about double blades. Lose the spindle cradle! Just go with a flush mount like Exmark and others. Other than that, in my opinion, your machines are Fantastic!

[Edited by Runner on 01-09-2001 at 07:22 PM]

[cantoo]

Make the tractor unit separate so that you can buy one tractor unit and just buy different sized and types of decks. Then you could also have a full line of attachments for it. It would have a quick tach type mount on the front for attachments. Fertilizer spreaders, liquid sprayers, aerators, rollers, dumpbox, the list would be endless.

[Eng Mwr Guy]

The 50 inch deck will work with excellence in any condition up to puddles being mowed. It will be full floating as standard. There will be a striping option. Actually, I am kinda excited about the 50 inch deck hydro unit and the high end gear unit that will have the 50 inch deck. This should satisfy most of your quality of cut requests. I have some work to do on "quick change" baggind/side discharge. Then again, that's why I am here.

Thank You!!!

[kutnkru]

Your units are twice as expensive if not almost tripple what the other equipment vendors charge. Can you do anything to bring your product back to the ball park??

Kris
Upstate NY

[Eng Mwr Guy]

Please specify who is half the price of the Gravely for this or last years model. From the research I have done we are within 20% of most. I have been wrong before though so pleas show me.

Cost is a HUGE consideration in this design. I am killing myself to save quarters while making sure the money is spent wherever necessary to ensure a good design.

[kutnkru]

It would appear that Fred (local dealer) needs to school his boys a little better about the products and lines they sell. I looked thru our estimate files and in September we were quoted $5400 for the unit + deck. The unit in question was a 36" 13hp Hydro WB.

The "unit" I just found out after calling Fred (because of your answer) was actually the Traction Unit for a 2-wheel tractor.

Here is his estimate for a 36 belt drive:
Pro Series 100
$659 -Deck 36"
$1419 -Unit 14/hp Kawasaki

I didnt have the heart to tell him we upgraded our (2) 48" Hydros to the competion because they "appeared" to be so much lower in cost at $3200 each.

Sorry about the scare, but Im glad Fred now knows to better educate his employees. Hopefully now we all win.

Kris

[rdh]

put the same kind of coatting under the deck,,like a nonstick pan.

[Eng Mwr Guy]

LOL.

I am glad...well...more relieved actually.

All dealers have a few less than star performers.

The 2-wheel tractor is the Gravely trademark machine. If your great granddad had a Gravely this was it. It is expensive but historically accurate. It has a niche.

Thank You for taking the time to investigate this. I will admit I was a little alarmed.

[Skookum]

I like Cantoo's suggestion.

Gravely is known for their two wheel tractor that added attachments. Use that knowledge to make a traction unit like Toro has for years allowing the addition of a different deck carrier and deck, only make it quick hitch stlye with options of attachments.

Look where Toro is going with the Dingo line of equipment geared toward mainly Landscape constuction work. One power source many attachments. Make something alittle smaller that is not so construction ground contact intended, but can handle attachments just a grade higher than average lawn or garden tractors that can handle upper soil contact. Make it for the LAWN maintenance industry. I think there are more of us just maintaining than maintaining and installing landscaping.

A 20 hp traction unit with additional hydraulics could easily power the following.

Optional attachments:
- Quality cut mower decks; side discharge, mulch, bag, combo's
- Rough cut decks, bush hog style
- Reel mower and gangs of reel mowers
- Sickle bar mower
- Snow blower
- Snow/dozer blade
- Power broom
- Vaccum system
- Trencher
- Edger trenching style
- Power dump wagon like a concrete buggy
- Material bucket capable of picking up and dumping as little as a few hundred pounds
- Areators
- Tiller
- Roller
- Power box rake or rock hound
- Seeder
- Sprayer
- Spreader
- Blower
- Ride on attachments, sulky, seat type
- Cab enclosure
- Articulated four wheel stability attachment with rider area
- Tracks

No matter what attachments would be available, make them fit every model always for ever. Every new improvemnet would not require a new model that would not work on older equipment. In a few years, Graverly would own the professional Lawn Maintenance arena.

I realize this does not sound like a walk behind, but that is because it has not been made yet, do not follow the pack, lead it, make something new. We have a selection of walk behinds now that are too many to choose.

Just my .02

[ericksonbrad@hotmail.com]

1) quick adjust deck

2) larger rear wheels (hydros especially) for less tearing

3) deck suspension system on floating deck for less banging. (rubber pads on toro walks dont last).

4) dane makes a 52" walk that folds up to get 36" through gates, problem is need to go back to 52" to mow and some fenced yards need to be mowed with a smaller deck to look good.

5) trailer space!!!!!!!!! running out fast.


i know this is alot to ask. if i think of anything more i'll let you know

[kutnkru]

When I saw one of those machines I dang near caused an accident pulling a u-turn to cut back into the lot.

I ooo'ed and awe'ed over that machine like a little kid in a candy store. Walked up to the counter and told him "I'll take as many as ya got!!" knowing that he only keeps two of each machine in stock.

If there was some way to disengage the belt for the wing (so to speak) it could be a hot commodity.

Or a good way to mow n shear at the same time -- LOL

Kris

[Eng Mwr Guy]

Skookum

Check out http://www.gravely.com

Look at the skidster.

Opinions? Price?

[Vibe Ray]

Hey Barry, read some of these ideas!!! Most of them are really far-fetched, but who knows! Let us know what ya think. It's also nice to see that you are sticking around!
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=6488

[Getmow]

I think Skookum was talking about a mower that doubles as everything else. Like the old power units. Just include some of the other features in the design that others have posted.

[ericksonbrad@hotmail.com]

Eng Mwr Guy

thought of something else, talked to my father in law who does some smaller jobs in area's we are advertised in but dont service and he said that in his opinion there is a huge gap between 21" mowers and 36" mowers sure there are some companies attempting to fill this hole (snapper 27" troy built 33"? and stealth 33") but what a joke. it seems that even some homeowners would be buyers if someone would come up with a well built say 28", 30" or 32" walk for a reasonable price. seems like a no brainer to me.

[Skookum]

Eng Mwr Guy,

I have seen the skidster, I had forgotten Graverly made that unit. But, it is like the Toro Dingo's. It is made for a more serious ground contact, slash, landscape construction niche in this industry.

$14,000 - 17,000 for a unit is too much for small Lawn Maintenance companies like myself, in my opinion. I can rent them for those type jobs when I want. But, having one is not practical, sense most of us do not do that much construction of landscapes. Also, I believe there are more companies across the country like myself, than there are that can afford or need a Dingo or Skidster.

I am talking about a unit that is made for working smaller and more just on maintenance with a entry price tag in the $4,000 -$5,000 grear drive and $5,000 - $6,000 hydro range that would be a traction unit and a mower deck option included, just like most lawn and garden tractors on the market or commercial walkbehinds that you can buy today.

I was thinking of a traction unit that would be just like a Toro Proline walkbehind minus the deck carrier frame and deck itself. That could be quickly fitted with additional equipment with a few pin pulls, etc, that would do light ground contact, in otherwords, no digging or lifting great amounts of weight.

I just think that if one was available it would fill a niche or create one. Think about it, all most all Lawn Maintenance companies have walkbehind units. If one was available at approximatly the same price tag, that was the MOST versitile, with additional attachments, why would anyone buy just a walkbehind that is only a mower.

[Richard Martin]

Brad Erikson,
If you can stand to go 1 inch smaller (26") then look at the Kee. It is commercial, self propelled or push, has a variety of engines and is built like a tank. There is one on my shopping list for this spring. If you don't have a dealer nearby then Kee mowers can be purchased through http://www.alamia.com . Also, Exmark, Toro and others make a 32" mower. The Kee website can be found at http://www.trailmate.com .

[Skookum]

Ericksnbrad,

I have used a Troybuilt 33" for several years now. I cannot speak for Snapper's 27 or the Stealth, but there is really nothing junky about the Troybuilt. For what you pay for one, a small 21" commercial unit costs about the same. I use mine anywhere I can where I would normally have to use the 21". I think most do not see the Troybuilt as a commercial unit because it does not have a big steel welded deck or because it has hard plastic caster wheels. But I can testify, that for the money, it is a very vesitile little mower, that gives very good results for what it was intended.

You can buy plenty of commercial 32's and 36's but at twice to three times the price of a Troybuilt 33". Most 32-36" commercial units do not have combo decks for mulching or discharging. The Troybuilt comes in pretty handy when you do not want to throw grass, so you mulch, then when you want the speed mowing back you get from discharging you just put the plug in and go, no kits, no new blades, just mow.

[Edited by Skookum on 01-12-2001 at 03:46 AM]

[Island Lawn]

I considered Gravely wb once. I was lucky enough to be warned by the good people here that at 6'4", I am too tall for the Gravely. I located my local dealer, walked up to the Gravely, looked down, way down, and walked away.

[ericksonbrad@hotmail.com]

Skookum

i admit i have looked at but never mowed with any of these decks and i'm sure that they all have good and bad points. i agree with you about the price factoring into all of this as well, its just that i have to agree with my father in-law in seeing a hole that exists in both price and quality. the 32 and 36 decks are 2000+ dollars and the troy, snapper and stealths are 900+ we just agreed that something in the middle might be nice. saw an old old toro wb 30" a couple of weeks ago at a dealer in long lake, mn. and thought wouldnt it be nice if? i thought the same thing about having my 16h.p. truck loader double as a chipper and i saw today at the same dealer that trac-vac has come out with exactly that but only up to 10h.p. on their vac units and they are again very expensive.



hope i didnt dig to big a hole for myself. i find sometimes my foot becomes lodged and its hard to get it out. please dont take it personally. thanx! brad

[Skookum]

Brad,

Did not take it personal at all. Hope it did not look like I was barking back at you. That is the only thing about posting sometimes, the reader cannot always tell the writers emotions, passion, or intent sometimes. I guess it looked like I was barking back at you since I addressed the post to you, sorry, not intended to be that way.

I just mentioned those opinions of mine about my experience with the Troybuilt so others might have a little info, if they read this thread, before they might dismiss the usefulness of a Troybuilt from what I have seen it do.

[ericksonbrad@hotmail.com]

Skookum

thanx i think its cool how many people have responded to this thread and i think varying opinions are why this site rocks! thanx! brad

[awm]

I would like to see an user easy mower with]
a set up that allowed you to use the motor power
for other purposes.PRESSURE WASHER,GENERATOR,
all kinds of stuff.If that was done right
it could be the future seems to me.

[DimndKutr]

Need to see a WB that can be operated with on hand, left or right.

[Skookum]

ONE HAND USE!

Toro T-bar! I use mine with one hand off the controls quite alot.