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SystemXpert
09-16-2004, 06:43 PM
Ok,

I did some reading and thinking about using Milorganite this year in my lawn feeding program. I've read about spoon-feeding and I'm thinking of applying 10 pounds per 1000SqFt each month starting in April :angel: through August. Milorganite is 6-2-0 so it doesn't seem like a huge amount of N, I don;t think the lawn will have too much top-growth or burn. Sept-Nov I would increase this amount to 15 pounds per 1000SqFt and finish in Dec with a 20 Pounds per 1000SqFt. (The lawn would then sit during the winter).

Any Suggestions ? Does this seem like a good idea ? Maybe drop down to 8lbs per 1000Sqft in the Summer?

Thanks
SystemXpert

Hamons
09-17-2004, 06:22 PM
The program you describe is geared towards cool season grasses -- so I assume that is what you have.


This program would provide your lawn with almost 7#N and 2.5# Phos and 0# Potash. This is not an ideal program in my area. I would want to see a whole lot less N and a whole lot more Potash.

Do you do a pre-eemergent in the Springtime?

In my area I would be getting very little benefit from your Novemeber and December application because temps are too cool.

I use a milorganite like product in the summer and a more blanced organic based product for otehr applications.

timturf
09-17-2004, 09:37 PM
no response after soil temp drops below 50 degrees.
Agree with hamons, I believe too much n and p, and no sop. Again assuming its a cool season turf. I believe 4lbs of n/m/yr with clipping return would be plenty!

Here in va, you should apply 60 to 100% of nitrogen to release in fall or late winter, depending on your maintence level
tim

SystemXpert
09-18-2004, 08:52 AM
Ok, I did some more thinking and you guys are right. There is too much N.

Here is my revised plan. Ok, I live in SC so we have a long growing season. In fact soil temps don't usually drop below 50 degrees until Dec. Yes, this is for cool season grass.

Sept. - Annual Restoration
Aerate & Overseed. Lesco 18-24-12 starter Fertilizer w Lesco Transitional Blend Fescue Seed. Topdress with Milorganite 6-2-0 7lbs per 1000ft and some loose peat to cover seed.

Oct - Nov
Milorganite 6-2-0 7lbs per 1000ft AND Lesco 0-0-62 applied at 1/6th rate. (Monthly applications)

Dec
Milorganite 6-2-0 25lbs per 1000ft AND Lesco 0-0-62 Applied at 1/3rd rate

Jan-March - no Fertilization (Winter Time)

Late Feb & Late March - Lesco Dimension 0-0-7m (Premergent Weed Control)

April-Aug
Milorganite 6-2-0 7lbs per 1000Ft and Lesco 0-0-62 Applied at 1/6th rate.

I think these revisions should ensure steady even growth with good color.

Your thoughts? Suggestions? Yes, I know its not totally organic, but I think its a good trade off.

SystemXpert

timturf
09-18-2004, 06:40 PM
I'm confused!
How many lbs/m of 18-24-12?
Oct - Nov, is that an application each month of 6-2-0?
Dec, why 25lbs/m of 6-2-0, When 90% of n won't release until soil temps reach 50 -55 degrees?
April - Aug, is this 5 applications of 6-2-0 at .78lbs/m?
How many lbs/m of 0-0-62?

WHY
0-0-62, high salt index?
why 10 visit to overseed and fertilize?

Milorganite will respond for @ 6 weeks at .5 to .75lbs of n/m
lesco 18-24-12, what is salt index, does it contain sop, what % controlleled slow release n, what are the n sources?
NOT ENOUGH N release in fall, WAY tTOO MUCH n release in summer months!!

NOTE: I said release, or available, not when it was applied!!!!!!

Organic, not the chemist def, animal or plant residue that once was living, feeds the microbes and adds organic matter to soil.

Most sythetic fert. have a high salt index, which hurts or kills the soil micr organism!!!!!!!!

Some sythetic ferts have a very low salt index, one i know of is lower than milorganite!!!!!!!

Sythetic fert, you have to watch the chlorine content and the salt index!!!1

Need to use both sources of fert, just need to know how!
what about espoma 4-10-6 bulb tone for a starter?

just my thoughts and input! Hope to keep you thinking!

How about some other input from the rest of the gang!!!!!!!!

SystemXpert
09-18-2004, 08:14 PM
Ok...

Here are some more details:

1. The Lesco 18-24-12 would be applied at 4lbs per 1000ft. The bag says 9.0% Chlorine. As far as salt content is says on the bag the Potassium Chloride CAS# 7447-40-7 ...not sure how much that is. The N source is UREA 8.8% and Ammoniaical 9.2% (4.05% of the UREA is slow release)

2. For Oct-Nov.....yes it was going to be each month.

3. The 25lbs per 1000ft in Dec was supposed to be a Dormant Feeding to get ready for Spring. (At least according to the Milorganite website)

4. April - Aug would be each month, 5 total. 7lbs Milorganite 6-2-0 per 1000ft each month. (Spoon Feeding according to their website)

5. Ok "why 10 visit to overseed and fertilize?" Not sure what you mean by that.

If the Lesco 0-0-62 MOP has high in Salt (Not sure if it does) and will counteract the Milorganite, could you suggest an alternative to get some K into my program?

Thanks

SystemXpert

timturf
09-18-2004, 10:33 PM
Any other input from the rest of you guys?

dishboy
09-18-2004, 11:04 PM
According to primal seed beet waste is .4 Nitrogen, .5 Phospheric acid, 3 Potash.

Amalgamated suger in town sells pelletized beet waste at $40 to $80 a ton. People are feeding it to cattle and race horses I am told by one of their employee's. It would seem to me that at this price mixed with 6-2-0 would give a pretty decent NPK at cheap pricing. Any thoughts anybody.

Also what do you guys feel about people poop as a OM source compared to Corn, Alfalfa, Soy as far as soil health, feeding microbes etc.?

Sop goes for $ 8.00 per 50lbs around here as another way to pick up potash. Wilber- Ellis

SystemXpert
09-19-2004, 12:30 AM
Alright, I feel pretty good about my revised program except I'm going to switch the MOP Potash to SOP. You guys are right again. The Salt and Chlorine content is high in Lesco 0-0-62 MOP.

Any suggestions for an SOP product?

I know the lesco starter could be replaced, but I only plan on using it once a year. So I don't think chemical content will destroy all microbs in the soil.

My other question is about the Dimension 0-0-7M preemgerent. Will this ruin my soil structure? Or is it simply a barrier that will prevent weeds from germinating?

I plan on reducing my use of this each year as my turf gets thicker and more able to crowd out weeds on its own.

SystemXpert

Hamons
09-19-2004, 12:42 AM
SOP is a good alternative. If buting straigh SOP do not worry about brand -- it is simplya raw material.

Dimension will not ruin soil structure. Proabbly your best best for pre-emergent. Least amount of root pruning to products available for residential use.

One thing to looka t -- since it seems liek you shop at lesco -- look at their sustane products. More complete than Milorganite. WOuld not need to do seperate application of sop then.

I would put the 25# of milorganite down in late AUg or Early Nov --then it will be used inthe fall to help with root growth. By putting it down in December -- you are really applying 1.5# of N in the early Spring -- stand back and watch it grow! You'll be cutting every day!

Hamons
09-19-2004, 12:52 AM
Dishboy ---

so at .4% N I would need to apply 250#/m just to get 1#N. SO for my fall program I would be applying 625#'s? YIKES!

Did you mean 4%?

dishboy
09-19-2004, 02:01 AM
Dishboy ---

so at .4% N I would need to apply 250#/m just to get 1#N. SO for my fall program I would be applying 625#'s? YIKES!

Did you mean 4%?

I was suggesting mixing the beet waste with milorganite to gain potash from a organic source. This would be for light summer feeding. I got plenty of growth and color for six weeks using milorganite at 12 lbs per 1000 this summer, so if you wanted half as much K as N would not 12 lbs beet waste at 3% get you there. This would be 24 lbs material per 1000, a lot of work but a lot of OM also. Cost would be $ 2.98 per 1000 at my prices here.

Back to my question, does the soil or microbes care if the food source is people poop, a grain, or for that matter blood, feathers, or even grass clippings which I read is 3% N? . Is one organic source better than another as far as adding OM or the soil is concerned?

SystemXpert
09-19-2004, 09:00 AM
Ok,

" I would put the 25# of milorganite down in late AUg or Early Nov --then it will be used inthe fall to help with root growth. By putting it down in December -- you are really applying 1.5# of N in the early Spring -- stand back and watch it grow! You'll be cutting every day "

Hamons,

I was under the impression Milorganite did not produce huge spurts because of its ultra slow release?

By I thought about Sustane 4-6-4, but the problem is cost. Sustane is $20-$25 bucks a bag. I also wanted more control of the K & N nutrients separately.

I know I should not believe everything I read from a manfactuer's website.

Bascially they suggest.

1#N 17# Milorganite per 1000ft in Fall
1.5#N 25# Milorganite per 1000ft in Dormant
1#N 17# Milorganite per 1000ft in Spring
.5#N 17# Milorganite per 1000ft in Summer (Monthly)

I bascially took their program and split the spring & Fall applications into 2 feedings. This makes the whole things into spoon-feeding program. My revised plan:

Sept. - Annual Restoration
Aerate & Overseed. Lesco 18-24-12 starter Fertilizer w Lesco Transitional Blend Fescue Seed. Topdress with Milorganite 6-2-0 7lbs per 1000ft and some loose peat to cover seed.

Oct - Dec (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 10lbs per 1000ft & SOP 0-0-50 applied at 1/5th rate.

Jan-March - no Fertilization (Winter Time)

Late Feb & Late March - Lesco Dimension 0-0-7m (Premergent Weed Control)

April-Aug (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 7lbs per 1000Ft & SOP 0-0-50 Applied at 1/5th rate.


Now the total Pounds of N per year from the Milorganite is approximately 4. I don't count the overseed treatment of Lesco 18-24-12 because the lawn is stressed from areration and the new seed needs the extra nutrients.

Your Thoughts?

SystemXpert

timturf
09-19-2004, 11:41 AM
Too much n in summer!!!!!!!!!!!

Barricade, I believe does less root prunning than dimension!

9lbs/m of milorganite, = .54 lbs/m of n Using that rate in wisc would be fine, but not in your country

Va. tech, suggest you apply 2/3 to 100% of nitrogen in fall, with 33% of n in spring if applying high rates of n, like 3-5lbs of n /m / season. You should check their web page

Milorganite wont provide a flush of growth, but your 1.
5lbs of n dec application, 90% will carry over into spring and most will start releasing 2-3 weeks before crab grass germinates!!!!!!!! Do you want that much growth then?

SystemXpert
09-19-2004, 09:28 PM
Ok, I first want to thank everyone that has responded. Your suggestions have saved me from making some costly errors. Taking everything into accounts here is my revised program.

Sept. - Annual Restoration
Milorganite 6-2-0 8lbs per 1000ft = .47N
Aerate & Overseed Lesco Transitional Blend Fescue
Lesco 18-24-12 5lbs per 1000ft

Oct,Nov, Dec (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 16lbs per 1000ft = .94N x 3 months = 2.82lbsN

Jan,Feb, March - no Fertilization (Winter Time)

Late Feb & Late March - Lesco Dimension 0-0-7m (Premergent Weed Control)

April & May (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 7 8lbs per 1000ft = .47N x 2 months = .94lbsN

June,July,Aug (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 7 5lbs per 1000ft = .29N x 3 months = .87lbsN

Total Nitrogen for year = 5.1lbs (Almost 70% applied during the Fall)

Now, I need to mention a few more things. I do plan to incorporate some SOP 0-0-50, just need to find a place to buy it. Lesco only sells MOP. Lawn clippings are only partially returned. The customer would like every other mowing to be bagged. (Can't convince her to mulch all the time) I'm not counting the 18-24-12 starter fert in the yearly total since the lawn will be stressed and most of the nutrients will be used by the baby seedlings.

Any suggestions for buying 0-0-50 SOP or something similar????

Thanks

SystemXpert
:blob3:

Hamons
09-20-2004, 12:13 AM
Better program. But -- I thought this was for your yard!!! The thought of doing this program comercially make smy head spin --- it would be way too costly for me to consider and would not offer too much benefit over a 4 or 5 step program usign simialr high quality components.

Sulphate of Potash can be bought at Regal Chemical -- Regalchem.com

SystemXpert
09-20-2004, 12:35 AM
Hamons,

Yes it is for my yard, as a trial. The customer I have this in mind for is willing to pay the premium. I don't plan offer this to everyone yet, I want to see it work on my own yard first. This is sort of the Research & Development side of the business.

SystemXpert

dishboy
09-20-2004, 12:37 AM
Ok, I first want to thank everyone that has responded. Your suggestions have saved me from making some costly errors. Taking everything into accounts here is my revised program.

Sept. - Annual Restoration
Milorganite 6-2-0 8lbs per 1000ft = .47N
Aerate & Overseed Lesco Transitional Blend Fescue
Lesco 18-24-12 5lbs per 1000ft

Oct,Nov, Dec (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 16lbs per 1000ft = .94N x 3 months = 2.82lbsN

Jan,Feb, March - no Fertilization (Winter Time)

Late Feb & Late March - Lesco Dimension 0-0-7m (Premergent Weed Control)

April & May (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 7 8lbs per 1000ft = .47N x 2 months = .94lbsN

June,July,Aug (Monthly applications)
Milorganite 6-2-0 7 5lbs per 1000ft = .29N x 3 months = .87lbsN

Total Nitrogen for year = 5.1lbs (Almost 70% applied during the Fall)

Now, I need to mention a few more things. I do plan to incorporate some SOP 0-0-50, just need to find a place to buy it. Lesco only sells MOP. Lawn clippings are only partially returned. The customer would like every other mowing to be bagged. (Can't convince her to mulch all the time) I'm not counting the 18-24-12 starter fert in the yearly total since the lawn will be stressed and most of the nutrients will be used by the baby seedlings.

Any suggestions for buying 0-0-50 SOP or something similar????

Thanks

SystemXpert
:blob3:


Wilber-Ellis has SOP in greens grade which will mix well with Milorganite greens grade at $10.00 for 50 lbs.