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View Full Version : Which Lesco product is everyone using for winterizer?


dwost
10-15-2004, 10:00 AM
What are your preferences? I'm in Northern OH (zone 5 or 6 I believe)

TIA

cemars
10-15-2004, 04:39 PM
I like the 34-3-11 20% PSCU, a lot of bang for you buck.

Tscape
10-15-2004, 04:54 PM
I believe it is 32-3-8 with no slow release.

SodKing
10-15-2004, 05:09 PM
28-5-12 50%ppscu 3%fe

TSM
10-15-2004, 05:17 PM
I cant answer because I dont use Lesco.

But I am curious, I was recently in my local lesco service center (i do like the guys who work there, so i stop in every now and then) and they had a big sign behind the counter
WINTERIZE WITH 21-3-21 75%ppscu

they couldnt tell me why that particular analysis

would anyone here use this product for a late fall feeding? and why?

ThreeWide
10-15-2004, 05:50 PM
I cant answer because I dont use Lesco.

But I am curious, I was recently in my local lesco service center (i do like the guys who work there, so i stop in every now and then) and they had a big sign behind the counter
WINTERIZE WITH 21-3-21 75%ppscu

they couldnt tell me why that particular analysis

would anyone here use this product for a late fall feeding? and why?


To me, winterizer is to provide a feeding that will prepare the turf for periods of stress and also provide some stored nutrients for next Spring. What I look for is a high analysis of potassium which the 21-3-21 is. Something that is mostly nitrogen (32-3-8) is not a good example of a winterizer IMO.

Every climate zone and turf differs in requirements. For example with Bermuda in our area I winterize with a 5-10-31 because we don't want to apply much nitrogen this late in the year. If your turf is still in a growth stage, applying some nitrogen is fine. You just don't want to promote heavy growth prior to dormancy.

TSM
10-15-2004, 06:25 PM
Most turf experts recommend a 3-1-2 or 4-1-2 ratio of N-P-K on an established lawn. and that a lawn fertilizer should have at least one-half of its nitrogen in one of the slow-release forms. (although there is much debate about a late fall or 'winterizer' application and slow release N)

so the 21-3-21 is a bit out of whack? and I feel 75% ppscu is definately out of whack.

they (lesco) did say there biggest seller is the 34-3-11 20%scu

so the only conclusion i come up with for this service center to bepushing 21-3-21......well, i'll let everyone else come up with their own conclusion.

SodKing
10-15-2004, 07:27 PM
The UNH Cooperative extensions recommendation is usually 19-19-19. Which I find interesting as I went to UNH and the professors at the time did recommend a fertilizer with a 3-1-2 or 4-1-3 ratio. That being said, the state of Maine is phasing out the use of Phosphorous in fertilizers and NH is said to be close behind. This will lead to most of our fertilizers in the area having a 3-0-2 or 4-0-3 ratio.

I think Lesco's 21-0-21 fertilizer is an excellent fertilizer in the NH area. It will provide enough Nitrogen to accomodate current growth. Plenty of potassium to improve disease resistance. The product is extremely slow release. This is fine for this area, whatever is not used by the plant will freeze in the soil and be ready for use by the plant in the spring for an early green up.

I prefer the 28-5-12 as it releases more quickly and has a higher % iron to improve color.

timturf
10-15-2004, 08:30 PM
normally a winterizer contains a high rate of k!
8-4-24
21-0-21

alot depends on when you make application, and what % slow release and from what source!

In my zone their is no need for a winterizer, because the winters are very mild for cool season turf, but if i was growing a warm season turf, winterizer would be a must!

My cool season turf receives a low n, high k, with fe for a early summer application!

turf hokie
10-15-2004, 08:34 PM
I use 32-5-7 25% ppscu or 34-3-11 20% ppscu. Applied late oct thru november. gets into the root system before dormancy for early spring green up.

chefdrp
10-16-2004, 12:20 AM
28-5-12 50%

SystemXpert
10-16-2004, 10:36 AM
Lesco Novex 18-2-18M 51% TCRN

dwost
10-16-2004, 11:00 AM
Thanks all! I'm leaning toward 34-3-11.

green with envy
10-16-2004, 12:58 PM
I'm using 24-0-11 this year most areas are zero phosphorus around here.

Mike

timturf
10-16-2004, 04:08 PM
You need more k!

Runner
10-16-2004, 04:18 PM
I agree with the higher K than 11 for the final ap. Also, the Novex, as was stated above would be ok down there, as you still have growing grass through the winter. Up here, it would just be a complete waste at this time, because it would just leach through the fall and spring rains, as well as the thaw before it (the majority) would even be usable.

dwost
10-16-2004, 10:05 PM
Joe, what are you putting down this year? I used a starter last year with K around 18 and it seemed to work well.

gscone
10-17-2004, 10:23 PM
Isn't it too late to apply a winterizer? I'm in Zone 7 (NY).

GC

turfsurfer
10-18-2004, 09:38 AM
Dwost, disregard all the posts from guys in warm season grass areas. Those grasses need a good shot of K to help them survive the winters. In cool season grass areas we do what is called late season fertilization. Your 34-3-11 , 20% SCU is fine. I use 35-3-5 all soluble, but even 46-0-0 is OK. The application should be timed for November after most growth has stopped but BEFORE the grass goes dormant. Rate should be 1-1/12 lbs N/1000 sq ft. The reason for the low slow release content is that release should not be temperature dependant and it has to get to the roots before they go dormant or it is wasted. Be careful, apply too early and you could get a growth flush and possible snow mold problems. Check out BYGL website (OSU extension)and the October 7 edition has a section comparing "winterizer" fertilizers and late fall fertilizing. If you have extremely harsh winters, your 11% K might be helpful even in cool season turf depending on grass type.

chimmygew
10-18-2004, 10:44 AM
I think the guy that takes care of the Indianapolis Indians Ballpark uses 0-0-50.

http://www.ballparkreviews.com/indy/victory.htm#

A buddy of mine used to work at Lesco and said that is what he always bought.

dwost
10-18-2004, 11:22 AM
Dwost, disregard all the posts from guys in warm season grass areas. Those grasses need a good shot of K to help them survive the winters. In cool season grass areas we do what is called late season fertilization. Your 34-3-11 , 20% SCU is fine. I use 35-3-5 all soluble, but even 46-0-0 is OK. The application should be timed for November after most growth has stopped but BEFORE the grass goes dormant. Rate should be 1-1/12 lbs N/1000 sq ft. The reason for the low slow release content is that release should not be temperature Dependant and it has to get to the roots before they go dormant or it is wasted. Be careful, apply too early and you could get a growth flush and possible snow mold problems. Check out BYGL website (OSU extension)and the October 7 edition has a section comparing "winterizer" fertilizers and late fall fertilizing. If you have extremely harsh winters, your 11% K might be helpful even in cool season turf depending on grass type.


Thanks for the great info. I'm going to do the 34-3-11 and was planning on waiting till Nov to apply. This should be just about right on timing for N. Ohio. I'm aerating this afternoon when I get home from work and will wait a couple of weeks to apply the fert. Last year, we had a really mild fall and I think the fert was applied too soon as I did experience a growth flush. Luckily I didn't end up with snow mold. :) Anyway, thanks again to all for their input.

TSM
10-18-2004, 05:17 PM
Dwost, disregard all the posts from guys in warm season grass areas. Those grasses need a good shot of K to help them survive the winters. In cool season grass areas we do what is called late season fertilization. Your 34-3-11 , 20% SCU is fine. I use 35-3-5 all soluble, but even 46-0-0 is OK. The application should be timed for November after most growth has stopped but BEFORE the grass goes dormant. Rate should be 1-1/12 lbs N/1000 sq ft. The reason for the low slow release content is that release should not be temperature dependant and it has to get to the roots before they go dormant or it is wasted. Be careful, apply too early and you could get a growth flush and possible snow mold problems. Check out BYGL website (OSU extension)and the October 7 edition has a section comparing "winterizer" fertilizers and late fall fertilizing. If you have extremely harsh winters, your 11% K might be helpful even in cool season turf depending on grass type.

BINGO!
I questioned why the local lesco service center is pushing 21-3-21 75%pscu in new england as their 'winterizer'????
we are using a 34-4-12 soluable (recent winters have been harsh) but not a lesco product

PR Fect
10-18-2004, 11:14 PM
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/4DMG/Lawns/mythwint.htm

Have been watching this thread and been reading very carefully. Was just headed out this week to pick up our winterizer for our lawns here in Wisconsin. Only need about 10 bags for the jobs that we use it on. Last year we put down 18-8-18 / 45% SCU that was reccommended by Reinder's, a midwest LCO supplier. Found this website from U of CO.

jajwrigh
10-18-2004, 11:41 PM
I think the guy that takes care of the Indianapolis Indians Ballpark uses 0-0-50.

http://www.ballparkreviews.com/indy/victory.htm#

A buddy of mine used to work at Lesco and said that is what he always bought.


I find that very hard to believe! Where is the N? I am going to use 46-0-0!! I will apply mid November to get the energy stored into the roots for any dry conditions next summer... :drinkup:

ThreeWide
10-19-2004, 09:37 AM
This has been an interesting thread.

What this has proven thus far is that a Winterizer is subject to your climate and turf type. Northern and transition turf types are much different from southern and warm season turf regarding this application. It seems that applying Nitrogen in the fall is a good practice in the cooler climates.

For the southern zone folks here, we have always been told by the university research teams that applying sources of Nitrogen to warm season turf after Sept 15 is a bad practice. They claim that by doing so, you can contribute to Spring Dead Spot disease the next year. For that reason, we use high potassium for a Winterizer to help protect against winterkill. Winterkill is a reality with Bermuda in the upper South.

timturf
10-19-2004, 11:34 AM
The myth of a winterizer!, from colostate. good article

Good post turfunlimited, And are we talking warm or cool season turf!

Need to consider turf type and density, soil type, n source, % slow release, how it releases, and how long to release to properly time your application! Also bear in mind your total fert program for the year!

Since I believe k and fe helps plant deal with stress, this nutrients need to be available when plant is in stress!

In my area, cool season turf is under stress in summer, while in far north, ex, mn, that will be in winter! So for cool season turf, thats two completely different times! Same can be said with warm season turf!
Again, in my local, warm season turf is under stress in the winter!

Was on a gc with warm season turf (bermunda) on fairways, tees, and green banks, while greens and rough was cool season turf! Two totally different programs!!!!!!!!!!!

AS stated, an interesting threat, do we need high k to winterizer or not? Some think necessary and others don't.

WATCH when n will release, and I believe have adequate k and fe available when your turf is under stress ! All depends on turf type and location!!!!!!

NCL
10-19-2004, 03:44 PM
18-24-12. end oct. beginning of nov. in NJ

quiet
10-19-2004, 10:42 PM
Yes! Very interesting! But as usual, not enough info for us in the deep South. Mild winters (60's for daytime highs and upper 30's, for nightime lows), with only an occasional cold snap (nights in the 20's, highs in the 40's) of short duration. Teens very infrequently. Tif 419 Bermuda lawns go dormant around December 1 and revive around March 1 (avg. 1st and last frost dates).

Been using a 21-7-14 w/30% Slow Release N (1lb/Msf) for a "winterizer" applied early to mid September. I say winterizer in quotes because it's really just the last (4th or 5th) fert for customers for the year, and it takes advantage of our "second season" of good growth: where daytime temps become tolerable (80's - but 95 today!), and fungus disease pressures have decreased.

Have used 1-0-1 ratios throughout the season prior to this point (Very high P, highly alkaline soils 7.8 ph).

Any opinions? Any input from Southern turfgrass guys is most appreciated!

timturf
10-19-2004, 10:55 PM
quiet, think you are on target!
study done in na va, extreme northern location for bermundagrass here in va,
late fall application of k, same amount of k, one was mop, other was sop, and control was no k

question, which one greenup first, and which one was last to greenup?

I would make sure some fe was applied in fall before dormancy, and if you spray fe before a hard frost, you can maintain the green much longer if you don't mow it off!

Look into using uf for slow release nitrogen

mikesturf
10-19-2004, 11:08 PM
Kind of like ordering pizza, everyone has their own idea of what toppings to put on. I quit using Lesco. I will be using 10-5-20. Chicago area.

quiet
10-19-2004, 11:47 PM
quiet, think you are on target!
study done in na va, extreme northern location for bermundagrass here in va,
late fall application of k, same amount of k, one was mop, other was sop, and control was no k

question, which one greenup first, and which one was last to greenup?

I would make sure some fe was applied in fall before dormancy, and if you spray fe before a hard frost, you can maintain the green much longer if you don't mow it off!

Look into using uf for slow release nitrogen

I'll bet the SOP greened up first. Much more friendly to the soil microbial population.

How'd I do?

timturf
10-19-2004, 11:58 PM
sop was first!
which one was last? control or mop

DUSTYCEDAR
10-20-2004, 12:05 AM
why is sop more friendly to the soil microbial population?

ThreeWide
10-20-2004, 12:18 AM
Been using a 21-7-14 w/30% Slow Release N (1lb/Msf) for a "winterizer" applied early to mid September. I say winterizer in quotes because it's really just the last (4th or 5th) fert for customers for the year, and it takes advantage of our "second season" of good growth: where daytime temps become tolerable (80's - but 95 today!), and fungus disease pressures have decreased.

Any opinions? Any input from Southern turfgrass guys is most appreciated!

I would not say how good your choice for winterizer would be without knowing results of a soil test. IF your subject lawn had enough K per acre already, that would be fine. You are in a milder climate than I, so the K requirements are probably not as critical. I use something like a 5-10-31 in this area.

If I was working your climate, I would most likely apply additional Fe just as Tim mentioned. By doing this in October, you can promote longer lasting color as the N wears down. While not required, it does make sense for the more demanding client who will pay for it. Your climate might also allow 1/2 lb of N in quick release form in October for your highest profile clients when a warm fall persists.

Hamons
10-20-2004, 05:43 PM
SOP is better because of it low salt and Chlorine content when compared to MOP