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View Full Version : How a rise in minumum wage would effect small business


Soupy
10-16-2004, 01:48 AM
This may be considered off topic, but since most LCO's are small business. I am wondering what kind of effect you think John Kerry's proposal to raise minimum wage to $7/hr over a 2 year period.


I know that minimum wage is low, and it is hard for people to raise a family on minimum wage. But I feel that a raise in minimum wage will just raise the cost of living that much more. I for one think that minimum wage jobs are more temporary work then career jobs.

A lot of LCO's in my area start workers out at $8/hr. I think they are worth $10/hr. But either way, with a raise in minimum wage. Do you think employees will want a slightly higher starting pay because of the hard work? I know some lazy people would rather take a easy job at Wal Mart then to labor in the heat.

If this is true, do you think the industry can handle more cost. I mean cost are climbing at every angle, but prices are the same as 15 years ago. I'm not sure what to expect. Maybe this is what we need to put the undesirables out of business. Maybe it will effect the low pricers, but they will still pop up long enough to keep prices down.

Lets hear it, do you think this will effect a lot of LCO's? I'm not wanting any arguing going on in this thread. Civil debating only please.

Envy Lawn Service
10-16-2004, 01:56 AM
Small business is the 'new' american economy and the birthplace of new jobs.
Anything that makes it harder than it already is for small businesses to survive will be a blow to the economy over the long haul.

work_it
10-16-2004, 02:06 AM
Kerry wants to raise the minimum wage and then turn around and raise taxes on individuals and small businesses. IOW, give a little and take a lot. I agree with ENVY, it's only going to hurt small businesses. With his plan we loose twice.

craigs lawncare
10-16-2004, 02:25 AM
Small business is the 'new' american economy and the birthplace of new jobs.
Anything that makes it harder than it already is for small businesses to survive will be a blow to the economy over the long haul.

Both previous posts hit the nail on the head on this subject.
Raising minimum wage is nothing more than campaign propaganda.

The bottom line... raising the minimum wage does nothing but hurt the economy for everyone in the long run... including the person who received the minimum wage increase in the first place.

Instead of forcing small businesses to shoulder the burden of pay increases for the poor, why not standardize schools... THEN, and ONLY then, put money into education.
Just throwing money at public education like one political party in particular is proposing, with-out fixing it first does nothing to increase the level of education the youth of our country receives.

Craig

oneandonlyjojo
10-16-2004, 02:47 AM
its gonna cause a lot of out sourcing but it shouldnt effect landscaping at all. i dunno who in there right mind would do this hard labor for $8 an hours though

Stephen M.
10-16-2004, 02:47 AM
Minimum wage in WA is already at $7.16 per hr and goes up every year. While we pay better than minimum wage, most retail and restaurants struggle. The net effect is that the guys who deserve raises at the top don't get them and the guys at the bottom get all of the extra money. It is having a devasting effect on agriculture--agri-business such as canneries are moving out of Washington. The family farmer struggles to pay wages and gets crap compensation for his crop. Its also bad for export competition.

Envy Lawn Service
10-16-2004, 02:52 AM
Instead of forcing small businesses to shoulder the burden of pay increases for the poor, why not standardize schools... THEN, and ONLY then, put money into education.
Just throwing money at public education like one political party in particular is proposing, with-out fixing it first does nothing to increase the level of education the youth of our country receives.

Craig

You dang right!!!

Talking down about the No Child Left Behind Act is also nothing more than campaign propaganda!

The results of this Act in my area are litterally staggering...
I wish I had cut the results out of the paper a while back. You'd be amazed!

Honestly though, I don't know what these highly educated youngsters are going to do for a living though. Manual labor jobs are flying out of the country and all those newer and better technical jobs we were supposed to get educated for in exchange for NAFTA and other free trade agreements are getting outsourced.

These agreements have put this country on a crash course for disaster. I'm sick of hearing about the "Budget Deficit"... let's talk about the "Trade Deficit"!!! The national economy is much like a retail store. But the US is a store that's buying more than it's selling and we can only survive it so long.

So in my opinion, repealing these free trade agreements is the first step to better wages. After all, we are now in a global wage competetion.

Olylawnboy
10-16-2004, 04:26 AM
Look guys, I just don't get this idea. Say your a solo operator doing great work and making a good living making the magic 60$ per hour and you now want to expand. So you want to hire some help and pay them,well, min wage yet charge your customer that same magic 60 an hour? for the labor of someone else that you pay so much less for. No wonder people bict*h about how much it costs to mow a lawn. To me, min wage has to to be the min it takes to provide a living for the person doing the labor. Don't get me wrong here, as I'm not saying min wage has to support a family, but it should support the person doing the work that's being charged for, otherwise it's not really a min wage....holly shi*t I'm having a flashback to my hippie days! awwww ;) "Power to the people, right on". Guess I'll never be a proper capitalist! Hi mom :waving:

sniggly
10-16-2004, 09:44 AM
Hold up Olylawnboy.

Let's boil this down to it 's most basic levels.

Let's say you own a hamburger shop (that's all you sell, no french fries or shakes) and you sell 1 hamburger for 1.00 dollar.

the buns and meat and condiments cost you .25 cents, the labor to make it costs you .25 cents, and the building, advertising, electricity etc. cost's you .25 cents out of each hamburger.

That leaves you .25 cents per burger to be taxed in accordance with whatever corporate structure you decide to have, and put the rest in your pocket. Let's say you net .15 cents per burger.

Now here comes your favorite government...and they tell you, "Listen, you have to pay your employee more money." NOT because your employee took it upon himself or herself to make a better burger, and NOT Because your employee is sooooooo good at what he/she does......it's because the constituency of this governmental body WOULDN'T take responsibility for the well being of their own lives and become better educated, thereby getting higher paying jobs, or take the time to figure out how to make a better mouse trap like you did.

WHATEVER amount that government body says you have to raise your employees salary is GOING TO COME OUT OF YOUR POCKET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I am talking about that net .15 cents you read about above. The other costs are fixed Sherlock!

It is not UP TO YOU to make sure your employee makes enough to make a living! It's not THEIR job to begin with anyway it's YOURS becuase you are the employer!!!!!!!! The job wouldn't be there to begin with if it weren't for you!

Minimum Wage has nothing to do with making lives better........it's vote buying in it's purest form

Wake up!

rodfather
10-16-2004, 09:48 AM
I don't think it's an issue that gets bounced around with my guys...they make 15 and 20 an hour already.

lawnguyland
10-16-2004, 09:59 AM
Give me a BREAK. Raise the minimum wage. How can anyone live on minimum wage, even if it is 7$/hr. Without tax thats $280/wk for 40 hrs. I need to make that in about 4 hours, not a week.

ALarsh
10-16-2004, 10:36 AM
People that have minimum wage jobs rarely do it for a living. Most of the people my age (15-17 years old) take minimum wage jobs for a buck or two during the summer.

Envy Lawn Service
10-16-2004, 12:31 PM
Personally, let me just start this by saying...
One of the big problems in this country today is nobody seems to care about anything going on that does not effect them personally, today. With that said I'll move on...

Here is an example of how increases in minimum wage and/or unfair wage competition from foreign imports have an effect on our industry in the long run, although in increase in minimum wage or an exported job doesn't really effect us, today. Or atleast a good example of how it has effected my business anyways.

Mom & Pop both start their own little businesses and have been running along pretty successfully for years. Envy comes along to one of these businesses with a lucrative little lawn & landscape proposal. Envy then proceeds to sell himself and point out how investing in Envy's level of services can generate a better image of Mom&Pop's business while possibly attracting the attention of the passing potential customer... value added services no less.

So Envy signs Mom&Pop on a good commercial service contract and both companies begin to grow together. Over time, Mom&Pop seeks additional help. so they hire HighSchool Kid, who needs some date money, Part-Time Gal, who needs some extra money to make ends meet, and lastly they hire Old Timer, who's looking for an air conditioned job to keep him active, while supplementing his retirement so he can comfortably afford to hire out all the hot work he shouldn't be struggling to do anymore.

During the course of the season, Mom&Pop struggle to keep up with the business, take care of things around home on Saturday, drive across to opposite ends of town on Sunday afternoon, drag out their parent's old lawn equipment and give their aging parent's lawns a lick and a promise. Meanwhile, Old Timer and his wife have come to admire Envy's work and Mom&Pop's shop.

So come spring, before renewing, Mom&Pop invite Envy to the estate their business affords them, to discuss servicing their home and their parents homes across town. They want a package deal on renewing at the business, full service at home, along with mow, trim, edge, blow and go, with the occasional extra at there parent's homes. Envy of course, is glad to be of service!

Likewise, Old Timer invites Envy for an estimate to take over where his old guy left off, knowing full well Envy is not the cheapest chump in town, but well worth the extra..... Suddenly, 1 new commercial job has turned into 1 + 4 more. We all love and relish this type of growth...

Things go great for a good while. Everyone is happy and making money. Then comes along a $2 per hour increase in minimum wage. Of course at first, all three employees are ecstatic about the $2 raise. But behind closed doors, Mom&Pop are beginning to struggle due to the fact they now have to pay those 3, snd several more employees $2 more per hour. So while $2 doesn't seem like enough of an increase to help or hurt anyone except those on the receiving end... that $2 per hour sure does multiply.

Over time, Mom&Pop start to see a decline in their bottom line and something's got to be done in order to correct it. Either they have to streamline operations and cut personal corners or risk a price increase. So rather than change their lifestyle a bit and soak up more personally or streamline and begin to let employees go, they try the price increase first.

The price increase does little to repair the bottom line, because in return they saw an equal slump in sales. So time to streamline. As much as they hate to do it, they have to cut the least productive guy first... and you guessed it, Old Timer gets the Axe. He then has a hard time finding new part time employment because he's hard pressed to find someone willing to pay a senior the new, higher minimum wage. So Old Timer completes the current contract for Envy's services. But in the spring, he's still had no luck finding work. He can no longer afford the luxury of Envy's services and will likely have to resort to managing his free time to care for his own lawn during the cooler times of the day.

As time goes on and things get tighter for Mom&Pop, things slow more and more. Their personal income suffers and the slowing effect frees up more and more of their time. Eventually, one by one, the Mom&Pop's related accounts begin to fall by the way-side. Either they resume doing it themselves, or have to seek cheaper means to cut corners...

Now all the sudden, things that seemed unimportant to Envy and the Green Industry, like minimum wage increases, exported jobs and cheap imported goods are hitting home. The moral of the story is... just because you think... "my job can't be exported" or "cheaper imported goods only benefit me" or "I already pay way more than the minimum wage" .... does not mean you should turn a blind eye and deaf ear to this just because you think... "Who cares? It doesn't effect me!" .... because eventually it does, eventually.

So turn off the nightly news for once. Open your eyes to what is going on around you, in YOUR city, YOUR state, YOUR country, and come to your own conclusion for once, instead of letting the media tell you what to believe is good for your and your fellow Americans....

ENVY FOR PRESIDENT 2008
The new "GREEN" party

SpudsM15
10-16-2004, 12:36 PM
Now really what would raising the min wage do? Personally I think it will make an already bad problem worse. Businesses will resort to illegal labor, I've worked for 2 biz's with illegal labor, i was getting 7 an hour them getting 5, after taxs i was getting around 5 bones an hour.... So what is going to happen businesses will start to pay their workers cash... to cut their payroll taxes. . Saving them money....
What does this mean less income for the federal and state spending...
What needs to be done is all illegal workers need to be eliminated hence reducing the supply of cheap labor causing a greater demand, hence raising pay..

Now this one guy I used to work with he'se legal but he has at lest 10 friends that live in his house that are illegal, all of which are trying to get their citizenship in some form or another... I think the figure is something like 2-3 trillion $ are sent south now thats just south, I wonder how much that number truly is?
Min wage is not a solution, Cutting taxs is the only solution, now Bush just needs to control his spending I looked at his budget for 05' on the gop website, He'se starting to control his spending habits.
And as far as kerry is concern wrong war wrong time wrong place talk, as far as I'm concerned the towers fell the first time they were attacked in the 90's....
Iraq had no connections to 9/11 but they did support attacking our allie Israel...
I know 3 people that died on 9/11 and we cannot take the pre 9/11 attitude anymore!
So that in my view justifies the 200bil spent on this war. And kerry keeps saying bush took his eye off of osama thats not true the start of the iraq war 9k troops in afgan by the end of the proclaimed fighting in iraq there was 10k troops in afgan. This came directly out of Gen. Tommy Franks mouth...
I'm sorry I went a little out of context but all in all raising min wage is no where near the answer....
Oh and i was effected by one of the tax cuts bush pushed through, my investments i'm getting taxed 2% less on my dividends, and i've only been in biz for 2 years so you can imagine how much money I make. Tax breaks for the rich eh....

Envy Lawn Service
10-16-2004, 12:46 PM
SpudsM15,

You'll love this quote then....

Wrong RAISE, wrong time, wrong place!

In today's economy anyways...


Don't even get me started on the tax cut issue..... LOL...

oneandonlyjojo
10-16-2004, 01:31 PM
People that have minimum wage jobs rarely do it for a living. Most of the people my age (15-17 years old) take minimum wage jobs for a buck or two during the summer.

GET OUT OF wisconsin millions of people live off minimum wage. but those are people dont care about grass or never see neighborhoods like some of you guys cut ever.

out4now
10-16-2004, 01:55 PM
Kerry wants to raise the minimum wage and then turn around and raise taxes on individuals and small businesses. IOW, give a little and take a lot. I agree with ENVY, it's only going to hurt small businesses. With his plan we loose twice.

You obviously did not watch the debates or go to his website. He will roll back the tax cut on the wealthy and give tax relief to the middle class. Businesses have always had to bear more tax burden than individuals but depending on how you are set up it may help. Taxes are different for sole propritors, S types and corporations. I will hurt this industry because the consumer has no idea of the costs associated with the business. I'd worry less about the taxes though and start worrying more about oil and fuel costs. That will put you out of business faster. It's an everyday expense that has gotten really out of control.

LwnmwrMan22
10-16-2004, 02:44 PM
If you're going to raise the minimum wage, why not at LEAST raise it to above poverty level?

Kerry always says that the single mom, with 2 kids cannot make a living. $7 / hour isn't there, the number is right about $10 / hour, for a 40 hour week, to be at or just slightly above poverty level.

Now, you raise it to $10 / hour, everyone's out of poverty. Everyone's happy. Not only that, but why stop at $10 / hour, why not $20 or $40 / hour, wouldn't that make people happier?? Just think of all the people that would get raises.

Too bad the 2.99 product at Wal-Mart would now cost 12.99. OR, as has been previously stated, all the jobs are out of the country, everyone's on unemployment, and no one has any money, our economy is toast.

out4now
10-16-2004, 02:52 PM
If you increase the min wage too much inflation will erode all of the benefit. Single moms get a thousand dollar tax beenfit per kid under Bush but don't get any other break because they aren't married.

Envy Lawn Service
10-16-2004, 03:33 PM
Single moms get a thousand dollar tax beenfit per kid under Bush but don't get any other break because they aren't married.
Wrong... they can most likely claim "head of household" and the "earned income credit" also, because they are NOT married...

All Bush did was tone down the marriage PENALTY, as it was referred to.

Envy Lawn Service
10-16-2004, 03:45 PM
You obviously did not watch the debates or go to his website. He will roll back the tax cut on the wealthy and give tax relief to the middle class. Businesses have always had to bear more tax burden than individuals but depending on how you are set up it may help. Taxes are different for sole propritors, S types and corporations. I will hurt this industry because the consumer has no idea of the costs associated with the business. I'd worry less about the taxes though and start worrying more about oil and fuel costs. That will put you out of business faster. It's an everyday expense that has gotten really out of control.


If you increase the min wage too much inflation will erode all of the benefit.
See now.... I told you not to get me started on the tax cut.... LOL

Just right here you have contradicted your own self, and by doing so, admitted the truth. Here's why...

Rolling back tax cut on the rich (they still pay more by the way) would do zero to help the economy. Why? Because the rich people, like it or not are the ones who help drive inflation and the economy. Why? Because they own the companies that produce the goods and services we purchase... that's why.

Let's not be foolish here. The rich didn't get rich by being dumb. Therefore, you could raise taxes on the rich all you want. It would help nothing but drive up inflation. Yeah that's right. They are rich, and they are going to stay that way. No they will not stand for a cut in their bottom line! What will they do? Call the actuary and say "tell me how much we are going to have to increase prices to level out and maintain our bottom line after tax profits."

Prices will go up, employee raises will be held back, benefit packages will be reduced... whatever it takes to maintain their bottom line.

So the bottom line is... any type of tax INCREASE only hurts the poor man.

rbeitz
10-16-2004, 03:59 PM
If you increase the min wage too much inflation will erode all of the benefit. Single moms get a thousand dollar tax benefit per kid under Bush but don't get any other break because they aren't married.

It's hard to give tax breaks to people that don't pay ANY taxes. If your example is truly a low income single mother I submit to you that she pays ZERO taxes. Plus she gets a child tax credit and an earned income tax credit.

I do the taxes for relatives of mine. A family of 4 making $29K per year. Not a lot of money but they get by just fine. They pay zero in federal taxes plus they got the child credits and the EIC in effect raising their income nearly $33K. (Less the social security deductions). Also they get all of the PA state income tax back because in PA a family of 4 making less than $30K owes $0 taxes.

I am sick and tired of people spewing the tax cuts only benefit the rich bullsh$t!!

steve122
10-16-2004, 08:51 PM
Look guys, I just don't get this idea. Say your a solo operator doing great work and making a good living making the magic 60$ per hour and you now want to expand. So you want to hire some help and pay them,well, min wage yet charge your customer that same magic 60 an hour? for the labor of someone else that you pay so much less for. No wonder people bict*h about how much it costs to mow a lawn. To me, min wage has to to be the min it takes to provide a living for the person doing the labor. Don't get me wrong here, as I'm not saying min wage has to support a family, but it should support the person doing the work that's being charged for, otherwise it's not really a min wage....holly shi*t I'm having a flashback to my hippie days! awwww ;) "Power to the people, right on". Guess I'll never be a proper capitalist! Hi mom :waving:
Amen, Amen, Amen brother. I've seen too many single moms or two parent families where the main bread winner loses the good job and they have to go to Mikey D's or Wally world and work for minimum to try and put food on the table and pay the rent and the utilities. Can't be done. Old hippie here also. Less government programs and tax cuts for the big companies and more programs that will help the average worker make ends meet.

GroundKprs
10-17-2004, 02:46 AM
What is the minimum wage for? It was a part of Fair Labor Standards Act in 1938, and has been added to and modified over the years. First minimum wage was 25¢ an hour. It was to require a decent pay for workers in regulated industries.

But how do you evaluate the minimum wage? When I entered the workplace full time in the mid 1960s, mimimum wage was $1.25 an hour. That hour's work would buy 4.3 boxes of breakfast cereal (at 29¢ a box). Today 4.3 boxes of braekfast cereal (cheap stuff at $3 a box) would cost would cost $12.90, so shouldn't minimum wage be near $12-$13 an hour?

Bought a functional new family car in 1964 for $2000; had to work 1600 hours at $1.25 to pay for it. Today similar bare bones car costs around $20,000. If I was to work 1600 hours to pay that car off, I'd need to make $12.50 an hour.

So minimum wage today is less than half what it should be just to keep even with the 1960s. And people whine about it rising from the $5 range?

Soupy
10-17-2004, 03:09 AM
My concern is that it will cause inflation to raise with it. Also, even though we don't pay minimum wage. what happens when the jobs that pay $7/hr now have to raise their wages to 9$ to compete with the $2 raise in minimum wage. What is that going to do to the LCO's paying $10/hr for starting laborers?

Example, say I pay an employee $10/hr to start and the convenient store chain pays $7/hr. Now that is a $3 bonus for a guy to give up a chance to work inside the AC and come work for me in the more labor intensive heat. When the minimum wage goes up, the convenient store might very well raise their wage because they want to offer an incentive to work for them. So, now they are up to $9/hr. Will I get a good worker to come work for $10/hr when he can make a little less and have a gravy job. I don't think so. So now I have to raise my wage to $12 to stay at $3 ahead of the gravy job. To cover these cost we all have to raise our price while at the same time not only did our payroll go up but so did the products we bought at the convenient store.

I think that if you want to stay above poverty then you should educate yourself and work hard to get the higher paying jobs. Nobody makes a person work at a minimum wage job. I read on lawnsite all the time how people don't want to show up for work to make $8-$10/hr. Well let the so called hard working minimum wage earning come have these jobs.

GroundKprs
10-17-2004, 07:05 AM
Sorry, Soupy. This has been the arguement against minimum wage increases forever. But when it is increased, there is has never been the disaster that small business always preaches. Most small businessmen are too small minded - they can't see the big picture, only their own pocketbooks. A minimum wage increase puts more earned income at workers' disposal, and has always boosted business in the past.

The 7 years since the last min wage increase is only beaten by the '81-'90 lapse, when cost of living jumped 44% with no min wage adjustment. Of course, that was the "Reagonomics" years, when the concentration of wealth was so well set up in this country.

SpudsM15
10-17-2004, 11:32 AM
Raising min wage is not the answer we shouldn't even need it...
If there was no illegal labor there would be less of a supply of workers creating a greater demand for workers! Simple business principle.... Now if all our jobs were held by tax paying citizens there would be plenty of tax revenue, and yes in nyc they used to give houseing to illegals!!!! who did this houseing get paid for ny tax payers!
This is the true root of the labor wage problem.
Immegrating to the US is fairly expensive so theres more revenue for the gov!!!!
THe more tax payers they have the less each and every person has to pay!
The top 25% of wage earners in this country, I beleive make up 80% of our fed tax income!!!!! People making over 250k get taxed 50%+!!!!!!!
Oh and lets bring in drugs from canada!!! what is that my friends??? OUTSOURCING!
My g/f mother works for merck! 2000people got laid off! her group of 100 researchers got moved to another area!
Think about what this would do to american workers. 2 family reletives work for schering plough which is already struggling to stay in biz...
Now also I was driving by the johnson& johnson site and there were 5 guys cutting this huge patch of grass!

qualitylandscaping
10-17-2004, 02:12 PM
I pay my guys $10-18 per hour so it won't have an affect on me.. :drinkup:

Soupy
10-17-2004, 04:48 PM
I pay my guys $10-18 per hour so it won't have an affect on me.. :drinkup:

It will effect you in one way or another. Do you still live at home with your parents? There is a whole other world that you have not seen at the age of 17. I had no worries at that age and later realized that life is totally different when you get older and have responsibilities. It's more then just spending money now. It's life or death?

Don't take this as a slam on you, I think you will do great in life. I just think that there is things that you have yet to learn.

Now I have to get ready to watch the Cradinal game :drinkup: . Talk to you later.

cmoore
10-17-2004, 07:49 PM
I've read this entire thread and think some of you guy's are making this a little too dramatic.

Not one single person has mentioned cost outs. When the little ma and pa diner has to pay a whole $2 per hour extra then it's time to look at ways to improve their efficiency. They spend $1500 on a new dishwasher that will allow them to reduce labor hours. They rearrange tables to squeeze 4 extra people in at lunchtime. Hell they may need to make each burger a half an ounce smaller to save on the meat costs. If the profit margin at that diner is that low then IMO they would be driven out of business sometime in the future anyway. They probably can't afford heath care and they could be forced to sell because of a serious illness in the future.

I know a lot about cost outs because of my job. I am one of the lazy overpaid union workers that many of you on here despise. So far my company (a 10 billion dollar company) has tried everything they can to get rid of my plant because of the wages. The fact that we are by far the most profitable factory they have (over 170 factories in 20 + countries) doesn't matter to them. They don't look at the big picture of being efficient and profitable. They only see the $25 per hour wage and freak out. My plant went from 530 people three years ago to 330 today. Those 200 jobs are now in Oklahoma, North Carolina, and Mexico paying between $2 and $12 per hour. Even with half the wages and worse benefits they still can't come close to matching our productivity. The CEO of my lovely company has been compensated $35 million dollars the past two years while outsourcing every job he could overseas. I love America!

Sorry for the rant.

TheMom
10-17-2004, 08:53 PM
I love America!

Me too! It's the best country on the planet and we are SO fortunate to have been born here. :cool:

sniggly
10-17-2004, 09:16 PM
Get a grip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The wage....whether minimum or otherwise......should be determined by the qualifications and work ethic of the employee you hire............FRICKING PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And get this............IT AIN'T YOUR JOB!!!!!!!!!! It's the EMPLOYERS job. Yeah that's right.......the rich bastard all you lazy s**t heads can't stand. He/she was the one that had the balls to do it not you!The employee is merely someone hired to perform the FUNCTIONS of the job.

Rich people are rich because they continue to do the things that made them rich (excluding the Paris Hilton types and Mrs. "I got your balls" Kerry). Poor people are poor because they continue to do the things that make them poor.

Those of you that think government intervention is the answer lose sight of the fact that our REPUBLIC runs on a capitalistic economy. On the most purified fundamental level that means NO ONE but the consumer controls market conditions.

Jesus Christ Please............make sure I am something really stupid in my next life....like an A-cup bra or something.

qualitylandscaping
10-18-2004, 12:30 AM
It will effect you in one way or another. Do you still live at home with your parents? There is a whole other world that you have not seen at the age of 17. I had no worries at that age and later realized that life is totally different when you get older and have responsibilities. It's more then just spending money now. It's life or death?

Don't take this as a slam on you, I think you will do great in life. I just think that there is things that you have yet to learn.

Now I have to get ready to watch the Cradinal game :drinkup: . Talk to you later.

I still live at home for now. I just turned 18, and builders/banks will start taking me seriously. I'm working with a builder right now to have a house started in the spring of '05.

But anyway, I know I have alot to learn. That is part of the reason I am a member of Lawnsite!

Soupy
10-18-2004, 04:21 AM
I still live at home for now. I just turned 18, and builders/banks will start taking me seriously. I'm working with a builder right now to have a house started in the spring of '05.

But anyway, I know I have alot to learn. That is part of the reason I am a member of Lawnsite!

Cool, so you are old enough to vote now. I hope you registered for your voting card or plan on doing it will soon.

qualitylandscaping
10-18-2004, 09:21 AM
Cool, so you are old enough to vote now. I hope you registered for your voting card or plan on doing it will soon.

The registration deadline was October 8th. You have to be 18 to register. And my birthday was October 10th.. :realmad:

Precision
10-18-2004, 10:57 AM
Sorry, Soupy. This has been the arguement against minimum wage increases forever. But when it is increased, there is has never been the disaster that small business always preaches. Most small businessmen are too small minded - they can't see the big picture, only their own pocketbooks. A minimum wage increase puts more earned income at workers' disposal, and has always boosted business in the past.

The 7 years since the last min wage increase is only beaten by the '81-'90 lapse, when cost of living jumped 44% with no min wage adjustment. Of course, that was the "Reagonomics" years, when the concentration of wealth was so well set up in this country.

Thank you Groundkprs. Small minded, lacking of vision or whatever. When I was a lowly college student, I worked at Sears ringing up tools. They hired me in at $.50 over minimum. I don't remember the exact amount I made. But I do remember that 2 months later minimum wage went up by $.35. I got no raise to adjust me up. So it had zero effect on Sears, my pocket, prices at Sears.

I currently have no employees. But I am not even considering trying to hire anyone for less than $8.00/ hr. And I plan on giving incentive raises based on skills and performance, up to $2.00 per hour within 6 months. You want to keep help, pay them. If you can't afford to pay them, then charge more or cut expenses or both.

Any change will cause some people to go under. That is a fact. A good one. Darwinism is a perfectly natural method. Justmowing comes into your neighborhood, you get more efficient, find your niche, get bigger, focus on things he doesn't do, or go under. I see no problem with that. I/WE have no gauranted right to do business. Someone else has a better, cheaper product shame on us.

Same with minumum wage. If we are the equivalent of slum lords and very inefficient, we need to be culled.

Causes inflation my rear end. How is a $7.00 an hour person going to bid up the demand on anything. The total amount of money generated by these wage earners is minimal and has very little velocity. Velocity of money and were it is spent has much more effect.

Soupy
10-18-2004, 04:19 PM
I currently have no employees. But I am not even considering trying to hire anyone for less than $8.00/ hr. And I plan on giving incentive raises based on skills and performance, up to $2.00 per hour within 6 months. You want to keep help, pay them. If you can't afford to pay them, then charge more or cut expenses or both.

I would not imagine paying anyone less then that. When you get employees you will understand that even with minimum wage were it is now that you won't be able to keep good workers at those wages.

I start guys out at $10/hr but it is still hard to get them to show up for work. I do work them hard and our routes are so tight there is no windshield time. So we are working pretty much non stop the whole day.

You said that it won't raise prices on things we buy, but then you say that if you can't afford to pay them more, then charge more. Which is it?

Soupy
10-18-2004, 04:27 PM
[QUOTE=Precision]Thank you Groundkprs. Small minded, lacking of vision or whatever. When I was a lowly college student, I worked at Sears ringing up tools. They hired me in at $.50 over minimum. I don't remember the exact amount I made. But I do remember that 2 months later minimum wage went up by $.35. I got no raise to adjust me up. So it had zero effect on Sears, my pocket, prices at Sears.[QUOTE]

I had the same experience when minimum wage went from $3.35 to $4.25. I was earning $450/hr at the time which was $1.10 over minimum wage. When minimum wage went to $425 and none of got raises to compensate. We all found new jobs. This is were my concerns come from. I felt like all my raises and hard work was just flushed the toilet. So the companies paying just over minimum wage now will have to raise their wages or risk the loss of trained employees. I guess they could send the jobs overseas.

This my friend is going to effect us all.

sniggly
10-18-2004, 04:44 PM
Help me out here.....Are you drawing a parallel between direct government intervention in a free market economy where the consumer drives the 'boat'.... and Darwinism?

My instinct is to snicker a little......seems like a quantum leap in logic. Being 'culled' as you put it should be up to the consumer meaning, if you charge real low and give real bad service you get culled.

The government shouldn't tell you what to pay someone. What you pay should be determined by what the worker is willing to work for and what you think he is worth (whether that means paying by your standards or his).

T Edwards
10-18-2004, 07:29 PM
In 1972 I went to work for the current minimum wage, which was $1.65/hour. Soon after that Congress passed a motion to raise the min. wage to $1.85, and according to the newspapers and TV the sky was falling and it would surely be the end of business expansion in this country.

The economy has grown by leaps and bounds ever since and the minimum wage is now up 340% in the last 30 years.

Your fears are unfounded.........

grasswhacker
10-18-2004, 08:21 PM
In 1972 I went to work for the current minimum wage, which was $1.65/hour. Soon after that Congress passed a motion to raise the min. wage to $1.85, and according to the newspapers and TV the sky was falling and it would surely be the end of business expansion in this country.

The economy has grown by leaps and bounds ever since and the minimum wage is now up 340% in the last 30 years.

Your fears are unfounded.........

I would not use the 70s as an example of business expansion to support your argument. The 70s were a decade of hyper inflation that caused the economy and markets into recession until the Reagan tax cuts. It was called "economic malaise"

http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/regs/minimum/50years.htm

Envy Lawn Service
10-18-2004, 08:38 PM
Dang right.... the 70's.... the birthplace of hyper inflation and where it all really started to go wrong.


Aside from that, there is a heck of a lot of difference between 20 cents and 2 dollars.
Plus you have to consider todays economy.

sniggly
10-18-2004, 08:46 PM
Thanks for posting that.........It kept me from having to do it.

:drinkup:

DennisF
10-18-2004, 09:36 PM
Get a grip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The wage....whether minimum or otherwise......should be determined by the qualifications and work ethic of the employee you hire............FRICKING PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And get this............IT AIN'T YOUR JOB!!!!!!!!!! It's the EMPLOYERS job. Yeah that's right.......the rich bastard all you lazy s**t heads can't stand. He/she was the one that had the balls to do it not you!The employee is merely someone hired to perform the FUNCTIONS of the job.

Rich people are rich because they continue to do the things that made them rich (excluding the Paris Hilton types and Mrs. "I got your balls" Kerry). Poor people are poor because they continue to do the things that make them poor.

Those of you that think government intervention is the answer lose sight of the fact that our REPUBLIC runs on a capitalistic economy. On the most purified fundamental level that means NO ONE but the consumer controls market conditions.

Jesus Christ Please............make sure I am something really stupid in my next life....like an A-cup bra or something.


I'd say he has already granted your wish in this life!

grass-scapes
10-19-2004, 08:50 PM
Look guys, I just don't get this idea. Say your a solo operator doing great work and making a good living making the magic 60$ per hour and you now want to expand. So you want to hire some help and pay them,well, min wage yet charge your customer that same magic 60 an hour? for the labor of someone else that you pay so much less for. No wonder people bict*h about how much it costs to mow a lawn. To me, min wage has to to be the min it takes to provide a living for the person doing the labor. Don't get me wrong here, as I'm not saying min wage has to support a family, but it should support the person doing the work that's being charged for, otherwise it's not really a min wage....holly shi*t I'm having a flashback to my hippie days! awwww ;) "Power to the people, right on". Guess I'll never be a proper capitalist! Hi mom :waving:

If this were the case, then minimum wage would be different for everybody. Someone with no bills and a crap car and crap apartment can make it on less than someone with 40 grand on credit cards, new suv and a palace.

mastercare
10-20-2004, 03:14 PM
Capitalism at its best, there should be no minimum wage at ALL! Let's assume that nobody is hiring illeagals because minimum wage can't be applied to somebody who is not legit anyways...

What ever happened to Free markets that capitalism is based on? Free market theory says that people will take the jobs where they are best paid. So, why should I worry if someone out there is only making $5.15. You can flip burgers for $7, you can cut grass for $10. Naturally, these people will be taking the better paying jobs. Employees will hire them if they can do the higher paying job proficiently. This leaves the min wage employer without employees...it forces him to raise his wages to get more workers....thereby eliminating the need for a minimum.


Bottom line:
Employers will have to pay the market price for the labor they're searching for without any minimum laws.

Employees will search for the best paying jobs.

People who work for $5/hr. are probably only worth $5/hr if they're not out there looking for something better.

Only the best will be paid the best.

Supply and demand will determine wages. The law doesn't need to. Take somebody who's a slacker and a lousy worker....nobody paying $15/hr would hire him...but the $5/hr guy might. If he's lousy, then that's what he deserves. If he gets good at something, he'll be hired at a better rate.

---That was a lot of "bottom lines!"

Just one more piece of government control....supply and demand have worked fine for years....and our taxes didn't pay for it.

Precision
10-20-2004, 04:37 PM
The reason for a minimum wage is to protect those workers who can be coerced, threatened, pressured into working for a wage that will not feed them.

It is to stop the scumbags amoung us business owners from creating indentured servitude type situations. I can beat my sub human worker and tie him up when he is done working and pay him $3.00 per hour, but charge him for his meals at $1.00 each and charge him $5 per day to use my tools. You get the idea. I think there is an old country song about that and how the coal mines used to do that.

Minimum wage should have almost no effect on all but the most base of jobs. Our profession requires some semblance of skill, so the resulting scarcity of employees bids up the wage.

Yes supply and demand determine wages, but in some jobs, the skill level is so minute and turnover impossible to slow, the company pays as little as it can. And unfortunately, the people who will accept that kind of job are in no position to leverage themselves into something better. This coupled with a scumbag owner/boss creates an opportunity for exploitation. All the minimum wage does is reduce that exploitation and make it a criminal offense to pay less than that.

As far as killing off the small business, hasn't happened yet. Small business is still the largest driver of job creation in the country and I think we have had a few increases in the minimum since its inception.

lawncutr
10-20-2004, 05:23 PM
The minimum wage is not all that bad....capitialism is king, but it has no compassion, minimum wage laws were made during the era of the industrial revolution. I don't like the idea of having to pay workers more, but how many of you can actually say that our prices have risen dramatically over the past few years to keep up with inflation. $25-$30 for a residential lawn 7-10k...was the price almost 10 years ago. This may be an excuse as is the gas prices to raise the rates a little more.

Kerry ain't for increased taxes on small companies only the rich. He has a program that is catered to giving loans and other capital to start and grow small companies...sounds great. (I am not a Kerry supporter) Sounds good, but doubtful that he can actually pull it off with a hostile Congress.

Soupy
10-20-2004, 05:40 PM
The minimum wage is not all that bad....capitialism is king, but it has no compassion, minimum wage laws were made during the era of the industrial revolution. I don't like the idea of having to pay workers more, but how many of you can actually say that our prices have risen dramatically over the past few years to keep up with inflation. $25-$30 for a residential lawn 7-10k...was the price almost 10 years ago. This may be an excuse as is the gas prices to raise the rates a little more.

Kerry ain't for increased taxes on small companies only the rich. He has a program that is catered to giving loans and other capital to start and grow small companies...sounds great. (I am not a Kerry supporter) Sounds good, but doubtful that he can actually pull it off with a hostile Congress.

Yes, the cost of operating a LCO has went up big time. Insurance, equipment, and gas has all doubled in the last 10 years. While the prices for service has stayed very close to the same.

Bush has already increased loans/programs for small business.

DennisF
10-20-2004, 06:02 PM
Historically, raises in the minimum wage have had little or no effect on jobs or business. People who study these things have concluded that economic activity changes very little when the minimum wage has been raised.

I don't think it will have any effect on our business since most LCO's with employees pay well above minimum wage anyway.

Just to put things in perspective. Had the minimum wage been indexed to inflation, it would have risen from $1.60 in 1968 to $8.46 in 2003.

dkeisala
10-20-2004, 06:19 PM
Federal minimum wage is what, $5.15/hr? When is the last time you worked for that little? I've been working for 23 years and I've NEVER made that small amount of money per hour.

nelbuts
10-20-2004, 10:24 PM
Ok say u are paying someone $8 per hour now. Then the "socialized government set pay scale" increases to $7 per hour. Did your current employee just now receive a cut compared to his hourly rate prior to the increase? Of course the employee did and should be increased by the same amount. Now the consumer will pay for that increase or at least they should. Personally I think there should be no "socialized government set pay scale" and the market should dictate the wages.

lawnman_scott
10-20-2004, 10:41 PM
Who thinks this will go away, only to come back in 2008, then in 2012, then 2016..... Its such an irrelevant issue. What % of minimum wage earners vote anyway? Its just for sound bites to make the guy against it look mean and like he wants families to starve. And the effect would be so minimal anyway.

Envy Lawn Service
10-20-2004, 10:51 PM
Yeah, you LCO's have to be friggin loopy if you don't think this will effect you.
Why? Because your guy can quit you, go down the street to a grocery store chain, to an air conditioned/heated, much less physically demanding job, with benefits, and still make a better annual salary, even with the hourly pay cut.

Here's how the math works for my situation...

$10hr x 40hrs = $400wk x 36wks = $14,400 annual, no benefits, working for me.
or
$7hr x 40hrs = $280wk x 52wks = $14,560 annual, with benefits, working for Piggly-Wiggly

lawnman_scott
10-20-2004, 11:11 PM
Yeah, you LCO's have to be friggin loopy if you don't think this will effect you.
Why? Because your guy can quit you, go down the street to a grocery store chain, to an air conditioned/heated, much less physically demanding job, with benefits, and still make a better annual salary, even with the hourly pay cut.

Here's how the math works for my situation...

$10hr x 40hrs = $400wk x 36wks = $14,400 annual, no benefits, working for me.
or
$7hr x 40hrs = $280wk x 52wks = $14,560 annual, with benefits, working for Piggly-Wiggly
Dont they get unemployment working for you? We work year round here so that doesnt come into play. Even so, most lawn guys arent grocery store material.

Envy Lawn Service
10-20-2004, 11:24 PM
Dont they get unemployment working for you? We work year round here so that doesnt come into play. Even so, most lawn guys arent grocery store material.
No, because I do not utilize employees...
Pitiful what they would draw from the ESC and the hoops they must jump through.
I'd say, on average, there's not too many running year-round full staff.
So the majority of lawn laborers would have to second guess their situation, sweating their butts off for less than a minimum wage annual salary and no benefits.

Soupy
10-21-2004, 01:28 AM
Ok say u are paying someone $8 per hour now. Then the "socialized government set pay scale" increases to $7 per hour. Did your current employee just now receive a cut compared to his hourly rate prior to the increase? Of course the employee did and should be increased by the same amount. Now the consumer will pay for that increase or at least they should. Personally I think there should be no "socialized government set pay scale" and the market should dictate the wages.

That is what I am worried about. You almost have to jump up the pay scale for all workers that make $7-12/hr. The guy making $7/hr now isn't going to be happy that he was just knocked down to minimum wage. just like when minimum wage went from $3.35 to $4.25/hr. 4 years earlier I started my first job and made $3.35 an hour and finally worked up to a whole $4.50/hr. When the increase went to $4.25/hr I along with all other employees did not get a raise so we all quit. Granted we didn't just all walk out, but over a period of one year most had quit.

I think most employers will want to keep their employees that are now making $7/hr and will have to give them a raise when the time comes. Now this raise might put them at $8-$9 per hour which will create a competition for workers between us and them.

Even if it doesn't effect our employees that start at $10/hr. It will cause inflation to rise for a lot of products that are made by minimum wage workers. It will also increase the demand to send jobs overseas.

It will also give immigrants more reason to cross our borders for work.

I agree with all the people that say the market should dictate wages. And if you think this is not going to effect you then you better think twice.

GroundKprs
10-21-2004, 12:02 PM
Geez, same scare type arguements used against increase of minimum wage - have heard them for over 35 years every time a min wage increase comes up.

And these arguements have been shown to be false after each increase! :sleeping:

ALarsh
10-21-2004, 06:14 PM
Think about how many MORE jobs are going to go over seas if minimum wage does get raised to $7/hour.

Envy Lawn Service
10-21-2004, 08:45 PM
Think about how many MORE jobs are going to go over seas if minimum wage does get raised to $7/hour.
Bingo... Yup... That too... And you would be surprised at how many jobs in these manufacturing plants here in NC pay $7 or less an hour.

dkeisala
10-21-2004, 08:56 PM
Think about how many MORE jobs are going to go over seas if minimum wage does get raised to $7/hour.

So because the average person in India makes like 10 grand a year, that should dictate our minimum wage? Isn't that kinda like comparing apples and oranges?

Soupy
10-21-2004, 09:04 PM
Think about how many MORE jobs are going to go over seas if minimum wage does get raised to $7/hour.

Alarsh, I'm glad a 15 yr old pays attention to what is going on in the world. You are giving me reasons to think twice before jumping on you young grass cutters.

dkeisala
10-21-2004, 09:05 PM
Bingo... Yup... That too... And you would be surprised at how many jobs in these manufacturing plants here in NC pay $7 or less an hour.

So does Wal-Mart - so we should keep the minimum wage low because I don't want to pay more than 3 cents for a pencil and in order to sell that pencil to me for 3 cents Wal-Mart goes to China and pays some kid 10 cents an hour rather than an American factory worker $17 dollars an hour to produce pencils. Same pencil, lower cost. What ever happened to Made in America? We are a nation of consumers, pretty soon we won't produce anything but ideas. How scary is that? How long can it last?

Is it us consumers who are at fault or minimum wage that is at fault? Or does it even matter?

Soupy
10-21-2004, 09:07 PM
So because the average person in India makes like 10 grand a year, that should dictate our minimum wage? Isn't that kinda like comparing apples and oranges?

I was wondering how many of the equipment manufacturers pay a portion of their workers under $10 per hour. I think I remember hearing Briggs&Stanton was in financial trouble. I wonder how this will effect them?

lawnman_scott
10-21-2004, 09:27 PM
No, because I do not utilize employees...
Pitiful what they would draw from the ESC and the hoops they must jump through.
I'd say, on average, there's not too many running year-round full staff.
So the majority of lawn laborers would have to second guess their situation, sweating their butts off for less than a minimum wage annual salary and no benefits.
Or maybe its just that you didnt think it out very clearly. They get unemployment, and whatever "hoops" they have to jump through, they will. They have to look for a job, immagine that.

ALarsh
10-21-2004, 09:30 PM
So does Wal-Mart - so we should keep the minimum wage low because I don't want to pay more than 3 cents for a pencil and in order to sell that pencil to me for 3 cents Wal-Mart goes to China and pays some kid 10 cents an hour rather than an American factory worker $17 dollars an hour to produce pencils. Same pencil, lower cost. What ever happened to Made in America? We are a nation of consumers, pretty soon we won't produce anything but ideas. How scary is that? How long can it last?

Is it us consumers who are at fault or minimum wage that is at fault? Or does it even matter?

You do have a good point.

Say you are the owner of Bic, a pen manufacturer. You make your standard Bic pens in the U.S for 35 cents a piece. You sell your pens to Wal-Mart for 75 cents a piece, thus giving you a 40 cent profit per pen. You consider your options of moving over seas. After more research you find out that you can manufacture your Bic pens in China for 15 cents a piece rather than 35 cents a piece, making a 60 cent profit per pen. Do you stay in America, make significantly less money and keep the "Made in America" slogan that nobody really cares about when school supply shopping comes around?

If you were in the above position, I guarantee you will go over seas to put more money in your pocket.

Please note that I have no idea what Bic manufactures/sells their pens for. This is just an example.

Soupy
10-21-2004, 09:39 PM
So does Wal-Mart - so we should keep the minimum wage low because I don't want to pay more than 3 cents for a pencil and in order to sell that pencil to me for 3 cents Wal-Mart goes to China and pays some kid 10 cents an hour rather than an American factory worker $17 dollars an hour to produce pencils. Same pencil, lower cost. What ever happened to Made in America? We are a nation of consumers, pretty soon we won't produce anything but ideas. How scary is that? How long can it last?

Is it us consumers who are at fault or minimum wage that is at fault? Or does it even matter?

I don't shop at Wal-Mart. Did they do away with their policy of only selling products made in America?

I think the thing to do is just not buy products from companies that you know are sending jobs overseas. I don't necessarily mean don't ever buy a foreign product. But for an American base company to send work overseas is worse then maybe buying a Honda.