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SystemXpert
10-20-2004, 03:35 PM
Ok,

I was all ready to go traditional chemical lawn care route, when I began reading about how good organics are to soil. So, I revised my program to use some organic products and bridge products low in salt & chlorine. My only problem is finding a pre-emergement that doesn't destroy all the microbes in the soil.

I found that Lesco makes a Dimension product 0-0-7M SOP. Dimension is supposed to be one of better pre-ems. So, my question is how bad is it for my soil if I do 2 applications (2 lbs/k) a year? My lawn has a history of crabgrass and weeds. I think I need to kill off the majority of weed seeds first, before I try to reply on mowing high and proper watering for weed control.

I know the Post-Emergement Herbicides & Inseciticides kill off good stuff in the soil as well as bad stuff. What about Pre-Ems?

Yes, I know I could use CGM, but research doesn't support its claims. (Please no battles about CGM effectiveness)

SystemXpert

Hamons
10-20-2004, 05:42 PM
The amin concern with pre--emergent are its root pruning effects.

Do a internet search on root pruning research. From what I've found the best to worst are -- Ronstar, Barricade, Dimension, pennnant, Pre-m. Unfortuantely -- can't use ronstar on residential lawns.

timturf
10-20-2004, 05:52 PM
what about bensulide ( betasan)? where does it fall in?
how about balan, dacthal, surflan?

Hamons
10-20-2004, 06:13 PM
not ones I researched Tim -- sorry. Just looked at the main ones I use.

However, I do know that Surflan and Balan are both DNA type herbicides which by design seem to do more root pruning then others.

timturf
10-20-2004, 06:27 PM
right on,
bensulide is between ronstar and barricade/

Is anybody using in lawncare, I used it on putting greens

Garden Panzer
10-21-2004, 12:43 PM
Can't you use SURFLAN on warm season grass?
A good thing to look into in the way rebuilding soil after aps are Humic and Fulvic acids, they even use these for oil spills- here's a good link for some pretty cheap digs:
www.humic.com
:drinkup:

timturf
10-21-2004, 02:31 PM
Used surflan on vamont bermunda fairways

Dchall_San_Antonio
11-05-2004, 10:33 PM
I was all ready to go traditional chemical lawn care route, when I began reading about how good organics are to soil. So, I revised my program to use some organic products and bridge products low in salt & chlorine. My only problem is finding a pre-emergement that doesn't destroy all the microbes in the soil.

I found that Lesco makes a Dimension product 0-0-7M SOP. Dimension is supposed to be one of better pre-ems. So, my question is how bad is it for my soil if I do 2 applications (2 lbs/k) a year? My lawn has a history of crabgrass and weeds. I think I need to kill off the majority of weed seeds first, before I try to reply on mowing high and proper watering for weed control.Crabgrass and many weeds are annuals. They must grow from new seed every year. Most annuals need sunlight and continual moisture to germinate the seeds. If you are watering deeply and infrequently, then the seeds never get the necessary continual moisture to germinate. Unfortunately Mother Nature doesn't always cooperate with this plan. But also seeds need sunlight to germinate. You could seed crabgrass into your turf but if your turf is dense enough and tall enough, the seed will not germinate. You don't need to kill the seed first. First you need to concentrate on growing the best turf you can. Then weeds will not be a problem.

Yes, I know I could use CGM, but research doesn't support its claims. (Please no battles about CGM effectiveness)
I don't think you'll get much support for a battle here. What research are you looking at?

quiet
11-06-2004, 10:24 AM
I don't think you'll get much support for a battle here. What research are you looking at?

I have to agree with SystemXpert here. Where is the research that supports CGM as having pre-m properties? The Iowa State study that I've read doesn't draw conclusions or even post a summation as I recall. And as I recall, the results show CGM's effectiveness only when used at extremely high rates, 40lbs/MSF. That's 4 lbs. of N/MSF.

I have the notion that applying any N source at 4lbs/MSF (ignoring the burn potential issue of many of the N sources) makes the turf so darn thick it's simply not allowing weed germination due to the turf density.

OK . . . and that's all well and good. And we know CGM is a high % source of WIN; again, that's great. But CGM at 40lbs/MSF is simply cost prohibitive for most comm'l app's. to sell.

You can see where I'm going. I think CGM is a great organic FERTILIZER. But where is the research that supports CGM having PREEMERGENT properties?

upidstay
11-08-2004, 05:41 PM
I have used corn gluten in the past and it was pretty effective for crabgrass. Organica.net sells it. DEFINITELY ain't cheap, but it does work and helps the soil out nicely.

Dchall_San_Antonio
11-30-2004, 03:43 PM
I have to agree with SystemXpert here. Where is the research that supports CGM as having pre-m properties? The Iowa State study that I've read doesn't draw conclusions or even post a summation as I recall. And as I recall, the results show CGM's effectiveness only when used at extremely high rates, 40lbs/MSF. That's 4 lbs. of N/MSF.

I have the notion that applying any N source at 4lbs/MSF (ignoring the burn potential issue of many of the N sources) makes the turf so darn thick it's simply not allowing weed germination due to the turf density.

OK . . . and that's all well and good. And we know CGM is a high % source of WIN; again, that's great. But CGM at 40lbs/MSF is simply cost prohibitive for most comm'l app's. to sell.

You can see where I'm going. I think CGM is a great organic FERTILIZER. But where is the research that supports CGM having PREEMERGENT properties?The research is at Iowa State. The experience is in the field. Unfortunately with the experience, how can you really tell if the stuff worked unless you leave streaks or areas where you don't use the CGM? Otherwise I agree with what you said. Cost prohibitive but a great source of protein (nitrogen).

quiet
11-30-2004, 11:58 PM
The research is inconclusive at best. And using a critical interpretation, the conclusions by ISU and the follow up study at UC-Davis state that that CGM is no more effective at weed control than fertilizing.

And someone else's field experience is not something to base a business reputation on.

I'd be the first to jump on this bandwagon if real data supported it's claims.