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View Full Version : Serious About Buying Cat262b Or Case85xt Need User Comments


silage feeder
10-21-2004, 04:35 PM
Considering both of the above machines for work on the farm to replace bobcat 645,lots of loading/rehandling and digging out muckto be done.
Really like the cat but are you paying for the name?
case is good also on paper but doesn't have the power or the dump height of the cat,but does have better ground clearance.
skidsteers a smaller market over here , the big three makers none to keen to demo on farm,but can go to their yard to try .
so please give your views.

Tigerotor77W
10-21-2004, 05:48 PM
Oh, dear... where to begin.

First, I'm a bigger Cat fan than I am a Case fan. I'll try not to let that bias me, but if I fall out of line, please keep me in check.

Okay. The 85XT and the 262B aren't really *that* comparable. Yes both are vertical lift, but the Cat ROC is rated nearly three-hundred pounds higher. The 252B would be a closer match to the 85XT. To analyze both:

The 252B is a great machine and the only real problem with it would perhaps be the frame design. Case, Deere, NH, Bobcat, and a few others have vertical lift linkages whose boom arms rest against the frame. Cat is one of the only manufacturers whose arms do not; although there is a spherical stress bearing at the rear of the machine, I'm not sure how well the boom arms resist against torquing while digging or corner loading a bucket. However, not having actually done any research on that area, I really can't say that Cat's linkage is any worse. But you mentioned heavy digging, so I would look into that.

Cat's linkage combines a radial lift path and a vertical lift path; the machine actually lifts radially outward until 70" (I believe), but after that, lifts straight up. This enables the machine to keep the load closer for digging and the such, but it also provides extra reach at, say, mid-lift (where a typical vertical-lift machine has less reach). That's an advantage in many cases; but again, it's not always the most important aspect. At maximum height, the 50 degree dump angle is nice -- but perhaps excessive. The rollback of the Cat bucket isn't exceptionally great; keep in mind that if you'll be carrying loads across long distances, you'll want a larger roll-back angle.

Visibility of the Cat to the rear is all right; the rear corners are somewhat limited by the frame design. Because the main booms are massive, raising the load will successfully block the operator's vision. At maximum height, however, every single grid is unblocked: the operator can look anywhere when the boom arms are fully raised.

Operators generally praise the control system of the Cat skids. It is refined and is generally less fatiguing than the control systems of other machines. Bobcat and Case are highly against the anti-stall feature; they claim the anti-stall feature is really anti-work (because operators cannot push the machines to near stall). However, that is pure preference and I suggest you take one out for a spin to decide for yourself.

The engines on the Cats are pretty stable ones... I wouldn't worry about not having enough power or the such. I believe Cat engines/skids run pretty quietly; Case does have a tendancy to be very loud.

You mentioned ground clearance: 9" on the Cats is pretty good. The Case does have 11" at the belly panel, yes, but the sides (chaincases) are lower (9").

Now the Case:

Case probably makes one of the most durable skid steers on the market. They are built extremely heavy and definitely have very capable hydraulic systems. The 90XT is about the same size class as the Bobcat S250 but weighs over 1,000 pounds more. If you need a burly skid steer, Case is definitely the way to go.

The Case lift-arm design most likely inspired the Bobcat lift arm design. The arms rest against the machine chassis, which allows them the chassis to absorb the stress rather than the lift arms themselves. I have not heard reports of Case lift arm fatigue; I believe everything is good with their machines.

Case claims its lift arms rise in a vertical path that maximizes reach during the entire lift cycle. (Deere, in comparison, has a lift arm that maintains the load very close to the machine but pushes it out near the top of the arc.) Someone will probably tell you along the line that this will make the machines tippy; however, when you are dealing with an 8500 pound machine whose tipping load is only 5000 pounds, you'll be okay. I wouldn't worry about the Case lift design not being "optimized" for heavy lifting. If you do bucket work, it's a damned good lift design.

Visbility out the rear is pretty good. The engine hood cover is very low and there aren't any air precleaners, so your view is pretty much unobstructed if you look straight back. However -- the boom arms on all Case models go to the top of the cab; this prevents quite a bit of rear visibility. Then again, if you don't do much backing up (lots of turning), you'll probably be fine. Visbility out the sides is good; raising the boom arms won't change too much until you're about at breaker height (the height the lift arms would be at if you were using a breaker).

The 85XT does not have two-speed travel. Its engine is somewhat underpowered for a machine of its weight, but the engine does have a LOT of torque. Once you learn its torque curve, it's entirely possible to bring the machine to a dead halt, nearly stall the engine (actually hear the engine sputter for two seconds), and bring it right back up. Very impressive.

Big three makers... they would actually be Bobcat, Case, and NH. They won't want to demo too often because all machines are pretty much similar in many respects. If Company X made a vastly superior product, they'd get much more sales. Which isn't happening to any company.

You mentioned digging. I highly suggest that if you'll be digging that you take a look at the 90XT rather than the 85XT and the S220 rather than the 262B (or 252B). Radial machines will be more oriented for digging than vertical lift; however, if you are looking at the Case, generally speaking, heavy digging can be done by both 85XT and 90XT. The 90XT is nevertheless more suited for heavy digging.

Hope that helps.

Dodgemania
10-22-2004, 09:34 PM
My brain hurts reading all that. Are you a skidloader expert or what? You know more about my machine than I do! You've done a little research huh.

Tigerotor77W
10-23-2004, 03:27 PM
Hehe... definitely not an expert. If you had some sort of maintainance/operation test for me, I'd fail it... I know how to operate them but it would take me literally fifteen minutes to load a pickup truck with a Cat 262B. :lol: I'm no operator... and have no idea how to maintain skids, either. Still a measly student...

ksss
10-30-2004, 11:43 PM
Bobcat 250 is impressive is he not.

As most always the CASE, he is very correct. The 85XT is a popular machine in some markets. I have had 11 new CASE skid steers over the years. The 85 was my least favorite. At my working elevations (5000 feet to 9000 feet), the 85 was a dog. We work our machines hard which is why we run the CASE machines. The 85 was not capable of the type of production we need. That said I have two neighbors that run feed lots that have 85's in fact one has my old one. They are happy with them. My often stated hatred of the 85 is probably what got me the opportunity to go to the CASE factory to assist with the new 75's and 85's coming out. Starting next month you will be able to order the new machines. From the 40XT on up the line 2 speed is standard. The numbers will be changed to the 400 series it sounds like. Should you decide to get an older machine as stated I would go with either a 70XT or the 90 or 95XT. You may want to wait for the new machines to be released. The 90 and 95 are two speed machines, very productive, very powerful, very well built and very heavy. Go with the Ride Control option you will thank me. But if you are in lower elevations and not working them that hard the 85 XT will last.

Tigerotor77W
12-11-2004, 12:46 AM
Test drove an old-model 90XT today... wow, that machine has power like none other! I was very impressed. I was digging in some soft, wet mud so I couldn't bog the engine as hard as I would have liked, but I did kill it three times. I had to really, really work to do so, so it's not a low-torque machine by any means. I hate to admit it, but it was actually more fun to operate than the Cats I've used... not nearly as easy to get used to (I had some problems with the controls tilted inwards), but the pleasure of really feeling the machine, bogging the engine, and bring it right back up was something the Cat didn't offer. I, um, am rethinking my skid steer loyalties... :confused:

jd270
12-11-2004, 01:44 AM
if it wasent for deere i would be running a case both deere and case are pure tanks i recently move 2,000 yrds of clay with my 270 and never killed it once runs great for a non turbo motor but i have found a non turbo motor to be easer on the oil when i check my oil on my270 i have to look closely at the dipstick since the oil stays almost clear

Tigerotor77W
12-11-2004, 10:14 AM
I think you're the second person I've "met" who hasn't had any problems with the Deere line. You've never had a hystat motor fail on you? I'm still somewhat wary of their line -- it's more worry than wary, I think, as their published numbers are astronomical. It's scary to think that a Deere has almost twice the axle torque of some of the smaller machines. And in the case of the 332, that thing is claimed to have 11,600 ft.-lbs of breakout force. Not sure how the physics of that work, in that the machine only weights 9175 lbs, but alas, it's still an imposing figure.

jd270
12-11-2004, 12:40 PM
how many skidloaders do you own when have owen one of them and have had problems then you can whine all you want to about one no ive never had any problems with mine it has been great i also have over 15 other deere tractors from 60 hp to 350 hp and have found deere to be more dependable and a lot better dealer and parts network than any other brand .around here about all you see for rentals and ownd skid loaders are deere used to be bobcats but not anymore its not that i really have anything against bobcat i used to own one it just wasent up to doing what i can with my deere adn the bobcat dealer sucked if i want an atachment i call deere and its there in no time if we want to start brand bashing i can do that to i just know alot of people around here with deeres and have had no trouble at all so i am having a hard time beliving that you have only heard from 2 satisfied deere owners i know at my deere dealer they hardly ever have any in for repair

treedoc1
12-11-2004, 04:27 PM
Who is going to be there for you? That's how you decide what brand to buy. I need prompt service because down time costs way more than who has 100# more breakout strength and who has a degree more radial arm lift.

Can I fill my dump truck, can I handle my 3500# pallets of stone, will it start every day even though it has multiple operators...that's what counts.

Each brand has small idiosyncracies but you can jump in a different one each day and still get the same job done.

p7m8
12-11-2004, 04:28 PM
I have a headache. :dizzy:

Tigerotor77W
12-12-2004, 12:31 PM
how many skidloaders do you own when have owen one of them and have had problems then you can whine all you want to about one no ive never had any problems with mine it has been great i also have over 15 other deere tractors from 60 hp to 350 hp and have found deere to be more dependable and a lot better dealer and parts network than any other brand .around here about all you see for rentals and ownd skid loaders are deere used to be bobcats but not anymore its not that i really have anything against bobcat i used to own one it just wasent up to doing what i can with my deere adn the bobcat dealer sucked if i want an atachment i call deere and its there in no time if we want to start brand bashing i can do that to i just know alot of people around here with deeres and have had no trouble at all so i am having a hard time beliving that you have only heard from 2 satisfied deere owners i know at my deere dealer they hardly ever have any in for repair

Sorry... I didn't mean to bash Deere in my post. I meant to say that I hadn't heard anything positive about them yet. Just a comment; didn't mean to offend.

You two bring up good points. Me personally; I think skid steers (with the exception of two companies) have evolved to the point where performance is almost a wash. You can get two operators, each familiar with his own machine, out in a field and as long as the two operators are equally skilled and operating loaders of similar size, the two machines will get nearly the same production. It's, as you said, servicability, maintainability, personal preference, reliability, and dealer support that really throw in the towel.

ksss
12-12-2004, 02:27 PM
Easy JD270,

Bobcat250, although he has never owned a skid steer, he is probably the most knowledgeable guy on this forum when it comes to being informed on a variety of machines. I don't know how he knows what he knows, but he knows it. The first two series of JD skid steers were GENERALLY problematic. That is a fact. Deere ag stores generally do offer good service that is also a fact. However, comparing JD tractors to their construction equipment isn't analogous. Even Deere has stepped on their &ick in the ag market, remember the 8850? Every manufacturer has had machines they would like to have done better. If your machine has run without problems, that is great and your fortunate. The facts are Deere built a multimillion dollar facility to build those skid steers. Although, initially they sold well (mostly off of the Deere name from loyal Green guys like yourself), the problems started showing up which slowed sales, and drove resale into the ground. Incentives were released to move machines making them very affordable (they still are very affordable). The problem is incentives come off of the bottom line for the manufacturer. The new factory was closed and the skid steer line was moved to the backhoe plant. Using the rental market as a litmus test for what general consumers are using isn't always a good representation of what kind of machine it is. Price will almost always be the deciding factor for a rental store (see above). CNH is the #2 selling skid steer behind Bobcat (CASE specifically) how many Case machines do your see for rent. Not many, reason is they cost more (generally). Perhaps the 300 series machines will be the MACHINE to have, but the series I and II machines will never be a machine that Deere will have been proud of. Just as ag. Deere will never point to the 8850 as a success, although they have many more successes than dissapointments. Example would be the 30 series which was way ahead of the competition at the time. No one likes to hear that the machine they run AND happen to like being dogged. BOBCAT250 is just refering to the JD skid steer line by the reputation that it has, and he is correct.

Tigerotor77W
12-12-2004, 04:58 PM
:blushes: thanks, Kaiser... I didn't want to make him think I was attacking him. If I did, jd270, sorry. Didn't mean to.

And guys, I really am NOT the most knowledgable guy here. :-) I just have too much time on my hands some days.

jd270
12-12-2004, 07:11 PM
i guess it is just funny that they dont have that reputation around here there is hardly any at my dearler getting worker on and my dealer is probably one of the biggest in the nation i know the most of the employes pesonaly we have delt with them for over 25 years and they just dont have any thing bad to say about them and a lot of the people around here with them are old bobcat owners myself included we also own ford tractors and a 555 jd crawler loader and im looking at a cat d8 right now and if you are refering to the 8850 deere 4/4 tractor the tractor wasent bad but the v8 motor had a lot of head gasket problems .my dealer wouldnt have sold me a machine i would have problems with we do to much business with them htey could have tried to sell me a used bobcat they have plenty of them my 270 wasent new it was a demo wich they gave me a full factory warenty and ive ran it hard moved over 6,000 yrds of dirt and clay with itin 100 hrs now if it gives me problems ill be the first one to be yelling i know a few farmers with them but mostly constuction outfits and if the deeres are so bad why are there so many used bocats at the deere dealer and hardly any deeres at the bobcat dealer the truth is you can read all you want to about somthing but untill you have done it yourself or have personally owned one its hard to complain about it i know plenty about diesels and hydralics i also have a small machine shop and am a certified welder besides farming and dont really care for one brand over another just what works and is cost efective this way you know who i am and not just blowing smoke

Tigerotor77W
12-12-2004, 10:03 PM
It's cool. Let's forget about it.

In the meantime, if you're looking at a new D8 (you didn't mention if it's new or used), make sure you don't fall for a D8R SII. Go instead for the D8T. It's got an Tier-III diesel engine in it, the first in an off-road tractor, and while it has the same engine HP as the R SII, its cab is more refined.

Not to be biased, also take a look at the Deere 1050C. Contractors seem to love 'em more than anything... :sigh: Cat has got to get their act back in shape. They've been beaten up too much by Deere.

jd270
12-12-2004, 11:20 PM
looking at a used one ...you can grt a lot of machine for little money it seems like those old d8s run forever

UNISCAPER
12-13-2004, 02:05 AM
Since the average production time for a 939 track loader (1.25 yd bucket)can move 400 yards of dirt in an 8 hour day, I'm curious as to how you could move 6,000 yards in 100 working hours.

jd270
12-13-2004, 04:48 PM
the amount was figured by my brotherinlaw runs a trackhoe it was his house we did i moved all the dig from the basement and the 900 ft drive way that we had to muck out he dug the muck with a back hoe and i laid in new dirt and then i moved all the muck after it dryed then put the back fill back in then put the black dirt over that then did the finsh grading aftre we dug out the walk out into the timber with the skid loader in total i had 115 hrs in it and since he was paying me 40 per hr when i wasent running it i wish there would of been more hrs on it to i have a 84inch bucket with a tooth bar and it carries a fair amout of dirt in certain conditions like there i can move dirt a lot faster with the 270 than our 555 crawler loader

Green Pastures
12-13-2004, 08:31 PM
I've been looking to buy a tracked skid loader recently. So I've been demo'ing quite a few and reading everything I can read, talking to everyone I see hauling one around town and the general feeling I get is......

BUY THE CAT, anything else is a compromise.

Green Pastures
12-13-2004, 09:21 PM
I think a 262B is more machine than you need for a dairy farm. Save your money for fuel and attachments.

I also think that for driving through the cow piss and crap muck puddles that EVERY dairy farm has a tracked MTL would be better for your needs.

My uncle Ron owns a dairy farm in Upstate N.Y. here in the states he had a small wheeled Bobcat and replaced it with Cat 247 I just found out this evening, like five minutes ago as a matter of fact.

He is alot happier with it so far.

Green Pastures
12-13-2004, 09:31 PM
I just wanted to say after reading my own post's that I mean no offence to anyone who owns another brand of machine. Deere, ASC, Cat, Bobcat, Case or New Holland.

FOR ME.......

It comes down to the Cat 257B as the best bang for the buck for the type of work I'll be doing with the machine.

The best local service. Cat.

The machine I felt most comfortable operating. Cat.

That IMHO are the three main reasons to choosing a machine for your business.