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Green Pastures
11-04-2004, 02:28 AM
http://www.asvi.com/rc60_main.cfm

I rented one of these today with a Harley Rake on it and a bucket on the side for doing seed bed prep work on 31K sq ft of gently rolling dirt.

Residential property. New turf installation.

I really like this machine. I was able to get all 31K done in under an hour and it did a FANTASTIC job. Filled in some low spots by grading down some high spots. All the while missing the already installed sprinkler heads.

Anybody else own one of these units?

I'm interested in long term ownership, reliability. I have a local dealer so parts and maintenance is not a problem but OTOH I don't want to purchase a problematic machine.

Thoughts?

Tigerotor77W
11-04-2004, 09:39 AM
My Cat dealer told me that the ASV machines aren't built very well... made comments to their being built in a garage in Minnesota. He also said the drive components weren't of the highest quality or durability. Even so, I haven't heard of anything failing on these machines.

lars
11-04-2004, 08:12 PM
Have been running an RC 50 (smaller loader arms) for about 250 hours this summer. It has been an excellent machine. I love the pilot controls. Nothing is better for fine tuning work. Serviceability is great, much better than our old New Holland. And don't forget that Cat uses the ASV track system. Oh yea, Cat engine and control system too. (wonder what the cat dealer has to say about that) All in all it's a great machine for the money.

UNISCAPER
11-04-2004, 10:14 PM
We had an RC-30, and a 257B Cat. Here is what is going to happen to ASV in the next 5 years. Cat has doubled all thier MTL machines to match ASV sizes. ASV runs Cat engines, and has Cat controls. Cat uses ASV tracks and suspension. There will be a merge in companies. ASV will allow Cat to use the track system and get royalties for the use, or, they will just sell out altogether, and Cat will discontinue the ASV line. Look at resale. Historically, Cat products bring more resale than any other equipment in thier class. This is documented not only by auction sales, provate sales as well. Bonding companies will bond Cat fleets for more money because of thier worth. That is proven by seeing the numbers of many bonding companies.

Instead of going to the RC-60, look hard at a Cat 247B series, or 257B. We have ours on the 3 year plan, where every three years we trade. If you do this, once ASV goes away, they won't have any resale. And, if you decide to keep the machine, you won't be able to get ASV exclusive parts.

The writing is on the wall, this is going to happen.

Green Pastures
11-05-2004, 12:01 AM
Maybe I'll just stick with the Bobcat T190 or T300.......

I looked at Bobcat and ASV today and the Bobcat's look to be a WAY better design.

I do like the pattern of the ASV tracks over the Bobcat's though, they are less aggressive and leave a smoother finish.

I'm looking to get into one for running a tiller, Harley Rake, landscape rake and an auger.

I'll look into the Cat's now.......

BRB......

Tigerotor77W
11-05-2004, 09:19 AM
You'll be blown away...

Green Pastures
11-05-2004, 09:45 AM
I did look at and test drive both brands yesterday. The Bobcat looks to me to be a far superior machine in many ways.

The only thing I'd like to see is a less aggressive track pattern.

UNISCAPER
11-05-2004, 10:20 AM
I will tell you why the Bobcat can't hold a candle to the Caterpillar. First, Cat service. Second to none. Second, Bobcat brand tracks are mounted on a rigid frame, with vulcanized rubber to a steel gear, which is coated with rubber that drives in the middle. The heat build up around that gear will cause the rubber vulcanization to separate, and when it does, those tracks cost you $2,000 per side. With the ASV track system Cat uses, there are air cooled open rollers on a fiberglass cord track. the difference when they wear is like night and day. With vulcanized steel, the tracks come unglued faster. With fiberglass cords, the tracks willstretch, and as they become more beat up, you can still run them,. There are several no nos that you need to learn about any MTL, and there is a course Caterpillar offers to train it's MTL owners how to operate thier machines. Once you take that course, it will answer any questions you ever had about MTL capabilties. We drive ours right up 2-1 slopes, side slope with it, push dirt with the 6 way blade, anything the steel track machines can do and then much more.

Bobcat machines will beat you to death, and thier controls are antiquated.

Just my opinion, get what ever suites you best, but Cat has so much more to offer than any other brands they ain't even worth looking at.

Green Pastures
11-05-2004, 11:16 AM
Have you recently owned a Bobcat?

Green Pastures
11-05-2004, 01:08 PM
Going to see the Cat's on Monday......

After doing alot of reading on the net, and after driving the machines Bobcat and ASV have to offer I was overall more impressed with the Bobcat than the ASV. The owner serviceability of the ASV was CRAP in direct comparison to the Bobcat. Open the back of the cat and EVERYTHING is right there, oil drain, fill and filter, Hydro fluid drain, fill and filter, Air filter, radiator fill and drain......

However I've since learned alot more about the benifits of the soft mounted track system the Cat's and ASV use as opposed to the hard mounted tracks the Bobcat uses, I need to go see the Cat's and drive them before I make up my mind.

Thanks guy's for all the responses.

UNISCAPER
11-05-2004, 02:41 PM
Scott:

Never owned a bobcat. We rented a 2004 Bobcat T-300 for 2 months, and at the same time had a 257B demo, the machines were running virtually side by side. After 2 hours in the Cat, the guys were begging to have us buy that one over the Bobcat. When you got out of the T-300, your brains were srambled and your arms tingled and your ankles were sore from the antiquated control system. Performance wise, we also felt the Cat out did the T-300. Fuel wise, the Cat used less. Overall comfort is really what sold the machine, and the service is beyond compare.

Tigerotor77W
11-05-2004, 06:14 PM
Bill, the only question I have regarding your comments is how a 257B was able to outwork the T-300. I could understand if you demo'ed a T190 vs. a 257B, but the T-300 is nearly double the size of the 257B.

Scott, a lot of the reason people have gone with Cat MTL/CTL is because their undercarriage is suspended. There are either two or three torsion bars that run the width of the machine that will yield to the ground; as the ground changes, so does the undercarriage. At the end of this reply please find the link for a video demo of Bobcat vs. Cat. The Cat hydraulic system also has an anti-stall feature built in. According to a dealer rep, the anti-stall can be tweaked enough to stall the engine -- if that be your fancy, your dealer should be able to do it. Finally, the interior of the cab is also a major selling point for Cat. They introduced the first pilot controls on skid steers and as a result reduced the amount fatigue. I operated a 236 for about one hour one day, and could easily see how an operator could tire easily from mechanical controls. Bobcat DOES offer joystick controls on its larger track machines now, so do keep that in mind.

Overall, from a pure owner perspective, the Cat MTL does look slightly better than the Bobcat CTL. However, the Bobcat will come out thousands less (most likely). Make sure your mechanics and operators take a look at each machine before you make your decision. Caterpillar did seem to borrow a great deal of technology from Bobcat (similar lift arm design, same door, cooling idea) before introducing its line, so I wouldn't be surprised if you find a great deal more similar than you expect.

Green Pastures
11-05-2004, 11:01 PM
BobcatS250 and Uniscaper,

:drinkup:

Thank you so much for the replies. I am learning as you post and I read literature and visit dealers to check out what you've said.

Spoke to a builder friend of mine today who, (unknown to me prior to today) owns both a Cat and a Bobcat and likes the Cat much better.

It all came down to operator fatigue, he said the Bobcat is a great machine, equal to the Cat in production, very easy to operate and service but that it just beats you to death.

Seems there is something to be said about that suspended track system.

I'm listening if you have more advice to offer.......

UNISCAPER
11-05-2004, 11:03 PM
Sorry, it was a typo. The machine we had was a T-190.

As said before, if you are going into any rubber tracked loader, particulalry a cat, take thier training first. It will save you thousands in costly mistakes.

Green Pastures
11-05-2004, 11:06 PM
Bill, the only question I have regarding your comments is how a 257B was able to outwork the T-300. I could understand if you demo'ed a T190 vs. a 257B, but the T-300 is nearly double the size of the 257B.

Scott, a lot of the reason people have gone with Cat MTL/CTL is because their undercarriage is suspended. There are either two or three torsion bars that run the width of the machine that will yield to the ground; as the ground changes, so does the undercarriage. At the end of this reply please find the link for a video demo of Bobcat vs. Cat. The Cat hydraulic system also has an anti-stall feature built in. According to a dealer rep, the anti-stall can be tweaked enough to stall the engine -- if that be your fancy, your dealer should be able to do it. Finally, the interior of the cab is also a major selling point for Cat. They introduced the first pilot controls on skid steers and as a result reduced the amount fatigue. I operated a 236 for about one hour one day, and could easily see how an operator could tire easily from mechanical controls. Bobcat DOES offer joystick controls on its larger track machines now, so do keep that in mind.

Overall, from a pure owner perspective, the Cat MTL does look slightly better than the Bobcat CTL. However, the Bobcat will come out thousands less (most likely). Make sure your mechanics and operators take a look at each machine before you make your decision. Caterpillar did seem to borrow a great deal of technology from Bobcat (similar lift arm design, same door, cooling idea) before introducing its line, so I wouldn't be surprised if you find a great deal more similar than you expect.


Anti stall? Can you elaborate on what this is good / not good for?

Also you forgot to add the link to the video......... :blush:

Also I don't see how Cat can make any improvements over Bobcats owner serviceability. When I opened to back door to the T300 EVERYTHING was right there within inches of reach. Can could match it but improve, I'll have to see that on Monday when I go for a Cat demo.......

Again, THANKS guy's I'm listening.........

Tigerotor77W
11-06-2004, 01:07 PM
First things: http://www.nebraskarents.com/default-multiterrainloader.asp

Anti-stall is Cat's (and Komatsu's) brand differentiation feature. The feature keeps the engine from stalling while doing demanding work. Simply put: it allows the operator to achieve near-maximum breakout force while charging the pile. Where on a Case or Bobcat the engine will bog as the operator pushes the control levers forward relentlessly, the Cat system will destroke the pumps to allow the operator control over his machine's hydraulics. Cat operators enjoy it because it takes the operators' mind off keeping the engine above stall; Bobcat and Case claim that the system removes control from the operator (operator cannot get the last bit of power out of the machine). Again, however, the anti-stall feature can be tweaked so that you do get a more-aggressive tractive effort.

Serviability: your Caterpillar dealer should have a poster-like brochure that describes, in detail, the advantages Cat has over Bobcat. (The literature does not mention Bobcat equipment by name, but is obvious that the intended comparison was Cat vs. Bobcat.) The sevicability of the Bobcat is, in many ways, unmatched, but remember that it is difficult and thus expensive to access components behind the engine.

badranman
11-06-2004, 05:45 PM
Man , that video of the machine with tires is hilarious. He must have duct taped his hardhat on... :dizzy:

Tigerotor77W
11-07-2004, 12:18 AM
Hahaha... I thought the Bobcat track loader was worse off... never a moment's peace. At least the 753L (aka 763 in actual production) had air time. :laugh:

Green Pastures
11-07-2004, 01:27 AM
Those video's pretty much did it for me. I'm not going to get myself beat up like that on a daily basis.

I go on Monday to demo a Cat.

Tigerotor77W
11-07-2004, 11:04 AM
Not sure what conditions you work in, but do keep in mind that you'll experience severe vibration more on courses like that than, say, backfilling. Rough terrain will bounce you arouund a bit; in mud just about everyone is equal.

UNISCAPER
11-07-2004, 11:28 AM
I'll say it and emphisize it one more time. Make sure you sign up for Caterpillar MTL training course. I took it before we even bought our machine, now, we have 4 operators signed up in the spanish version. This is key to making your purcahse a profitable one, because you not only learn proper maintenance, you learn proper operation and capabilities. If you are purchasing the machine, Cat should throw it in for you as a deal sealer. The sessions after purchase in spanish are $250.00 per person, but our Cat dealer gave us all 4 people for $250.00.

This training is the single best thing you can do for your bottom line.

Green Pastures
11-07-2004, 02:32 PM
Not sure what conditions you work in, but do keep in mind that you'll experience severe vibration more on courses like that than, say, backfilling. Rough terrain will bounce you arouund a bit; in mud just about everyone is equal.


Agreed, but any reduction in vibration, bounce or jarring is not only good for the operator but HAS to be better for the life of the machine itself as well.

Green Pastures
11-07-2004, 02:34 PM
I'll say it and emphisize it one more time. Make sure you sign up for Caterpillar MTL training course.


I hear ya loud and clear. Heard ya the first time and decided to take the course no matter who's machine I end up with.

Thanks......

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2004, 01:12 AM
How did the demo go?

I tried out a 257B today and wasn't very fond that the machine would lose breakout power if I kept the tracks going. If I charged the pile and rolled back and lifted, I would barely be able to get the bucket out. If I charged it, rolled back, stopped, and then lifted, I got a better bite out of the pile. The 236 I demoed didn't have as much of a problem with the simultaneous movement, but it was a LOT more tipsy than the 257B. Cat made the controls even better on the B series. I liked the A series, but lemme tell ya, those B pilot controls are smooooooth.

I didn't like the dust getting in my face, though...

Green Pastures
11-13-2004, 01:41 AM
Haven't done a demo yet.

I'm also not sure how to demo the machine. I'm not having any luck understanding what the devil you are talking about. Breakout power? What's that.

You have to remember when you're suggesting things to me that I've never owned one of these machines before and I dont do piles. I've rented them on occasion and use them for finish grading with a Harley rake. The only "pile" i pick up with the bucket is the pile of debris I rake up.

Basically if it will push a Harley rake and pick up Harley raked piles I'm golden.

:blush:

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2004, 01:35 PM
Ah yes, I forgot the original purpose of this thread. In that case, what I said wasn't really relevant to your tasks, but in any case, breakout force is typically the force exerted by the hydraulics -- either bucket or boom -- at four inches back from the cutting edge of the bucket. (With the bucket level on the ground, how much force the hydraulics are able to supply.) When I kept the tracks on the 257B spinning and tried to rollback the bucket and lift, I was putting such a large load on the hydraulic system that the boom and bucket functions were sluggish. Eh, don't worry about it.

If you plan to demo it, I would try to get a Harley on it and go to a potential site (or just to a dealer's dirt lot, if there is one available). Take it for a ride -- raise the Harley (or roll it back -- just so it's off the ground) -- and try running over SMALL potholes or sticks and see how comfortable you find it compared to other machines. Look at servicability; ask the salesman how to access routine change items. Play around with the heating and ventilation controls and see how well they work for you. Basically, do the same things you would do if you were test driving a car.

UNISCAPER
11-13-2004, 05:02 PM
If your Cat dealer is anything like Patten tractor, or Hawthorne machinery, they will bring you a machine and do a dual contract. One for a sale, and, one for a rental in case you decide not to buy. I recommend this because you will be able to run the machine in the areas you want to work it. A few days on something, and you should easily be able to see if it will do the job you want it to do. If you decide against it, you would have had to pay rent for it anyway, and, if you do it right, you will build the cost of the rental into the job you are doing so you recover it's cost from your customer.

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2004, 08:33 PM
Uniscaper, how did you know about Patten? Are you referring to the Patten in Illinois?

UNISCAPER
11-13-2004, 08:43 PM
At one point we had 72 pieces of equipment we bough through them and we landscaped Mr. Pattens home in Oak Brook.

Tigerotor77W
11-13-2004, 09:36 PM
Wow... that's amazing. Patten is actually my local dealer and John Norton is one of the best dealer salespeople I've spoken to.

What company were you with?

(Sorry for disrupting the nature of this thread... we can continue this in an PM if you want.)

Green Pastures
11-14-2004, 01:33 AM
If your Cat dealer is anything like Patten tractor, or Hawthorne machinery, they will bring you a machine and do a dual contract. One for a sale, and, one for a rental in case you decide not to buy. I recommend this because you will be able to run the machine in the areas you want to work it. A few days on something, and you should easily be able to see if it will do the job you want it to do. If you decide against it, you would have had to pay rent for it anyway, and, if you do it right, you will build the cost of the rental into the job you are doing so you recover it's cost from your customer.


I informed my Cat dealer that I had a job I could do, and asked him about renting one of his 257's and a Harley rake to do the job. I was actually VERY SURPRISED when he offered to let me use his demo equipment for free on the job as a "demo". He is still working on finding a Harley rake in his rental fleet that I can use for the day.

This obviously makes for a big increase in profit margin on the job for my business. Good for him too, cuz IF I decide to buy the equipment, I'll have a bigger down payment.

I really like the serviceability on the Bobcat much better. Everything that needs regular maintenance is laid out in a better position on the Bobcat. The drawback is that the Bobcat T-190 has no suspension, and the tracks have a more aggressive pattern. The track pattern on the Cat leaves a very smooth print IF any at all.

Keep in mind 80% of what I will be using this machine for (at first anyway) is finish grading and seed bed prep. Maybe snow clearing.....if we get any snow....

It's still narrowed down to the Bobcat T-190 and the Cat 257, I have no idea which one will win out in the end.

Tigerotor77W
11-14-2004, 12:39 PM
I'll throw a few more ideas out here and let you decide.

1) Ask yourself if you'll be working on conditions that require the suspension design of the Cat. If you're working on smooth hills, you likely won't notice a difference. It's curb-hopping, putting 2" stones on the driveway, and heavy digging where you might feel some bounciness.

2) Ask yourself if you are comfortable working with the stiffer controls of the Bobcat. I know from experience that the B-series Cats are extremely smooth -- if you feel that you'll have a sore wrist from making corrections in steering after working the Bobcat, go with a Cat.

3) How do you like the visability of each machine? Is there a specific spot at which the Bobcat's visibility is better than the Cat's?

4) Noise factors. Raising the boom all the way on a 257B dramatically reduces the noise. Will you be working with the boom up or down most of the time?

5) Dust. Does the cooling system of one machine throw dust into the cab?

6) Stability. Which one do you FEEL more comfortable working with? Which one appears to have the added reassurance of more stability (either lateral or fore-aft)?

7) Dealer attention. Which dealer seemed to care about your company more? Which one really gave an extra ounce of effort?

8) Componentry. If you want to switch tracks, how long does it take? What about accessing the radiator? Hystat pumps? Will you be doing any of this yourself?

9) Performance. Which seems to have more power? How well does the throttle work? Will it affect your performance greatly if you throttle down?

Hope that helps...

Pacific Nursery
11-15-2004, 08:35 PM
Been looking at ASV (new) or POSI (older) myself lately. Very interesting to read your take on MTL's.
Iron Planet has some auctions with lots of MTL's.
Anybody have an opinion on 2810 or 4810 posi's?

Tigerotor77W
11-15-2004, 08:55 PM
Somewhat outdated loader and engine. No torque control system (anit-stall). Probably not the best reliability... have heard they don't hold up very well. Take a read around and let us know if you have a specific question ("what machine to get for so and so application")

UNISCAPER
11-15-2004, 09:09 PM
Posi track's had some very bad drive issues. The planetary dives blew as did thier transimssions. Also, to control that machine, there are two levers on the right side of the cab where one has to be pulled, and the other pushed to steer. Major pain in the rear. What was cool, is they had rear ptos and 3 point hitch as options.

Pacific Nursery
11-15-2004, 09:27 PM
'Nuff said about the posi.
Iron planet has a Cat 257 coming up in it's next auction. Little over 1500 hrs.
I do grading, sod, ret. walls, snow etc. will 257 with weights pick up a pallet of block?

http://www.ironplanet.com/j/equip/equip.jsp?equipId=122213&h=405,389

UNISCAPER
11-15-2004, 10:14 PM
We take 500 sf of sod per pallet off the flatbeds and lower it to the ground all day long with our 257B, no counterweights.. Is your sod rolled or folded? Some genoius out here got the notion that if they folded it in half the truck carries more pallets. Rolled sod is best, but I think it is heavier, especially after a midwest rain. Our pallets are weighing in around 3000lbs or so.

Scag48
11-15-2004, 10:42 PM
Green Pastures-This is what it came down to with us when we decided to go Cat instead of Bobcat

1. Controls- I hate Bobcat controls, that's all there is to it. No matter how much they try to sugar coat their system, it's nowhere near as good as Cat's, especially the B-series, I hear they are SUPERB. I myself haven't tried the B-series yet.
2. Serviceability- Did your dealer point out to you that the cooling fan on the radiator is hydraulically powered vs. electric AND it blows the air up and out vs. sucking it in and thus clogging the radiator sooner? Check it out, great feature, keeps the radiator cleaner, longer. It also seems to me that the Bobcat rear door doesn't let you get in as close as the Cat and that would be a pain to me.
3. Resale and Dealer support- A big one for us, the resale of a Cat is going to be great, and Bobcat will be good as well, but dealer support was a big deciding factor. We just couldn't find anyone better to serve us and NC Machinery up here in Washington has been great.

Another thing that I like about our Cat vs. a Bobcat is the foot throttle; it is AWESOME. Now some might say that it's not a big deal, but for me it is absolutely a must have. With Bobcat, you have to push the throttle lever full tilt to keep the machine moving at full pace. Now this is a PITA for a few reasons. If you get anywhere where you need to get in close like next to a building, etc, with a Bobcat you have to take your hands off the controls, set the throttle where you want it, then continue, otherwise if it's full tilt the possibility of jerking the machine into something you don't want to run into is high. With Cat, you can modulate how much throttle you're giving the machine instantly, while moving and not taking your hands off the controls. This will help if you hit some rough ground and reduce bucking, although anymore I've gotten used to just keeping the RPMS and the same if I hit rough ground. Usually, I just let off on the joystick a little rather than alot, otherwise the machine slows down and starts bucking, operator error. This system is claimed to save fuel, not much, but I imagine that by not having your machine cranked up when you don't need it is going to save some fuel. Now, the machine gives you the ability to set the throttle where you want traditionally like a Bobcat, but I seldom use it. The only time I ever set the engine speed is when I'm using the Harley Rake and even then I'd have to be running a long distance where you would want to be running the machine full bore for a long stretch anyway. If you've ever driven a tractor or a backhoe with a foot throttle and ever felt the need to slow down or speed up instantly at your whim, this is just like that and I wouldn't have it any other way. Sorry for the long post, but I'm trying to put into words how great these machines are.

Tigerotor77W
11-15-2004, 11:47 PM
Green Pastures-This is what it came down to with us when we decided to go Cat instead of Bobcat

1. Controls- I hate Bobcat controls, that's all there is to it. No matter how much they try to sugar coat their system, it's nowhere near as good as Cat's, especially the B-series, I hear they are SUPERB. I myself haven't tried the B-series yet.
2. Serviceability- Did your dealer point out to you that the cooling fan on the radiator is hydraulically powered vs. electric AND it blows the air up and out vs. sucking it in and thus clogging the radiator sooner? Check it out, great feature, keeps the radiator cleaner, longer. It also seems to me that the Bobcat rear door doesn't let you get in as close as the Cat and that would be a pain to me.

Another thing that I like about our Cat vs. a Bobcat is the foot throttle; it is AWESOME.

1. Yes, the B-series controls are AMAZING. I thought the A-series' were smooth, but the B-series totally blew me away.

2. Cat's system is supposedly built stronger, but if Bobcat had not had its system out, Cat wouldn't have come up with it. Cat's components -- in a great deal of its machine -- are beefed-up Bobcat components. The boom arms looked alike (say, 226 vs. 763), the cooling system was similar, and the even the dimensions of the two machines were similar. Gotta admit, though, that Cat did a darned good job. Can't disagree with this one, either.

Foot throttle is a good thing.

I'm going to shut up now and let you decide... I've had enough of my blabbering for a while.

Green Pastures
11-16-2004, 12:19 AM
PLEASE DON'T SHUT UP.

I'm listening intently!

radix2
11-16-2004, 01:03 AM
'Nuff said about the posi.

I'd caution you about putting too much into third hand opinions here- the 2800/4800 series ASV machines are one of the best deals out there in the used MTL market right now.

ASV is moving to smaller/more compact machines based on standard loader dimensions like everyone else, so the 2800/4800 series has been discontinued.

The 4810 has a Cat 3054T (105hp), the 2810 an Isuzu J4B1T (83hp) both much more powerful than used in more standard machines. Both excellent powertrains. The Isuzu being one of the most proven 4 cyl diesels -used all over the world in everything from pick-up trucks to cement mixers.

The transmissions/motors/gearboxes ASV used are all top quality standard parts - transmission - Webster, Motors- Eaton, gearboxes- Auburn. These machines are overbuilt, and depending on the model, the same drive system components are used on the new ASV or Cat MTL models.

As to the controls, I really suggest you drive one if you can - the controls (on the Left not the Right) are very easy to use, I think having a more precise feel than the new pilot operated stick controls. There is no pulling or pushing the sticks, the feel is very good for manouvering in tight places, each track can be precisely controlled with a small finger/wrist motion and is extremely intuitive.

The PTOs on the older 4500 and MD70 were on the front under the loader, not in the rear.

In summary, the 2800/4800 series went away so ASV could move to the mainstream, these machines are just not as compact (so you could reverse the seat and pull implements), low cost ( high flow is standard, the engines are about 20-30 hp more than the competition) as the new series machines. The 2800/4800 were mainly used by government and big industry that could afford the size and cost, now with MTLs catching on with smaller operators, it makes sense to follow the crowd and commonize with their Cat cousins.

It would be silly to say stay away from a 4800/2800 but go with a Cat 2x7 for the reasons listed.

Pacific Nursery
11-16-2004, 11:54 AM
:dizzy: Wouldn't life be great if all our choices were this easy :rolleyes:

:blush: I'm ususally the first to say 'don't believe everything you hear'

I don't know where you guys find the time to participate in these forums as much as you do, but I am gratefull for your time. :waving:

YardPro
11-19-2004, 02:25 PM
i have a friend with the rc 60 and it is awesome.
a far better deal than the t300.

he got the unit, tailer, forks and 4 in one bucket for $31 or $31K

Pacific Nursery
11-19-2004, 04:14 PM
Is this new equip, and do they have more. :blob3:

ksss
11-21-2004, 02:29 PM
I would keep this in mind. The suspended undercarriage makes for a great ride. It was perhaps the only redeeming quality that ASV brought to the table. CAT did not buy into them for their control system, or lift design it was the suspended track. We see several older ASVs here and a few tried the CAT MTL initially. Realizing that our ground here is not track friendly ( the reason they are not big sellers here) the suspended tracks are very costly to maintain. On the ones that were originally sold they are proving to be not cost effective and the resale reflects this. The aspect of the unsuspended track system, although a rougher ride, will prove to be much more economical to own. Perhaps selecting a machine with an unsuspended track that offers RIDE CONTROL would be the best compromise. If you work in a fairly rock free area, and mostly flat perhaps the suspended machines do prove to be cost effective. Here in heavy rock, lot of slope, the numbers don't add up for the suspended machines or the unsuspended machines for that matter. For the few times they are really needed it is more cost effective to rent. You will need to charge more for what your doing to cover increase in purchase and upkeep. Keep that money put away for the day you need new tracks or under carriage components. I am not saying they don't have a place, they do, but I would be sure you need the track capability before laying out for one.

Pacific Nursery
11-21-2004, 05:18 PM
We are pretty hilly out here with some areas of rocky ground. Our work kinda 50/50 rough and rocky to flat and muddy.
Not following the suspended/unsuspended ride control. Can you elaborate?

Scag48
11-21-2004, 05:53 PM
I think that if you're working in rocky and rough conditions like ksss described, why spend more for an unsuspended track machine vs. a wheeled machine with steel tracks? I myself would only consider Cat for an MTL just because of the suspended design and to me it wouldn't make sense to spend more on an unsuspended machine rather than a large wheeled machine with tracks, am I somewhat correct? Seems that in a rocky environment those rubber tracks would just get chewed up quickly (they're expensive!) and steel doesn't tear up to well.

Tigerotor77W
11-21-2004, 07:01 PM
We are pretty hilly out here with some areas of rocky ground. Our work kinda 50/50 rough and rocky to flat and muddy.
Not following the suspended/unsuspended ride control. Can you elaborate?

The ASV undercarriage is the only suspended undercarriage in the industry. It uses two torsion axles on each side to allow the undercarriage to shift up and down, keeping the loader more stable, material in the bucket, and the operator comfortable. Caterpillar dozers and track loaders use a similar idea to suspend their larger undercarriages. (See www.asvi.com for more information on their suspended undercarriages.)

Ride control does much of the same. It uses nitrogen acculmulators in the lift circuit to cushion the loader arms, so as you could imagine, where you might hit a bump and have the load go flying, with RC, some of the load is retained. (Granted it can't keep everything in the bucket... but it will be better than losing everything.)

ksss was saying that because rocks are not friendly with tracks -- they eat up the tracks quickly -- go with a machine with a non-suspended undercarriage that has RC. The suspended one will wear faster but the non-suspended with RC will do a similar job.

Tigerotor77W
11-21-2004, 07:03 PM
I think that if you're working in rocky and rough conditions like ksss described, why spend more for an unsuspended track machine vs. a wheeled machine with steel tracks? I myself would only consider Cat for an MTL just because of the suspended design and to me it wouldn't make sense to spend more on an unsuspended machine rather than a large wheeled machine with tracks, am I somewhat correct? Seems that in a rocky environment those rubber tracks would just get chewed up quickly (they're expensive!) and steel doesn't tear up to well.

Steel tracks on certain machines lug the engine more, puts more strain on powertrain components, and the tires themselves are still prone (very prone) to cuts. It would be all the more hassle to remove a flat tire with tracks on than just to remove the tire itself.

Of course, if pea gravel is all you're working in terms of rockiness, nothing wrong with steel tracks. Very viable suggestion if the rocks are too jagged.

radix2
11-21-2004, 10:20 PM
The absolute main reason to get a tracked machine is low ground pressure - if you work where the surface can support 30-50psi vs. 3-5 psi then go with a wheeled machine. If you need to work across sensitive tree roots or muddy conditions a track machine makes sense. The other advantage would be if you are going to put a blade on and do some dozing.

Lets agree that on rocky sharp loose surfaces - say 6-10 inch crushed rock - tires or tracks, you are going to have problems if you don't grade/fill yourself a working surface.

I don't really think the suspension aspect of the ASV tracks has alot to do with this issue. In fact, one of the advantages of the Cat/ASV tracks is that they dont have embedded steel bars in them like the Bobcat or Takuechi tracks do. The unsuspended machines have very little track support except in the center of the track, that is why if you drive on uneven surfaces (say like one side on the top of a curb, and the other side on the street) you can bend the edges of the track and ruin it very quickly.

If you look at the system used on the Cat 267 and up MTLs or Posi Tracks, they have 24 bogie wheels that support the track right to the edges and the fact that the carriages are separately suspended means that all of the weight is not forced to be carried on that one point. Here is a video example (http://www.nebraskarents.com/video/ROCK.mpg)

If an unsuspended machine went over that rock, all of the weight of the machine would be on that one point, if it wasn't centered under the track support, you risk bending the track steel. For this reason, the suspended tracks can maintain a more uniform and lower ground pressure.

ksss
12-01-2004, 03:12 AM
Radix2
I would agree with your post. The point I would make is simply if the machine is used only for what it is intended a suspended tracked machine will provide everything that is promised, smooth ride, low ground pressure, and hopefully a reasonable track and undercarriage component life. I believe the unsuspended track systems are more forgiving maintenance wise than the suspended machines when taken out of their "element". They are a much more simple design, and in my view, a more rugged design. I have worked on two jobsites with an ASV. The way they were able to climb over curbs was incredible. I think the operator could have been drinking coffee at the same time and not spilled a drop. I believe that some guys maybe jumping into the tracked machines without totally researching the costs of ownership associated with tracked machines and what they need a machine to do. Example: If your actually utilizing a tracked machine for its purpose (low impact, wet ground conditions or whatever) 10 percent of the time. Your probably not realizing the kind of return you will need to make the machine pay for the capability you "thought" you needed. Because 90 percent of the time, your using the tracked machine where it is not advantageous to do so.

I was told of a system last week, that Loegren came up with that adds tracks to wheeled skid steers. It also has a torsion bar set up. Takes one hour install. On a 95XT the advertised psi is 3-5 pounds. The 95 weighs just under 10K. There is a video of this system showing 60" tree spades on 95XT's spading without the need of stabilizers. I haven't seen the video personally nor have I seen the tracks. It must be some type of suspended track system if they are using torsion bars. The Loegren sales people stopped in at the CASE dealership and were showing off the system. I was told the price was 15K. "They will fit all yellow machines, but not white ones" was the answer when I asked about compatibility with other machines. I was promised a copy of the video. Might be an option for those that need the occasional advantages of a tracked machine but can't justify a dedicated tracked machine. The price seems a little steep but that is about the added cost of a tracked machine vs a wheeled machine.

Tigerotor77W
12-01-2004, 12:02 PM
Is it possible (copyright laws) to post the video here? And seems like brand-discrimination not to allow the tracks on Bobcat machines! :)

Actually the reason is most likely the keel structure of the Bobcat... can't get torsion bars that work with that type of undercarriage. Ah well. If you really wanted them on a Bobcat, you could always buy a CTL from Bobcat, remove the undercarriage, and put on the Loegering. Now that would be a waste...

EngDave
12-01-2004, 10:31 PM
Unless Loegering changed something from their brochure, their new track system (Versatile Track System, VTS) fits many skid steers. I picked up a copy and it shows pictures of Case, Bobcat, Cat, Deere, and New Holland retrofitted. According to their description it's an "independent bi-directional torsion suspension". I saw a portion of the video, what you'd expect from a track machine. The brochure does say it works with two speed drives. I was quoted $16k. The demo machine wasn't around when I visited the dealer so I wasn't able to test drive. This is an interesting design, hope it proves to be reliable.
For me, I've decided to stay on tires for the time being. I'm still afraid of tearing a track in the woods. The new 300 Series Deere advertise tractive efforts much higher than I thought possible from a SSL so maybe I can get the push I'm looking for with lower maintenance costs from a wheel machine. Waiting for the new Case specs to compare.

Tigerotor77W
12-02-2004, 09:42 AM
Yeah, those machines do have extremely, extremely high numbers. I think the only two machines I've seen higher are the 963 Bobcat and the 7810/7610/2099/2199/2095/2105 Gehl/Mustangs. I'd imagine the pumps in the Deeres are now huge... and judging from their hystat tractors' impressive features, I think this new line will finally give some competition into the field.

UNISCAPER
12-02-2004, 10:38 AM
If you use your head, you can do a number of things with an MTL that are supposed to be big no nos/ Dmo for example...No tracks on demo. That is falocy. If you go straight on and staright off, demo will not hurt your machine. We have 120 demo hours and 300 excavating hours thus far. No significant wear that I can see.

jd270
12-02-2004, 06:00 PM
i havent had a chance to run a new deere yet but i will tell you that around here alot of the people and the state has went to a lot of deeres that used to run bobcats my 270 with a 84 inhc dirt bucket with tooth bar pushes unreal made my old 873 look like a joke

Tigerotor77W
12-02-2004, 07:25 PM
Yes it willl. More axle torque (TONS more) and more weight=more push power. And the new ones have even more.

wetnwild
12-02-2004, 09:12 PM
Loegering is now owned by ASV.

In the brochure, the VTS system is shown on a white machine as well as other colors.

The Owner's Manual is available and shows how it is installed.

See Loegering Versatile Track System (http://www.loegering.com/VTS.htm)

YardPro
12-09-2004, 08:19 PM
My Cat dealer told me that the ASV machines aren't built very well... made comments to their being built in a garage in Minnesota. He also said the drive components weren't of the highest quality or durability. Even so, I haven't heard of anything failing on these machines.

CAT owns 20% of asv.

they bought in so they could get thier undercarriage.

a friend has an rc 60 and it's super sweet.

Tigerotor77W
12-09-2004, 08:32 PM
Yes... Cat appears to use different components than some of those in the ASV. Not sure of this validity -- just saying what the guy told me.

ksss
12-12-2004, 02:33 PM
What I believe was meant by the "no white ones" was that the same system could be taken off of one "yellow machine" to another. However, the Bobcat was a specialized design perhaps due to the keal design of the undercarriage requiring a "white only" design. I would be interested in this if it proves to work as advertised. Especially if I could switch between a 70XT and a 95XT with the same set of tracks. That would a great advantage to anyone running two or more machines as you could track whichever machine would best fit the job. Great idea.

I would be surprised if ASV bought Loegren. Its possible I guess.

Uniscaper: Although in certain situations I think you can use tracks in demo easily, other jobs would be more difficult to go straight in and straight out. We use a breaker a lot which tends to be in rubble strewn areas making it not too practical to clean before entering. I see what happens to our excavator tracks in demo and they take a beating. Although the excavator tends to be in the middle of the mess, it would be important to control who was running the MTL. Hopefully it would be someone who had a financial interest in the machine, because one mistake could get very expensive if the result was a torn track.

wetnwild
12-12-2004, 04:23 PM
ASV (http://www.asvi.com/) bought Loegering (http://www.loegering.com/) in October for $18 million. 40% of ASV sales are due to Caterpillar. This relationship will probably change given the growth in the overall market for rubber track loaders and the decline in sales of ASV's own Posi-Track products. Acquisition?

Here is an article on Compact Track Loaders (http://www.acppubs.com/article/CA477780.html) dated 11/15/04. It talks about the growth in the market as well as the many products available.

Green Pastures
12-13-2004, 09:53 PM
I'll throw a few more ideas out here and let you decide.

1) Ask yourself if you'll be working on conditions that require the suspension design of the Cat. If you're working on smooth hills, you likely won't notice a difference. It's curb-hopping, putting 2" stones on the driveway, and heavy digging where you might feel some bounciness.

I noticed a large enough difference in my most recent demo's to warrant the price of the suspension.

2) Ask yourself if you are comfortable working with the stiffer controls of the Bobcat. I know from experience that the B-series Cats are extremely smooth -- if you feel that you'll have a sore wrist from making corrections in steering after working the Bobcat, go with a Cat.

The Caterpillar controls were IMHO alot better than the other 2 brands I've demo'd.......ASV and Bobcat.

3) How do you like the visability of each machine? Is there a specific spot at which the Bobcat's visibility is better than the Cat's?

Did not really see a noticeable difference between the machines.

4) Noise factors. Raising the boom all the way on a 257B dramatically reduces the noise. Will you be working with the boom up or down most of the time?

The Caterpillar was the quietest of the bunch but not by much.

5) Dust. Does the cooling system of one machine throw dust into the cab?

All the units I've demo'd had enclosed cabs and I did not notice any dust, then again it's been pretty wet here and I wasn't kicking up to much dust. I really liked the fact that the cooling fan was driven hydraulically on the Cat, if the tracks are rolling the fan is supplying cooling air, not the case in a belt driven machine. Belt breaks, and no cooling over the radiators, you won't be any wiser till the idiot light comes on......... :cry:

6) Stability. Which one do you FEEL more comfortable working with? Which one appears to have the added reassurance of more stability (either lateral or fore-aft)?

Caterpillar, hands down. Easiest to operate so I could concentrate more on my work than co-ordinating my feet and hands. Cat was less bouncy than the Bobcat. Not having to use youe feet to control the bucket was the single most comfortable thing. After a day with the Bobcat (granted it was my first day, I'm sure you'ld get used to it) but after that day I could barely move my ankles, they were SORE!

7) Dealer attention. Which dealer seemed to care about your company more? Which one really gave an extra ounce of effort?

Again Caterpillar by a wide margin. They are very good about support around here with several locations. Bobcat has only one location and it's 37 miles away, ASV even further with even less service.

8) Componentry. If you want to switch tracks, how long does it take? What about accessing the radiator? Hystat pumps? Will you be doing any of this yourself?

Again Caterpillar....I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. Believe me, I know the Cat is a full $8K more than a "comparable" (ha ha) Bobcat or ASV, but I was assured and SHOWN that there is nothing on this machine I could not maintain myself for at least the first 2000 hours. With a few specialized tools I could do all maintenance for the life of the machine, myself in my own driveway.

9) Performance. Which seems to have more power? How well does the throttle work? Will it affect your performance greatly if you throttle down?

I liked the Cat. Seems to me that when you compare spec sheets you're not comparing apples to apples. The Bobcat T-190 is listed at 61 hp with 7244 lbs.overall operating weight, while the Caterpillar 257B lists 62 hp and overall operational weight of 7559 lbs. It felt to me like the Cat was way more powerful than the Bobcat. More stable, MUCH less vibration and noise. I liked the way you adjust the track tension on the Cat much better. The tracks were less disturbing to the soil and yet I felt no difference in "traction". You could get to the critical components like the track rollers, idler wheels, drivetrain and the track itself easier on the Cat for daily cleaning.

Hope that helps...

It did. I knew what to look for and what questions to ask.

I'm sold on the Caterpillar 257B.

Green Pastures
12-13-2004, 10:12 PM
Loegering is now owned by ASV.

In the brochure, the VTS system is shown on a white machine as well as other colors.

The Owner's Manual is available and shows how it is installed.

See Loegering Versatile Track System (http://www.loegering.com/VTS.htm)


My local Cat dealer had several of these in stock on his lot when I went there last week to do some pricing. They looked great but they were on palletts not on machines. He say's they're selling like hotcakes especially with all the rain we've had this past summer.

Tigerotor77W
12-13-2004, 10:16 PM
Hmm... I assume you went with the Cat, then? :)

wetnwild
12-13-2004, 10:30 PM
On the weight just make sure you add it all in. You were wondering if you were going to have to get a CDL.

I thought a 257B, 6 way blade, forks, tooth bucket was close to 12K#? For your grading/prep your probably going to carry a Harley rake?

The Bobcat T-190 is listed at 61 hp with 7244 lbs.overall operating weight, while the Caterpillar 257B lists 62 hp and overall operational weight of 7559 lbs.

I'm sold on the Caterpillar 257B.

Green Pastures
12-14-2004, 01:59 AM
On the weight just make sure you add it all in. You were wondering if you were going to have to get a CDL.

I thought a 257B, 6 way blade, forks, tooth bucket was close to 12K#? For your grading/prep your probably going to carry a Harley rake?


Yeak they are heavy. I'm going with a 257B with the Combo bucket, Tiller, Harley Rake and an Auger with 4 bits. I have yet to add it all up.

But I am also looking at a Ford F-750/Dump that does NOT require a CDL.

http://www.getauto.com/autolinks_cardetail.html?x_dealer_id=AAF5g&vinNum=3FRNF75RX5V110057

Looks like about a $100K investment.......... payup