French drain/catch basin question?

[captaingreen]

I am trying to solve a drainage issue at my home and am a drainage rookie. I have done a search and read alot of info. but not exactly what I was looking for or maybe I just need a step by step instructional. All of the lawns on our street have a side yard that slopes down then flattens to the adjoining neighbor. My neighbors lawn slopes down to my flat side yard, and of course leaves a fair amount of standing water after rain, we just had 3" over the past 3 days. The back lawn has a low spot across it that flows to a drainage pit that flows to the street. My idea is to put in a combination of surface drains where the water seems to pool up and run the pipe out to the rock pit. Does this sound right? The materials I found at my local hardware store were 4" flexible drain pipe, a "T" which would to up from the pipe to a 4" drain cover. Should I use pipe with holes to further help with drainage, do I put landscape fabric and rock under and above the pipe once buried then cover with soil and sod?

[NickN]

You've got the right idea.
Use the perforated drain tile.(arrange so the drain holes are on the bottom)
Put your catch basin in the center of your low area.
Yes,use gravel under and around the tile to aid drainage and even around your catch basin.
Cover your drain tile with a tile sock to keep debris out before installing..Also,cover your gravel and pipe with a soil seperating fabric.Just run it the length of the ditch and then throw your soil on top.
Pipe needs to drop 1" for every 10-12'.
If your running the drain tile a far distance,install a cleanout or two.

[captaingreen]

Thank you NickN, the total lenth will be approx. 90', how many cleanout's should I use? Is that something my hardware still will also carry? Also, should I be concerned about leaks where I "T" the pipe up to a drain cover or area's where I have a connection? Thank you so much for the help.

[activelandscaping]

captaingreen,

What type of soil do you have there?

Regards,
Active

[captaingreen]

We have heavy clay. The contractor brought in some good top soil to finish grade with, but under that is a whole bunch of compacted clay soil.

[NickN]

Hi captain,
Only one cleanout would be needed for 90 feet.I'd put it 30 feet from the end.
A cleanout is simply a "T"(upside down) with the top installed at grade and a cap put on it.If the pipe becomes clogged(leaves) for some reason(most likely near the end)
you can take off the cap and run a snake to clean it out.
As for the connection of the other "T" you're talking about,use medium quickset pvc cement.You can also use this to secure your connections of pipe together and then wrap the pipe connections with duct tape to hold them in place.
Remember,you're not going to have high pressure on these lines,so you don't have to worry too much about leaks.
As for the catch basin,I'd use a 12" x 12" basin.It will have an area in the bottom(Basin) that will collect heavy debris that might fall in.Like rocks,acorns,etc.,,Then you can clean it out every so often to prevent your line clogging.

[activelandscaping]

In a clay soil you don't want to use any type of sock or woven fabric. I must have pulled out miles of that sock covered 4" perf, after the clay had waterproofed it.
Drain tile should have a slope of 2%, roughly 2' drop/100' distance. This means you would need to dig down 1'6" at the start of the run and have a end run depth of about 3'6" ( do what you can ) this will give you a 2% slope.

The trench should be about 6" wide. Line the bottom of the trench with about 2" of pea stone. Place a Y fitting at the beginning of the run and another about 1' from the end of the run, this will allow you to put a hose down into the tile and flush out any debris.

Next place a snap-on end-cap at the beginning and end of the run. The end-cap's should have 15 or so 1/8" holes drilled into them. You will need to pot out a 12" diameter hole where the end-caps come to rest, this will form a fast through drain when filled with pea-stone.

Next place pipe into the top of the Y fitting's to form your risers, the risers get cut flush with the soil level. Next place a Internal End Plug ( will have holes in it ) on the riser at the beginning of the run and a snap cap on the riser at the end run. Center your tile and backfill with pea-stone to a depth of 6" over the top of the tile. Then backfill the rest with a good peat/loam mix, do not use the clay spoils and do not use anything but pea-stone around the pipe. If you have any questions feel free to contact me.

Best of luck,
Active

[activelandscaping]

As for the connection of the other "T" you're talking about,use medium quickset pvc cement.You can also use this to secure your connections of pipe together and then wrap the pipe connections with duct tape to hold them in place.

NickN,
I think captaingreen is talking about 4" perferated drain tile, the black stuff that uses snap fitting's. It's probably best not to use any glue, probably melt it. I know the PVC, white with 1" holes, drain that uses solvent bonded fittings. The PVC drain would not be the best choice for this application.

Best regards,
Active

[NickN]

Active,
perforated drain tile will not melt from the pvc cement.Also,I disagree with your comments regarding the tile sock as well the soil seperating fabric and pea stone is not the only stone to use.5/8" crushed limestone will work fine and is used often for septic tank lines.
Your setting him up for a disaster when those stones and dirt fill in his pipe.His pipe needs to be covered in stone,then a seperating fabric on top of that,then his soil.

[stxkyboy]

PVC should be used...the black stuff collapses and is much more likely to clog. Plus although it might be a little harder to work with it is easier to ensure a downward grade that doesnt have any humps or valleys with white (preferablly green) PVC

[captaingreen]

Thank you guys for all of your help. NickN you may have answered my next question already. I called my local quarry and they said they have 1/2" and 3/4" clean limestone. What would you reccomend for this application? Also as far as the catch basin, can I put a 4" drain cap on top of that so there isn't a big grate showing in the lawn, I haven't got to see one of these (catch basin) at the hardware store yet.

[activelandscaping]

Active,
perforated drain tile will not melt from the pvc cement.Also,I disagree with your comments regarding the tile sock as well the soil seperating fabric and pea stone is not the only stone to use.5/8" crushed limestone will work fine and is used often for septic tank lines.
Your setting him up for a disaster when those stones and dirt fill in his pipe.His pipe needs to be covered in stone,then a separating fabric on top of that,then his soil.

NickN,
There are numerous articles that indicate filter fabric/drain sock should not be used with clay/silt soils, the filter material will clog and fail. Here is one: Subsurface and Surface Drainage for Recreational Areas (http://www.ustctba.com/guidelines-track/section1e.html)

1) It has been my experience that pea stone provides the best combination of filtration and perk rate.
2) Why would you want to glue pipe designed for snap fittings, isn't life hard enough?
3) Septic fields must have a much higher perk rate than clay, not to mention slow discharge tile and surface drain tile have much different requirements.

captaingreen,
I was in charge of Irrigation and Drainage at a 270 acre golf course for 6 years. The entire course was clay and muck soil. I know what works, and what doesn't. The guidelines NickN outlined simply won't last in clay/silt soil.

The method I described is widely used, where clay soils exist, and has a long track record of success. I agree that your being set up for a disaster, but not by me.

BTW,
You indicated, in your first post, that the 4" pipe you bought was " flexible ". This would be black corrugated pipe, the hole perforations run the diameter of the pipe, there wouldn't be any way to align them on the bottom.

Best of luck,
Active

[Coffeecraver]

I also would not use the sock
I was hired to install a drain at the back of a clients house.
The grade was comming down hill from the yard to the house.
and the water was sitting at the foundation.
This is new construction within 10 years.
I called Mrs.Uttility they marked the lines then I started to dig.

I discovered that a drain had been dug with a backhoe up near the house
The drain was 18" wide and 75' long. It was covered with the sock material all of the 18",the clay soil had compacted on the top of it only allowing slow drainage.The water was sitting on the top of it in several places.

I uncovered the entire drain and removed the sock. I installed a box at the bottom of the downspouts,then connected the boxes to the main drain.It was 4" black drain tile.I added Pea gravel as needed. The stone from the original drain was 18" wide at ground level.

I installed flashing on the under-pinning of the deck and the foundation wall so I could build the grade up a 7". Then I installed Railroad ties between the yard and foundation, installed topsoil within 3' of the house ,created plant beds.All of this was on top of the 18"drain. I added helleri holly and a few of the clients favorites.Then applyed mulch and was done.

After Gaston and several other hard rains the drain is working great,the client is very happy with the outcome.

That sock and the clay prevented the drain from working.The drain may have worked ok in the clay without the sock.

[NickN]

<i>You indicated, in your first post, that the 4" pipe you bought was " flexible ". This would be black corrugated pipe, the hole perforations run the diameter of the pipe, there wouldn't be any way to align them on the bottom.</i>
Wrong again.The black corrugated with holes running the diameter of the pipe is leach pipe,not drainage pipe.Black corrugated drainage pipe has 4 sets of holes ran along the bottom of the pipe.There is a line marked the length of the pipe to indicate the top.
You guys are talking about throwing 2" of gravel down,then your pipe,then your soil.2" of gravel isn't nearly enough.The pipe needs to covered in gravel(That's why the soil will not even come into contact with the sock)
Then you say don't use a soil seperating fabric.Where do you think your soil is going when it gets wet?It's going to filter into your 2" of rock.
With the pipe lined with the sock,gravel covering the pipe,and a soil seperating fabric( a real soil seperating fabric,not landscaping fabric) layed down before covering with dirt,there is no way the soil will clog the sock.It won't get close to it.
BTW,soil seperating fabric is more pourous than landscaping fabric.
As for the glue,have you ever had to run a motorized snake through a pipe?They aren't gentle.No secure pipe joints and the snake will cause them to disconnect.The corrugated pipe doesn't snap together very tightly.

[NickN]

Captain,
Go with the 3/4" limestone.Put a layer down,then install your drain tile(WITH THE SOCK),and backfill beside and over the pipe with more 3/4.Fill it until you're 4-5" below grade and then install your soil seperating fabric.(It will actually say Soil Seperating fabric)Don't use landscaping fabric.Now lay in your soil on top of that and install your sod a little above grade to allow for settling.
As for your basin,you can get a small one that allows for a 4" grate,but don't just install a 4" grate to your pipe.The basin will allow the heavy material that flows into the pipe to settle to the bottom instead of going into the pipe.A 4" grate and basin will just take longer to catch run-off.

[activelandscaping]

NickN,
It is apparent that you haven't done much tile work, in clay or anything else. This is, undoubtedly, a good thing.

The end.


Active

[activelandscaping]

I discovered that a drain had been dug with a backhoe up near the house
The drain was 18" wide and 75' long. It was covered with the sock material all of the 18",the clay soil had compacted on the top of it only allowing slow drainage.The water was sitting on the top of it in several places.

I uncovered the entire drain and removed the sock. I installed a box at the bottom of the downspouts,then connected the boxes to the main drain.It was 4" black drain tile.I added Pea gravel as needed. The stone from the original drain was 18" wide at ground level.

I installed flashing on the under-pinning of the deck and the foundation wall so I could build the grade up a 7". Then I installed Railroad ties between the yard and foundation, installed topsoil within 3' of the house ,created plant beds.All of this was on top of the 18"drain. I added helleri holly and a few of the clients favorites.Then applied mulch and was done.

After Gaston and several other hard rains the drain is working great,the client is very happy with the outcome.

That sock and the clay prevented the drain from working.The drain may have worked ok in the clay without the sock.

Good work Coffeecraver, :)

The area where I work is mostly clay/silt. The filter sock seems like a good idea to many people, it's inexpensive and reported to work well when used within it's design parameters. Unfortunately the design parameters are often left out by those praising it.

The problem with geo-fabric coverings and filter sock is that: when they fail the only way to resolve the problem is the way you did, by digging up the entire length of the tile run and replacing it. When useing rounded aggregate envelope it is rarely neccesary to excavate the tile in order to service it.

I have seen numerous " spot fixes " where a short section was dug up, the sock removed, and stone brought up to the surface, much like a french drain. The spot fix method doesn't work because the high surface velocity of the water, as it rushes to the stone riser, displaces the clay fines which quickly infiltrate and bind the stone. This can be a royal PITA to remove.
Your use of a rounded aggregate envelope to resist compaction and binding should provide years of serviceability, and long term client satisfaction. :)

Regards,

Active

[carlriv]

Just a thought, you want to move the water from a low spot to a lower spot, where it will then drain to the street, right......

Why do you want any sort of perf pipe?

You want to transport the water, not pick it up, or leach it out on the way.

Correct?

Solid pipe with no need for a sock, perforations, or peastone.

Am I wrong??

[Rebel7695]

I didn't read every post closely but read most of them... Something we have experienced is that the catch basin, IF NOT concreted in, will float out of the hole.. that is something i haven't heard anyone mention. It happened to us a couple of times so from then on we spend a little extra $ and put a bag of concrete around it to hold it in. Anyone else every experienced this?

[captaingreen]

Fella's I appreciate all of your help but, I'm beggining to get confused. Carlriv you are correct, I am wanting to move the water from a low spot to the street. I have no doubt you guys know what you're talking about, maybe it's cause you guys are from opposite parts of the country Alabama and Michigan have several variables, and I'm right in the middle of both you guys.

[activelandscaping]

Fella's I appreciate all of your help but, I'm beggining to get confused. Carlriv you are correct, I am wanting to move the water from a low spot to the street. I have no doubt you guys know what you're talking about, maybe it's cause you guys are from opposite parts of the country Alabama and Michigan have several variables, and I'm right in the middle of both you guys.

I can appreciate your situation, so I will give you one final piece of advice. Find a good golf course in your area and ask if you can speak with the superintendent. Describe your problem and follow his advice. Drainage is a critical component of any golf course and he will be able to give you the best solution, remember to mention that you are in heavy clay soil.

Best of luck,
Active

[Coffeecraver]

"I am wanting to move the water from a low spot to the street."

If you are moving water from one area that gets flooded from time to time
you could use a perferated pipe set in gravel, the trench has gravel in it which water will flow through.


If you are moving a main source of water, from one area to another the a solid drain tile pipe set in gravel would be used,and run to the desired location.

[Fvstringpicker]

My recommendation in Georgia, the red clay capital, is to line the trench with soil separating fabric, place 6 inches of gravel in the bottom, place pipe on top of the gravel, w/sock, place 6 inches of gravel around the sides and on top of the pipe, cover the top layer of gravel with soil separating fabric, and cover the trench with top soil at least 4 inches. Both the gravel and the pipe will drain the water. The 2% grade is fine.

Good luck,

Fvstringpicker, CPA, P.E., D.G.B.P (damn good banjo picker) or so i'm told

[captaingreen]

What size gravel do you use Fvstringpicker? and do you glue your fittings? P.S. Can you play "Jerusalem's Ridge", that is the song that first got me picking.

[D Felix]

I guess I'm middle of the road on this one... Drainage isn't hard to do, but it's also not hard to screw it up.

First and foremost, make sure you have flow in your trench. If you don't, you will have water sitting in it. Level is OK, but as long as you are not trying to make the water run uphill, you should be fine. Get a laser level to help with this. It doesn't matter what kind of pipe you put in, if it doesn't have flow, it won't work!

Now as for how to do it, I've done it both ways that have been described. Active said not to use fabric. I've done it that way on the Purdue North course. I'd hate to know how many thousands of feet of pipe I put in the ground there 7 years ago when it was built. We trenched out fingers on the greens, made sure they would flow, removed ALL loose soil (that sucked), then put in pea gravel in the bottom of the trench, added the pipe, filled the trench the rest of the way, then 4 more inches of pea gravel over the entire green before the greens mix was put on. That was in heavy clay soil. The excess water drains down through the ~14" of greens mix (80% sand, 20% peat), through the pea gravel, finds the fingers, then out it goes. I doubt much more than 1/4-1/2" of the clay surface is wet at any given time....

On the flip side, wall drainage is usually perforated pipe surrounded by clean limestone that has been wrapped with non-woven, needle-punched, geotextile that acts as a soil/gravel separator.

Another project that required drainage recieved sock pipe installed in a trench dug into heavy clay. Good sandy loam soil was then put in over the sock pipe with no gravel surrounding it. It drains well....

I've also dug along too many foundations that had pea fill and silt mixed together. So, I guess my suggestion is to use a geotextile fabric with a high rate of permeability to wrap the trench. Clean limestone or pea gravel shouldn't matter.

Remember it's the trench that actually does the draining until there is sufficient water to rise up into the tile. The tile is merely a void space to allow for more efficient movement of the water when it gets high enough in the trench. This is why the trench needs to have flow. Don't try to make the pipe flow by adjusting it with the gravel, it will still cause puddling in the bottom of the trench.

However, if all you have is a low spot in the lawn that collects water you really don't have a need for any other subsurface drainage. I'd simply install a catch basin in the low spot, make sure the surrounding lawn drained to it, and run a non-perforated pipe out to daylight somewhere. No sense in making things harder than they really are!

Hope this helps some!

Oh, and Nick, I have yet to see perforated corrogated pipe without slits all the way around it..... I suppose it's just not available here, but I've been many places that carry perf pipe and all of it has slits all the way around it....


Dan

[captaingreen]

Thanks alot guys! I think I've got this all figured out now. As soon as I finish my fall cleanups I am going to get started on this project, can't wait. It's amazing how much I have learned since I have purchased my first home. Heck, I think I have learned more in my own back yard than anywhere else. Thanks again!

[activelandscaping]

I guess I'm middle of the road on this one... Drainage isn't hard to do, but it's also not hard to screw it up.

I always tell people " drainage isn't brain surgery, but it can seem like it if you screw it up ".

My experience with clay is limited to the MI blue variety. It is possible that other clay soil type's are suitable for sock or fabric. I am trying to dig up some pic's of us pulling sock out of the middle of a clay nightmare, know I saved them just not sure where.

My personal experience with sock filter has been purely negative. The previously installed drain w/filter sock had not been marked on the drainage layout, a big no-no at a golf course, and we had to wait for it to fail before we could remove it. The surface drain's we installed using pea-stone are all still functioning. When installing surface drains the turf root systems will hold the soil in place much more effectively than any product can keep the soil out. Pea stone has the right pore space to provide good capillary action, this will actually draw water down into the tile envelope.

I worked for American Golf, a few different course's, before going over to Country Club of Detroit. CCD is going on 100yrs old. We had every type of tile you could imagine. Octagonal clay, round glazed clay and corrugated all tied in together over the years with everything from cement to fernco's. Out of all the drain problems at the course the filter sock was the most difficult to fix. The sock would become impregnated with clay and then (stretch/settle) and incorporate itself into the surrounding clay.

Well, anyhoot, that's why I don't use or recommend the filter material. If you thought installing it was a PITA wait until you have to pull a thousand yards out.

Regards,
Active