Fertilizer Program HELP ME

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Ok. Im triing to come up with some programs for next year as i will have my MDA Lic in April. Will somone from the MD area help me with this or recommend someone who will.

I would buy my products from lesco in millersville or in upper marlboro. the 10-10-10 parts are just a guide. fill in with what you believe i should use.

Thanks Alot.

Jason Rohrbaugh
Crew Cut Enterprises

______________________________________________
Basic Fertilizer Program
4 Applications
1. Spring Application March 10-10-10
2. Early Summer Application May 10-10-10
3. Late Summer Application July 10-10-10
4. Fall Application September 10-10-10

Premium Fertilizer Program
6 Applications
Spring 1 pre-emergence with Fertilizer Feb 128-5-12
Spring 2 March – April 10-10-10
Mid Summer Application June 10-10-10
Late Summer Application July 10-10-10
Fall Application September 10-10-10
Winter Application November 10-10-10

No Program Available? We Can Custom Build a Fertilizer Program for You. Organic Program. No Problem. Just Ask

Fertilizer Pricing
1. 0-5000 Sq foot = $42.00 Minimum Plus $10.00 per 1000 square feet

Aeration Program
1. 0-5000 Sq foot = $100.00 Minimum Plus $10.00 Per 1000 Square Feet .01 sq ft

Slice Seeding

Over Seeding

[Hamons]

Ok -- Good timing you have the winter to really come up with a good program.

You have two choices. One -- just use the standard Lesco program. Charge bare minimum and just try to get the grass to grow.

Or..... set yourself apart by really researching a good program. Commit yourself to growing the BEST grass in town. It will require a fair amount of studying and work to stay up woith latest research.

Which direction do you think you are leaning -- I can give you a basic Lesco program for cool season grass in ZOne 5/6 or can help guide you in designing your own custom program.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

I would love the Basic Lesco Program. I was looking on their web site and could not locate it.

I figured the winter time would make a great time to come up with a plan and in feb ill start marketing it.

Also I will start with the basic program but would love to learn and design my own program, but doesnt that require taking soil plugs and then anaylzing it to decied which route to go from there.

Thanks Jason

[Hamons]

1. MARCH------ Dimension .1% 19-0-6 (.79 lb. N/1000ft2)
2. MAY -------- 21-3-21 (.75 lb. N/1000ft2)
3. JUNE --------24-5-11 (.84 lb. N/1000ft2)
4. SEPTEMBER - 21-3-21 (1 lb. N/1000ft2)
5. NOVEMBER ---32-3-8 (1lb. N/1000ft2)


Now -- this program has a lot of problems. It was what I got from the LEsco dealer the first time I went and talked to them a couple years ago. What problems do you see with it? YOur comments will help start a discussion that we can all learn from.

You will need a design basic system that you will then adjust to each individual lawn based on soil tests.

[Rwise10230]

1. MARCH------ Dimension .1% 19-0-6 (.79 lb. N/1000ft2)
2. MAY -------- 21-3-21 (.75 lb. N/1000ft2)
3. JUNE --------24-5-11 (.84 lb. N/1000ft2)
4. SEPTEMBER - 21-3-21 (1 lb. N/1000ft2)
5. NOVEMBER ---32-3-8 (1lb. N/1000ft2)


Now -- this program has a lot of problems. It was what I got from the LEsco dealer the first time I went and talked to them a couple years ago. What problems do you see with it? YOur comments will help start a discussion that we can all learn from.

You will need a design basic system that you will then adjust to each individual lawn based on soil tests.

Jeff, I'm not sure what zone that particular program is designed for. However, I would not recomend it in zone 7 for fine fescue.

1. Excessive N applications in the summer months (unless irrigated)
2. No lime mentioned anywhere (assuming soil tests indicate the need)
3. I'd prefer to see some iron in the winter and summer apps
4. Fall apps ignore the need for root development. In fact, the entire program is all N application without regard for K & P apps
5. An earlier spring app of dimension with a follow up app would be appropriate

I could go on.....but, what works for one may not work for another!

[dishboy]

Jeff, I'm not sure what zone that particular program is designed for. However, I would not recomend it in zone 7 for fine fescue.

1. Excessive N applications in the summer months (unless irrigated)
2. No lime mentioned anywhere (assuming soil tests indicate the need)
3. I'd prefer to see some iron in the winter and summer apps
4. Fall apps ignore the need for root development. In fact, the entire program is all N application without regard for K & P apps
5. An earlier spring app of dimension with a follow up app would be appropriate

I could go on.....but, what works for one may not work for another!


Are we looking at the same program, that looks like a ton of K to me?

[Hamons]

THIS IS NOT THE PROGRAM I USE. This is the program Lesco hands out.

Well, I am in zone 5/6 -- so I'm sure Zone 7 would be a little different. But -- this plan is not a good one for any zone. My intention was that by disussing why this program was bad -- we could help Jason -- and others -- design a program far superior than "the basic Lesco program"

I agree with all of your points. Could we use those same products, but arranged more appropriately?

[DLS1]

1. MARCH------ Dimension .1% 19-0-6 (.79 lb. N/1000ft2)
2. MAY -------- 21-3-21 (.75 lb. N/1000ft2)
3. JUNE --------24-5-11 (.84 lb. N/1000ft2)
4. SEPTEMBER - 21-3-21 (1 lb. N/1000ft2)
5. NOVEMBER ---32-3-8 (1lb. N/1000ft2)


Now -- this program has a lot of problems. It was what I got from the LEsco dealer the first time I went and talked to them a couple years ago. What problems do you see with it? YOur comments will help start a discussion that we can all learn from.

You will need a design basic system that you will then adjust to each individual lawn based on soil tests.


I talked to the Lesco dealer in Independence, Mo at the beginning of the year and that is off from what they are recommending. They are saying....
Early Spring 19-0-6 Dimension 30% PPSCU
Late Spring 19-0-6 Dimension 30% PPSCU
Summer 14-0-14 Mach 2 30% PPSCU (season long grub control)
Early Fall 32-3-8 30% PPSCU
Late Fall 35-3-5 quick release fertilizer

[lawndude2004]

your fertilization program depends on what type of grass your client has. If they have cool season grasses, then you want to fert in sept with a starter fert when you aerate and overseed. In the beginning of nov a second app of fert 32-3-8 should be applied to the cool season grass to boost strength. we usually apply a final app in dec with lots of potash and pre em to winterize. when february arrives put down a final fert with minimal nitrogen and lots of pre emergence. this has produced great results for us becaues it does not feed summer grasses making them weaker and weaker each year.

[Hamons]

DLS -- In my opinion -- that is an even worse program. Question is why?

[tremor]

Another angle where hi-N concerns abound. No or low Phos. All Gran. ferts.

19-0-6 (.75N) Combo Pre
14-0-14 (.5N) Combo Merit
13-0-6 (.5N) Combo Talstar
24-0-12 (.75N) Straight
18-0-18 (you decide N) Straight

[DLS1]

DLS -- In my opinion -- that is an even worse program. Question is why?

Okay I'll bite, why?

[PR Fect]

We are in Zone 4/5. I like DLS's program more than that Lesco program. Here is what I do not like. To much N, to much K, No micros, cool season grass needs no added N in the summer. We have a 5 step program. We only fert in the spring and Fall.
19-0-6 + 1% Dimension April
32-3-8 + 2% Iron Late Aug
20-6-12 + micros Late Oct

Now like I said we do a 5 step. We spray broad leaf herbicide in May and Sept. We do not apply nothing in June, July, Aug, when cool season grasses are under stress.

[bobbygedd]

now i know i'm just a dopey drunken high scool dropout pot head, but, doesn;t soil type, and amount of irrigation matter? you guys are spitting out programs, based on zones, but what about irrigation? would you apply the same program to a client who tells you they water 3 days a week, heavy? the same program to a client who says they water 5 days a week in 30 min sessions? the same program to a client who says they will not water at all?

[Pilgrims' Pride]

PR Fect

Isnt Appleton Wisconsin where Jack Bradley (The navy corpsman who raised the flag on Iwo Jima) is from?

[PR Fect]

Yes, the program I stated is just for the average lawn in my area. 45-55% bluegrasses, 30-40% Rye grasses, 10-15% fine fescue. No irrigation. 20-30% shade, 70-80% full sun. Clay based soil with an inch or so organic mater (black dirt) near the top. PH around 7. Change some of these, and you need to adjust your program but this will work for around 80-90% of lawns here. And yes, Jack Bradley is a home town hero. Most think he was a fellow jarhead, not many know that he was a corpsman. If I remember right he is the guy in the back pushing the Marines who have the flag pole.

[Pilgrims' Pride]

Yes PR

I think you are right Doc Bradley was in the back helping to raise the flag.
You mention that many people think he was another Marine.
I wonder how many younger kids these days ever heard of Iwo or some of them WW II for that matter.

I guess that belongs in another thread.

[tremor]

We seem to be confusing things a bit. There are different ways to treat fertility with diciplines based loosley on longterm crop & soil goals that exceed the average retention of a commercial Lawn Care customer.

In other words, do LCOs get paid to "feed the turf" or "feed the soil". Don't pretend for a minute that they are one & the same.

I'm curious what nutrient rates Jeff Hamon would consider "good" & whether those rates are good for a business, good for a lawn, or good for a soil.

Steve

[Ric]

now i know i'm just a dopey drunken high scool dropout pot head, but, doesn;t soil type, and amount of irrigation matter? you guys are spitting out programs, based on zones, but what about irrigation? would you apply the same program to a client who tells you they water 3 days a week, heavy? the same program to a client who says they water 5 days a week in 30 min sessions? the same program to a client who says they will not water at all?


BooBy

For a Drop out Drunken Pothead, You make a very good point. With out proper watering and drainage, No plant can express itself to the fullest. Coated Fertilizer is generally released by water. Therefore a coated material should be used during times of infrequent rainfall. Yes less growth with less water and therefore less fertilizer per year. One of my customer requirements is Irrigation. No irrigation No Ric. No Ric = bad looking lawn.

Now My biggest problem is in the spring dry season when Mrs Jones gets her water bill on her way to the Country Club in her BMW 740. She see it is gone up an extra $ 50.00 this month and just can't afford to pay that and shoot golf 4 times a week.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

there is no 1 all fit program
weather and water or lack of it make a huge impact on what workes and what doesent.
u also have to look at what kind of client u r working for
the cheep just make it green with go go juice and weed killer
or the client that wants a nice lawn year round and spends the money to reseed and add the things the lawn needs to keep it healthy
u have to decide what customer u r going after and set up a program for them

[Dman1214]

Tremor u make an excellent point, as lawn care professionals, we must be sound businessmen. To be sucessful i believe u must balance the agronomics of the business with the economics of the business. in order to accomplish that u must formulate a business plan that identifies your goals. then, and only then can u match a program with your ecomomies.

[DLS1]

I like DLS's program more than that Lesco program.

I guess I wasn't clear but that was Lesco's program I listed that the Independence Mo office gave me as a suggestion which is about 20 miles from Hamons in Overland Park Kansas.

Lets be honest here who really takes the time to setup special programs for each yard? All the yards I do looked pretty good already with no bare spots and most have fairly thick grass.

[tremor]

There is a very small niche group of Estate manager type LCOs around here that I deal with who soil test & custome tailor programs to different segments of a single dwellings grounds just as a Golf Super would treat each fairway & green individually.

But in terms of mass consumer appeal, this is neither practical nor profitable.

From a marketting perspective it sure sounds good. But the applicator would need 4 bins on his truck for storgae of bulk material for custom on-site blending. LOL

Soluble N such as Urea
Slow N such as Poly-Scu or Meth-Urea
P source such as DAP or MAP
K source such as SOP or MOP or better yet, a bin for each.

Now a soil test in hand upon arrival, the LCO would review the recent & projected weather against the irrigation program (if available). Then we'd look at the grass types present & weigh all the data against the clients goals & the mowing schedule. Now the computer controlled on-board blender would dispense the raw materials into a harmonious blend right into the hopper.


Wake up call! Who's going to pay for all this?

It isn't rocket science guys. We're growing grass. 4-0-2 is adequate on most Northeastern & Midwest soils over a growing season. The move to restrict or remove Phosphorus isn't going to hurt anything except the pockets of the Phosphorus producers as long as the pH is kept in order.

Surplus Potash isn't going to be luxury used by turf so there is little harm in sneaking over the edge.

Key your Nitrogen rates to the most prevalent grass types & err on the side of the most drought stress you'll likely encounter & everyone is happy.

[DLS1]

Hey tremor I like your answer.

I go by the Economics 101 class of
the “point of diminishing returns” is a supposed point at which additional effort or investment (i.e. soil test, special formulated fertilizer) in a given endeavor will not yield correspondingly increasing results (i.e. more money from the customer).


I am still waiting to see what Hamon says is the best program for the Midwest.

[timturf]

This could be an interesting thread!!!!!!!!!!1

More of my thoughts tonite, if the blanket blank leafs don't kill me!!!!!!!!!

Now I remember why I only mow only 9 yards, the leafs just about kill me!!

[DLS1]

I created a thread today at the Lesco forum how did they come up with their recommended 5 step program for the Midwest. Now that could be interesting.

[jdwilliams1]

ok.....I have searched the site and cannot find forum on lesco site, help me out please. Thanks

[tremor]

We don't have a forum at our own website. I think the one we're talking about is the Commercial forums here at Lawnsite:

http://www.lawnsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=102

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "the program for the midwest".

We don't really offer one "program". We build programs based on individual needs. There are trends that get set by local consumption in our Service Centers. The managers are likely to stock primarily the "local favorite". But this doesn't bind anyone to just one flavor. Talk with the staff about special ordering a different product if that is what you need.

Of the 120 Lawn Care customers I deal with, I'd say I book about 10 different Round-1 materials between Pre-M, Dimension, & Stonewall. Then if we factor in different fertilizer analysis, that number grows still more: 13-2-5, 15-3-7 Bio-Solids, 19-0-6, 19-3-7, 19-0-19 Mini Fairway Prill, etc.

Am I missing something here?

[PR Fect]

Crew Cut, are you still there? Taking this all in? A very good tread you started. You see, you can sell a program that will make their lawn just look a little better than the guy next door. ( By the way the guy next doors lawn is not going to die into this bare dust bowl because no one puts down any fertilizer) Then you can also sell a program with a bunch of stuff the lawn really does not need, but will not hurt, and you and the Lesco guy, and the fert manufacture make more money. My point was not to over sell and have a program that will harm your clients lawn. The first Lesco program or the second Lesco program ( sorry for the mistake DLS) seems to me to over apply N. I often see gray slime mold in shaded areas and/or yellowing of the turf when this is done. I have a few I mow that TGCL sprays 7 or more times a season. Is that really helping?

[timturf]

Where is hamons?

Guess I'm one of those estate lco tremor is talking about!

Now I have a basic program built that all clients receive IF THEIR soil chemistry is correct! If not, I modify my basic program to correct any defiencies! I believe most national lco have a basic program, and the salesmen or applicator tries to up sell other options!

What do we need for a basic fert program?

1. plant hardy zone and heat index zone
2. type of grass grown
3. desire level of maintence, high, medium, or low
4. university recommendations on annuel lbs of n/m
5. ratio of nutrients, ex. 3-1-2 of n, p, k
6. clipping returned or bagged?
7. type of nitrogen sources
8. What % of nitrogen will be slow release for year

I'm tired, so that will have to be a good start. I know some of you have already made some of these points! So what have I forgot? help me out, Groundskprs, tremor, hamons, hertige, ric, evirogreen, and others.

I think we should use crewcutenterprise as an example!
Remember, we are building a basic fert program, assuming soil chemistry is correct. Just worrying about fert, not any pest controls! They can be plugged in later.

[Enviro Green]

Basic Fertilizer Program
4 Applications
1. Spring Application March 10-10-10
2. Early Summer Application May 10-10-10
3. Late Summer Application July 10-10-10
4. Fall Application September 10-10-10

Premium Fertilizer Program
6 Applications
Spring 1 pre-emergence with Fertilizer Feb 128-5-12
Spring 2 March – April 10-10-10
Mid Summer Application June 10-10-10
Late Summer Application July 10-10-10
Fall Application September 10-10-10
Winter Application November 10-10-10

The first problem, of many, with this program is the timing of the delivery of N, not counting the soil chemistry, turf type, etc, all of which should be accounted for, but I think the timing using 10-10-10 quick release will be problematic with this program, to start with Tim. Seconldly, the ratio of fertilizer is off, 1-1-1. What else?

EG

[DLS1]

We don't have a forum at our own website. I think the one we're talking about is the Commercial forums here at Lawnsite:

http://www.lawnsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=102

I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "the program for the midwest".

We don't really offer one "program".

The Lesco forum I am talking about is the one here on lawnsite.

Tremor I over generalized when I said midwest. I actually mean the program sheet I got from the Independence Mo office. I assume the Independence office gets lots of new LCO's that have their applicators license and it is easier just to give the LCO applicators some type of general guideline sheet they recommend for the 5 step program.

[timturf]

eviro green,
he wasn't using 10-10-10, he want us to fill in the anaylsis!

[Hamons]

Where have I been? Well, for starters I have been trying to unclog my sewer main line. Wanna help?

Also I wanted some others to chime in – some great comments so far. I think this thread is really hitting at the core of the challenge before LCO’s. How to balance price and results. You can go to both extremes. One is to spoon feed the turf with exact quantities of nutrients on a weekly basis that would provide ideal nutrition at all times for the lco and contrast that with someone who shows up every 8 weeks need it or not and dumps some “stuff” on their lawn and then drives off.

I have decided to take on the higher end side of things. I do soil test each and every client and adjust my standard program for their lawn.

My program is based on the assumption that I want to give the soil around 3.5#’s of N per year with atleast 75% of that coming from natural organic based materials. I then shoot for 2# of K. If density is poor I will boost these numbers up and give around 4# of N and 3# of K. I put down very little Phos on established lawns. This is on my fescue lawns – 85-90% of the lawns I treat. I will also boost these numbers if clippings are collected.

The primary product I have been using lately is a 10-2-8 product with a late season 21-3-7 product.

Restarting ourselves back to Crew-cut and helping him – and others – design their own systems. Lets start with his 4 – application program. Lets all answer some questions.

Lets start with Applications #1 –

Early Spring – What should he be looking for in a fertilizer? What nutrients? What form (soluble or slow release)? What rate? These questions are somewhat universal for COOL SEASON GRASS.

Next – we’ll look at the summer application.

[timturf]

Hope you got it unpluged? I also think you had the wrong proroties (sp)

[DLS1]

Lets start with his 4 – application program. Lets all answer some questions.

Lets start with Applications #1 –

Early Spring – What should he be looking for in a fertilizer? What nutrients? What form (soluble or slow release)? What rate? These questions are somewhat universal for COOL SEASON GRASS.

Next – we’ll look at the summer application.

Hey Hamons not trying to be mean-spirited but I know you are a full-time teacher and trying to get people to learn new things, but how about give us what your program is and we can go from their. Really don't like playing question and answer time like another lawn site.

The question and answer drags it out forever and frankly I loose interest since I got other thinks to do in my life.

[Dman1214]

what i find extremely frustrating is that the large manufacturers only build a few products to choose from when combined with a control product. For example, the choices for a fert/deminsion product are limited - the only agronomicly sound ones are mini prills. it's even worse when it comes to fert/merit combos. for the lco who wants to provide a higher quality fertility program he is somewhat hamstrung.

[Hamons]

I could tell you exactly what my program is ---- no problem -- However, it too is flawed and I am still trying to make it even better.

This "question and answer thing" is hopefullya process where you and I will both be able to develop better plans -- that will make us MORE MONEY.

[Hamons]

I could tell you exactly what my program is ---- no problem -- However, it too is flawed and I am still trying to make it even better.

This "question and answer thing" is hopefullya process where you and I will both be able to develop better plans -- that will make us MORE MONEY.

I agree with the difficulty with combo products -- however, i don't blame the manufac. -- they will make whatever they can sell -- problem is people are buying 19-0-6 for $15/bag by the pallet load every march.

Last year I used 15-1-10 organic based dimension fert that got from a blender. I didn't like it all that well bescause it used MOP and it had very little slow release. The best preemergent I have found is sold by RegalChem --but at around $40 a bag -- it expensive. But it uses UF as its carrier --- perfect for spring. I am considering using Lescos 14-0-22 SOP and 100% PPSCU this spring. At 3.8#/1000 it would put down about .5N and .8K. I would like this products results.

[Runner]

Ok, I'm going to chime in, here. Hamons, see, the thing is, is what you are doing is concentrating on a higher potash in crucial growing stages that the potash will get the most use and effect. This pretty much coincides with what WE discussed before. What you are doing is establishing a thicker, more vigorous turf stand that also will have a much higher trigger pressure. THIS is the sort of thing that stands out from many other companies. You will creat a turf that when people step out of their cars, they will look down and go "Wow!" "How do they get that many blades of grass in a square foot?" Many many other companies don't do this. They take the more economic route and concentrate of just "green color" and top growth. This is great for Joe homeowner, because he knows no different. But, once you GIVE him a program like that with higher K, he will then be spoiled. You are ruining him for life, and ruining it for other lawn services if in the event he ends up with someone else in the future. How arte you ruining it for other lawn services? Because when you give someone something nicer than they've ever had, and then when they go to someone else and it goes back to the just so-so standards, it's just not the same. I've seen it happen, and have been called back - even WITH my "higher" prices. Sure, you're paying a little more to give them these other higher nutrients, but it's darn well worth it for wanting to build clientele.

[Hamons]

Joe, what are the critical times for grass to be supplied with potash?

[Ric]

Fellows

I have been staying out of this discussion because Warm Season turf has different demands than Cool Season Turf. As far as K goes I like to use it a lot and in summer. I will go 1 N to 3 K in the summer. In the Fall and Winter I use it 1 to 1. However My big N push comes in the Late Winter for Green up in early spring. My growing season is year round.

Now Tremor makes a real good point about the ECONOMY of Fertilization. Even the BMW crowd really doesn't care about Agronomy. Just Green Lawns for Less Green money. Therefore Fertilizing becomes a Numbers game. I try and balance those factors with an expensive Slow release and a cheap Liquid. Now You must take into account, I deal with Sandy soil and 55 inches of rain per year.

[timturf]

It was crewcutenterprise that ask for the help!

Where are you crewcut?

We need answer from you, so we can help you and others!

[tremor]

So we find ourselves at the juncture of creativity vs economy. Combination products do that to us. Since they save labor, you're going to want them the minute a competitor starts charging less or making more by using combos.

In general (cool season) terms, Potash is applied "pre-stress". Meaning we can condition turf for stressful periods several weeks in advance of an anticipated drought, disease, traffic or cold period. So in residential lawn-care we're forced to predict what & when these events are going to be.

If we knew a sportsfield was looking at a full schedule (most do), we could ramp up K to match N 3 weeks prior to the event.

Likewise the home lawn might play host to a summer wedding reception or Independence Day celebration. So a mid-June 1-0-1 would make sense.

Notice I don't advocate a 1-0-2 ratio in these scenarios. Why? These traffic conditions are likely to cause a mechanical loss of turf canopy. So N will be needed to regrow the lost canopy.

A 1-0-2 ration makes good sense prior to a stress period that won't involve heavy traffic related canopy loss. It could also match needs where N related patch diseases are soon anticipated.

Commercial Lawn Care doesn't lend itself well to custom tailoring fertility programs on a large scale (300-500 customers per applicator) basis. Perhaps I've become jaded by dealing with larger applicators. But these guys can't wake up one morning & decide the weather favors a 1-0-1 ratio so they're going to scrap 20 tons of 24-5-11+Merit & order 14-0-14 instead. At best, my 3200 bag per round customers react to the last seasons results.

We're going to end up back at the old "2 trips across" situation at the rate this thread is moving. Permagreens have reduced the fluid volume applied to turf to the point where almost no one considers tank mixing Merit & Talstar to just the sunny parts of a lawn. Spreading granular straight insecticides or reinforcing pre-emergent gets too confusing for the applicator & will require some very detailed written instructions by the Pesticide Supervisor else the Applicator ends up making illegal pesticide use decisions.

The joint venture material Allectus (Merit & Talstar on 1 granule) might help but if it's applied to fertilizer we're right back to blanket applying a costly combination product. We can already tank mix these 2 materials in a tank.

Lets face it guys. The 2000 customer plus LCO would have to spend a fortune on custom application rigging & training of applicators to do a really "good job" with prescription turf & ornamental maintenance.

It can still be done. But it's a challenge. I gotta get some work done.

[DLS1]

Hey tremor, I will generalize now, but which of the following is better for bluegrass with some fescue lawn and mainly clay soil for the first spring application?

Let me add one more scenario lets say
a. one yard is already real thick and has an irrigation system
b. another yard was fertilized the previous year but the grass is not thick and is thin in spots.

1. 19-0-6
2. 14-0-22

Please match a and b with 1 and 2 for the best first spring fertilization.
From you other posts it sounds like to me that 1 would go with "a" and 2 would go with "b".

[James Cormier]

i just want to say, great post tremor

[Hamons]

Tremor, your post shows the depth of your expereince and we are all lucky we get to share from that. I beleive the goal of this thread was inline with your advice.

We are trying to explore how we create that "base program" that we use with all of our customers. Now -- I do believe this program should be specific to your niche in the market and the ustomers you choose to service. High - end or low end. However, the agronomic principles are the same. I have a friend/competitior who charges $27.95 for any yard up to 8k. He has to make very different choices than I do for my customers since I am often nearly triple that price. However, we often meet and discuss "grass" and we both base our nutrient programs on the same knowledge of what grass needs and when.

I wonder, how regional are the nutritional needs of cool season grasses. Do most LCO's shoot for a annual program that provides 4#N, 1#P and 2# of K? I know that your soil structure would effect it -- but it would seem your nutritional goals would be the same -- that might just change your timing. For instance Ric who works in a sandbox can't expect the nutrients to stick around for very long so he has to apply more often, whereas in my area of high clay -- nutrient holding capacity is not a problem.

I wonder if length of season effects it much. In my area -- Cool season grass usally is dormant from November to sometime in March. BUt...if you had a longer season, you might need more nutrients. not sure.

Crewcut and others -- what are your assumptions about the nutrients needs for your cool season lawns?

[PR Fect]

This post will show the dept of my experience also. I always hoped my common sense would get me where my lack of experience would not. I was taught at the local tec college by a teacher that was a full time superintendent at a golf coarse in a little town near here called Green Bay. He said Bluegrass needs about 6 lbs of N per 1000 sqft per year and that 2/3 of that needs to be put down in the fall. Now thats on a golf coarse with irrigation. I try to get about half that in our clients lawns or 3 lbs N per 1000 sqft per year. 1 lb in the spring 2 lbs in the fall. A good percentage of potash to help the bluegrass hardiness, is half the amount of N. Phosphous I was told is only really important for root growth on new seeded areas. But I believe high P is also good going into winter. I also like 1 or 2 % iron to get that dark green turf. So how am I doing?

[bobbygedd]

i don't know, i usually just use cat litter

[Ric]

i don't know, i usually just use cat litter


BooBy

You are Cat Litter

[Dman1214]

Why doesn't Lesco offer some of the mini combo products in standard size? i understand that u have to market to the masses, but u assume that lcos won't/can't pay/command a higher $ for a superior product. I'm in your area and my RD 1/dimension and either RD2 or 3/merit fertility output are dictated by the limited options of the combos. DMAN1214

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Hey. First off.... Did you read my whole post? Those were base thoughts . I wasnt going to put down 10-10-10 for every app.



The first problem, of many, with this program is the timing of the delivery of N, not counting the soil chemistry, turf type, etc, all of which should be accounted for, but I think the timing using 10-10-10 quick release will be problematic with this program, to start with Tim. Seconldly, the ratio of fertilizer is off, 1-1-1. What else?

EG

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Very Good post ground control.

I would love to give my customers the basic green lawn this year 2005 and then work my way up in mid 2005 or in early 2005 to not just a green nice lawn but healthy and thicker roots.

Any Insite on how to do this

Thanks

Jason

Ok, I'm going to chime in, here. Hamons, see, the thing is, is what you are doing is concentrating on a higher potash in crucial growing stages that the potash will get the most use and effect. This pretty much coincides with what WE discussed before. What you are doing is establishing a thicker, more vigorous turf stand that also will have a much higher trigger pressure. THIS is the sort of thing that stands out from many other companies. You will creat a turf that when people step out of their cars, they will look down and go "Wow!" "How do they get that many blades of grass in a square foot?" Many many other companies don't do this. They take the more economic route and concentrate of just "green color" and top growth. This is great for Joe homeowner, because he knows no different. But, once you GIVE him a program like that with higher K, he will then be spoiled. You are ruining him for life, and ruining it for other lawn services if in the event he ends up with someone else in the future. How arte you ruining it for other lawn services? Because when you give someone something nicer than they've ever had, and then when they go to someone else and it goes back to the just so-so standards, it's just not the same. I've seen it happen, and have been called back - even WITH my "higher" prices. Sure, you're paying a little more to give them these other higher nutrients, but it's darn well worth it for wanting to build clientele.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Early Spring – What should he be looking for in a fertilizer? What nutrients? What form (soluble or slow release)? What rate? These questions are somewhat universal for COOL SEASON GRASS.

Ok... So lets start here... Most lawns are not irrigated. So i would assume slow release. Also. I would soil test if asked by the customer..(whats the cost??) Just basic turn grass green for next year i think would be nice... I have alot on my plate for a 22 year old.

Ok Back to Basics for me..
N = nitrogen.. makes grass green
ph=
K=

Im sorry i am new to fertilizing.

Also Lets back it up...

define - dimension and merit



Ok Answered some of my own questions...
www.fertilizer.com
The Three Main Nutrients (N, P, and K)
Nitrogen (N) is the main nutrient for new, green growth. Plants that are almost all leaf (such as lawn grasses) need plenty of nitrogen, so the first number is especially high in fertilizers for lawns because grass must continously renew itself after mowing. The higher the number, the more nitrogen the fertilizer provides.

Phosphorus (P) promotes root development which helps strengthen plants. It also increases blooms on flowers. Lots of phosphorous is great for bulbs, perennials, and newly planted trees and shrubs. They depend on strong roots, so fertilizers meant for these plants often have high middle numbers.

Potassium (K) improves the overall health of plants. It helps them withstand very hot or cold weather and defend against diseases. Most soils already have some potassium, so the third number in the fertilizer analysis is usually smaller than the other two. Fertilizers for some tropical plants, especially palms, contain extra potassium because these plants have a special need for it. Fertilizers meant for fall, such as Winterizer, also contain extra potassium to help prepare plants for cold weather.

[Ric]

Copy and Paste from Ric's copyrighted website all rights reserved by Ric



Nitrogen, N, causes cell elongation and division (growth). It is important for the development of all tissue in a plant, but it is most important for leaf growth Nitrogen fully translocates systemically within the plant and leaches readily from the soil. Pound for pound it is one of the cheapest fertilizer chemicals to produce and shows the greatest response (green) in plants. For this reason fertilizer manufacturers overuse this product.

Nitrogen Deficiencies, cause reduced growth rate of the entire plant, then loss of color on the older leaves. Then older leaves turn yellow and a general decline occurs on the entire plant.

Phosphorus, P, is important in root development, flowering, fruiting, and germination. Phosphorus fully translocates systemically within the plant and is subject to leaching in the soil depending on its form. The Jacksonville area of Florida. has a problem with phosphorus contamination. Our area is rich in phosphorus and it has been mined here since the 1890s to the present. Most fertilizer blends sold in our area are low in phosphorus. The need for high phosphorus blend fertilizer is new sod, sod plugs, gardenias, and bird of paradise plants.

Phosphorus Deficiencies, cause purpling of lower leaves first, then move on up the plant and reduce flower production.

Potassium, K, develops vascular flow, which is important for flowering, stem strength, vigor, disease resistance and overall hardiness. Its most important contribution is root development for drought stress resistance. Potassium fully translocates systemically in the plant. Potassium leaches readily from the soil. I personally like to use potassium on a one to one ratio with nitrogen even though it is a more expensive fertilizer.

Potassium Deficiencies, first cause yellowing between veins of older leaves, then yellow specks in the veins. Leaves finally turn brown on the outside margin.

[ThreeWide]

For the benefit of the people who are using this thread as an educational experience, I will also add this point.

Now we have explained the 3 major nutrients and how/when to apply them under different scenarios. Even if you apply the right nutrients at the right time, your results could still be poor if the soil pH is off.

Soil testing is very important, but the most critical aspect of that is pH. When it is not in the correct range, some of your nutrients will not be available to the turf. Even at 5.5 pH, a good portion of your Nitrogen is wasted.

[timturf]

I believe if you get the base saturation in the correct ranges, your ph will fall into proper place!

[Hamons]

Crewcut enterprises – I’m glad you are trying to learn new things. And the research you did was a good start.

I looked at University of Maryland’s website and found that they recommend that the same general nutrients for turf grass as in my neck of the woods – which is good since I don’t know much else .

Checkout http://iaa.umd.edu/umturf/umturf.html

They recommend 3 – 4# of N per season and 2 – 3# of K

Focusing on your first application – I like to apply around .5#n and at least that much K. The nitrogen will help green it up without increasing top growth and the K will begin conditioning turf for summer stress and increase root mass.

Since we are limited by what suppliers sell we might as well keep this discussion as real as possible. We’ll limit our supplies to lesco for simplicity.
Using these products – what would you choose and how much would you apply?


DIMENSION 0.10% 19-0-6 30%PPSCU - $16.15

DIMENSION 0.15% 14-0-27 100%PPSCU SOP - $34.05

DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU $23


DIMENSION 0.15% 5-0-17 5FE $30


DIMENSION 0.15% 19-0-19M 100%PPSCU SOP $30

With preemergents you have to somewhat base your rate of application o the herbicide. Those with .1% 5.72#/100, .15% 3.83#/1000 and .21% at 2.72#/1000.

Others please feel free to weigh in on what you would like to use also.

[TurfProSTL]

DIMENSION 0.10% 19-0-6 30%PPSCU - $16.15
Provides too much N, when applied at acceptable herbicide rate.

DIMENSION 0.15% 14-0-27 100%PPSCU SOP - $34.05
Provides your .5 lb N (but its 100% coated - not necessary this time of year) and 1 lb K. Cost is high at $2.60 per thousand.

DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU $23
Provides your .5 lb N, but is short on K at .25 lb. Cost is $1.25 per thousand.

DIMENSION 0.15% 5-0-17 5FE $30
Doesn't provide nearly enough N.

DIMENSION 0.15% 19-0-19M 100%PPSCU SOP $30
Provides .7 lb N (all coated) and .7 lb K. Cost is $2.29 per thousand.

Personally, I would use the 18-0-10 with .21% Dimension. It supplies your .5 lb N, and an adequate amount of herbicide (although you are putting down less product per sqft, so a thorough application is critical) at a very attractive cost per thousand. You are lighter than you want to be on K, but I would make that up on your next application, still in time for pre-summer stress relief.....

[PR Fect]

To much N in the spring is a concern but I would (and do) use the 19-0-6 with 1% Dimension. At 4 lbs per 1000 that would be .76lbs N if my math is right. 3/4 of a pound N per 1000 is not an over application IMO. The cost of $16.15 per 50lb bag is the big sell, If you do lawns that are 24 or even 44K the price per 1000 makes a big differance. It may be a little light on the Dimension also, but unless there was a big problem with grassy weeds the year before I would take the risk. The 18-0-10 would be my next choice, but I do not like the 50% slow release. My clients like the Spring green NOW. If the turf was fertilized last fall, the 50% PPSCU may be OK.

[Hamons]

Since this is part of a base plan we will be creating. we can assume that it was ferilized in the fall -- with 2/3 of its needed N for the year.

The Fall is the beginning of the grass' growth cycle

[TurfProSTL]

To much N in the spring is a concern but I would (and do) use the 19-0-6 with 1% Dimension. At 4 lbs per 1000 that would be .76lbs N if my math is right. 3/4 of a pound N per 1000 is not an over application IMO. The cost of $16.15 per 50lb bag is the big sell, If you do lawns that are 24 or even 44K the price per 1000 makes a big differance. It may be a little light on the Dimension also, but unless there was a big problem with grassy weeds the year before I would take the risk. The 18-0-10 would be my next choice, but I do not like the 50% slow release. My clients like the Spring green NOW. If the turf was fertilized last fall, the 50% PPSCU may be OK.
PR Fect,
In your market, the 19-0-6 (.1%) is probably your best choice. 4 lbs per thousand would supply enough of the herbicide (.17 lb AIA) to control crabgrass in the north. $1.29 per thousand.

Here in the Transition Zone, a minimum of .25 lb AIA is required.....

[timturf]

Is that 3-4 lbs/m of n with clipping removed?

[Dman1214]

I understand your point, but are u really going to apply 2 different products, depending on clippings removal? Now u are just overthinking and micro magaging the situation. u must come up with a basic program tp market to the masses. through IPM stategies, u can customize your program.

[Hamons]

DMan -- I agree that we need a base program based on your "normal" yard. However, the amount of nutrients removed if you are bagging clippings is substantial and should be compensated for in your program. I base my program on the assumption that clippings remain on the lawn. Those that are removed I add more Nitrogen in the fall.

Tim, though those reccomendations were not specific -- I would assume they are based on total nutritional needs of the grass. Idf some of those nutritional needs are supplied by clippings then you could lean up your program slightly.

TurfPro --- Please explain your beleif that coated products are not good for Spring? I have always held on to the beleif that i want as evena release of N as possible. I would like the N I put down in march or APril to continue releasing until Mid June -- 12 weeks.

[turf hokie]

You guys left out my option on round 1 13-2-5 30% ppscu .1 dimension. If you applied a winterizer this works well without flushing out any more growth than my LALA guys can handle in the spring.

[Hamons]

TurfHokie -- Witht at fert, I have seen it with .15 DIM also.

If you did it hat way, then your nitrogen input would be even more appropriate. However, I would want a bit more K in my rd 1 fert.

[timturf]

so what rate of nitrogen are we going to apply for crewcutenterprise lawns assuming clipping are being returned? 3 or 4 lbs of n/m ?

[Hamons]

I would say 3# if we are talking TTF and 4# if we are talking mostly Blue. I'm not sure which he has most of. Most of my lawns are TTF and they need around 3. Much more than that -- applied at the wrong times and you get tall poorly colored and straggly grass.

[muddstopper]

Keep it coming folks!!! Lots of good usable information here.

[Dman1214]

I know all the agronomic reasons for low spring N. However, u must balance the negative effects of higher N, with customer demand for color. As i stated earlier, u are somewhat limited as what u can apply with the pest. combo products. Another factor is u are assuming the lawn got the proper fall fertilization requirements. What about new sales? For me, with what i have to work with being a lesco guy, my choice is 19-0-6/.15% Dim. 30% scu at 3.82lbs/000 (.25AI rate). if u wre only talking fert. the choice would be simple - but there are many factors to consider. cost is also a factor. My 2nd app is heavy K and Heavy Fe - 50% scu. In New England, red thread has been a problem, obviously associoated with N defeciency, so its always something. considreing all the variables. it is not the right choice, it is the BEST CHOICE - thats all u can do!

[turf hokie]

Has anyone considered how quickly/slowly N-P-K works through the soil when a lot of these posts keep refering to not enough K? Just a thought. K stays in the root zone for a longer period than N if my agronomy classes are still with me.

[muddstopper]

I dont think that necessary true. If the Calcium levels and the ph are in proper balance, the K will translocate almost as fast as the N.

[timturf]

wouldn't the source of nitrogen have a effect on total amount of n applied?

[timturf]

dman,

my basic program is based on clipping NOT removed! I would suggest thats what everybody else do! You can increase your fert levels if they remove clippings, but why would you?

[Dman1214]

Not sure what is behind the question. Are u quizing me?

[Hamons]

Dman,

If I get a customer who's yard is in poor shape then their requirements are going to be differnt than my normal base program. This year -- with my new customers - I started them with a specailtank mix of humic acids, iron, sea weed and some quick nitrogen. Greened them up and prepared them for the rest of my program. However, even then I didn't exceed .5#N/1000. Although I do not limit myself to Lesco, they have alot of other choices other than 19-0-06. Are you limited to Lesco by choice or location?

[Hamons]

Turf Hokie,

Depending on soil type, potassioum can be very stable in soils. In our clay rich soils witha very high CEC, potassium is easily stock piled. This is where a soilt test is imperative. I find that in my area -- 3# of k/1000 will maintain ideal potassium levels in the soil. However, I have also found that when I get anew yard with very low K -- Only two ever, Ihave been able to do a couple applications of SOP spaced 4 weeks apart and then maintai with regular program.

Here is a good website discussing potassium in soil http://turf.mdsharris.com/education_train/pdfs/Potassium_in_turf_Grass.pdf

Another important factor is that K tends to fairly immobile in the soil structure. Application after coring can be very helpful.

I wonder ..... would it be more efficient to go with cheaper low K fertilizers for all but one application and try to apply one application of high SOP in the fall with an aeration?

[Hamons]

Tim. Grass clippings are very high in nitrogen. By leaving them on the soil you are feeding the soiil and diminishing the nitrogen needed form fertilizers. I've always used what you taught me and give the lawn an extra 33%N on my lawns where the customers remove clippings. I do this on my two fall applications. Instead of 15#/1000 of 10-2-8 on round 3 they got 20# and instead 4.5# of 21-3-7 thet got 5.5#. Is this how you compensate?

[Hamons]

Tim, why would the source of N change the total amount of N applied? By toatal do you mean annual? Or do youmena per round?

If you are talking per round then it would make a huge differnce. If we are applying UF then we could go ahead and apply 4#/n in the Spring and call it good for the year. But if we are applying ammoniate Nitrogen -- then you probably don't want to apply much more than .5#.

[tremor]

I missed a lot didn't I?

Why doesn't Lesco offer some of the mini combo products in standard size? i understand that u have to market to the masses, but u assume that lcos won't/can't pay/command a higher $ for a superior product. I'm in your area and my RD 1/dimension and either RD2 or 3/merit fertility output are dictated by the limited options of the combos. DMAN1214

Good question. As great as the mini-prills work, they do cost a fortune. Send me a private email & I'll get you a custom SKU number your salesperson can look into.

The cost of raw potash (MOP or SOP) is skyrocketing as I type. Even a 2 point increase in potash will elevate our cost beyond the breaking point for regional buy groups or national application companies. So now we're stuck stocking another SKU which is bad mojo in some circles now.

But for you guys who would pay another $.50-$1.00 a bag perhaps exceptions should be made to carry "another SKU".

080385 - DIMENSION 0.15% 24-0-11 30%PPSCU is one option. It makes better agronomic sense than 19-0-6 if you're primary market has potash defeciencies.

I also have a customer who has used a custom blend Round 1.

19-0-19 70%PPSCU SOP/MOP 4% Iron .15 Dimension in Standard size.

It's hard to argue with an analysis like this.

I agree with Hamons on a very major point. If we follow the sound agronomic principal that 2/3 of the seasonal N be applied after labor Day (Cool Season), then there is no need to apply .75 lbs/N in Round 1. Rather a 13-2-5 half pound N material is ideal & still cost effective. Indeed cutters will reach instead for 0-0-7 or some other Zero-N premergent which might also be sensible on all but hungry Improved Bluegrass that are slow to green up.

As I see it though, a lot of LCOs respond more to the homeowners Spring Hormone related ego (I want it GREENER than the Jone's Yesterday!!!!!) than sound agronomics especially since they're not sure the client will renew. The logic in these cases usually states "why should I make the competitions job easier? If they renew, I'll pound them with N in April. If they don't it's someone elses expense."

I dislike this "put'em to bed hungry, then give'm a pound of N in April" mentality.

Since Round 4 (or 5) is the "all black round", this approach was very popular this fall especially in a year that saw so many unbugeted cost increases (fuel, Nitrogen, insurance, etc). I saw a LOT of late season cost cutting by guys who weren't happy with the way the bottom line was looking in Sept.

[Dman1214]

Thank you for responding to my question. However, your recomendation of the 24-0-11 .15% DIM 30% SCU again has it's drawbacks - while u are addressing the potash on one hand, u are applying over .9lbs/000 N to achieve the .25lbs/A AI of DIM. This contradicts the .5lbs spring "rule." It is absolutely a valid concern about renewals, although i never based my agronomic program on rate of renewal. Having said that, industry average for cancellations is 25%. Obviously, TG/CL skews these rate with dominant position in the market. (their rate is 35% minimum) I think it should also be noted that your agronomic program is only one aspect of running a successful lawn care operation. I always operated on the assumption that the quality of your program only impacted for overall operation 20%. Someone said it best - "the law of diminishing return."

[DLS1]

I go by the Economics 101 class of
the “point of diminishing returns” is a supposed point at which additional effort or investment (i.e. soil test, special formulated fertilizer) in a given endeavor will not yield correspondingly increasing results (i.e. more money from the customer).


Here I found the quote. :) :)

Lesco has paved the way for me for a good program so I don't deviate much from the suggested 5/6 step plan they gave me.

[Hamons]

Dls1, you make god point.

We are here to make money and your agronomic choices have to fit into the marketing niche you have decide on.

BUT what if with not much more effort -- a little knowledge -- and similar cost output you could drastically increase the quality of your yards. Take them from Good to best.

What we are working on here is increasing our knowledge. I do not believe increase in knowledge ever has "diminishing returns"

However, you and I both know that there is alot of money to made with low margin volume. Look at Ryans' lawn and Tree --a local example of a very successful company. They have made Larry a ton of money off of good marketing and less than perfect agronomic principles.

That is why in this area I let them have that part of the market and I am there serviciing the customers who want more.

[DLS1]

Hey Hamons good point. I read a lot of the post in the pesticide/fertilizer forum to gain knowledge. I am happy with the good money I am making from fertilizing/weed control since it is more per hour than the mowing part of my one man operation.

For me it really comes down to how much effort I want to tweak Lesco's plan since it is getting the job done for the customer and they are happy.

There is so much competition from large and small fertilizer operators that I don't want to put out the extra effort into gaining customers with high quality fertilizer plan when I can make a good profit and less effort selling the standard Lesco plan and still make good money.

So it comes down to that some LCO applicators are a Wal-mart seller and I think I am a Target store seller for my prices and you sound like a Macy's high price high quality seller.

I fill a niche and you fill a niche. I will still read the pesticide/fertilizer forum and books/Internet to gain knowledge but I am content with being a Target store.

[Dman1214]

EXACTLY!! You have identified your target market and designed your program to fit that. That descion is vital to your overall business strategy, because it effects all aspects of your business - your marketing message, pricing, size of your potential market, employee competence and training, to name a few. On a side note, one's level of knowledge or education has absolutely nothing to do with the agronomic program he decides is the best fit for his STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE. (obviously he has to have a command of the xx's and 00's of the agronomics). Someone with complete command of the agronomics may decide to do things that are a little less than sound agronomically becuase it fits his objective.

[Hamons]

So maybe if we are going to help crecut we need to have a price pont to work with?

Crewcut -- have you thought of a price point for your application business?

[tremor]

-
PRODUCT INFORMATION (069122)
DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU


.25#AI is cutting it close here. 2.7#/M isn't many particles/sq ft so now we're thinking mini's again. But we are back to under .5N/M.

We'll talk during the week.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

So maybe if we are going to help crecut we need to have a price pont to work with?

Crewcut -- have you thought of a price point for your application business?


So much information. Its overwhelming.

First off. 95% of my lawns the clippings are left on the property.
I would Base My Program off of that, and would probably not adjust for removing clippings unless I adjust the price.

As for pricing. It depends.
42-50$ for up to 5000 Sq Feet for granular ferilizer( no idea on liquids)
then and additional$ $8.00 per 1000 more square feet.

So say $42.00 to $50.00 up to 5000
$58.00 to $64.00 at 7000 square feet
$82.00 to $88.00 at 10,000 Square feet

The Lower price would be if signed on a 6 step program on contract for the year.. the 2nd price would be for the harder areas(hills) and the 1 time fertilizing jobs..
This is all based on a lesco granular system, factors in time to get pallet of fert. 25 mins round trip, and travel time between properties.

Does any of this sound feasable to anyone else? Please let me know. Thanks for all the great information

[CrewCutEnterprises]

I forgot. I fertilized a 25000 square foot soccer field for 200.00 , sound reasonable? Should be more.. I was triing to give a discount for the larger area... Thanks

[Hamons]

There is a lot we can go into on how to setup a price structure. However, knowing those are the prices you are hooting for we can make good choices on your products.

Look back at post #58 and #59. With that information -- what product do you want to use as your Rd 1 application?

We will then look at rd 2. We can continue into minutia -- however, I think we will be best served by coming up with some real inforamtion to discuss. Knowing full in well that whatever you choose now will change when we completed.

BTW -- Thanks for starting such a great thread. I looked and this is now the most repleid to thread in the pesticide and fertilizer forum on lawnsite.

[DLS1]

You might get a large and small fertilize/weed control company to give you an estimate for your yard so you have a good idea what others are charging.

Also get a relative to get an estimate from the same two companies and hopefully their yard is a lot bigger or smaller than yours so you can determine roughly what the two companies are charging per 1,000 sq. ft.. The companies will charge a base price (i.e. 25 - $45 per 3 - 5,000 sq ft.) and so much per 1,000 sq. ft.

Now you can compare what your 5/6 step program will be vs. the two company programs. I am not saying charge what they charge but at least you know what your competition is doing and find out what they are applying for each round.

[Hamons]

When you choose the product got to the Lesco website -- www.lesco.com and look at the laebls for each product.

Make sure you look at derived from section. Not all materials are created equal. For instanc e aproduct with sulfate of potash is far superior to simialr product with muriate of potash.

[Dman1214]

Hmaons, check out this link - I found it interesting
www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BSK/is_2_13/ai_115079356/

[ThreeWide]

So much information. Its overwhelming.


As for pricing. It depends.
42-50$ for up to 5000 Sq Feet for granular ferilizer( no idea on liquids)
then and additional$ $8.00 per 1000 more square feet.

So say $42.00 to $50.00 up to 5000
$58.00 to $64.00 at 7000 square feet
$82.00 to $88.00 at 10,000 Square feet




Just my opinion, but I think your starting price is reasonable. However, your $8 per additional 1,000 is not going to be competitive.

If you charge $42 for 5k, the price for 10k should not be nearly double that rate. In what makes up the job cost, most of it is in your trip and stop fee up front. The fertilizer itself is cheap. And it takes only a small amount if increased labor to push the spreader another 5k. The unloading and setup process is already accounted for.

My point is that a 5k lawn should cost a lot more per thousand than a 10k lawn. The costs do not scale linearly for those who are mathematically inclined.

I think $4 per additional 1,000 might be more realistic. Again, just my take on it.

[Hamons]

I agree that their is a lot of things that can go into your pricing -- anothe for whole other 100 post thread. However, lets focus this one on products given his general price points and then we can help him develop a better price structure.

This man will be a millionaire by the time he is done!

[Hamons]

Tim. Do you have any feedbak from post 79 and 80?

[timturf]

Tim. Grass clippings are very high in nitrogen. By leaving them on the soil you are feeding the soiil and diminishing the nitrogen needed form fertilizers. I've always used what you taught me and give the lawn an extra 33%N on my lawns where the customers remove clippings. I do this on my two fall applications. Instead of 15#/1000 of 10-2-8 on round 3 they got 20# and instead 4.5# of 21-3-7 thet got 5.5#. Is this how you compensate?

Generally add a little extra fert in all rds except the pre emerge, but a lot would depend on your sources of nutrients. general you can consider clipping removal to be some what in this rAtio of 4-1-3. I use 3-4 rds for my programs as a rule! If clipping are removed all season, I will add an additional 33% of n, p, k for the season!

Will add additional fert if lawn has poor density, if client in a hurry!

[timturf]

Tim, why would the source of N change the total amount of N applied? By toatal do you mean annual? Or do youmena per round?

If you are talking per round then it would make a huge differnce. If we are applying UF then we could go ahead and apply 4#/n in the Spring and call it good for the year. But if we are applying ammoniate Nitrogen -- then you probably don't want to apply much more than .5#.

JEFF,
I thought you knew the answer to this question! I do mean annual amount of n, but it would effect each round!
What happens to all the nutrients ( nitrogen), after they are applied?

Why do people say you can use less nitrogen if you use an organic fert?

Have I got you thinking in the right direction?

[CrewCutEnterprises]

I agree that their is a lot of things that can go into your pricing -- anothe for whole other 100 post thread. However, lets focus this one on products given his general price points and then we can help him develop a better price structure.

This man will be a millionaire by the time he is done!


Thanks.. Im going to try to work on my fert program tonight. Its hard, I live at a firehouse i volunteer at so time is hard to find. When im off work im not really off work.

Pricing
$42.00 for up to 5000 Sq Feet for granular ferilizer
$4.00 to $6.00 per 1000 square feet Extra. It depends though. What does the tipical bag of lesco fert go for.
10.00 for 5000sq ft bag?
_________________________________
So say $42.00 up to 5000
$50.00 to 54.00 at 7000 square feet
$62.00 to 72.00 at 10,000 Square feet
_________________________________

Sound better for pricing

As for what i would use

The DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU sounds good... but.. its 42.00 on lesco's site..

what is the price for it to contractors.. if i pay 42.00 for a 5000 square foot 50 lb bag and charge 42.00 .. I see a problem

[Hamons]

18-0-10 is $23.00 -- even cheaper if you buy a pallet or so -- but I would gues syou would be buying less than that.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

ahh. good.

so $23 dollars a 50lb bag that covers 5000 sq ft. Then again some of my acccounts are not 5k so then 2 bags could cover 2 small props and i would still bring in 42.00 per account

but if i do 10k sq ft and the base price is 42.00
going by 4 dollars for 1k more it would be 62.00
-46.00 fert
16.00 profit??

so my base of 8 for 1 k more. =10k = 82.00
-46.00 fert
36.00 profit.

So am I off on my pricing.. the base sounds right. but maybe its the lesco fertilizer.


if i have approximatly 40 fert accounts

40.00 bags or so.. how many on a pallet??

How much for a whole pallet? just triing to figure all of this out.

It all changes with a discount from lesco. Thanks Hammons

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Basic Fertilizer Program
4 Applications
1. Spring Application March DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU
2. Early Summer Application May Fill in
3. Late Summer Application July
4. Fall Application September

Premium Fertilizer Program
6 Applications
Spring 1 pre-emergence with Fertilizer DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU
Spring 2 March – April
Mid Summer Application June
Late Summer Application July
Fall Application September
Winter Application November

[timturf]

You must develop a program first, then fiqure material cost, overhead next, then your price structure!

[ThreeWide]

Here is an example of how I would price an application of common lesco fertilizer for a 5,000 sq ft job:

product lesco 32-5-7
area 5000
weight 50
cost/bag $12.00
rate 3.125 lbs/k
product cost $3.75
travel $11.30
labor $11.30
total cost $26.35
overhead 17%
break even $30.83
markup 29%
customer price $39.77
profit margin 50.93%

[Hamons]

Lets work on priicng after we have product choices figured out -- we just needed a price ranged to start in. If you were trying to compete with the TGCL of the world then we would have to make differnt choices. However, you look to want to ake a middle of the road price road so we can find materials that fit in that area.

I think 18--0-10 fits well in there.

Usuially 40 bags on a pallet. I beleive each Lesco can cahnge the price a little dependign on quanity. You'll have to talk to them. I would guess you get it a just acouple bucks cheaper.

[Dman1214]

I am of the opinion that the 18-0-10.21% DIM 50% PPSCU would not be the best choice for your round 1 service. Here's why, the most important aspect of the 1st service is the pre-emergent. for the .25#AI/A rate u are applying only 2.7#'s of total material. With a standard size prill, i don't believe u are getting enough coverage (prills per FT2). Given the choices, i would be more inclined to go with the 19-0-6 .15%DIM 30% PPSCU at the 3.8 # rate (T.T.) U are getting far greater coverage. I always got better control with liquid pre-emergent controls at a 3gal/000 FT2. Why, because it was better coverage. Further, i am not convinced that dimension is a superior pre-emergent over pendimethelin. The pre-emergent weed grass control diffrence is statisticlly insignificant. We went to dimension for ease of use - no staining and user-friendly packaging (during fill process with the soluable pouches). I think u can make a strong argument that the Pre-M is the superior product because of the better summer annual broadleaf weed control, namely spurge and oxalis, and to some extent purslane. Since i switched to DIM., I have not seen spurge in particular, since the Betasan days(for those of u who go that far back-early '80's for me). In order to get any pre-emergent control with DIM. u must use Program #3 (refer to label) - the product then becomes too expensive (for me and my strategic objective). I am looking hard ay the 16-2-16 1.5% Pre-M 50% PPSCU SOP at a rate of 4#/ooo giving me an AI of 2.5#/A. Since I am going with a granular program now(eliminated the tanker truck setup), I am not as concerned with the staining factor and the mixing concerns are not an issue. I understand the staining will still be somewhat of a concern. Long post, sorry.

[Hamons]

DMan -- I share your concern with the lack of coverage from the prills and the low application rate. I get decent crabgrass control at the Program 2 rate with in my area on a an average year.

I do not have much experience with pre-m. In my area its all dimension and barricade. Ronstar in the commercial areas. Some of the old school guys and former ChemLawn people still use pre-m though. Do you do split apps or can you do a single application and get season long control?

I looked at the Lesco choices for Pre-m. We face simialr problems on product selection. If we stick with our choices now -- we can find a comparable pre-m product if he decided that was a better product later. Without crunching all the mumbers -- it did not look like it would dramtically change his price epr thousand. Do you agree?

[Hamons]

JEFF,
I thought you knew the answer to this question! I do mean annual amount of n, but it would effect each round!
What happens to all the nutrients ( nitrogen), after they are applied?

Why do people say you can use less nitrogen if you use an organic fert?

Have I got you thinking in the right direction?

Tim, been thinking about this -- I beleive youa re referring to the turfs ability to fully utilize the available nitrogen provided by different sources. Much of the nitrogen we apply is lost to leaching and volatization. The form it is in changes how much. If you use nitrogen that can be more efficiently used by turf then you use less of it. Examples would be using organics, UF or Nutralene. any others?

[Dman1214]

First, let me say i enjoy reading your posts - you obviously know what you're doing and do your homework. When I'm designing my program, i take a very pragmatic approach to it - I think sometimes people on this site get too caught up in the minutiae of the agromonics. As I have stated previously, the agrnomonics is just one component of your overall business strategy. Now, about Pendi -I met with my lesco rep yesterday about pricing and will know more next week. But i really am intruiged with the 16-2-16 1.5% Pre-M 50% PPSCU sop product. The 4#/000 will give u an AI of 2.5#/A (we've used as low as 2.0#/A before with decent results). I suspect the cost difference will be negligible. If I decide to go with that product, I will come back Round 2 with dimension on all edges and "hot spots," probably on all early Round 1's - that is to say I will be using DIM. thru May with my 2nd app. The problem i have with doing a true split app is your fertility needs are limited by the combo choices. My second app will be 18-0-18 4%Fe 50%PPSCU (sop) at a 4#/000. I am not all that concerned about 1.4#'s on N between the first 2 rounds. A huge problem in New England has been Red Thread.

[Dman1214]

Do u care to add any insight?

[James Cormier]

First, let me say i enjoy reading your posts - you obviously know what you're doing and do your homework. When I'm designing my program, i take a very pragmatic approach to it - I think sometimes people on this site get too caught up in the minutiae of the agromonics. As I have stated previously, the agrnomonics is just one component of your overall business strategy. Now, about Pendi -I met with my lesco rep yesterday about pricing and will know more next week. But i really am intruiged with the 16-2-16 1.5% Pre-M 50% PPSCU sop product. The 4#/000 will give u an AI of 2.5#/A (we've used as low as 2.0#/A before with decent results). I suspect the cost difference will be negligible. If I decide to go with that product, I will come back Round 2 with dimension on all edges and "hot spots," probably on all early Round 1's - that is to say I will be using DIM. thru May with my 2nd app. The problem i have with doing a true split app is your fertility needs are limited by the combo choices. My second app will be 18-0-18 4%Fe 50%PPSCU (sop) at a 4#/000. I am not all that concerned about 1.4#'s on N between the first 2 rounds. A huge problem in New England has been Red Thread.

D, i like the idea of that 16-2-16 1.5% prem, Im just not sure I can switch from the dimension to prem for the staining reasons. Have you considered using a liquid prem or dimension product and spraying it out of the z, or do you think there will not be enough water for a carrier, or for even coverage?

I solved all my crabgrass problems this year, How you may ask???? Well everyones pet peeve is crab, so I just offered a 2nd treatment of a post control ( acclaim or Drive ) to be done with Rd2. Customers loved it, and it worked great, Its always nice to add on another service while your already on the lawn, and those lawns didnt have any crab at all. I think most customers will pay the extra money to have no crabgrass. I was going thru a gallon a year of acclaim, just keeping customers happy that had break thru, It seemed like the same lawns year after year where getting free service visits for this problem. Now these same people pay for the treatment, and are tickled pink.

I also offered a preventive fungicide for the red thread problem, that is a very big problem in central mass, customers snatched that up, but it just didnt work too well, so less people where happy with that. Ive seem to have better luck with just increasing the Iron, in the summer apps to help this.

[Dman1214]

I found the majority of the staining issues were related to blue stone walkways, sides of house, fences - carelessness by applicatior. Also for us the applicator uniforms and equipment, etc. Of course they were the white poodles turned orange before a liquid app dried (lol) and kids sneakers turning yellow. But, for the most part we didn't experience a lot of negative customer feed back from the granular Pre-m apps we did. Of course, u must blow off all hardscape surfaces. i like the idea of charging for a 2nd c-grass control. I think I'm just going to price it in with the approach i outlined earlier and prorate over the entir program. (more software friendly for me)

[Dman1214]

Sorry Jim, addressing the z-spray rate of 1/3gal - I don't think it will be reliable as your initial app of pre-emergent. But i would like feedback from the z-sprayers out there

[Hamons]

Nothing wrong at all with the 16-2-16 -- sop --

Nutrient wise I would say it is even superior to the 18 - 0 - 10. However, for a new guy -- do you think Dimension would be more forgiving. I am asking because i have no exp with pre-m.

Another important thought -- pre-m is pretty hard on the roots of grass. Dimension is better. It seems thy run in this order from best to worst Ronstar, Barricade, Dimension, pennnant, Pre-m.

[James Cormier]

I found the majority of the staining issues were related to blue stone walkways, sides of house, fences - carelessness by applicatior. Also for us the applicator uniforms and equipment, etc. Of course they were the white poodles turned orange before a liquid app dried (lol) and kids sneakers turning yellow. But, for the most part we didn't experience a lot of negative customer feed back from the granular Pre-m apps we did. Of course, u must blow off all hardscape surfaces. i like the idea of charging for a 2nd c-grass control. I think I'm just going to price it in with the approach i outlined earlier and prorate over the entir program. (more software friendly for me)

Does your lime, grub control and other add on services have to be the same as a treatment cost? It seems to me if you can have a different grub treatment cost, then why not have different app costs?

My customers didnt have a problem with the prem, it was me I couldnt keeep the stuff off me.

[Dman1214]

Hamons - good point regarding the "root pruning" effect of pendi. i certainly would not use it on lawns i seeded in the fall. However, I can't really speak to the effects it amy have on root structure going into summer stress. Hopefully TREMOR can chime.

Jim - The real green software does not allow u to enter diffrent prices as part of a program. I would have to go in manually and do it. this matters greatly when u are constructing the data base. Not going to affect how i price though. granular pre-M dusty?

[Hamons]

Barricade is another great choice -- but... in granualar form it has a reputation of having a lower soluabloitlity and therfore even more trouble with large prill and low apllication rates.

I think Dimension is the best all around Granular preemergent -- avaialble. If only Ronstar would be labeled for residential!!!!

[TSM]

i like the idea of charging for a 2nd c-grass control. I think I'm just going to price it in with the approach i outlined earlier and prorate over the entir program. (more software friendly for me)
actually, this would not be a problem with real green. when i stop by to visit with ya i can show you, remind me when i'm there.

And I do agree that pre-M is a better product than dimension when it comes to control over oxalis and spurge.
But granular pre-M is a real problem with the staining, and I'm not even talking about the customers property. The applicator, truck, and spreader (especially the ride-on)...its just disgusting. Keeping a white truck white aint gonna happen. (valid issues to digest before making a product choice)

[timturf]

Another important thought -- pre-m is pretty hard on the roots of grass. Dimension is better. It seems thy run in this order from best to worst Ronstar, Barricade, Dimension, pennnant, Pre-m.

bensulide or betasan is after ronstar

[timturf]

[QUOTE=Dman1214]Hamons - good point regarding the "root pruning" effect of pendi. i certainly would not use it on lawns i seeded in the fall. However, I can't really speak to the effects it amy have on root structure going into summer stress. Hopefully TREMOR can chime. [quote]


Since the greatest period for root growth on cool season turf is in late winter, why would you want to apply an herbicide that root prunes your desirable grass before the most stressful period of it's growing season?

[timturf]

Do u care to add any insight?

what do you want me to reply to?

I surely have some insight, but some might question the benefit!

[timturf]

Have we (HAMONS) decided on the amount of n,p, k our 4 step program is containing?

What is the target material cost for all 4 steps?

I like the fact that we are working towards using sop, greatly reduces the salt!

[Ric]

Since you are talking mostly about cool season turf I have been reading and not posting. However good Ronstar is, It is not labeled for residential turf.

[timturf]

Tim, been thinking about this -- I beleive youa re referring to the turfs ability to fully utilize the available nitrogen provided by different sources. Much of the nitrogen we apply is lost to leaching and volatization. The form it is in changes how much. If you use nitrogen that can be more efficiently used by turf then you use less of it. Examples would be using organics, UF or Nutralene. any others?

Just because we are talking about cool season turf, doesn't mean you have to keep your mouth shut!

Do you have any info on the volatization, leaching, and general nitrogen loss from different nitrogen sources?

tremor, hertigage, groundkprs, evirogreen, others

yes it's a shame ronstar isn't label for residential turf!!!!!!!!!!!! Wonder how many companies would use it since it's so expensive?

[Dman1214]

[QUOTE=Dman1214]Hamons - good point regarding the "root pruning" effect of pendi. i certainly would not use it on lawns i seeded in the fall. However, I can't really speak to the effects it amy have on root structure going into summer stress. Hopefully TREMOR can chime. [quote]


Since the greatest period for root growth on cool season turf is in late winter, why would you want to apply an herbicide that root prunes your desirable grass before the most stressful period of it's growing season?

A valid concern. My previous posts were addressing the poor pre-emergent effects of dimension on summer annuals compared to Pre-m. Most products have a downside unfortunately. I hadn't even considered going back to Pre-M until I saw that product, it certainly was worth exploring.

[Hamons]

Crewcut --

you never knew what you were getting yourself into did you?

1) What are our annual NPK goals we are designing this program to meet?

2) What annual material cost are we shooting for?

3) What is our choice for app #1

After these are answered we'll move onto our summer app

[trying 2b organic]

Pr fect - In your 6 part prgm which looks very good, you make separate trips for fert and squirts. Can you combine to make only 4 trips? I have been using orgnic fert. that doesnt have to be watered in so if the prob is that fert wants water and liquid weed cntrl doesnt I guess that would prevent this option. ty for great input.



Will a granular product with 2-4 % iron stain? Do you have to sweep/blow?

[trying 2b organic]

A little quick research confirmed that for better or worse most companies combine the late spring and early fall as both fertilizer and spot weed control. therefore would you not make as few trips to the property as possible by selling a 6 or 7 (including Acclaim or Drive) point prgm in 4 trips?

[Hamons]

In my area -- commercial guys tend to do tthis. They sell a seven step program -- but count spraying weed control and fertilizer as seperate applications.

In my area, residential custoemrs expect a seven step program to mean -- on the property seven seperate times. The only exception is grub control -- usuall charged seperate, but spread with early summer application.

Suppose you would look what was expected in you region.


ALWAYS blow off hard surrfaces -- even my 100% organic applications. Th only place ferilizer is labeled for is on the turf and that is the only place it should go --- in my opinion.

I always tell customers not to water fior 24 hours then give it a good soaking. Even if the fert doesn't ned it -- it helps the grass look better quicker.

[DLS1]

ALWAYS blow off hard surrfaces -- even my 100% organic applications. Th only place ferilizer is labeled for is on the turf and that is the only place it should go --- in my opinion.


Good point Hamons. I always mention when I am trying to sell a customer I always mention that I will blow off the granular fertilizer off the concrete and mention that it can pit the concrete. I think most fert. companies around here don't blow it off concrete. I have seen some of my mowing customers with pitted concrete driveways where the fert. was not blown off.

[PR Fect]

We get paid per visit. Just like the mowing. Per visit means we do the work we get paid, no work no pay. It works best for us. We bill after the work with 30 days to pay. That said, the move times we go to a property, the more money we make. I have all ready sprayed and then fertilized them a week later. They pay per step or visit. If I billed them for two apps on one visit, I think we would have problems collecting. This is why, I wonder if we got a perma green if we would have to change our whole billing/program/system. Crew cut needs to add that ( how he gets paid ) to the mix also when setting up a program.

[PR Fect]

I should also add that blowing of fert is the law in the city. Big source of non point pollution in storm sewers.

[Hamons]

As soon as we get some answers from crecut -- we'll start thinking about summer fertilizers. Those of you who might be working ahead-- what do we want to include in a asummer application nutrient wise?

[turf hokie]

For the non-merit customers I like 21-3-21 75%ppscu 2%FE MOP/Sop. When using merit it's a little more limiting.

[Hamons]

I do not apply merit as part of my base program. I have found very little need on my customers lawns to treat them all for grubs. However, I know this will proabbly turn into quite a debate. Ultimately crewcut will have to decide how he want to do it -- however, I think the responsible thing is to not include it in your program unless a extenuating circumstances exist for a custoemr sucha s a history of grub damage.

Here are the summer options I am considering (again limiting ourselves to Lesco), which is only smart for this threads discussion purposes.

14-4-14 40%PPSCU AS 2FE 3MN $16

20-0-20M POLYVEX 84%TCRN $26

21-3-21 75%PPSCU 2FE MOP/SOP $27

32-5-7 50%PPSCU $21

5-10-31 10FE $12

5-2-4 SUSTANE MED 2FE $20

[turf hokie]

Merit is an upsell. Some customers insist.
21-3-21 only runs me about $11 though. Pallet pricing.

[Hamons]

I'm just tkaing thier numbers straight from their website -- guessing he is not going to have a big amount of room to negotiate his first year with limited customers. But... 27.00 seemed way too high to me -- for basically a trumped up scu with minimal SOP. The 20-0-20 Polyvex -- is a superior product and it is priced cheaper -- I wonder if this is a website error?

I'm impressed by $11/bag though -- how much do you buy to get that price?

[turf hokie]

I used 320 bags on my round. And you don't want to know my symbiot price. I got in midway throught the year.

[turf hokie]

Their pricing is based on total yearly usage. I would beat them up beyond low tier pricing if you use multiple pallets of one product or if you can store it.

I like to keep my straight fert prices in the $1.00 per k range

[James Cormier]

I do not apply merit as part of my base program. I have found very little need on my customers lawns to treat them all for grubs. However, I know this will proabbly turn into quite a debate. Ultimately crewcut will have to decide how he want to do it -- however, I think the responsible thing is to not include it in your program unless a extenuating circumstances exist for a custoemr sucha s a history of grub damage.

Here are the summer options I am considering (again limiting ourselves to Lesco), which is only smart for this threads discussion purposes.

14-4-14 40%PPSCU AS 2FE 3MN $16

20-0-20M POLYVEX 84%TCRN $26

21-3-21 75%PPSCU 2FE MOP/SOP $27

32-5-7 50%PPSCU $21

5-10-31 10FE $12

5-2-4 SUSTANE MED 2FE $20

These are all great products, but I think your living in a dream world if you think you can run a lawn treatment company using these products. If you only had a handful of customers and they where willing to pay 2x's what LCO's normally charge. Then those products would make some sense.

This season I decided I needed to reduce my expenses with my products, I started using cheaper straight fert ( 25-5-10 lesco ) on a % of my customer base. I reduced my straight fert prices for 2 apps from $1.05 per K to $.78 per K using the cheaper fert. I assumed you would see a difference in the quality of the lawns that got the " better Fert" but you didnt. I did 6m sqft using that cheaper product, at a savings around $1700.00

[Hamons]

james,

Again -- we are back to what niche is he marketing -- who is he selling too? That 1700.00 savings in product. COuld have been made up fairly quickly if you had fewer higher priced customers.

Crewcut had a price structure that put him in an area where he was going to try selling an expensive program with higher than normal pricing. I agree we could have a whole different thread on how to price and the pros and cons of being Walmart of Nordstroms. However, I think we agree on both.

If you raised your customers prices just $1/k to cover your better materials then you would be up $6,000.00 How many customers would you lose? $6000.00 worth? Plus you would be working less then for the same amount of money.

As far as quality differences -- those would be slow to show up. However, using a straight fert will result ina differnt quality turf then using higher grade materials -- if used intelligently. Do you disagree?

[James Cormier]

james,



If you raised your customers prices just $1/k to cover your better materials then you would be up $6,000.00 How many customers would you lose? $6000.00 worth? Plus you would be working less then for the same amount of money.

As far as quality differences -- those would be slow to show up. However, using a straight fert will result ina different quality turf then using higher grade materials -- if used intelligently. Do you disagree?

jeff, I understand where your coming from, I really do. But lets face it, when you walk into lesco to get some fert, at anytime of year your limited to what is going to be on the floor, Most of what you listed will not be there. Im sure lesco is not going to special order 20 bags of something no one else is going to buy. Just because a few guys on lawn site agree its the best fert out there.

Now If your company is doing 10m Sqft per round and you where able to pre order material then it would be wise to discuss what would be the best to use. I dont think Crewcut fits into this group.

Now you comment on raising my prices $1.00 per K, to allow for better material, But I increased my bottom line with out raising my prices, which helps my bank account and doesn't upset 1 customer. To me thats much better.

[Dman1214]

Set up is complete. Finished it up today. Fabrication came out awesome. See u on the 3rd. I'll email u with address and directions.

[timturf]

Turf that has been properly maintain for number of years with high quality fert, will still respond well and look good for a number of years with a cheap fert, but suddently the turf will take a dive south. Again, what is the source of nitrogen, and if you go to a cheaper fert, are you applying the same amount of nitrogen /m?

[James Cormier]

Tim, I apply 4.5-5lbs of N per year on 90% of my lawns, 10% get 6 or higher. those lawns get 7 apps a year, with heavy N in late fall.

D, looking forward to meeting you, and seeing your set up, TSM is coming to my office first, then together we will come your way, 84 to 91

Do you want me to bring anything?

[James Cormier]

I think there are far too many factors is place to say that a lawn being fertilized with a cheaper fert will go down hill in several years.

Someone who uses the finest fert, may skimp on using merit vs. Mach 2 or not using a preventive grub control at all ( Jeff isn't that what you stated earlier ? )and that lawn will go down hill much faster then a lawn that didn't get quality fert a few times a year.

Anyways weather or not crewcut makes it in this business doesn't depend on where his N comes from, it depends on him calling customers back, being efficient in daily production, doing a budget and sticking to it, and just running a business, NOT a lawn business, a business business.

[Dman1214]

Jim, couldn't agree with you more. I stated earlier on this same thread - maybe the agronomics are 20% of the business - tops!

[Hamons]

James, your points are very valid. I would love to see a thread started by you on the keys to succesfully running the business sid of things. Things like how to setup invoicing/scheduling/routing and also how to SELL your sercvices and provide the best cusotmer support possible. This is something I could learn a lot ablout I'm sure.

A completely seperate thread could be written started on the finances of startign and running a fert business.

[Hamons]

Someone who uses the finest fert, may skimp on using merit vs. Mach 2 or not using a preventive grub control at all ( Jeff isn't that what you stated earlier ? )and that lawn will go down hill much faster then a lawn that didn't get quality fert a few times a year.




Yes James, I do not include a prevenative grub in my application program and have only had to apply grub control to less than 5% of my lawns in the last 3 years. Maybe its regional -- but I find it hard to justify putting down an insecticide on th elawn when such a small number of my lawns have any need for it. ALthough -- all the big boys around here include it in their apps.

[turf hokie]

There are a lot of really good points here. On the top is the fact that business is business, call your customers back when they call you, show up when you say you will etc. BUT--
you guys are missing out on some things. Lesco has always gotten the ferts that I requested. It is part of my scheduling. The service center I use never carried 18-0-18. I told them I would be using it on my 4th round and they had it for me. I only needed to give them a 7 day lead time. If you are just walking in the store like a homeowner letting them dictate what you are going to use then you are going to be in trouble.

Hamons -- I think some of the border line customers -- you know, the ones that think you are only putting fert down and they can do it themselves. would jump ship at a 1/k raise. On a basic program that is a 10-15% raise for a 10k lawn. Pretty steep to maintain a decent fertilizer selection.

Where are we with our consensus program anyway?????
Here is what I have

Round 1 13-2-5 Dimension .10 30% ppscu
Round 2 same as 1
Round 3 21-3-21 75%ppscu 2%fe
OR 24-5-11 50% ppscu with .2% merit

Although I am looking into a blend of merit @ 19-?-? with FE at 50% ppscu for Round 3 merit customers

Anyone else have Rounds 1 thru 3 set?

[timturf]

90% of my lawns receice @ 3lbs of n/m per year, seldom use insecticide or fungicide!

put 3lbs of n/m from a cheap fertilizer, lets see how it compares to a turf receiving 3lbs of n/m from a quality fertilizer for 2-3 years, and see the difference!

[James Cormier]

90% of my lawns receice @ 3lbs of n/m per year, seldom use insecticide or fungicide!

put 3lbs of n/m from a cheap fertilizer, lets see how it compares to a turf receiving 3lbs of n/m from a quality fertilizer for 2-3 years, and see the difference!

Tim, I will try that one a few lawns next season. And report the results.

I got in a little argument with a university of Mass professor at a pesticide recertification class last winter because he was claiming quality of turf would not be effected by only applying 2-3 lbs of N over the year, compared to all us LCO applying 4,5 or higher.

My argument was only against the claim " quality of turf " because what he thinks is a nice piece of turf, others may not, mostly customers that are paying someone to take care of it.

Obviously he had a separate agenda against high levels of N in our soils. I tried to get him to admit it.

[James Cormier]

James, your points are very valid. I would love to see a thread started by you on the keys to succesfully running the business sid of things. Things like how to setup invoicing/scheduling/routing and also how to SELL your sercvices and provide the best cusotmer support possible. This is something I could learn a lot ablout I'm sure.

A completely seperate thread could be written started on the finances of startign and running a fert business.

Jeff,
Your assuming I know how to do all that stuff.... :p You make great points on all these matters, so I also learn from what you write, as well as others in here.

My apologies to Crew for hijacking his thread on materials.. :blush:

Believe it or not, Ive received tons of email and many phone calls from people on this board asking for advise and help, Ive mailed out copies of my forms to different people all over the country. I am meeting with several guys from here over the winter to compare how we do business and learn from each other.

Im sure this winter I will have more time, and we will discuss many aspects of our business's

[James Cormier]

There are a lot of really good points here. On the top is the fact that business is business, call your customers back when they call you, show up when you say you will etc. BUT--
you guys are missing out on some things. Lesco has always gotten the ferts that I requested. It is part of my scheduling. The service center I use never carried 18-0-18. I told them I would be using it on my 4th round and they had it for me. I only needed to give them a 7 day lead time. If you are just walking in the store like a homeowner letting them dictate what you are going to use then you are going to be in trouble.

Hamons -- I think some of the border line customers -- you know, the ones that think you are only putting fert down and they can do it themselves. would jump ship at a 1/k raise. On a basic program that is a 10-15% raise for a 10k lawn. Pretty steep to maintain a decent fertilizer selection.

Where are we with our consensus program anyway?????
Here is what I have

Round 1 13-2-5 Dimension .10 30% ppscu
Round 2 same as 1
Round 3 21-3-21 75%ppscu 2%fe
OR 24-5-11 50% ppscu with .2% merit

Although I am looking into a blend of merit @ 19-?-? with FE at 50% ppscu for Round 3 merit customers

Anyone else have Rounds 1 thru 3 set?

Hokie, From reading some of your past posts, I think you have a pretty good size sqft per round. Lesco certainly will bend over further backwards to get you what you want, opposed to a smaller company like crew that may not even need one pallet of these types of products. As my own company has grown Ive seen much better pricing and willingness of suppliers to get me what I need or want.

Do you do 2 blanket apps of dimension on all lawns? And what % of customers get the merit?

Jeff
Here in New England, you wouldnt last very long with out a preventive grub app, Jeff you are lucky you dont have such a problem with grubs. Sometimes while responding to posts I forget how different agronomics can be in different parts of the country.

[turf hokie]

James I do 2 blanket apps of Dimension. Maybe down the road I will be more comfortable with one app. But it seems that the year that only one app goes down will be like this year, rainy, and push the product through faster.

As far as merit I would say only about 15-20% get merit. Most people don't want to add the expense and are willing to take a chance on grubs. But if they do get them I'm sure to charge a good nickel to dylox and repair and then put them on preventative the following season. I would prefer to put all my customers on a grub program but the big guys don't and that prices me out of the game in a lot of cases.

You are right, LESCO will definately cater more to a larger customer. But $27 for 21-3-21 take most of anybody's profit.

Everybody--Do you do two apps of pre-emergent or do you have another method? And what would that be?

I would love to know if the PG would get results with dimension liquid on the second round to only have to apply to curbs etc. vs blanket app

[turf hokie]

Back to the Lesco thing real quick. Your salesman should be willing to get you what you want whether it is 5 bags or 20 bags. He is a salesman and as long as you take what you order and he doesn;t have to sit on it b/c you changed your mind or over ordered it should not be a problem. When I worked at Lesco I would do that for my customers all the time. A longer lead time was needed on small orders somtimes but never a problem to get. If they can special order a $5 dollar mower part they should be able to order a $15 dollar bag of fert.
Not to say they can or will but they should. But that should go for any place you get your fert, Lesco or not.

[DLS1]

..........
Everybody--Do you do two apps of pre-emergent or do you have another method? And what would that be?.........


The first 2 apps I do is 19-0-6 dimension 30% PPSCU which is what Lesco recommended.

[Hamons]

I do one application of preemergent early spring then --- on some of my full sun areas with more crab pressure -- I will do a second application with a 0-0-7 Dimesnsion, Just use a chest spreader and spread it at my next visit in addiiton to their normal summer fert. Just takes a second a few pounds of product and ensure that those hard pressured streetlines and suny slopes from getting that late summer outbreak I used to sometimes get.

[Ric]

Since I am a warm season turf Guy I have stayed out of this thread. However I have noticed a lot of combination material being used. Now the reason behind Combination Fertilizer-Pesticide is labor saving. However Combined material is a lot more expensive that non-combined blends and a pesticide in seperate bags. Now the 0-0-7 blend combination is in fact not intended as a fertilizer, but rather a catalyst to enhance up take since K is a luxury consummation element and utilized or up taken by plant even if they already have plenty.

OK My point is I see several complaints that the rate of application does not meet all needs of either Fertilizer or Pre-emerge or pesticide in general. Here in the Bug Capital of America we have sandy soil and a rainy season that starts in June and goes strong until Sept. Therefore we will use non-combination blends to meet the individual needs of each lawn. Of course we also use a lot of Liquid cocktails for competitive pricing even though liquid applys on sandy soil does not have the necessary residual. Liquid applys and high percentage slow release granular it what I prefer to use from a economy view point. Now Coastal Florida is unlike most of the rest of your soils and climate so please don't mis-under stand my program. I only like to add the point that combination products are very good they are not always the best way to go. Yes I do use Weed and Feed combination granular blends. But Atraize is the AI and is both a post and pre emerge.

[DLS1]

Hey Ric, my wifes parents live in Tampa and we will be visiting them next week. I don't know how you are allowed to use any chemicals in parts of Florida since it is so sandy. My father-in-law planted a banana tree and hit water about 2 feet down.

I would think the chemicals would go straight to the water below the sand and into someones drinking water.

[Ric]

Hey Ric, my wifes parents live in Tampa and we will be visiting them next week. I don't know how you are allowed to use any chemicals in parts of Florida since it is so sandy. My father-in-law planted a banana tree and hit water about 2 feet down.

I would think the chemicals would go straight to the water below the sand and into someones drinking water.


DLS

Our water table is generally about 15 feet below surface level. But you must realize the highest point in Florida is only about 300 feet. my parents home was 6 feet above sea level. 2 ft to the water table sounds more like a drainage problem than the real water table. However that doesn't mean it is not possible. Bananas love water and should do well. However The less you do for them the better they grow. That is Why Banana republic do so well, they only have to harvest them. Don't let your father in law kill them with Kindness.

Yes Water Water everywhere in Florida But potable water is at a premium. My well is a artesian well and the water actually comes from the Great Smokey Mountains. It is Free flowing if you open the Stop. It also is High Quality water so I am lucky.

Ground water contamination is in fact any issue that has not had a lot of pressure so far. But the Great State of Florida is dead last in Education as far as percentage of high school students that Graduate. So there are other issue that push water concerns to the back ground. Besides sales Tax and property tax. Hotel Bed tax and Lotto are the only source of revenue for the state of Florida. We really have some issues that the State is to poor to address.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

High Jacking my thread... GEEEEEZE


No really Tooo much information ... Ok..

Back to basics...


I understand the say 13-2-5
but what is Dimension and .10 30% and. ppscu


I get so confused. Also.. Lesco products are nice and easy to use. Would be no problem. Other than price. So I guess We need to find what i want to use for each app. then go on to pricing.

You guys are far more knowledgeable than I. Just give me a plan on apps and Ill try it.. But lawns vary so much... so how do u fine tune it other than soil testing etc.

Jason R.

Crew Cut.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

These are all great products, but I think your living in a dream world if you think you can run a lawn treatment company using these products. If you only had a handful of customers and they where willing to pay 2x's what LCO's normally charge. Then those products would make some sense.

This season I decided I needed to reduce my expenses with my products, I started using cheaper straight fert ( 25-5-10 lesco ) on a % of my customer base. I reduced my straight fert prices for 2 apps from $1.05 per K to $.78 per K using the cheaper fert. I assumed you would see a difference in the quality of the lawns that got the " better Fert" but you didnt. I did 6m sqft using that cheaper product, at a savings around $1700.00

Ok, Me again. Hamons.. problem Im going to see with some things is price.. Most LCO's market @50.00 to $55 an app for 6 to 8k property's. Well the problem with some of these ferts is the price. Im going to spend more than half on fert. Sounds bad to me...

1) What are our annual NPK goals we are designing this program to meet?
I would say from everyone else 4-5k on N. and no ideas on 2kP and k??

2) What annual material cost are we shooting for?

for 4 step = $50-65

7 step = $80-100


3) What is our choice for app #1
... Something in the ... $ 15.00 range... any ideas..

Truthfully ... Im sooo confused
Jason
After these are answered we'll move onto our summer app

[Hamons]

Ok -- we are making this too hard. Price is a huge issue and is the crux of everything. We are all doing this for the love of green -- and we aren't talking about grass. That is what makes us pros.

Keep with us through this process and I think you will learn a lot -- we all will.



Dimension is a pre-emergent used to control the germination of crabgrass. Do some research online -- you'll find out lots. University of Maryland ahs a good amount of info.

.1% refers to the amount of active ingredient on the fertiliazer carrier. for instance -- a bag of 19-0-6 .10% is .1% dimension. This number is important when deciding on rate.

ppscu is a coating on the fertilzier that allows it to release it nutrients slowly.


Hang in there with us and we will "give" you that plan you want.

Keep asking questions -- don't let us assume too much.


==============

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Also..

Last one... I've used crappy spreaders in the past...

Does most agree I should buy a lesco speader? 85# or 100#?

Thanks Jason

Thanks hamons.. Im hanging in there. but its alot to stomach... And i thought it was simple.

[Hamons]

I like my Lesco -- but there are others. Lesco will have a sale on them in the Spring -- they usually do. They'll be about $60 cheaper then they are right now.

Fertilizing can be very simple. Go to Lesco -- tell the guy you want everyone esle is buying -- he'll give it to you and then you read the number on the bag --s et your sprader and go. Mix up some 3-way(weed killer) ina sprayer and spray anything that doesn't look like grass and collect your money.

BUT..... you can also learn to do it better and get beeter results!

Give me some time to think about where we should take this thread -- back to the basics.

[Bryn]

I am very interested in adding to this thread with a program that I'm going to offer for next year. My business is unusual in the fact I also am licensed in General Rodent Control (GRC), Wood Destroying Organisms (WDO), and Horticulture (HLT).

Any suggestions, comments, criticisms would be appreciated.

I will follow a Lesco Granular Program for my area, which is Middle TN 40 miles south of Nashville, Zone 7, transition, cool season. (I could do with some help for warm season grass such as Bermuda, and Zoysia if anyone has a program to offer).

Round One:-
(Feb-March, Expected application date 14th Feb 2005)
19-3-6 .15% Dimension 30% SCU 12,500ft/bag
(Cost $24.71, Markup 1.5 =2.97/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$39.83
10,000sqft=$54.70

Spot spray broad-leaf weeds with Three-Way Ester II

Round Two:-
(Early April, Expected application date 28th March 2005)
Same as Round One with Spot spray broad-leaf weeds with Momentum

Round Three:-
(Early May-June, Expected application date 15th May 2005)
5-10-31 w/10% Iron 15,500ft/bag
(Cost $13.78, Markup 1.5=1.46/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$32.28
10,000sqft=$39.57

Spot spray broad-leaf weeds with Three-Way (as needed)

Round Four:-
(Early July-August, Expected application date 1st July 2005)
24-5-11 50%SCU 12,500ft/bag
(Cost $17.68, Markup 1.5=$2.12/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$35.61
10,000sqft=$46.21

Round Five:-
(Early September-October, Expected application date 1st September 2005)
32-3-8 30%SCU w/2% Iron 16,000ft/bag
(Cost $14.75, Markup 1.5=$1.38/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$31.91
10,000sqft=$38.82

Round Six:-
(Early November-December, Expected application date 1st November 2005)
Same as Round Five

The average cost per round is $45.47 for 10,000sqft. Truegreen/Chemlawn was charging $66.00 per application. This program would apply about 4.55 pounds of N. My one concern is the 1lb of N being applied on the 1st of July, although the July application is 50%SCU.

You have now seen my program for 2005, you have also seen what I’m expecting to charge, please have at it, I will be interested in your comments and suggestions.

Best Regards

[ThreeWide]

Round Four:-
(Early July-August, Expected application date 1st July 2005)
24-5-11 50%SCU 12,500ft/bag
(Cost $17.68, Markup 1.5=$2.12/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$35.61
10,000sqft=$46.21



Best Regards


I would suggest removing Round 4 completely from this program. In the South, you should not apply N to cool season turf in the summer months. Your Round 3 should be the last application before summmer, and nothing until fall. Alternatively, you could change Round 4 to an iron-only application. Otherwise remove it.

[khutch]

Great post, even though it's going in a hundred directions....Jumpin' in here late - I guess everyone wants comments on their programs - here goes....
I agree w/my Georgia brother TurfUnlimited - Bryn's round 4 app could cause serious problems with the amount of N being applied going into summer. Skip it or as TurfUnlimted says make it Iron only. Round five (32-3-8) is lacks enough P & K, repeating it as round six makes a bit more sense, but it has a little more N and a little less K than I would use, IMO.

[GrassMasterNC]

Yes PR

I think you are right Doc Bradley was in the back helping to raise the flag.
You mention that many people think he was another Marine.
I wonder how many younger kids these days ever heard of Iwo or some of them WW II for that matter.

I guess that belongs in another thread.

Actually, If you look at the picture/statue, he is the only one who's face is visible and second from the right.

[Rwise10230]

I am very interested in adding to this thread with a program that I'm going to offer for next year. My business is unusual in the fact I also am licensed in General Rodent Control (GRC), Wood Destroying Organisms (WDO), and Horticulture (HLT).

Any suggestions, comments, criticisms would be appreciated.

I will follow a Lesco Granular Program for my area, which is Middle TN 40 miles south of Nashville, Zone 7, transition, cool season. (I could do with some help for warm season grass such as Bermuda, and Zoysia if anyone has a program to offer).

Round One:-
(Feb-March, Expected application date 14th Feb 2005)
19-3-6 .15% Dimension 30% SCU 12,500ft/bag
(Cost $24.71, Markup 1.5 =2.97/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$39.83
10,000sqft=$54.70

Spot spray broad-leaf weeds with Three-Way Ester II

Round Two:-
(Early April, Expected application date 28th March 2005)
Same as Round One with Spot spray broad-leaf weeds with Momentum

Round Three:-
(Early May-June, Expected application date 15th May 2005)
5-10-31 w/10% Iron 15,500ft/bag
(Cost $13.78, Markup 1.5=1.46/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$32.28
10,000sqft=$39.57

Spot spray broad-leaf weeds with Three-Way (as needed)

Round Four:-
(Early July-August, Expected application date 1st July 2005)
24-5-11 50%SCU 12,500ft/bag
(Cost $17.68, Markup 1.5=$2.12/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$35.61
10,000sqft=$46.21

Round Five:-
(Early September-October, Expected application date 1st September 2005)
32-3-8 30%SCU w/2% Iron 16,000ft/bag
(Cost $14.75, Markup 1.5=$1.38/1000sqft)
($25.00 Stop fee)
Therefore 5,000sqft=$31.91
10,000sqft=$38.82

Round Six:-
(Early November-December, Expected application date 1st November 2005)
Same as Round Five

The average cost per round is $45.47 for 10,000sqft. Truegreen/Chemlawn was charging $66.00 per application. This program would apply about 4.55 pounds of N. My one concern is the 1lb of N being applied on the 1st of July, although the July application is 50%SCU.

You have now seen my program for 2005, you have also seen what I’m expecting to charge, please have at it, I will be interested in your comments and suggestions.

Best Regards

GREAT POST! Glad to see someone be thorough in providing their program.
My program is very similar here for most of my customers. I would suggest that you expand to 7 applications and apply only lime in August if it is needed, otherwise, another round on FE.....at the same time, apply spot weed control. Additional billings with good reason never hurt.

The summer N application can be a concern without adequate water, but if a customer has a sprinkler system, I'll throw the N to it in a heartbeat. They are happy as hell if the grass is green. besides, I have to mow most of our lawns we maintain since I go for the higher end properties.

I am VERY adamant about using soil tests to determine what to apply. I am well aware that this is not the cost effective method, but I had to make a decision whether to run with the fert & squirt guys such as the national companies with poorly trained applicators.... or truly provide a professional service. I chose the latter and charge appropriately. My average application is $65.00 for an 8 - 10K lawn. Here that is a slightly higher price when my competitors are charging about $.0055 per Sq. Ft. If $70.00 a year on a 10K property makes me loose a deal, then call Chemlawn....I won't do it. And at that, I'm picking up business like crazy and not even trying.

I'm big on root development so I go with 18-24-12 in the fall for both applications. Also, the soil tests for most of my customers show a HIGH percentage of K, and a need for P.....so this justifies my decision. I'm even applying lime again this Dec on some lawns because soil tests indicate sufficient quantities of N-P & K....but yet, I needed to apply 70 lbs lime per K/Sq. Ft. Since 50 lbs is about all that can be used at one time, my customers are receiving the adjustment they need....plus my fert cost will be lower. Soil tests can really save you money in the chemical costs department, and we're proving the environmental controls that are needed.

The point is, we're trying to spend so much time determining the perfect program, when in reality, no ONE program is gonna work for all zones.....and worse yet..........not work for all customers.........GET A SOIL TEST DONE.....and then devise the plan from there........charge accordingly......and be professional by doing it right. Don't worry about the low balling, improperly trained chumps.......your work will show in the long run.

Off my soap box now....thanks!

[ThreeWide]

The point is, we're trying to spend so much time determining the perfect program, when in reality, no ONE program is gonna work for all zones.....and worse yet..........not work for all customers.........GET A SOIL TEST DONE.....and then devise the plan from there........charge accordingly......and be professional by doing it right. Don't worry about the low balling, improperly trained chumps.......your work will show in the long run.




THIS is the best post I've seen in this thread so far. I'm sticking to this theory of business as well.

[James Cormier]

I use soil tests only on laws that Im having problems with, and cant figure it out. OR if the customer ask for one.

The thought of doing 350 soil tests,then reading 350 test :dizzy: and adjusting my program to meet every little need is just plain silly When in the end 95% of them will basically be the same. With only minor differences on micro nutrients. I think some people just take things to a extremes and run with it.

Ive been on my own for 10 years, most of my lawns look great, my cancel rate is around 8% Im one of the highest priced companies in my area and I dont do soil samples.

[turf hokie]

I would be nervous if my prices were less than TGCL but that is me. They give quotes over the phone without a property visit. I've run into a couple of lawns where the customer had twice the lawn that TGCL had quoted.

As far as billing I don't adjust my prices on each round. For example a 10k lawn @ 4 cents per K equal $400 divided by 5 rounds each round is $80. EAsy to bill and the customer knows what to expect. I won't touch a 10k lawn for less than $70 and that is for a basic program. But that could just be my corner of the world. My minimum stop fee is $45 an app.
And those aren't the highest prices. I shot for the middle of the road customer.

Crew Cut --

Hang in there. It is a lot of info only because you have it coming from alot of sources. Also we are in different areas with different needs.Once you start to see some common thoughts (they will come) it will get REAL simple. I promise.
Go to LESCO see what they recommend for a basic program that most of the guys are using, as was mentioned earlier. That will give you a real good jump point.

It looks like most of use agree dimension is the way to go and 13-2-5 or 19-0-6 are the ferts.

Are we split applicating and using the same product on Round 1 and 2?

I think Crew cut will start seeing some progress if we can start narrowing down our first two rounds to a couple of choices.

[Rwise10230]

James,

That's wonderful that this works for you. After all........money is the name of the game. Doing it right doesn't hurt either.

In North Carolina, the state will provide soil tests for free....and it's information that is useful. Consequently, my costs to do this is nil. Not all states have this fine benefit. Even if I had to pay the $12.00 per test.....I'd do it because I know that my plan is a road map for success. No guesswork involved.

However, there is no doubt that SHOULD you perform a test on these 350 lawns, you will probably see that your fertilizer applications can be adjusted to your benefit. That is.....why use a 28-5-12 from Lesco when a 5-10-5 will be more beneficial and save you a few bucks on that application? Yes, you'll have to use a little more planning and have different stock on your truck......and the applicators have to know what to put down and where.....but there ARE cost savings to an applicator that can be very great on a 350 customer list. And with Lesco claiming a price increase next year, we'd all be well advised to keep an eye on fert costs.

The typical LCO determines a PLAN based on the suggestions of distribution companies like Lesco, or what they can rob from another company. NOT ONE individual I have spoken with over the past few years can tell you WHY they are using the fert they are using other than...."thats what I've done for years"............or......"thats what Lesco or Southern States suggested"........"or...."my customers are happy....so I'm happy"...............or....."screw it.....I'm making money"......

Not trying to kill this thread, but a lot of time is spent describing whether a particular mix of NPK with what % of dimension is needed when in reality, it will vary GREATLY from zone to zone and from customer to customer. I have customers that need to Pre-M and yet others that can't get enough or have to have a post emergent applied at every visit. Following IPM principals, this is the correct approach. You just can't describe very accurately what a program should consist of. You have to KNOW what your dealing with on a customer by customer basis. Any attempt to develop a program that is generic..... is at best......a starting point for the uninformed or inexperienced. After that, they HAVE to take a look at the finer points of their customer's lawns. That is to say....does this customer need a boost in P........or K......or is 46-0-0 needed. Just too many variables that need to be considered to develop a catch all program!

I'm telling ya......feed the soil with what is needed. Use a soil test to determine WHAT is needed. You'll save money, help the environment, help keep the environmental whacko's off our backs (an in reality, help the environment)....... and do a better job. Quality will run over mediocre work every time.........

Again...back off the soap box..........

[James Cormier]

James,




However, there is no doubt that SHOULD you perform a test on these 350 lawns, you will probably see that your fertilizer applications can be adjusted to your benefit. That is.....why use a 28-5-12 from Lesco when a 5-10-5 will be more beneficial and save you a few bucks on that application? Yes, you'll have to use a little more planning and have different stock on your truck......and the applicators have to know what to put down and where.....but there ARE cost savings to an applicator that can be very great on a 350 customer list. And with Lesco claiming a price increase next year, we'd all be well advised to keep an eye on fert costs.

The typical LCO determines a PLAN based on the suggestions of distribution companies like Lesco, or what they can rob from another company. NOT ONE individual I have spoken with over the past few years can tell you WHY they are using the fert they are using other than...."thats what I've done for years"............or......"thats what Lesco or Southern States suggested"........"or...."my customers are happy....so I'm happy"...............or....."screw it.....I'm making money"......


........
R, Your assuming that changing the program to split my apps up from everyone getting 28-5-12 ( using your example ) to using 5-10-5 and saving money is not realistic, because assuming you did do 350 soil samples, most likely you would be needing dozens of types of materials to please what those soil samples are telling you.

So your costs would not go down, but instead the added costs of mixing so many different materials to please 350 soil samples would be much higher. And a nightmare to manage. Now if I was taking care of a golf course or a large commercial site then I can see the benefits of doing this.

Now your next point about knowing why we apply certain products, or not knowing why is how you put it. You list 4 reasons, copied from above ...."thats what I've done for years"............or......"thats what Lesco or Southern States suggested"........"or...."my customers are happy....so I'm happy"...............or....."screw it.....I'm making money"......

Well all of these reasons are why I apply what I apply, (Insert northern for southern) plus a few others, and guess what it works.

I took your first comment
"That's wonderful that this works for you. After all........money is the name of the game. Doing it right doesn't't hurt either."

as a little dig, because if Im not taking soil samples of all my lawns Im not doing it right? I just dont think my cancel rate would be so low, my avg lawn price much higher then most, and my lawns looking good, if I wasn't doing something right.

Edited, I had to edit this cause after reading it I think I come off as against soil samples, and Im not, What I am against is people thinking that is the only way to a successful lawn treatment company, Yes it can be part of a reason for success, but there are plenty of successful LCO's that dont even know how to read a soil sample. Ive read that agronomics is 20-30% of this business, and I agree with that after being in this business for 19 years

[Bryn]

Thanks for the replies.

I also questioned the need for round four. An irrigation system would help, but you run the problem of fungus here in Mid TN. At a seminar I attended, a lecturer from The University of TN who studies fungus, told us how he produces large amounts of Brown Patch to study, he heavily fertilizes after the 15th of May.

RWise: Other than Fe, do you have any other suggestions to fill round 4, or just leave it out? You also mentioned going to 7 rounds, what else would you add? Thanks.

The price I quoted for TrueGreen/ChemLawn of $66.00 was a renewal for a client I obtained from them. They where charging this price on 10,000sqft. I calculated that I could do the same for about $45.47. The price I posted is a starting point for me. I got some help from my local Lesco manager who was a former TG/CL tech from this area, and was able to give me some ideas about my price format. He also said I was a little low on price.

The client I obtained from TG/CL is worth $3,000 to TG/CL, and he has agreed to pay me what he was paying TG/CL. It is an interesting account as it is comprised of four locations, a Cool Season Lawn, a Zosia Lawn, and two transmitter sites which need total vegetation control.

Going back to the first paragraph, I was thinking of changing round four out and offering an add on service, Tick/Flee/Ant suppression. Here in the south we suffer from Fire Ants, Ticks, Flees, Chiggers etc., much like what most of you guys see.

Another good point someone made was about the individuality of the client. Most clients fall into a general patten, but some throw a curve ball. Take this example: Even though it is not the preferable time to sow seed, I have a couple of clients who want a spring seeding. This throws my Pre-M out for the spring, and I have to change some of my fertilizer around to compensate. I might also have a heavy weed load on this grass if it thins during the summer because of juvenile root growth.

So far I have done a soil sample on all my clients, and will most likely do so for every new client. I charge $30.00 for the sample, which broken down is $14.00 for the test, and $16.00 for my time. As I do a bunch at the same time, it works out to be extra money in my pocket for little time, plus the client gets a copy of the results which they like looking at. Most of the soil test return a K which is very high, due I expect to the phosphate mines in the local area, and the pH is relatively good, but on new construction I have found that some of the top soil can have low pH. I think as I become more comfortable I will not test as often.

I'm going to go back over the posts, I may have some more questions or comments to post. Thanks for the comments.

Best Regards

[Hamons]

Time to pull this thread together.

Crewcut is brand new to the fertilizer side of things. He is getting licensed in April. He wants to have a basic program put together by Lesco. I gave him what my Lesco gave to me several years ago – but said that it was a terrible program for many reasons. Crew-cut said “but would love to learn and design my own program” SO we gave the Lesco program and started out on the journey to learn how to design a program unique to hime – for his area – for his niche – for his business and for his customers.

Now, this main goal has had some speedbumps and a few left turns. However, it has given us some good information.

We learned that all agronomy decisions have to be made in accordance to a business plan – not the other way around. Crewcut has stated that he is looking at the middle to high market customer.

This is where there have been some polarizing ideas. Many people say that you should focus on being lean and mean – keep your costs low. Applications is a high profit segment of our industry. Many many customers are fine with having a green weed free lawn. These customers are willing to pay a handsome sum for the service they are getting. However, there is a smaller segment of people ho want a golf course fairway as a lawn. They want maximum quality and are willing to pay even better for it. The type of business you run is a personal decision – both are profitable.

If you go the high volume route then you will choose cheaper materials – have more customers ad make lots of money. If you choose the higher quality market – you will spend much more time choosing your materials, learning the ins and outs of the science of growing grass and read great big long involved threads on lawnsite J I think the idea of debating which is a better system is pointless – I think it has more to do with your personality which is a better niche for you. Are you a quality driven person with an occasion to over analyze or are you a fast paced, stop for nothing Get ‘r Done type of guy. Choose the business that you are suited for!

From crewcut’s replys he seems to want to go the higher quality route. This means he will focus on the quality of fewer lawns and charge a higher price. He will learn the finer details of turf mngmt and how to grow the best stand of grass possible for his customers. Not just the best Lesco can provide.

With the assumption that we are going to help Crewcut make decisions to design a system for high-end clients -- then we are not going to use a product just because Lesco sells a lot of it. We are going to choose products because they are what turf needs to grow long term with maximum health. The kind of turf that you can stand on at 4 inches and not touch the ground. The kind of grass that people look at and say WOW!

This will make a base program that all clients lawns will benefit from. Then you will take a soil test of every single client. And make minor adjustment of pH and potassium and phos. In reality, nitrogen won’t change from a soil sample – it is so volatile that it is never stockpiled in a lawn and the grass is always going to need a certain amount of N and phos is so stable that few lawns in my experience are ever low. The biggest thing you are going to be adjusting based on your soil tests are your base saturations – if they are out of whack you are wanting your time and money on everything else you apply. So you will adjust this on each lawn – but they will almost all still get your same product. Adjustments usually come by adding more products rather than substituting from your base program.

[Bryn]

CrewCut

Thanks for the thread, I hope posting what I'm doing will give you an idea. We are in a similar boat, trying to figure out how to juggle all the balls that seem to be in play, and make money.

Best Regards

[James Cormier]

Jeff, Do you think someone just starting out in the treatment business can really be that kind of company and pull it off? I mean you can only learn so much on this site or another,

I would assume the customer you describe would not be willing to pay top dollar for a service knowing that the applicator is learning turf agronomics off lawn site. or as he/she goes along. Ive seen too many people out there talking to customers not knowing what there talking about just because they read it some where.

No disrespect to Crew, or anyone else reading this, but what you learn in the classroom, books or websites are not even close to what you learn in the field.

I just dont see how someone who is starting in this business can say I will focus on the quality of fewer lawns and charge a higher price. I will learn the finer details of turf mngmt and how to grow the best stand of grass possible for my customers. Not just the best Lesco can provide. Without any experience with turf.

[Hamons]

Good point James. But he has to start somewhere. I do not think he has to have an expensive program to make good decesions for the lawn.

And I do think that it doesn't ake much studying to quickly know more than 75% of the peopel around applying fert -- atleast in mya rea -- just takes a willingness and a propensity to learn.

I think expereince is impoprtant -- more important than anything I can tell him -- but he has to start somewhere. I want him to start a few steps up from the bottom.

[Bryn]

Crew, here is some basic equipment I bought when I started out. Hope it helps

I bought the Lesco Spreader for about $450, and have been very happy with it. It also has the drop spreader baffle at the back. We have a lot of subdivisions with the grass on the other side of the side walk which belongs to the home owner. These strips are about 2-4ft wide, so a rotary does not work, but the drop baffle does the trick. The spreader comes with a calibration tool, and I have found it to be helpful and accurate.

I also invested in a back pack sprayer, not perfect but will suffice for the time being, even though I have a 100G rig set up on the truck. Also you will need a blower to blow the fert of the side walks especially if it has Iron in it.

A coffee can and a scale. I have a list of every product I use and how much a coffee can of that products weighs. When I'm at a clients site, I can fill the spreader with just the right amount of product, and spread until the hopper is empty. This is not something you need to do all the time, but it is a good check of the calibration if you have a nice square or rectangle property to spread on. If you run out too soon or too late then you may need to look at your spreader settings, or drink less caffeine products :)

I like to know the size of the property I'm working on, so I tend to prefer a measuring wheel. Some guys can knock out a sqfootage and be within 5%, I'm just not that good.

Soil probe for soil samples is another tool I have bought. I have found them to be expensive, and not easily found on the Internet. This may be more to do with my google search. Any suggestions from the members?

Also a good hand lens. A 10x and a 7x should be all you need. Try and find one with the widest lens, so you have more to view. The higher the magnification the smaller the field of view.

I know this is a little of topic for this thread, but I thought it might be helpful.


Best Regards

[Dman1214]

Hamons, I think your assumption that if you are a volume LCO, that you are not quality minded and the "niche" LCOs have the science end of the market cornered. Probably a little arrogant, don't you think? I have stayed out of this thread lately (refer to my earlier posts if you care to), but felt compelled to interject. The "quality" component of our service is not limited to the products that you use. What if you have a tech who doesn't apply the products properly? What if the guy's lazy and doesn't take the time necessary to do the proper weed control? Or he leaves a stupid note on an invoice? I will take a company culture that creates an environment where the employees are well trained, feel good about themsevles and their jobs who use a little less quality products than a company that uses superior products as the end all be all. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying that is your company, just making a point.

My approach to lawn care is a volume based business, I don't want to be an owner/operator or even a 2 or 3 truck operation. The challenge and rewards I get from the business are clearly different than the smaller guy. I do not begrude them at all. However, I have seen very, very few niche players you can and do grow their businesses significantly. I believe that the owner has to be far too involved with the individual properties and the overcustomization of their programs.

I believe you can give clients a superior service and do it on a large scale, but it takes a lot more than using high-end products.

[Hamons]

D-Man-- I think I was misunderstood.

The type of business you run is a personal decision – both are profitable.

I think the idea of debating which is a better system is pointless – I think it has more to do with your personality which is a better niche for you.

By the very nature of being high volume then you are saying other things don't matter. Soil Tests are a perfect example. This is something you are not going to do if every technician has 350 customer rounds -- no way. and you can grow very good grass without a soil test. However, a company who focuses on fewer clients can do that and take a lawn to the next level.

I also agree that the quality of service you give to the customer is far apramount to the quality of the service you give to the grass.

I really am not trying to push Crewcut to using "expensive" products. Just helping him make smart choices on products.

I was Instandt Messenging Crewcut yesterdaya nd got soem clariifcaation on what he wants his program to look like. He wants to try and get annual product costs down to around $5 or $6 per 1000. So that is our challenge. What is the BEST program we can help him develop for that money.

I would think that means his rd 1 will be the most expensive, but needs to come in under $1.50/k What do you think?

[Hamons]

Crewcut -- What do you think about using the 18-0-10. We can atleast start with
that product for the spring application and then look go onto rd. 2 application.

THe only concern I have witht hat product is the .21AI -- I do not have expereince using that forulation and therfore cannot jusdge how effective -- or ineffective it would be!

[DLS1]

Hey Hamons, are you still a schoolteacher. I notice you have been posting during the day. Are you on your PC instead of teaching the class. :D :D

[Russ]

Jeff is teaching class. He is just not gettin paid for this one. Good Work Jeff.

[Hamons]

Yes I am still a school teacher.

I have a couple breaks here and ther throughout the day -- no school today though -- Turkey break.

[James Cormier]

D-Man-- II was Instandt Messenging Crewcut yesterdaya nd got soem clariifcaation on what he wants his program to look like. He wants to try and get annual product costs down to around $5 or $6 per 1000. So that is our challenge. What is the BEST program we can help him develop for that money.

I would think that means his rd 1 will be the most expensive, but needs to come in under $1.50/k What do you think?

Jeff, I hope you know that someone that wants his price per k to be this low, is not going to be a top notch fert treatment company. I think his best bet would be to sit down with the lesco rep in his area and come up with a program to meet his cost needs.

I think that Dman was commenting on Rwise's post more, correct me if Im wrong dman.

[PR Fect]

I took out my cost sheet from last Spring to see what cost us less than $1.50 per K. It all did. Here are some of the prices, not all are Lesco but the price per K was all under $ 1.50 no mater what vender we purchased from.
OUR COST
Speed Zone Herbicide $ 1.53 per K
Riverdale Triplet $ .65 per K
Trimec Classic $ .76 per K
Trimec Plus $ 1.89 per K (OPPS)
Three Way $ .53 per K
18-3-7 + .103 Dimension 25% SCU $1.39 per K
19-0-6 + .1 Dimension $ .96 per K
30-3-9 50% Poly S 2% Fe $ 1.33 per K
32-3-8 30% SCU 2% Fe $ .61 per K
20-6-12 $ .58 per K

Just add your cost per hour for labor and equipment, and then you can sent your rates.

[trying 2b organic]

Bryn in the prgm you posted there is not weed control for the fall apps. Do you also use backpack to spot treat at same trip as fert apps? Do you do weed control for the only the early fall app as we do here since weeds are growing to slowly after Oct. 1 to make weed control be very effective. (it seems) ty.

PR fect. If you are doing a fert app, invoicing on site. Then going a week or even 2 later to do a weed control app, invoicing, wouldt your customer rather you did them both in one trip and left one invoice. Plus the theory of more trips equals more money has to be wieghed against pricing effectivly against the competition. I think you make more profit and better service by having 6 or 8 steps in 4 trips and breaking the yrly prgm price into 4 equal payments.

I think this is very relavant to the thread because the fert prgm will be married to weed control and priced as such. This wont effect how much the price per k end up as but will effect profit since time is money.

[PR Fect]

PR fect. If you are doing a fert app, invoicing on site. Then going a week or even 2 later to do a weed control app, invoicing, wouldt your customer rather you did them both in one trip and left one invoice. Plus the theory of more trips equals more money has to be wieghed against pricing effectivly against the competition. I think you make more profit and better service by having 6 or 8 steps in 4 trips and breaking the yrly prgm price into 4 equal payments.

I think this is very relavant to the thread because the fert prgm will be married to weed control and priced as such. This wont effect how much the price per k end up as but will effect profit since time is money.

Agreed. Very relevant. In my area the big guys Spring Green, TGCL, sell by price per application. They sell a low per application price, then they sell a 2,5,6 8, 10 step program. Then then give a discount if all is pre paid in the Spring. So that said, when I try to sell, they want a low per application price. If I try and sell them a seasonal price they think I am to high even though you and I know it could be cheeper for them. So I give a per app price and invoice them once a month on the 15th for the work done that month. It cost me more time, but I'm on the clients clock.

[turf hokie]

James-- I have agreed with you on most of your points, although I havent said so. I too only test lawns that appear to have a problem so I know exactly what is needed to correct. If it ain't broke....

But just because you wish to have you cost per k under 1.50 doesn't mean you are going to give inferior service. As aggressive as I am with sales, I do the same with my vendors. I buy from Lesco b/c nobody else competes with their price and I don't need a lot of hand holding.

I agree with PRfect
13-2-5 .10 dimension 30%ppscu --1.07 / k
21-3-21 75 % ppscu 2 FE MOP/SOP-- .95 / k
18-0-18 50%ppscu 4Fe SOP/MOP -- .97/k
32-5-7 25%ppscu .56 / k

Momentum .76 / k

I admit I have it easier b/c of Symbiot I readily admit that, but look into getting in. If your area won't allow you in. Price shop, I still do. Become a player don't let the game come to you.

Crew cut is going to have to pay a little more to start until he builds a relationship with his supplier and carries a little more weight.

I started of with 250k and got low tier pricing. Talk yourself up, nobody is going to do it for you.

This isn't a pat on the back for me it is me saying "If I can do so can you".

[James Cormier]

James-- I have agreed with you on most of your points,

But just because you wish to have you cost per k under 1.50 doesn't mean you are going to give inferior service. As aggressive as I am with sales, I do the same with my vendors. I buy from Lesco b/c nobody else competes with their price and I don't need a lot of hand holding.

I agree with PRfect
13-2-5 .10 dimension 30%ppscu --1.07 / k
21-3-21 75 % ppscu 2 FE MOP/SOP-- .95 / k
18-0-18 50%ppscu 4Fe SOP/MOP -- .97/k
32-5-7 25%ppscu .56 / k

Momentum .76 / k

".

Turf, chemical cost per K has nothing to do with inferior service, all I was trying to say was, earlier in the post everyone was talking about High priced fert materials, and going after High end customers ( IMO those are usually the cheapest and shop around the most and buy just on price ) then to find out he wanted to keep his price per k so low,

And in this " program " that was outlined there is no Insect control or Disease treatment budgeted into it or lime. Again if your gonna be " nordstroms " as Jeff puts it, then somewhere along the way your gonna apply, merit, dylox and some fungi's and lime. If your not budgeting that into your cost per k then your not doing your budget right.


I have no problem with low chemical costs. I do shop around on prices, however one way I look at things is like this. I dont move on my prices, if someone tries to get me to adjust my prices I just say no, and move on. When I sit down with a supplier I explain that to them, and I offer the same respect to them, I expect to get the best price they can give me right off the bat. I know that dosnt happen all the time. Thats just the way I like to do business

[turf hokie]

James-It seemed to me that everyone was equating high material cost with high end customer. And it looked like you said if your material cost is low then your cannot provide to a high end customer. Sorry if I misread that. I shop around b/c it doesn't seem like anyone ever gives their best price without knowing you will compare it somewhere else. Although there is a lot to be said for vendor loyalty, I have not bought elsewhere unless my vendor could not obtain the product.

And your right a "high end customer" will not want to hear that fungicide or lime is an "extra" and they are the first to call about the crabgrass in the corner between the road and the driveway.

I was giving a basic program in my last post for someone that understands merit, lime etc is not inlcluded. But then again I am marketing to the middle of the road customer, someone that appreciates what a good looking lawn but also understands that we deal with mother nature and insects and disease can happen.

[timturf]

I was giving a basic program in my last post for someone that understands merit, lime etc is not inlcluded. But then again I am marketing to the middle of the road customer, someone that appreciates what a good looking lawn but also understands that we deal with mother nature and insects and disease can happen.

You can't garentee a weed, insect, or disease free lawn! Customers need to understand their may be some turf thinning or loss due to factors beyond the control of fert and pest applicator!

What factors? Like proper mowing, watering, aerification, environment, and of course, MOTHER NATURE!

Even gc superintendents have turf thinning and loss, and they usually have large amount of money/m to work with, and people on site daily to observe the turf!

I believe many of the applicaters in the fert and pest business make unrealistic promises to our clients!

Again, its only a home lawn, not a golf green, or tee!!!!!!!!

[Dman1214]

Timturf - Couldn't agree with you more. Setting realistic expectations during the sales presentation and reinforcing those expectations throughout the season is paramount to customer retention.

[timturf]

So Where Is Crewcutenterprise?

[DLS1]

So Where Is Crewcutenterprise?

I think it got to convoluted with twisting and turning like a bad mountainous two lane road for him to follow all the comments.

So I assume Crewcut is going to Lesco to ask them to recommend a 4 - 6 step plan for him. Lots of good comments in this thread but probably way to much for a newby to absorb at this point in time.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Thankyou DLS, you hit it right on the head.

but thankyou all for your information.. too bad im more confused than ever on this subject.. i guess its a trial of seeing what works and doesnt work.

thanks alot
Jason Rohrbaugh
but... i did learn alot.

[trying 2b organic]

I learned a lot, plus it inspired me to design and price next yrs prgms while its all fresh which I did. Now I just have to sell them, thats the real challenge. :)

[PR Fect]

Hey, it helped me double think my program. Some changes may be made. Crewcut do not stop now, lets get your second round choice.

[timturf]

What was his choice for round 1?

[PR Fect]

Basic Fertilizer Program
4 Applications
1. Spring Application March DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU
2. Early Summer Application May Fill in
3. Late Summer Application July
4. Fall Application September

Premium Fertilizer Program
6 Applications
Spring 1 pre-emergence with Fertilizer DIMENSION 0.21% 18-0-10 50%PPSCU
Spring 2 March – April
Mid Summer Application June
Late Summer Application July
Fall Application September
Winter Application November
This was his pick back at post #103. Took me a wile to find it, this thread has gone in so many directions. To bring it back, He was looking for a starting point for a 4 and then a six step program he could sell in Zone 5, cool season grasses, no irrigation, no soil test. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Bryn]

trying 2b organic,

Yes I use a backpack sprayer at time of application for weed control. We do have a problem with Winter annuals, but most lawns I can easily control with a backpack.

[Rwise10230]

Since few posts have been made lately, i can only assume that most people realized that we're trying to determine the perfect program for 14 million zones!

I tell ya.....get the soil test.......and go from there! Don't follow a "canned" program like some software programs!

[Hamons]

Actually... I disagree. I think that a base program based on sound agronomic principles forr cool seaso grass could be used in all parts of th US with slight changes in timing etc.

However, this thread was stopped because of it being taken way off topic and it was no longer helpful to the person asking the questions.

I think the thread was ona good tracj -- professionalls discussing the hard decesions about what amterials to use based on the fine dance between agronomics and economics. We all doa little differnt. In some of our business' agronomics leads and some economics leads --thats the aprt that is not universal with all of us.

There was good info in this thread ad I think it could have continued -- but many people were taking farr off course. and new people were joining in without reading all of the other posts which all was frustrating.

A soilid base program that all programs customers is based on is what works well for me. EVERy customers exact applications are then based on speciific site conditions and soil tests.

[PR Fect]

A soilid base program that all programs customers is based on is what works well for me. EVERy customers exact applications are then based on speciific site conditions and soil tests.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. You start with a soiled basic program, and as a professional you "read" the turfs needs and add or subtract from that program. This would also include changes made to the same property from time to time as site conditions change. And the degree of care the client wants of is willing to pay for. So what Lesco product do we think for round two?

[LonniesLawns]

I wonder what crewcut chose for Rd#1? Did he go with Lescos decesion based on what products they make the biggest profit from or did he go with the more agronomically sound choice?

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Product Item # Size Nutrient lb/ 1000 sq ft Rate/1000sq ft Coverage/Unit Total Units Cost / Unit Cost/1000sq ft Total Product Cost
Dimension + fert (Crabgrass Control) 053690 50 lb .75 lb N 5.6 lbs 8,920 $21.55
Momentum + fert (Weed & Feed) 069141 50 lb .75 lb N 3.6 lbs 13,880 $28.25
Merit + fert (grub Control) 082028 50 lb .50 lb N 3.5 lbs 14,285 $56.85
or 18-0-18 50% (Summer Fert) 080088 50 lb .50 lb N 3.0 lbs 16,660 $16.80
Transition Blend (Seed) 007330 50 lb N/A 4-6 lbs Varies 1.07 /lb
18-24-12 25% (Starter Fert) 016420 50 lb 1 lb. P/.75N 4.2 lbs 12,000 $17.45
32-5-7 50% 007458 50 lb 1 lb N 3.2 lbs 16,000 $17.40
Limestone Pelletized 008979 50 lb 25 lbs/+ $4.45

Momentum Broadleaf Herbicide 062444 1 Gal

[CrewCutEnterprises]

Ok, I got this from lesco, this is what they recommend. Now i need to break the pricing down to per 1000 square feet with a 8000 or so sq foot min. I dunno how to price this stuff.

[CrewCutEnterprises]

i couldent post an attachment in excel to this forum so i copy and pasted it the best i could. If anyone would like it i can email it to u in excell

[CrewCutEnterprises]

ok here it is in doc form

[LonniesLawns]

If you just walk up to Lesco and used there canned program - what makes you stand out from others in your area. Why should I pay you and not someone else that can pusha spreader?

The money in fertilizing does not come from the difficulty in pushing a spreader -- it comes from the knowledge of plant nutrition and how your interventions can most accurately help grass grow.

In mowing, we get paid big $ for the cost of our equipment and the difficulty of the work. In fertilizing you get paid for your knowledge.

[timturf]

Too much spring and summer n!!!!!!!!!

[tremor]

A half pound is too much N? Bulk blended ferts can't be applied much lower.
This is a fine program for irrigated Bluegrass arounf here.
How much less is the consumer expected to realize value from?

[LonniesLawns]

Tremor,

I agree with you. Not practical to use blended ferts much less than 2.5#/1000. However, he could use other Lesco products more soundly.

Somewhat hard to tell exactly the dates and such -- but it looks like you are applying a spring app of premergents and a early and late summer fert. You end up with 2# of N before the end of summer.

Tremor -- is this the BEST program for irrigated bluegrass on a residential customers yard?

I think the customer woud realize a better value from a program designed according to the best agronomy.

Now Tremor, I went back and read some posts of yours and obviously you know more about the care of lawns then I even come close too.

So I guess we should ask you? If you were running a lawn care business - is this a program you would use?

[tremor]

The "best" program is the one that maximizes the applicators profit while delivering the consumers expectations without sacrificing some basic agronomic & environmental principals.

Without pouring over all the posts to this thread to see if we ever had a clue as to CrewCut's local soil issues, I'd say that this program is probably more than adequate.

13-2-5 Dimension
21-0-12 Momentum
14-0-14 Merit
or 18-0-18 50% (Summer Fert)
Transition Blend (Seed)
18-24-12 25% (Starter Fert)
32-5-7 50%
Limestone Pelletized

I don't recommend granular herbicides but I understand their appeal so long as CC understands their limitations & sets a realistic expectation with his customers.

In this part of the country we don't need 1#P just for overseeding so that wouldn't fly here in CT.

CC, Consider this if Crab pressure is high where you are:

R1 (APR1) 13-2-5 Dimension (half pound N)
R2 (MAY15) 13-2-5 Dimension (half pound N) <spray or 0-0-7 Momentum>
R3 (JUN15) 14-0-14 Merit or 18-0-18 (half pound N)
R4 (SEP1) 24-5-11 (1#N) <18-24-12 if seeding>
R5 (OCT15) 32-5-7 (1.5#N)
R6 (NOV) Lime

The first 2 applications now have room to increase the N for new clients while still in the legal herbicide range. We're also avoiding one big slug of Dimension (8-10 weeks of control) with 2 smaller ones (16-20 weeks control). So Crabgrass efficacy improves.

Now we're not juggling the dicey timing of a granular post-emergent herbicide with the need for timely Merit Grub control.

Just a thought.

[timturf]

A half pound is too much N? Bulk blended ferts can't be applied much lower.
This is a fine program for irrigated Bluegrass arounf here.
How much less is the consumer expected to realize value from?

A half pound is too much N?
His first three applications is a total of 2.0lbs/m of n, way too much spring and summer nitrogen, unless a very high % is win from a source that will take a minimum of 16 weeks to deliver! University recommendations, Va Tech, is a minimum of 66% of nitrogen applied to be available to plant in fall and winter!!!!!!!! His first three applications are delivering 2.0lbs of n/m, while the last two deliver 1.75lbs of n/m! I'm assuming these lesco products he picked out are scu products. I believe he's growing a tt tallfescue, maybe even some common bermunda their, but can belief he's growing any straight bluegrass!

[timturf]

The "best" program is the one that maximizes the applicators profit while delivering the consumers expectations without sacrificing some basic agronomic & environmental principals.

Without pouring over all the posts to this thread to see if we ever had a clue as to CrewCut's local soil issues, I'd say that this program is probably more than adequate.

13-2-5 Dimension
21-0-12 Momentum
14-0-14 Merit
or 18-0-18 50% (Summer Fert)
Transition Blend (Seed)
18-24-12 25% (Starter Fert)
32-5-7 50%
Limestone Pelletized

I don't recommend granular herbicides but I understand their appeal so long as CC understands their limitations & sets a realistic expectation with his customers.

In this part of the country we don't need 1#P just for overseeding so that wouldn't fly here in CT.

CC, Consider this if Crab pressure is high where you are:

R1 (APR1) 13-2-5 Dimension (half pound N)
R2 (MAY15) 13-2-5 Dimension (half pound N) <spray or 0-0-7 Momentum>
R3 (JUN15) 14-0-14 Merit or 18-0-18 (half pound N)
R4 (SEP1) 24-5-11 (1#N) <18-24-12 if seeding>
R5 (OCT15) 32-5-7 (1.5#N)
R6 (NOV) Lime

The first 2 applications now have room to increase the N for new clients while still in the legal herbicide range. We're also avoiding one big slug of Dimension (8-10 weeks of control) with 2 smaller ones (16-20 weeks control). So Crabgrass efficacy improves.

Now we're not juggling the dicey timing of a granular post-emergent herbicide with the need for timely Merit Grub control.

Just a thought.

The "best" program is the one that maximizes the applicators profit while delivering the consumers expectations without sacrificing some basic agronomic & environmental principals

Well put tremor!

I don't recommend granular herbicides but I understand their appeal so long as CC understands their limitations & sets a realistic expectation with his customers

Again, I agree tremor!

CC, Consider this if Crab pressure is high where you are:

R1 (APR1) 13-2-5 Dimension (half pound N)
R2 (MAY15) 13-2-5 Dimension (half pound N) <spray or 0-0-7 Momentum>
R3 (JUN15) 14-0-14 Merit or 18-0-18 (half pound N)
R4 (SEP1) 24-5-11 (1#N) <18-24-12 if seeding>
R5 (OCT15) 32-5-7 (1.5#N)
R6 (NOV) Lime

I believe this is a much better program for him trevor, but still a little bit too much nitrogen in spring and summer!

R4 (SEP1) 24-5-11 (1#N) <18-24-12 if seeding> If seeding, proably too much p, unless a soil test indicates a defiency

R6 (NOV) Lime[/B] Only if soil test requires, and make sure you use the correct lime! does it need calicitic, or dolomitic?

[RyanD]

First of all, this thread has helped me understand the business so much more than I did. Now, I am basically in the same spot that he (crewcut) was/is in. I will be taking the test in Febraury. I am in the process of bidding a few jobs and have to have my program figured out obviously.

I was going to do 4 apps of fert. mid-mar/mid-may/late-sept/mid-nov

I was going to use a combo product w/Dimension. I want to make sure I understand how many lbs. to use per 1000 in order for the dim to be effective in a product with .10DIM, .15DIM, .21DIM. Thanks for the help.

[TurfProSTL]

Doing 1 shot in March, I would go with .375 lb AIA in KC.

Thats 8.6 lbs/1000 of the .10; 5.7 lbs of the .15; or 4 lbs of the .21.

(.375 lb AIA divided by .21 percent = 178.6 lbs per acre divided by 43.56 = 4 lbs / 1000)

Good luck on your test.....

[RyanD]

Thanks for the help turfpro. What I am trying to figure out now is when to fert. This is what the Missouri extension office has on their website:

Common type Kentucky bluegrasses (2-3 lbs/yr) and Tall fescue or ryegrass (3-4 lbs/yr) in may sept oct. This runs alittle contrary to what I had learned on this site and what other fert co. do around here. Is there anything wrong with a dose of fert in march with Dim? Also, previous posts in this thread indicate you should only apply so much fert in the spring and that 1.5lbs/1000 would be too much. How much is too much in the spring? Thanks again guys!

[lilmarvin4064]

Here is my program for high end clients. I'm in the bottom of the transition zone (kind of). Mostly cool season grasses 'round here, some bermuda (considered a weed in most home lawns, but very prevalent along roadsides) and a little zoysia. The biggest problems are drought (mid May - mid Sept) and brown patch.

March through mid-April
Dimension .1% 13-2-5, 30% PPSCU or
Dimension .1% 19-3-6, 50% PPSCU (lower rate)

Mid-April through May
Dimension .15% 19-0-19 Mini, 100% PPSCU, SOP (not cheap!)

June through August
1 or 2 apps of 14-0-27 Mini, 100% PPSCU, SOP

Sept through mid-Oct
18-24-12 (w/seed) or
20-10-10, 50% PPSCU or
24-5-11 or
28-5-12
(depending on soil test results) :gunsfirin


After mid-Oct
32-5-7

I also have a 20-0-25 (100% PPSCU, SOP) custom blend that I sometimes use for the first summer app. Costs about the same as 21-3-21.

In my opinion you don't want to skimp on the Late Spring app, especially in the southern Transition zone where you have cool season grasses. Too much soluble N and not enough K can lead to heavy disease pressure.

[LonniesLawns]

On cool-season lawns that I regularly main in KC -- i keep my Nitrogen as low as possible -- usuallya round .5#N/M. Sometime this will creep up alittle depending on the products I am using.

The problem is with the combo products available. They tend to be cheap junk or way too high priced.

What I expereimented with this year is a late fall application of barricade at season long rate. Distributor has garuanteed all season control or he'll buy all the drive to respray and refund product cost. This way I was able to us an All mineeral high nitrogen combo product int he fall and will be ble to use a better fertilizer in the spring.

However, in your case I would look for the lowest N combo product you could find and most of that should be slow release.

Hope this helps. Glad to see this thread kept alive.

[TurfProSTL]

Thanks for the help turfpro. What I am trying to figure out now is when to fert. This is what the Missouri extension office has on their website:

Common type Kentucky bluegrasses (2-3 lbs/yr) and Tall fescue or ryegrass (3-4 lbs/yr) in may sept oct. This runs alittle contrary to what I had learned on this site and what other fert co. do around here. Is there anything wrong with a dose of fert in march with Dim? Also, previous posts in this thread indicate you should only apply so much fert in the spring and that 1.5lbs/1000 would be too much. How much is too much in the spring? Thanks again guys!

That's probably good advise if you're treating your own piece of turf (and remember the bluegrass dosage they quoted is for common KBG.)

If you want to compete and make money, lower your rates and make more trips. This also allows you to scout the lawn for weeds and other problems and take necessary action in a timely manner.

I avoid N rates higher than .75 lb actual except in the fall. I also try to use products that have at least 30% of controlled release nitrogen. (50% in summer.) Higher rates of quick release N can promote disease, especially Brown Patch. Lower rates also keep the boss off my @ss - he runs the mowing division.....