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View Full Version : Dump Truck for pulling MTL on trailer.....


Green Pastures
11-06-2004, 09:01 PM
Looking at Ford F-450, 550, 650 and dreaming of a 750.

What do you use? I need something that will hold at LEAST 4 yards of dirt/rock and still tow the loaded trailer home.........

I need the dump for sure. Have to have a cover for the load.

Want 4X4.

TerraFirma Excavating
11-07-2004, 02:28 PM
There are a lot of variables that need to be answered by you before a good recommendation can be made.

1.) What type of trailer are you getting and how much does it weigh? I assume it would be a tag trailer and weigh somewhere between 4,000# - 8,000#.

2.) Assume the MTL weighs about 8,000#.

3.) Do you need 4x4? The F-450 and F-550's can be purchased with 4x4. Larger trucks can have it added aftermarket, althought International sells a factory version in their 7300 series.

4.) Diesel engine or gas? Most larger trucks won't be available with gas engines.

5.) Do you want to keep the truck below CDL (Commercial Drivers License) requirements? This would be a big factor in choosing a truck AND the trailer. Hauling 4 yards of dirt or gravel (~12,000#) and pulling a trailer with the MTL would definately put you in the CDL requirement catagory.

6.) Price range, the most limiting factor in the whole equation. New, I don't think you can even get a F-550 with a dump box for less than $55,000, especially with the diesel engine ($4,200 more than gas engine).

UNISCAPER
11-07-2004, 07:52 PM
In a rare pinch we can use the F-450 or 4500 Chevy to do what you mention. And that is a rare pinch, only if we need to drive a few miles. Still way too much for those trucks on a day in day out basis.
The bare minumum I would recommend is a 6500 Chevy, 650 Ford, or Kenworth T-300 with a 220HP Cat diesel and 10 speed tranny, or a 5 speed with a split rear end. If you want to yuppify, go with an Allison auto in the class 6 truck. The MTL (Cat 257B) with 6 way blade, forks, and tooth bucket weigh in at 11,600 lbs.

The ideal truck in our application is our roll off trucks. We have a Peterbuilt and Mack Granite roll off dump, both tandem axles with air brakes. Drive the MTL and all it's attachments into the box, tie it down, and crank it up, then go off to work, or, load the box with 10 tns of material, hook up to the trailer and have at it.

I prefer heavier rather than the exact size you need.

Green Pastures
11-08-2004, 07:37 PM
There are a lot of variables that need to be answered by you before a good recommendation can be made.

1.) What type of trailer are you getting and how much does it weigh? I assume it would be a tag trailer and weigh somewhere between 4,000# - 8,000#.

Type.....I don't know yet, I'm still looking. I'm running into the same problem with buying a trailer though as with deciding on a truck. I can get a trailer that will be just enough for a MTL and a pair of attatchments 12,000# capacity that costs about $4500 and weighs about 4000# OR I can go bigger and more expensive that will hold 18,000# I forgot what that one weighs.

2.) Assume the MTL weighs about 8,000#.

MTL is appx. 8000# with the attatchments..

3.) Do you need 4x4? The F-450 and F-550's can be purchased with 4x4. Larger trucks can have it added aftermarket, althought International sells a factory version in their 7300 series.

Yes, I'd prefer 4 X 4 but I don't know if I need it on the larger trucks like the F-650......but I don't know squat....you tell me. I'm really leaning towards the F-650 after just visiting a dealer today and telling him my needs and what I want the truck for. Our CDl limit here is 26,000 GVW and the F-650 is right at 26,000. As I said before, I'd rather get bigger than what I need so that I don't get 3 months down the road and thing to myself "I should have got XXX instead of XXX" Know what I mean?

4.) Diesel engine or gas? Most larger trucks won't be available with gas engines.

Diesel for sure.

5.) Do you want to keep the truck below CDL (Commercial Drivers License) requirements? This would be a big factor in choosing a truck AND the trailer. Hauling 4 yards of dirt or gravel (~12,000#) and pulling a trailer with the MTL would definately put you in the CDL requirement catagory.

I'd like to NOT have to get a CDL, but again, it looks as if I get what I think I can use and grow into rather than just getting a truck that will get me by, I'm getting into a truck that forces me to go CDL.....The F-650 will do what I want and can be had in a non CDL model.....

6.) Price range, the most limiting factor in the whole equation. New, I don't think you can even get a F-550 with a dump box for less than $55,000, especially with the diesel engine ($4,200 more than gas engine).

Doesn't really matter, I need the equipment to get the jobs to be able to make the $$ to pay for the equipment. I'm tired of renting and the people I'm renting from are even telling me I rent to often not to buy.

It's not that money is no object, it is, but really it's not a question because I have to have the equipment to grow and right now I need to grow.

I'm COMPLETELY clueless though as to what I should get. I've only recently started looking at various dealers and asking questions. The answers to the questions I've asked have helped but actually only made me have even more questions.

I'm currently just gathering intelligence and knowledge so I can begin to form my plan and opinion on what I need.

I need advice from people who have been down this road before. I need for you guy's to tell me what to avoid and what to pursue. I need to learn from your experiences. That's why I'm here asking questions, I have no idea what I need, I only know what I want.

Thanks for your help.

Green Pastures
11-08-2004, 07:47 PM
I'd love it if your guy's could post Pics of your trucks.........

Electra_Glide
11-09-2004, 07:54 AM
Green Pastures,

Also keep in mind that if you go above a 10000# trailer, you're also in CDL territory. It's true you can get the F650 configured for 26000#, but as soon as you put any trailer behind it that weighs more than 10000# you're still going to need a CDL.

As TerraFirma said, it's important to look at both the truck AND the trailer when figuring out CDL requirements.

FWIW, I'm in the same situation as you...trying to figure out what can and cannot be done legally without a CDL. Since I want to be able to pull either a skidsteer or a mini excavator, I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I need to just bite the bullet and get my CDL.

Joe Kantz

UNISCAPER
11-09-2004, 09:09 AM
Understand also...It is not just the GVW of the truck/trailer combo. Sure, by keeping the empty GVW's below the requirements, you don't need a CDL. But, as soon as your gross weight with loads go beyond that posted GVW, you will also be required to have a CDL. All you need is a well informed DOT officer to drive you over a scale, and then it is time to get oujt your check book...Well, actually, cash credit card or certified check. Most DOT overweight officers will not take checks. And, you usually pay before you get to move the truck, then you get a court date to go argue why you should get your money back. 99.9% of the time, you ain't getting a dime back, it is all about revenue collection, not the safety the officers claim they enforce.

Green Pastures
11-09-2004, 09:57 AM
It's sounding like I need to just get the CDL but still work on keeping the limits under the CDL.

I've heard that pretty often State Troopers will pull these "barely under" CDL requirement trucks and weigh them just to keep them honest.

It's just all the additional fees and taxes associated with a CDL I'm trying to avoid.

UNISCAPER
11-09-2004, 11:07 AM
The age old ploy by most DOT/Troopers is they are keeping the roads safe and saving the longevity of the pavement by enforcing overweight trucks.

It's all crap. In many states, they have 100,000 lb weight limits and thier roads are better than the ones that have weight limits at 80,000 lbs. The whole gig is about collecting revenue for the politicians, who, god forbid, can't talk about raising taxes. Imagine for a minute if we say, raised the price of a license plate, and allowed weights on trucks to go higher. Then we take that officer off the revenue collecting job and put him in real law enforcment, like, keeping kids away from the morons who deal drugs or the street gangs, or even running down people who steal lawn equipment, which, when taken, you never see again.

The DOT officers job is to collect revenue for that state. Every overweight truck he stops has to pay fines, and I have had some in excess of $5,000.00. Now, tell me for a minute, anyone who knows exactly what a dump truck pulling out of a field with a load of clay weighs. Unless you buy an onboard scale, at a cost of $6,000.00 plus, you can't tell. When they stop you, you pay before you move the truck. They smile and say now, beofre you move, I have to say that you should unload the overweight, or you could get another ticket....They then add that "I won;t do that, but, another officer could" Well, hello...He figures he already got you for a grand or so, and why be greedy.

Nope, Green pastures, I would get a CDL and keep it. And with that, learn how much weight you can place on each axle of the truck without gettign dinged. And, make sure the truck you have has enough clasification on the plates to carry the legal load, or, they can fine you not only for being over on the axles, they will nail you for overwight on the plates. And, say you are driving with no plates, even if it is just to move the truck from one yard to the next. Then, they take the entire weight of the vehicle and since there is no plate, they call the gross weight the amount that you were over the limit. And they won't allow you to go to the cash station to pay the fine, you have to sit there until someone brings you the money.

I think I have learned the hardway, everything that you don't want to do when driving a heavy truck. And no one for a second will convince me that these officers are out there to enforce safety. It is about revenue collection for towns and states whose politicians don't dare raise taxes.

Sad but true

Gravel Rat
11-09-2004, 01:04 PM
If you are going to want to pack gravel and pull a trailer with a piece of equipment behind it on a trailer a F-450 or F-550 is out not even in the consideration. What you need is a single axle 5 ton dump something with 23,000lb rear axle 12,000lb front axle minimum 7 litre 6 cylinder engine 10L is better with 8 or 9 spd.

I wouldn't even consider a F-650 its a POS if you want a good medium duty dump look into a International 7600 single axle its the type of truck you want because it has good specs for a single axle dump. You spec the truck with ISM Cummins power or C-11 power both 300hp and both have JAKE brakes. I would also consider a Mack Granite CV712 they make a single axle I would probably choose this over the International. My preference in trucks is Kenworths but the T-300 has pizz poor engine choices. The new Mack Granite series is becoming very popular truck Mack has finally built a truck that isn't ugly.

I have to shake my head every time I see you guys fighting the stupid idiotic law you need a CDL if the gvw is over 26,000lbs. It makes people buy trucks that are undersized for the jobs they want todo. If you didn't have that stupid law you could buy a single axle dump with a 35,000lb gvw it would be on air so you would need a endorsement to operate a air braked vehical.

I don't know how small you want to stick with if you are going to buy a single axle it should have a minimum GVW of 33,000lbs. You may want to consider buying a used truck if your worried about spending too much. If I was on a budget and looking for a good single axle dump I would be looking for a L-9000 Ford hard to find but they are out there you may have to build one.

ksss
11-10-2004, 06:46 PM
Don't even get me started on DOT. Last year we were hauling for another excavation company with our Side Dump tractor trailer. We were hauling out a small pit that did not have a set of scales. Got stopped by a roving DOT. Weight was 124,000 licensed for 80,000 = $3750.00 fine. The truck is a big power Cummins 18 speed, 4:11 rears. It pulls 80K like 125K. I made a deal with the prosecuter That if I purchased an onboard scale system he would drop the charge. Cost $5,700 (Vulcan 600). Probably the best thing I could have done as it turned out. A legal load of pitrun doesn't come close to filling the tub, but were legal.

bigz1001
11-10-2004, 07:46 PM
I find these fines and such interesting, especially the one loaded from the pit. In WV there was a big fuss of overweight coal trucks(only way to turn a profit) so they raised the legal limit on many of the roads, and now instead of the operator being fined, they all go straight to the company that loaded the truck. Interesting.

UNISCAPER
11-10-2004, 09:31 PM
Once again....They push thier crap about safe roads off to us all...There is one reason and one reason only that overwights are assessed. It is an easy way the politicians get off from raising taxes by bringing in more revenues to the states. In one week, the city of St. Charles Illinois paid for a 1 ton van and the scales from heavy trucks. The streets are no safer from the fines. Seems to me if the police were put back on true crime issues, and weights were raised for truck loads, we could make cities safer without hiring more cops, and the added revenues from license plates would more than cover the tax issue.

No matter what story from whoever on this board, there is one thing to hear well. Follow the weight/CDL/class restrictions of your state or you will be in for an ankle holding adventure......

Green Pastures
11-10-2004, 11:10 PM
Weight was 124,000 licensed for 80,000 = $3750.00 fine.



;) That's absolutey ridiculous. ;)

I'm going to have to do a bit more research.

Mdirrigation
11-11-2004, 07:45 AM
Go get your CDL , you wont regret it ,and then if you are slow you can always drive a truck for extra cash. Buy more truck than you think you will need, pay the money , and tag it at a higher weight than you normally haul , then you have no worries