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Coffeecraver
11-09-2004, 07:50 AM
Products to loosen clay soils
Gypsum, soil penetrants, and sand are often recommended–each for a different reason.

Clay soil absorbs water slowly because the clay particles are tiny. They interlock tightly, with small air spaces, so water can only penetrate as quickly as it can fill those spaces. Compaction of the surface by foot traffic, rainfall, or overhead sprinkling smashes these particles even closer together. If you try to put water on faster than it can penetrate the excess will puddle or run off. Loosening clay soils usually involves breaking the crusted, compacted surface, or amending the soil with products that increase the air spaces. Clay has high cation-exchange capacity, meaning that it readily holds on to and exchanges positive ions.

Gypsum is calcium sulfate, usually sold in powder or granular form. It is a chemical buffer, meaning that it tends to cause the soil pH to move towards neutral from acid or alkaline (we recommend sulfur in this area instead). Advocates say that it "penetrates clay particles and loosens the soil structure," presumably by means of interaction of the calcium and sulfur ions with the clay particles. They caution that it works slowly, requiring annual applications over at least three years.

Soil penetrants are said to work much like detergent, breaking the surface tension, which might slow down water. "Ethoxylated fatty alcohol" is an additive to the Vitamin B product mentioned above. It is hard to imagine that a material sprayed on the surface would make much difference this way.

Neither gypsum nor soil penetrants will have as much effect (if any) on clay as will amending it with larger particles that increase the air spaces. Adding sand is NOT helpful. Although sand particles are larger than clay, they are still just little rocks. In fact, the clay and sand particles interlock to form a structure similar to concrete! But mixing in large amounts of organic material will make a big difference. Composted leaves or manure, or shavings (not fresh), or even fine bark all add air spaces. Even spread out on the surface, these will filter in to the soil by means of weather or worms, continuing to naturally amend the soil as they break down. Organic materials improve the soil’s ability to store and release water and nutrients as well as enhancing penetration.

Compaction of the surface of your lawn’s soil frequently leads to runoff. Here you can break the surface of the soil with a mechanical aerator, and then rake in organic material. In small areas the aeration can be done with a step-on device, while machines for larger lawns can be rented locally. It’s important that the device pulls a plug of soil out, rather than just punching a hole. The popular notion of "aerating" with golf shoes is not effective.

:)

Rtom45
11-09-2004, 01:43 PM
Also see the pesticide and fertilizer heading below, there's a great thread on the pros and cons of gypsum.

blafleur
11-09-2004, 10:09 PM
A product new to this area is expanded shale. It is touted to be the latest greatest (yeah, I've heard that a couple times) miracle worker for heavy clay. It comes alone or mixed with compost. I tried some recently and will monitor how it does. It looks like gravel and is lightweight from the heating process used which, as I understand it, pops it like popcorn.

It has no nutritional value so is supposed to be mixed in with an organic amendment. Anyone else had any knowledge and/or use of this.

I had heard gypsum was not a good idea for alkaline soils, but cant remember why.

Bryan

activelandscaping
11-10-2004, 08:27 PM
I use a mix of crumb rubber, rice hull's and course organics. My preferred method is to first verti-drain the area, then drag the mix into the holes. It's amazing what a difference it makes.

Regards,
Active

AGLA
11-10-2004, 09:40 PM
Gypsum is bad for alkaline soil because it is a lime (no, not the same as limestone). In other words it makes the soil more alkaline.

D Felix
11-10-2004, 11:50 PM
The only shale I've had to deal with in recent memory is on the project we are currently working on.... From dealing with it, I can see how heating it would cause it to pop. Our shale is mostly sandstone, and trust me, it doesn't do ANYTHING for the drainage there! But it's also embedded, not an amendment.:)

Depending on particle size of the expanded shale (again, I haven't seen what you are talking about), I could see it being just like sand and actually decreasing soil porosity. You'd need to add a lot to make it do anything....


Dan

Grassmechanic
11-11-2004, 08:48 AM
Gypsum is bad for alkaline soil because it is a lime (no, not the same as limestone). In other words it makes the soil more alkaline.

Sorry AGLA, but gypsum has NO effect on soil acidity. It wil not change the ph of soil at all.

blafleur
11-11-2004, 10:47 AM
The size of the expanded shale is about 3/8". It looks like gray pea gravel, but picking it up, it is much lighter than any gravel. It is being pushed awfully hard in this area for a new product, I am always skeptical of these claims, because they are rarely by people who wont profit from it. I used it at a residence last month where the customer agreed to let me use it as a testing ground for many things, including flagstone running through the driveway(as per an earlier thread), and this shale. I'll be checking its effectivness. My main concerns are its effects, if any, on plant health, and long term effectiveness at keeping the soil loose.

I used about 3" shale with about 4" compost. The soil is really loose now, but it would be that way with just the compost now, but with only organic matter, by next year it would be back to sticky clay. I always let customers know this, and the importance of keeping mulch on the beds, but most dont.

The best thing I have seen for long term soil friability is attracting and keeping worms. I have one customer that I did the original installation 4 years ago and the bed maintenance season change out since. I used plenty of compost then, and have added a little more with each seasons change out, along with mulching. The year after original installation, the soil was appearing to return to tight clay as the compost began to break down, then the worms started showing up. Now her beds are full of worms, and the soil is like potting soil. Annuals have correspondingly improved as worms have increased. They use no pesticides in the beds, and I use organic fertilizers.

Here is a site with some info on the expanded shale, it seems to be mainly in the Texas area now.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/newsletters/hortupdate/nov03/Expdshale.html

AGLA
11-11-2004, 01:35 PM
Gypsum does act as a lime in sodic soils. The sulfur gets ripped off and frees up the calcium. If I remember correctly. Maybe someone in alkaline soil land will back me up on that. Sodic soils are high in sodium which occur in many of the same prts of the country alkaline soil occurs.

activelandscaping
11-11-2004, 04:33 PM
While Gypsum does not appear to increase or decrease Ph levels, appearently it can raise salt levels in poorly drained soils, like clay.

Here are a couple of good links that have the characteristics of gypsum. It does not appear, from the data I have seen, to provide any type of practical solution. The data that indicates it can reduce sodium levels requires site treatments that are not realistic. As for it's purpose I havn't been able to discern any which is practical........... but I should note that I have no personal experience with this product.

Links:
1)Gypsum Magic (http://www.agviselabs.com/tech_art/gypsum2.php)
2)The Value of Gypsum (http://www.extension.umn.edu/cropenews/2002/02MNCN07.htm)


Regards,
Active

Coffeecraver
11-11-2004, 06:23 PM
Gypsum (calcium sulfate) aids to aleviate high concentrations of salt in soils
and is an excellent product for treating crusting soils. The problem with
gypsum is it is generally applied at the wrong time. Gypsum should be used
only when there is no lime and the calcium levels are below 2,500 parts per
million. 2.Gypsum400-600 pounds per acre
It's been claimed that adding gypsum can reduce compaction, improve soil
tilth, improve water infiltration, raise soil pH, lower soil pH, correct salt
problems and improve the calcium-to-magnesium ratio.
the only real benefit to applying gypsum, other than supplying sulfur if
needed, comes when it is applied to sodium-affected soils.
In cases where a sodium problem exists, gypsum, which is calcium sulfate,
supplies a soluble source of calcium that will displace some of the sodium.
The sodium can then be leached deeper into the soil profile as the soluble
salt sodium sulfate. If soils are sodium-affected, it often takes 1,500-3,000
lbs. of gypsum per acre to effectively remove enough sodium to improve soil
structure. "If soils are not sodium-affected, gypsum will not improve poor
soil structure.

activelandscaping
11-11-2004, 09:19 PM
In a poorly drained soil, where very little water is moved through the soil profile, no salts are moved out of the soil profile. If you apply gypsum on an annual basis, the salt level will continue to increase and yields will decrease due to a higher salt level in the soil (caused by the gypsum).

gypsum salt level (http://www.agviselabs.com/tech_art/gypsum2.php)

Coffeecraver,
The data, drawn from the link above, does not support that conclusion. I am, however, willing to reevaluate my opinion if there is any evidence that contradicts the above.

Regards,
Active

Coffeecraver
11-12-2004, 06:54 AM
(active)


This is the source,compare it to yours maybe I missed something.

http://cornandsoybeandigest.com/news/soybean_gypsum_doesnt_increase/

activelandscaping
11-12-2004, 02:21 PM
This is the source,compare it to yours maybe I missed something.

I don't see any quantitative data, in the link you provided, to back the articles conclusions. While I do not have a soil science degree, I would expect a Redox reaction with CaSO4 to behave in a similar manner with Potassium Chloride ( although the rate of reaction would be slower ). I would also expect UV light to catalyze the reaction between CaSO4 and the salt component of the soil.

To be honest I have yet to see any properly presented data that would lead me to believe that empirical studies have been carried out. This would require 5-10 year studies with a control group and various site conditions and applications over time, with frequent quantitative measurements.
It is my conclusion, therefore, that it is not yet possible to draw a conclusion.;)

Regards,
Active

Coffeecraver
11-12-2004, 06:07 PM
I agree.
I will not waste money on Gypsum until the benifit is proven.