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MMLawn
11-12-2004, 11:47 AM
Ever seen a large stick that you didn't even see that came from a tree that had just been cut down being hit by blades turning at 18,500 come out the shute and impale the fiberglass side of the next door neighbors boat?? I did yesterday! ;) LOL

Thank goodness for insurance!!

Envy Lawn Service
11-12-2004, 12:17 PM
Ouch!!!! I bet that wasn't pretty!

Fantasy Lawns
11-12-2004, 12:26 PM
The damage was greater than the deductable ??

MMLawn
11-12-2004, 12:47 PM
The damage was greater than the deductable ??

Not sure yet. Plus I may tell them or I mya counter file (if it is a high claim) to file against the company that took down the tree for not properly removing the debis. It's a long shot but I'll ask my agent anyway.

Fantasy Lawns
11-12-2004, 01:11 PM
There you go ... that's a good thought

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 02:08 PM
how big of a boat? did it make a hole? what make boat? how new/old?

MMLawn
11-12-2004, 02:26 PM
how big of a boat? did it make a hole? what make boat? how new/old?

It was a newer 18" Mastercraft (I believe) and yeah the stick came out like a bullet and impaled in the back half of the side sticking in the fiberglass all the way through. It was parked right on the back rear side of the driveway about 3 feet from the property line and I was actually making a turn to cut away from it when BAM!

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 02:36 PM
if it's above the waterline, it's probly $1500 repair. insurence is a waste of money, unless someone gets seriously injured. you would have been better off not having ins, and paying out of pocket. when thought of in dollars and cents, insurence is a waste of money. when thought of in terms of "peace of mind", it's worth it

MMLawn
11-12-2004, 02:40 PM
if it's above the waterline, it's probly $1500 repair. insurence is a waste of money, unless someone gets seriously injured. you would have been better off not having ins, and paying out of pocket. when thought of in dollars and cents, insurence is a waste of money. when thought of in terms of "peace of mind", it's worth it

It's going to be real close to the waterline depending I guess on how the boats sits in the water.

YardPro
11-12-2004, 03:41 PM
if it's above the waterline, it's probly $1500 repair. insurence is a waste of money, unless someone gets seriously injured. you would have been better off not having ins, and paying out of pocket. when thought of in dollars and cents, insurence is a waste of money. when thought of in terms of "peace of mind", it's worth it

insurance is never a waste of money.
if yo're a professional you should carry liability insurance. otherwise one mistake and someone could sue you and own all that you've worked for.

you know how some people are sue happy :angry:

tiedeman
11-12-2004, 03:46 PM
lucky that no one was standing in the path of that stick

Green Pastures
11-12-2004, 04:09 PM
In my opinion ANYBODY in this business who does not carry liability insurance and encourages other professionals to follow suit is completely unprofessional.

The management here needs to address this complete lack of professionalism in certain individuals.

Kidding or not I for one am completely sick and tired of comments like these and I have this person on ignore. The only time I see these comments is when somebody "quotes" him.

When is Lawnsite going to do something about the completely unprofessional and downright stupid comments and suggestions on this site?

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 04:36 PM
i simply stated fact. in dollars and cents...ok, lets say this guy carried insurence for 10 yrs at $1000 a year. he's finally gonna use it. if the damage is $1500, and the deductable is $500, he would have been better of (from a monetary standpoint) to not have had the insurence. that be $10,000 in his account (earning interest), and he'd have to dig out $1500 to pay for the damage. he'd have $8500, plus interest left over. insurence is nothing more than a gamble. btw way, i did not encourage anybody to operate without insurence,you are just trying to start trouble. when is somebody gonna do something about people on this site who put words in other peoples mouths and try and start trouble for no reason?

geogunn
11-12-2004, 04:39 PM
if it's above the waterline, it's probly $1500 repair.

BOBBY WEASEL--I told my neighbor the copy techs at KINKOS could fix his boat. he wants to know how much?

GEO

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 04:41 PM
tell you what, come on over here, we'll discuss it

geogunn
11-12-2004, 04:47 PM
tell you what, come on over here, we'll discuss it

is it worth you buying the beer for after the talk?

GEO :waving:

MMLawn
11-12-2004, 04:48 PM
Wow, it looks like Geo is stalking BobbyG as everywhere Bobby post theres Geo not far behind. What's up with that. ;)

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 04:51 PM
is it worth you buying the beer for after the talk?

GEO :waving:
i don't know, will your doctor allow you to drink beer while you're IN THE HOSPITAL?

geogunn
11-12-2004, 04:53 PM
MM--replying to BOBBY WEASEL's threads doesn't sound like stalking to me but I don't care if it does to you.

but if it is stalking, BOBBY WEASEL has alot of stalkers!!!

GEO

geogunn
11-12-2004, 04:56 PM
i don't know, will your doctor allow you to drink beer while you're IN THE HOSPITAL?

SURE! :drinkup: I'll be drinking beer. and I'll even bring YOU some when I come to visit you! LOL!

GEO :waving:

MMLawn
11-12-2004, 05:03 PM
MM--replying to BOBBY WEASEL's threads doesn't sound like stalking to me but I don't care if it does to you.but if it is stalking, BOBBY WEASEL has alot of stalkers!!!GEO


Yeah, but you only reply to Bobby's post and no one elses. That looks like stalking to me :p

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 05:26 PM
my attorney has been notified, if anything happens to me, geo will be held responsible. why don't u leave me alone? don't you have anything better to do, like harrass innocent motorists, beef up a police report, plant a bloody glove..

geogunn
11-12-2004, 05:53 PM
BOBBY WEASEL-- you are ever the drama queen. I was serious about needing an estimate for my neighbor.

MMLAWN--as for only responding to BOBBY WEASEL's threads.......I am certain I have responded to someone elses thread on here but I just can't remember when.........

GEO :dizzy:

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 05:57 PM
liar! your goal here is to stalk me, therefor causing me emotional distress(further). i'm not a boat repairman, why would you ask me for information on such issues? you are a stalker. my attorney has been notified. watch your step stalker

geogunn
11-12-2004, 06:09 PM
i'm not a boat repairman, why would you ask me for information on such issues?

I saw it here:

if it's above the waterline, it's probly $1500 repair.

it gave me the impression that you KINKO's people were multi-talented.

silly me!

GEO :waving:

YardPro
11-12-2004, 06:13 PM
boy look what i started.

isn't bobby the guy who sues all those people??

here's the the reason for insurance you dumb clod, it's injuring a person, not property dammage.

there is only so much dammage that you can do to property with a mower. a broken window, or BOAT (who would have ever guessed). what would have happened had that stick hit a person. that could have easialy been a $10K+ problem.

geo is right though.

i am new here but have seen nothing but bobby attacking and retreating when confronted. he talks alot about suing all these people then says there is no reason for insurance. Does he not realize that there are other prople out there like him???

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 06:19 PM
oh no, another retart who thinks that if people didn't sue for what is RIGHTFULLY THIERS, then insurence rates would be dirt cheap. uh huh. keep dreaming

geogunn
11-12-2004, 06:20 PM
geo is right though.

thank you sir. you are wise beyond your years!

GEO :angel:

Cheesedawg1
11-12-2004, 06:28 PM
oh no, another retart who thinks that if people didn't sue for what is RIGHTFULLY THIERS, then insurence rates would be dirt cheap. uh huh. keep dreaming



oh man.... lol

YardPro
11-12-2004, 06:30 PM
bobby what exactly is a "retart"?

bobby your response only shows that you are not good at making connections. My statement had nothing to do with insurance rates or costs. it was refering to the mantality of sue happy people like you. and those prople being the reason that you need insurance.

you are the kind of guy to sue someone for every cent you could get if some action of thiers caused you expense, injury, etc.

you think it is worthwhile to take a day out of your life to recoup $35.00.

if you had any decent business going on you would not have the time to spend the time/ energy on such trivial matters. you would be out making money. If i loose 1/2 a day i loose a few hundred bucks, why would i forfit $200.00 to recoup $35.00.

guess you have more free time during business hours than i do.

******

there are countless other scenerio's that emphasize ( not using words too big am I?) the need for insurance, but i will not waste my tiime trying to educate you.

bobbygedd
11-12-2004, 06:45 PM
just think, if pee ons like you, didn't let people rip you off, i wouldn't have to take them to court! i didn't invent this business, i walked into it after the "precident" had already been set. that precident? simple, don't pay the lawnboy, he won't do anything about it. now i have to try and correct the mistakes of people like you, generations of them, scores of them. u should bow down and kiss my feet! you wont stand up for yourself, and somebody has to do it! and furthermore, why shouldn't i sue you when YOUR NEGLIGENCE caused me an injury? the law says i'm entitled to compensation for injuries resulting from negligence. i didn't make the laws, but i have to live with them. if you don't like the laws here, then move to russia! you been in business 14 yrs, and half a day ONLY COSTS YOU a couple hundred dollars? HA HA HA HA. get a job

YardPro
11-13-2004, 07:50 AM
bobby
you have just made my point for me
it's guys like you that create the need for insurance.
as far as the people ripping you off.
in all my years of business i can count on one havd the people who did not pay me. you must be somewhat unreputable in your business practices or have poor client screening skills if you are getting burned as much as you say.

you also neglected to address the issue of how you can justify the loss of 1/2 a day's wages to collect some of the small amounts you have listed.???
I NEVER said prople should not collect the money owed. But as businesses grow there will always be a percentage of non collection. take some business classes. as the company grows it becomes MORE COSTLY to pursue the small debts.

that's where I and others here are. It costs us significantly more to try and collect a $35.00 debt ( for me almost ten times as much).
If you think it's smart business to forefit a few hundred dollars to collect $35.00, mabey that's why your businedd had not flourished.
i am assuming it has not flourished becuase you have so much time to spend in coourt for a measily $35.00
the other problem i see is that you are always blaming others . you say that others have cuased the no payment situation, and you are the victom. That is such an ignorant statement. you need to take control of your situation.

here's some help for you.

when talking to a perspective client:

Have you had lawn service before?
Why are you changing companies?
Who was here before me?

contact the other LCO and find out thier side.

this will eliminate most of your problems.

here's another thing

I'll bet you're the kind of guy that will use 1/2-3/4 of a product and return it for a FULL refund. you'll justify your cheapskate actiond by saying " i didn't make the 100% money back guarantee, I am just working within it" blah blah blah

bobbygedd
11-13-2004, 08:06 AM
you are lying!!! period. i see guys here ALL THE TIME saying they have problems with deadbeats. i see guys in my area ALL THE TIME who have problems with deadbeats. it's part of doing business, you wear many hats. when it comes to collections, you either wear the hat with the tall pointy ears (jackass hat) and let them walk, or you wear my hat, and get your money. for $35 i will hound you day and night till i get it. if you are elderly, or a pregnant female, i will pursue the matter legally. i DO NOT return products half used, that's plain stupid. you need insurence, because you are allowing yourself to be scammed, period. people sue, because insurence companies are dishonest. if i get hurt on your timeclock, and require compensation for my injury, the insurence company can just pay and cost themselves ALOT LESS MONEY, or they can get doctors, attorneys involved and now the cost of this claim is astronomical! your insurence fees are high because INSURENCE COMPANIES ARE DISHONEST! if they paid a $5,000 claim, instead of spending $25,000 to fight it, your fees may be lower. furthermore, and once again, it is the veterans in this business, like you, who "paved the way", set the standards. and quite frankly you did a real crappy job. now i have to try and pave the way for the future of the lawn industry. it's a crummy job, but somebody has to do it

bobbygedd
11-13-2004, 08:23 AM
and another thing, i don't know how people act in mayberry, but here, if i asked those questions:QUESTION: " have to ever had lawn service before?" ANSWER:"yes". QUESTION: "how cum you're changing companies?" ANSWER:" none of your business." QUESTION:" who did you use before?" ANSWER:" i used your mother! what's with all the questions? get the hell off my property."

DSIM
11-13-2004, 09:32 AM
The more posts I read from Bobbygedd, the more I realize I like this guy.

Here's to ya, Bobby :drinkup:

wagner17
11-13-2004, 11:55 AM
Bringing back the focus to the topic at hand, my summary for this thread is two-fold:

1) You definitely need insurance - no one in this business should be without it. It is your option to pay it out of pocket or through the insurance company.

2) Although I don't always agree with his tactics and the way he goes about his business, Bobby is right - customers look for any way that they can to take advantage of you - you have every right to the money that you earned. Would I go to court over $35? NO. But I simply hound them (politely, yet sternly) and stop cutting the lawn until I get payment.

DSIM
11-13-2004, 12:03 PM
If you need insurance, then get it. But dont make a big deal about it if others feel like they dont need it.
If you have employees, then imo you most likely need the protection that insurance offers.
If you dont have employees, then as long as your only mowing and not cutting down a tree that may crash into a house or car then you probably are wasting your money on liability insurance.

Why is there such a big issue about this?? It seems that those who pay insurance get offended easily by finding out that others dont have it.

wagner17
11-13-2004, 12:07 PM
I personally am not offended if people choose not to have insurance, that is my prerogative. I feel that it makes me feel a little secure in case something should unfortunately happen. I also think that it makes the customers feel a little more comfortable as well. I have had a couple ask me if I am insured. I don't hlod anything against those who do not have insurance, it is my opinion that it is a good idea though.

DSIM
11-13-2004, 12:17 PM
I personally am not offended if people choose not to have insurance, that is my prerogative. I feel that it makes me feel a little secure in case something should unfortunately happen. I also think that it makes the customers feel a little more comfortable as well. I have had a couple ask me if I am insured. I don't hlod anything against those who do not have insurance, it is my opinion that it is a good idea though.

I respect that opinion. Insurance is a means of paying for something in case you dont have the means yourself to pay for it.
If you are careful then you can avoid massive accidental costs I would think in most cases.
If you have employees then there's risk involved.

That being the case, then someone who has enough money in the bank does not need insurance. So then to say that its totally unprofessional (like some have stated) to not have insurance is to convey that there is no way for such a business to pay for an accident. That just goes without knowing.

Smithers
11-13-2004, 05:35 PM
Mike,

i did not know that mastercraft makes 18" boats. did the guy buy it at Toyr 'R' Us?

:cool2:

YardPro
11-13-2004, 06:02 PM
it's spelled insurance. you spelled it the same way twice so i assume it's not a typo
i guess you are not getting the point.
if you're a jackleg lawn boy then you don't need it, but if you are a professional with a business it sets you in a whole different liability category.
you get in a cab and they wreck, you expect them to have insurance,
you hire a roofer and you expect him to have insurance in case he really messed something up. We are the same way.
a $300,000.00 liability policy is only $600.00/year. If you can't afford that either lay off the budweiser or charge more money.
If you are a professional act like it.
I don't really care if you have any insurance or not. guys like that gust make it easier for me to get more money for the work I do. I just tell the customer to make sure to get certificates of insurance from perspective bidders.
that will knock you out of consideration.

as far as the chasing money down. You still don't get it. If you have to spend a day in court to collect $35.00, you gust LOST a few hundred in missed productivity. so instead of the customer costing you $35.00 they just cost you $250.00. Seems to me that then they really screw you.

unless you have extra time during the week where you have nothing to do. We don't. I loose $65.00 ( MY rate ) for every hour i am in court. I am not about to spend 4 hours in court to recoup $35.00.
heck, I can just spend 5 less minutes a day B.S.ing with my employees for a few days and easially make that up.

if you're getting screwed that often you should get better clients.
leave the unscrupulous ones for the scrubs to worry with

DSIM
11-13-2004, 06:15 PM
yardpro,
could you define jackleg lawnboy ?

I have been in business for almost 8 yrs and never had insurance. I'm on my second house now and almost all of my equipment is paid for.

I have uniforms, truck & trailer logo graphics, and I seldom lose customers.

Its my perrogative that I dont have insurance.

YardPro
11-13-2004, 06:20 PM
oh forgot one,
you guys know that most auto policies don't cover liability from stuff falling out of your trailer.
if you have a personal policy and are using the truck while working and something falls out or off of your trailer and dammages something, hope you have insurance.

5 years ago in the next county a trailer came loose, broke saftey chains while on a bridge (the poor guy forgot to put the latch down. anyhow the trailer swerver into oncoming traffic and hit a car. the driver swerved to the right to try and miss the trailer. the car and trailer both hit the side of the bridge.

car and trailer were totaled, driver had some significant injuries, nothing life threatning, but needed medical attention.

drier sues the business. the auto policy would have nothing to do with the case. the general liability had to do the payout.
over $120,000.00.

you got that kind of cash lying around??

DSIM
11-13-2004, 06:26 PM
Now your talking about commercial auto insurance. Yes you have to have that. Personal ins. wont cover you if your pulling a trailer.

YardPro
11-13-2004, 08:11 PM
alot of commercial auto polocies won't cover a trailer.

here' an excerpt from the irrigation and green industry website:


by Tracy Powell

As our society becomes more litigious, lawsuits that might never have been filed years ago are becoming more pervasive.

Some years ago, an upscale planned community was built in a valley, close to the beaches. Almost ten years after construction, the homeowners sued the landscape contractor, among others. The suit claimed that the irrigation system was not properly installed and was throwing water on the buildings, thereby causing the wood siding and overheads to rot.

Forced to defend this action, the insurance companies involved sent experts to do a site inspection. Although it sounds relatively simple, being a sleuth takes time. One can't leave any stone unturned.

On inspection, the experts found that the wood siding that was rotting was on the second story of the houses and close to the eaves. The lower half of the buildings appeared to be fine. How could it be that the spray heads could shoot so high?

The inspectors examined the irrigation system and found that no water was shooting up as high as the second story. Upon further examination, they determined that, in their opinion, the irrigation was properly installed and that the water was not hitting any part of the houses.

Being so close to the ocean, the experts finally realized that every morning a dense fog came over that area, Since these homes were built in a valley, the fog lingered longer. This dense fog created droplets of water that clung to the siding and overheads. After ten years of moisture accumulation it was determined that this is what caused the rotting. The suit was dropped.

You're a landscape contractor with adequate liability insurance covering your back end just in case one of those "what ifs" becomes an "as if." This means your business interests are covered from financial reprobation in the case of accidental property damage during a job, right? Think again. It’s a little known fact, and an unwelcome trend for insurers and landscape contractors, that’s sweeping through the country’s courts — homeowners and their associations can discover a perceived construction defect, look back 10 years, and sue practically any contractor, along with his insurance companies, who has worked on any of the property’s projects in that time frame. This is due in part to a 1993 California Supreme Court ruling known as the Montrose Decision.


“The case started a trend,” says Donitz. “That trend went over to what’s called construction defects. Some lawyers then went out and started suing construction companies for defects. But they didn’t just sue the contractor, they sued everyone on the job, all the subs, including the landscape contractors.”

Construction defects have a 10-year statute of limitations. So when new condos or tracts of homes are built, the HOAs (Home Owners Association) have 10 years to file a lawsuit. There are attorneys who specialize in these types of cases and they contact HOAs during the eighth and ninth year after the project has been completed. They look for such things as water incursion in the buildings, any damage to the grading, damage to the structures, etc.

The suit would be filed against the developer or general contractor, et al. Then all of the subcontractors would be pulled into the suit. It would be easier to settle for $5,000 than go to court. The defense costs could be in excess of $40,000.
Being dragged into a lawsuit, from out of the blue, plays into the suing litigants’ strategy, as confusion leads to a desperate plea to settle.

“Now you have a lawsuit on your hands. You don’t even know why, but you have a lawsuit,” adds Donitz. “And you have to defend that lawsuit. Not only is the insurance company that a landscaper had at the time responsible, but all the insurance companies from that time to the present.”

Golden Oak does not sell insurance, but is responsible for finding insurance programs that best meet the needs of CLCA members. Golden Oak president Nelson Colvin, who is also a licensed contractor, has seen landscape-specific lawsuits swell in recent years, following the Montrose Decision, and most suits are totally unbased.
“I just went through a bunch of lawsuits, and it took me three hours to read the reports,” says Colvin. “There were two legitimate construction defect claims and about 20 that really weren’t. In one such claim, they’re suing because they say that the drainage didn’t work and the grades were changed. They do a site inspection, and find that the individual homeowner hired someone else to put in a patio, which changes the drainage, or puts in sidewalks which affects the drainage. But they keep you in the lawsuit, and it’s cheaper to offer a settlement than to defend the case. And they know this.”

Contractors caught in the middle are indeed trapped, but it’s not only the suing attorneys who are subjecting landscapers to this legal flogging. As with the Montrose Decision in 1993, all other parties are brought to the table to foot the legal bills, taking into account all the insurance companies a contractor had on board during and since the alleged defective project.

J
“The average payout is $5,000, but what this amounts to is paying the lawyers to defend it,” informs Donitz. “What this means is that the average payout is $1,600 to $2,000, even if there’s no damage, just to get out of it. But if you multiply that, times, (in our case) 1500 contractors, then you see the impact.


The math is relatively simple, yet devious. One common, clarifying example Donitz uses is a lawsuit against a general contractor, let’s call him Company A. Attorneys go to homeowners’ associations and say, “We can make money for you; tell us what’s wrong with your project.”

Attorneys normally approach the associations in the eighth or ninth year after a project has been completed. At this time, the appearance of cracks in sidewalks or driveways are fairly common, and these are shown to the lawyers. The evidence is pounced upon and declared to be construction defects. It’s then that, with list in hand of all the projects that Company A has on record, they sue all these projects on behalf of the homeowners’ associations.

But simply settling to rid oneself of a burdensome suit isn’t the whole of the matter. Dishing out substantially higher expenses for defending the case is what has socked the insurance companies’ books.

“Generally what happens, because these suits get dragged out, is that you may settle for $5,000 after four or five years of depositions and such — you also pay the attorneys,” explains Colvin. “We’ve had some cases where we’ve paid out less than $10,000 in liability and $40,000 or $50,000 in defense costs.”

Oakwood Insurance Company, LTD, is a Bermuda-based reinsurance company, owned by Golden Oak Cooperative Corporation and individual members of CLCA. Oakwood reinsures a portion of the liability and auto insurance for members of CLCA.

“Right now, if you read the Wall Street Journal, insurance is getting to be more expensive,” says Donitz. “This is one of the reasons for that. Another thing that’s happened is that a lot of insurance companies don’t want to insure in California.”
The suing trend isn’t limited to California. Colvin suggests that because it’s a State’s Supreme Court decision, and because many larger companies operate in more than one state, future lawsuits are imminent across the country. In fact, filings have already occurred in Nevada.

Negating Negligence
While the surface situation looks bleak for landscape contractors, there are ways to ready your ramparts for a possible legal barrage. The closest thing to sue-proofing your business is keeping good records.

“We, as an industry, don’t do a good job of documentation,” says Colvin. “What really needs to be done should begin on-site. When contractors are working on a project, they are generally working off a plan by a landscape architect or developer. When changes are made, they should be marked on your (the contractor’s) plan. Then have the owner, or the developer, or the landscape architect sign the plan indicating that the change was authorized. Then they can’t use that as evidence against you. As a matter of fact, it turns around as evidence for the individual.”
Good record keeping also involves using and tracking change orders consistently. Instead of moving a project along as quickly as possible (at the developer’s beckoning) and easily overlooking a completed change order, make the documentation a priority. It will pay off in the future.

As all contractors are eager to build a backlog, many are too quick to jump at a job, and a certificate of insurance is a common, unseen trap laid for future demise.
“Oftentimes, a developer or general contractor will make the subcontractor provide a certificate of insurance naming them as additional insured, and as part of the additional insured it says you’ll defend the general or developer in any lawsuit,” reveals Colvin. “That’s another thing that the contractor has to take a look at and not jump into. Although it may only cost $25 for a certificate of insurance, they’re so anxious for the job and to build their backlog, they don’t think about the long term ramifications of that certificate.”

DSIM
11-13-2004, 08:16 PM
alot of commercial auto polocies won't cover a trailer.

Thats why you buy a policy that will. I have Allstate.

tx_angler
11-13-2004, 09:25 PM
It was a newer 18" Mastercraft (I believe) and yeah the stick came out like a bullet and impaled in the back half of the side sticking in the fiberglass all the way through. It was parked right on the back rear side of the driveway about 3 feet from the property line and I was actually making a turn to cut away from it when BAM!


I've been a boater for well over 30 years and I'd have to see a very detailed picture of this to buy into this story. Not saying it couldn't happen but Mastercraft is a quality boat and I'd have to see the evidence before I'd pay the claim.