Price this commercial site retaining wall

[brentsawyer]

With the following info only in your town 6mi from your house, let me know what you might bid this job at. I'll probably do most of the work myself and can lay the base course in about 2 days. Generally I charge my labor out @$500/day

Retaining wall is 112' long, staight, buff colored mesa block. Each block costs $4 and caps are $3.40. Total bill from concrete supplier for pins, block, adhesive will be $2094 with tax including delivery which is free and on 30 days credit. The wall is along the back property line and all dirt will be excavated around it since it is in construction phase. All I have to do is dig out 2'x112' trench, fill, lay block and caps and backfill with proper amt. of gravel behind wall, add drainage tile. Our quarries deliver for about $45 for a tri-ax + $8.50 ton. I will have to rent mini backhoe, compactor, concrete saw for very few cuts on caps and maybe bobcat. Thanks, I need to get this in Monday 11/15 to the GC.

[activelandscaping]

Well........
How high is the wall?
112' X 2' X 4" ? I would use 2 guy's and 2 shovles + 2 wheelbarows (unless your in clay or compacted stone soil ). They should have it done before you could pick up and pay for a mini-ex, or would this take away playtime. :)
If your going to rent somthing for the wall make it a laser level, will save you a lot more time than the mini-ex. For the cuts I would buy a decent worm gear saw and a 7" dry diamond blade, would be different if you had radius cuts ect....

Regards,
Active

[brentsawyer]

3-4' tall, if 4', geogrid will have to be installed, cost is $2.21 LF., I will use a mini-ex since it needs to be dug out at least to a 16" depth. Of course, the first row will be buried, but with a mini-ex I should be able to dig out the trench in about 2-3 hours vs. days with 2 guys and some shovels. There is a major time rush on the project so the asphault can go down before the plants shut down for the winter. I have a laser level already and will use to check depth throughout trench.

[activelandscaping]

3-4' tall, if 4', geogrid will have to be installed, cost is $2.21 LF., I will use a mini-ex since it needs to be dug out at least to a 16" depth. Of course, the first row will be buried, but with a mini-ex I should be able to dig out the trench in about 2-3 hours vs. days with 2 guys and some shovels.

Well, a mini-ex certainly can come in handy, not sure about your time line with the hand trench though. I don't understand how you came up with 16" deep, but I'll take your word for it. I don't believe the specs. call for the first layer to be entrenched but it won't do any harm to have it that way.
I would, however, recommend that you use at least 1 layer of geogrid for any SRW over 2 feet, couple hundred bucks isn't much compared to the benefit.

On a last minute bid I would go about 16-18K, depending on site conditions.

Regards,
Active

[brentsawyer]

I gave them a bid last Monday for the wall to be constructed first bit of December for $14-16K over the phone site unseen so it was not def. and the owner was not wanting to spend that much and that price was right in line with another bid. I can fit it in before Thanksgiving but I feel that it is going to have be a good price for it on my part but again I do have the time for it this week and they will be getting alot of the topsoil out of the way for me and I will be able to place the pallets right up to where I'm working. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get $14-16 or even 18K but it ain't gonna happen. Best I know to do is figure what it will cost me to do it in the mose efficient way, oh yeah it has rained about 10" here the past 6 weeks so the ground is real heavy and bid it normally with a little more thrown in on top to make up for the emergency since it looks like without the wall they may not have a parking lot this winter. I figure that this will take about 3 days with 2 other guys laying in behind me though the more I think about it.

[activelandscaping]

it looks like without the wall they may not have a parking lot this winter.

Will the wall need to support traffic loads? This will be true if the paving surface comes to within about 8-10' of a 4' SRW.

Regards,
Active

[activelandscaping]

One more thing I meant to add. In my area any public parking area must have a perimeter zone that meets city slope requirements, if slope requirements are not met then there must be a " traffic barrier ". If this is the case in your area then the wall would need to be engineered to support a specified impact load on the barrier footing, or piering installed that would load independently in the case of impact.

Regards,
Active

[JKOOPERS]

wow u bid that for $35 a square foot ? sounds like to me that most of your profit would be ate up on rentals .

[activelandscaping]

wow u bid that for $35 a square foot ? sounds like to me that most of your profit would be ate up on rentals .

1) Case 580L or Mini-ex: $800/wk
2) Materials/supplies 3K
3) Labor/overhead & insurance ( based on 5 day start to finish ) $ 2500

At a price of 16K seems like there would be a couple of bucks left over.

Regards,
Active

[JKOOPERS]

what i am say i wouldnt be bidding on a job to do if i dont have aleast half the tools. i can see renting a bobcat or a track hoe but not even having a saw or stuff like that . imo if you dont have the tools to properly run efficent why did the job. that would be like me bidding on a job to install guard rails and not have the proper tools . just my opinion

[activelandscaping]

what i am say i wouldnt be bidding on a job to do if i dont have aleast half the tools. i can see renting a bobcat or a track hoe but not even having a saw or stuff like that . imo if you dont have the tools to properly run efficent why did the job. that would be like me bidding on a job to install guard rails and not have the proper tools . just my opinion

Agreed, for the most part anyway. The thing is, if it wern't for the fact that " special considerations " might come into play, it would be an ideal job to get your feet wet on. Straight wall with few cut's and close to home, wish my first job's were like that.

Regards,
Active

[brentsawyer]

Half day backhoe or may rent backhoe attachment for Bobcat to combine one rental but may not benefit me much. Two days bobcat, half day saw, half day, maybe full day compactor. Dosen't seem to bad to me. I'll take some pictures tomorrow morning and post them. I may not have half the machinery, but considering half day saw rental is $75, Skid is $120/day and compactor is $50/day, tool rental will be relatively small % to the total job hopefully <8%. I could build in the total rental bill into the job since it is so short term on top of what it would be regularly.

[D Felix]

I think you need to refigure your rentals...

You should be able to get the trench dug in a half-day. However, if you need to cut a bench to install the grid, you'd better refigure it at a full day. I posted an Excel spreadsheet a while back for aiding in calculating the amount of time for excavation, you might want to find it and stick in some numbers.

I'd price the saw as a full day, maybe even 2 full days. Of course, you have a straight run, so you probably won't need the saw that much. I'd still figure at least a full day. And you might as well BUY the diamond blade; around here they charge $3 per THOUSANDTH that is used off of the diamond edge. Doesn't take long to get the $125 for the blade that way. And a full day for a 14" handheld cut off saw runs ~$50 for just the saw....

The compactor is where you are REALLY falling short. You will need it the entire project; base compaction, plus compacting the soil over the grid. I'd recommend a jumping jack for the soil compaction, it packs it in tighter.

If you've never built a wall before, or at least a wall of larger size like this one, you need to understand that laying the base is what will take the longest. We usually figure about 30' of base per day per person. But, since it is one wall, at most you will only have 2 people setting base if you start in the middle and work out. That 30' is probalby slow now that we've started using some sand to help with the leveling, but it's still a PITA.

I'm not familiar with Mesa block, but I'm guessing the base at ~24-30 manhours for just the block, and around 70-80 hours for the remainder of the wall. But that's a big guess, I don't have any of our recent estimates to look at to see how they were estimated. I've got a feeling the numbers for the remainder of the wall may be low...

HTH.


Dan

[mrusk]

I would of bid 10,000. I would bring 1 labor with me, and we would finsh the job in two days. I would went a backhoe load of some kind. Then i could dig it out and use it to backfill the well.
I assume the blocks are 16in long. That means there are 84 blocks in the first course. I could run lay that many block out myself in 12 hours. After the first course, if the pallets are close you could do the rest of the courses, including geogrid, backfilling, and compacting in 4hrs or less.

Walls are easy to make money on, especially stright ones. We once did a 560 sq ft versa lock wall in 2 days for 14k. We were at 3500 for materials and rentals. Its just to bad i was working for someone else on that job, and that it wasn't mine!

matt

[D Felix]

Even with two people, I don't think it is possible to lay 3.5' of wall hieght, plus grid, plus compaction, plus drainage aggregate in just 4 hours. The only way that MIGHT be possible is if you just dumped 18-24" of soil on top of the grid and compacted once. To do it the right way, you need to bring the soil up in 3-4" lifts, compacting after each lift. On a wall that is 112' long, with grid extending a minimum of 3' behind the wall, you are looking at a minimum of 20-30 minutes with one compactor to get one lift compacted thouroughly.

If you can lay 112' of base in 12 hours, you must not be as picky as we are about levelness! I've seen the results of lower standards when it comes to setting base, and they are NOT pretty.....


Dan

[GreenMonster]

As usual, I agree with everything Dan says.

BASICALLY speaking, not knowing ALL the factors involved, to me, 10K seems low, 18K seems high.

Brent, you said 14-16K? I like that number.

Dan is right about the compactor. To do the wall properly, you and that compactor are gonna get to know each other pretty well over the course of a few days :)

:rolleyes: He's right about excavation too. A lot more dirt to dig out behind the wall for grid. 4-5' feet min. That's a lot of soil to deal with too.

[activelandscaping]

brentsawyer,

I am still a little curious as to how close to your wall the paving is going?
I own almost all the equipment I use, equipment over 15 ton I generally rent or lease. I was thinking a bobcat 325 mini-ex with a compaction attachment might work for you, of course you would need to rent a plate compactor/jumping jack for the base compaction . Week rental on most earth moving equiptment isn't much more than 2 day rental rates.
DFelix is right about moving plates through soil, especially wet soil. If you decide to go with a jumping jack your arms had better be in good shape though.:)

mrusk,
I would of bid 10,000. I would bring 1 labor with me, and we would finsh the job in two days.
Probably the same number of days the wall would last.


Regards,
Active

[brentsawyer]

I'm going to get my tail over there and take some pics and post them for you right now. Can't thank you enough though. The paving surface is on the lower side of the wall.

[MidAtlantic]

Depending on amount of site work, corners and bends we usually charge $15-30 per face foot with #57 clean stone back fill.

[GreenMonster]

mrusk,

Probably the same number of days the wall would last.


Regards,
Active

ROTFLMAO

:laugh:

Active, you weren't as nice as me, but I was thinking the same thing.

[MidAtlantic]

Oh keep in mind there will also be 1-2 courses of modular block below ground level. So make sure you add the additional face footage to your calculations.

[brentsawyer]

pics and 10 letters

[brentsawyer]

Not the best photos b/c of sun position. Basically wall will be at least 5' in front of the fences. The GC will removing most of the dirt. The wall is being required by the city and they are wanting trees to go on top of the wall. Not sure if it is possible thought with geogrid. We have a real dumb a## for planning that originally thought this would be a great spot for some Red Oaks to be planted right under the power lines along with the rest of the site 33 Red Oaks originally planned for in all.

[brentsawyer]

I did talk with the engineer at the Mesa and said that Mesa required no grid <3'. Here with our soils this wall will have first course buried.

PS The asphault will butt up against the base. This is why they are having to delay the parking lot. Don't know why owner is holding up construction over a $14K wall and risking losing a completed site until spring. Thank about the lost interest and leasing $$. Could really hurt alot involved real bad if you ask me. Seems to me I would pay to get it done real fast. Basically plants close week after Thanksgiving.

[activelandscaping]

Hmmm...........

I see utility drop downs but no flags? That could add a lot of hand digging to your job, up to having to hand dig the whole thing. Don't ever take ANYONE'S word that " there are no lines in there ", remember it's your ass. I could tell you a story about a vibratory plow and a entire subdivision with no power, melting water softeners and exploding TV's, but I won't.
From the pic's it appears that the runoff collection point for the surrounding area is the same point where you would begin your wall? I would use 1 layer of geo-grid and install a sheet of ( perf-geoweb 4" cell hight ) just below the wall hight grade between the poured wall and my SRW. I always say " better to wear a belt and suspenders than get caught with your pant's down ".
From where my business stands now I would't touch this wall for under 18K, if I were just starting out I wouldn't touch this job for under 15K.

Based on the site pics and what you have told me this guy isn't waiting till spring for anything. There is the possibility that he is BSing you about the wall being the holdup, it may be something else and he is using the time to beat you up on the price. If you low-ball this and run into problems it'll be beans and rice for dinner ( for about the next 3 months ), I use ketchup with a little Tabasco. :)

GM,
Don't you mean 2 up & 2 down?:D :D

Best of luck,
Active

[brentsawyer]

He didn't say a word about the paving emergency, has kept it quiet. My best friends father owns the GC's office space and is also a GC and while eating lunch yesterday, he informed me of this mess that is approaching him with the parking lot. as you can see the gravel is there and the curving out front is done. While leaving, I saw a perfect mini-ex sitting in the lot. I could possibly get them to dig out the trench to spec to avoid that mess. The super said that he would build it, just dosen't have the time on this project.

I'll restate this just in case of confusion. The wall is to be 112' x 3'. Your pricing puts that close to $50/sf.

[YardPro]

i am wondering about the 16" deep also????
should only need to be about half as deep

[activelandscaping]

I'll restate this just in case of confusion. The wall is to be 112' x 3'. Your pricing puts that close to $50/sf.

Does this include the embedded section? If the total block hight is 3', you said you were embedding ( roughly ) the first foot or so, then I would probably scrap the grid and knock off 2K and no more.
I do tend to bid about 20% higher than I normally would on rush job's. I do this because if there are problems then I have to throw money at the job to get it done in time.

I presume you saw the 3 transformers sitting on the pole with the drop-down. Part of the problem is that most of the work you do will be on the easement, not the owners property, and there could be gas, electrical, cable, phone, etc....... running through your work area. It's pretty important to know where these things run. :)

Best of luck,
Active

[brentsawyer]

18"x8" is the Mesa block. First course completely buried, then gravel. Roughly 12" depth. The wall will sit just off the easement, it is a 5' ease and that begins about 6" on the other side of the fence. I will be doing work in the eased area but wall will sit outside ease. Sorry, actual block height will be 3'8"-4'4" Therefore grid will be necessary, will have to check with engineer.

[MidAtlantic]

Now after seeing the photos I would put the job up to $40+ per face foot. Not knowing where that drop down line goes you will have a lot of hand digging. Trust me its worth being safe and not exposing you to expensive liabilities. I did a club house project for a new golf resort community up in DE and for some reason nobody could get their stories right about the utilities lines. MS utility only marks up the utility companies lines but not the developers lines. The developer and GC told us there was nothing in our construction area (5 tennis courts). I should never have never listened to them. One of my crews were auguring one of the last fence post footers with our skid-steer and boom!!!! He hit a live 900 volt power main that the developer put in from the transformer to the club house that was not suppose to be there. MS utility was out the week before marking lines and didn't mark that one...About the same time within days the concrete guys doing the sidewalk hit a gas line with one of their form spikes. It was only 12" bellow ground level....I don't know about you but I always bury my electrical and main water lines 30-36" deep.

We had to replace $9,000.00 of #1 copper line in two 3" conduits at our expense. After battling MS utility, developer and the electrician who installed the lines we turned it over to our insurance company. Thank goodness in this one case the line was just inches outside of the perimeter of our general work area so the insurance company reimbursed ups 2 years later since they considered it an unavoidable accident. If it was inside the fence line and construction area then we would of had to eat the loss since it would be considered negligence.

So its always best to play it safe and charge accordingly. In that pic you have some large lines under your work area, hopefully MS utility marks them.

Plus in some areas when you go over 2-3' in height you have to have engineered drawings and they want compaction testing performed every so many feet of depth in the backfill of the wall. That is one of the reasons we use #57 stones for backfill.

When estimating I like to take the worst case scenario when I do my estimating. This way you will make a profit if something goes wrong or get rewarded with more profits if everything goes well.

[activelandscaping]

What MidAtlantic said. In commercial areas they often run the IT underground as well, if you knock out someones shipping and IT comm. they're going to be a little curious as to who did it.

MidAtlantic,
It was only 12" bellow ground level....I don't know about you but I always bury my electrical and main water lines 30-36" deep.

The power line we hit in the spring was 12" deep, as opposed to the 5' depth it was at in the fall before someone took a Dozer and knocked 48" off the berm it was running through. After arbitration our end was 300K, if it wern't for insurance I would probably be wearing a paper hat and asking someone if they'd like fry's with that.

Regards,
Active

[MidAtlantic]

This is something I should add..

I was calling this guy about this real nice almost brand new f650 that he was selling. I asked him why he was selling this truck. He told me he has a couple other if i am interested. He said he was getting out of the business cause MS utility was putting him out of business. He hit a main fiber-optic line on a job. Thats all it takes to put someone out of business....I don't know what happened exactly or whos fault it is but when it comes to putting food on your table don't take chances. Take plenty of photos and be real careful around known utilities and do all the research about unknown utilities as possible.

[mrusk]

Guys i can easily lay 112' of base block in 12 hours. If the block is 18'' long. Thats 75 block. That gives me 9.6 minutes to lay each block. If it takes you more then 9.6 minutes to get a block level you should not be building anything. Come on, if you take an extra 15 minutes to prepare the base, you can level up a block in a minute or two with a good rubber mallet.

Thats all i have to say.

Matt

[MidAtlantic]

Guys i can easily lay 112' of base block in 12 hours. If the block is 18'' long. Thats 75 block. That gives me 9.6 minutes to lay each block. If it takes you more then 9.6 minutes to get a block level you should not be building anything. Come on, if you take an extra 15 minutes to prepare the base, you can level up a block in a minute or two with a good rubber mallet.

Thats all i have to say.

Matt


Mrusk,

What would you do a job like this (per face foot) for including excavation, pins, geo, drain pipes, backfill and caps?

[mrusk]

IF* Underground wires were not a factor i would big 10,000 for the job. Thats ruffly 25 face foot. brentsawyer said materials are around 2100 + the base material and backfill material. Lets say you rent a minx for 1 day and a skid steer for 2 days. Even if you rent a saw and compactor for both days you will STILL be under 3500 total. So you make 6500 on this job.

Now IF underground wires were a proablem and i had to had dig it, I'd price it the same. The money i saved by not renting a mini x would be spent on two grunts (8-10 and hour) to did it out. They should be able to dig it in a day.

This wall is stright. You won't be wasting time cutting caps. This wall will go quick considering the only excavating you need to do is for the trench for the base.

Here is my final thoughts on this job. If you have to hand dig. I'd have two laborers there the first day digging it. I'd wouldn't even be there. Then me and another guy could do the whole wall in two days no proablem.

If you don't have to worry about wires. I'd rent a minx for 1 day and the skid steer for two. Me and 1 guy could finish in two days. As i dig with the minx the other guy would be bring in the base material with the skid steer.

Matt

[DGI]

After arbitration our end was 300K

:dizzy:

Detroit area?

[activelandscaping]

Detroit area?

Yep. Made the news at the time, not very good PR either.

Regards,
Active

[ALarsh]

I think you need to refigure your rentals...

You should be able to get the trench dug in a half-day. However, if you need to cut a bench to install the grid, you'd better refigure it at a full day. I posted an Excel spreadsheet a while back for aiding in calculating the amount of time for excavation, you might want to find it and stick in some numbers.

I'd price the saw as a full day, maybe even 2 full days. Of course, you have a straight run, so you probably won't need the saw that much. I'd still figure at least a full day. And you might as well BUY the diamond blade; around here they charge $3 per THOUSANDTH that is used off of the diamond edge. Doesn't take long to get the $125 for the blade that way. And a full day for a 14" handheld cut off saw runs ~$50 for just the saw....

The compactor is where you are REALLY falling short. You will need it the entire project; base compaction, plus compacting the soil over the grid. I'd recommend a jumping jack for the soil compaction, it packs it in tighter.

If you've never built a wall before, or at least a wall of larger size like this one, you need to understand that laying the base is what will take the longest. We usually figure about 30' of base per day per person. But, since it is one wall, at most you will only have 2 people setting base if you start in the middle and work out. That 30' is probalby slow now that we've started using some sand to help with the leveling, but it's still a PITA.

I'm not familiar with Mesa block, but I'm guessing the base at ~24-30 manhours for just the block, and around 70-80 hours for the remainder of the wall. But that's a big guess, I don't have any of our recent estimates to look at to see how they were estimated. I've got a feeling the numbers for the remainder of the wall may be low...

HTH.


Dan

I don't know if you have bid on the wall yet because I didn't read the whole post, but here is the spread sheet Dan was talking about: http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=82492

[GreenMonster]

Guys i can easily lay 112' of base block in 12 hours. If the block is 18'' long. Thats 75 block. That gives me 9.6 minutes to lay each block. If it takes you more then 9.6 minutes to get a block level you should not be building anything. Come on, if you take an extra 15 minutes to prepare the base, you can level up a block in a minute or two with a good rubber mallet.

Thats all i have to say.

Matt

I don't think it's your base numbers that are so ridiculous, but the rest of the wall, stacked, backfilled, with grid, 4 hours?!?!

If you can do it that fast -- properly -- I'll eat the wall.

[activelandscaping]

I don't think it's your base numbers that are so ridiculous, but the rest of the wall, stacked, backfilled, with grid, 4 hours?!?!

If you can do it that fast -- properly -- I'll eat the wall.

GM,
Ditto that, with the following caveat:

I have long suspected that one of the components of SRW blocks must be Kryptonite, as my super-powers have been useless against them. Should this change, then I will be able to build a 4 day wall in a day and a half.

brentsawyer,
What DFelix said is on the money. The base prep and compaction are absolutely critical. Much like the foundation for a house their the hardest things to fix and if done improperly everything above turns to crap.

Regards,
Active

[brentsawyer]

To me base prep is 2/3 of the wall, 1/3 proper backfill and drainage. A wall like this should be easily set with string line running in the front of the ditch and in the rear to check levelness, which can all be done at once. When that is done, the first layer should go down relatively and all that is needed is a little minor tapping into place. So say that I can talk the GC into digging the trench out and sell this to him that he can save alot of money with a little time, let him take the risk, whats a good price now.

[YardPro]

112 foot wall in a day????
here we have almost pure sand for a base, so the digging goes quickly. but stacking the wall, gluing the top caps, backfilling etc????

tell you what. If you're that fast i have some work to sub out to you. you can come down to the coast, do the job in a day and hang out on the beach and watch the waves roll in for a few days.

[activelandscaping]

To me base prep is 2/3 of the wall, 1/3 proper backfill and drainage. A wall like this should be easily set with string line running in the front of the ditch and in the rear to check levelness, which can all be done at once. When that is done, the first layer should go down relatively and all that is needed is a little minor tapping into place. So say that I can talk the GC into digging the trench out and sell this to him that he can save alot of money with a little time, let him take the risk, whats a good price now.

If he is willing to do all the digging, including the 4' step needed for the web, then 12K. This means you would just need a bobcat ( fork attachments would sure come in handy ) and a compaction unit for the week. Personally I would just rent it for the week and have it on site, probably about $ 100 difference from the 2 day price. You could also try and line up some work where the BC would come in handy for the remainder of the week rental period.

BTW,
Your friend should be able to tell you about any special insurance required by " State or local authority ". Also, never sign a " waiver of lien " before you are Paid in Full.

Best of luck,
Active

[MidAtlantic]

YARDPRO-----

What part of OBX are you located on. Our sport surfacing division works down there all the time. I love it down there...Plus the fishing is great :drinkup: ......We usually start our clay court season in Feb down in the Wilmington NC area and work our way up DE.

[D Felix]

Someone mentioned something about compaction testing... The wall we are working on right now, even with a jumping jack and a plate compactor, I doubt we are getting more than 80-85% Medium Proctor. Doesn't matter how many times we go over it, or how high/low the lift is, the soil just *doesn't* pack well right now. Partly because it's got some moisture in it, partly because of the soil type (clay/sandy clay shale). It's because of that lack of compaction that we will be filling a large area behind the wall with the aggregate road base. Even that stuff can be too wet too, but at least we know it's packed tight.

BTW, if you take the heel of your boot, and try to push it into your compacted fill, and it doesn't dent the fill- you've got it compacted enough. If it leaves more than a slight depression, you need it tighter.... Just one of many things I've picked up on this job from the retired bridge builder we've got helping us!:)

Oh, another FWIW, straight walls are a LOT more of a PITA than curved walls... At least if you are the slightest bit picky about the finished product....


Dan