Tree Farmer wants to expand into other aspects

[Staffordnurseries]

I listed this post under new business and did not get much activity. Perhaps I can get more opinions here. I have a christmas tree farm with about 10,000 trees from 2 feet to 7 feet high. To do this I have picked up a line of equipment that can do dual duty. Since like many people here I am doing this part time business as an insurance policy against my manufacturing job is going to go over seas (quality manager at an auto components plant). I think I need to get into the live market with an expanded line of plantings while I am working but still gaining knowledge in this business. So here are my questions:

Beyond my spruces and firs (dont grow pine) what plantings should I be getting in the ground. Oaks, maples perhaps ornamentals?

How about subcontracting? I have the following line of equipment, and am willing to add any reasonable additions that might be suggested. Perhaps bigger finish mowers on the tractors. I am not at the point where I can commit large amouts of time (yet) but occasional work would be great.

I have land to commit, and the following equipment. Any other tree farmers make this transition?

What other work should the following equipment go after?

Main Tractors:
Kubota 4310 with loader and forks
Ford Jubilee (tired nedds rebuild)
International Backhoe (old and heavy, not very transportable)
Power King 14 horse with three point

Tree related:
Lomar Johnson tree planter
Dirt works 30" tree spade (brand new)
Many trimmers including BD 84" backpack.
Chainsaws, pole saws.
Hand and ATV mounted sprayers

Tillage:
60 " tiller 3 point
Troybuilt garden tiller
normal old style plows, disk drags

Mowing:
2003 Dixie chopper (here)
1986 Dixie chopper (cream puff bought to do my moms lawn)
Ford brush hog
DR two foot walk behind brush hog
4 foot 10 hp Brush Hog brand for behind ATV
6 hp string trimmer and changable head string trimmer

Trucks and Plows:
93 ford F-350 with western plow( alternate with chev below)
88 chev K2500 with fisher plow
71 C-50 with 16 foot grain box and hoist (running, doing body work)
81 C-30 cab and chassis to be combined with 71 c-30 dump truck (big project)

[activelandscaping]

Beyond my spruces and firs (dont grow pine) what plantings should I be getting in the ground. Oaks, maples perhaps ornamentals?

Well..........if I were going to plant anything it would probably be Acer p. ( especially the dissectum var. ). It always seems like the prices they are getting for these are way high, considering they are fairly easy to propagate and relatively pest free.

One thing I would do is get " The Manual of Woody Landscape Plants " by Dirr.
A must have.

Regards,
Active

[shadybz]

Our top sellers include: Red sunset maple, Autumn Blaze Maple, October Glory Maple, Flowering pear(especially cleveland select), Prarie fire Crab, just to name a few.

[JRSlawn]

the landscape manual by dirr is a must a got a copy for close to 100 its a great book the auther does a great job of spelling these things out very clearly. I would plant alot of plant that are popular in your area. Plant whatever you have room for. Even if you plant box elder there is bound to be someone who is looking for that type of weed.

[jd boy]

although extremely popular, I think jap maples would be a poor choice for you. There is a reason they are so expensive... It takes forever to produce a saleable tree.

If I were you I would think about possibly setting aside a small area to begin some container production. This way you will get a much faster turn around. By growing things you know you will be able to market easy (ornmanental grasses, perennials, etc) you will begin a quick production cycle.

Then in whatever area you have left field grow some of the common back bone landscape plants. ie boxwood, taxus, common quick growing trees in your area.

Horticultural production can be tricky because in most cases you are talking about years before your merchandise is ready for market. That is the beauty of containter production. You can have a saleable perennial crop start to finish in 6 months. This generates some income while your field stock gets going!

[activelandscaping]

although extremely popular, I think jap maples would be a poor choice for you. There is a reason they are so expensive... It takes forever to produce a salable tree.

Not sure I agree with your reasons, the stock that goes for around $ 125 to 150 are generally 3 yr plants. Part of the reason is they require special pruning and must be staked. The growth rate in the first five years is fast, then it slows progressively. Another reason is that they don't tolerate pesticide apps. very well, tends to defoliate them. This can be a problem for large farms where aerial apps. or large boom equip. is the preferred method of application.

I do agree, however, that you should not put all your eggs in one basket. ( as stated by jd boy :) ) Herbaceous perennials are usually a good seller and can be sold in a variety of ways ( landscapers, roadside, flyer's ), may come in handy if you need to generate some quick cash.

Before you take any advice on plant material you will need to do a little homework. I would have the soil tested, say 2 spots/acre if you can afford it, for the following:

1) composition
2) ph & fertility........N,P,K & micro-nutrients
3) drainage characteristics.......IE, planting Taxus in wet area's would be disastrous ( so would planting Clethra a. in dry areas )


You will also need to come up with a business plan and do a little market research, this will help you focus on your objective and help you produce plant material that is desirable in your area. The bank will want to see a plan as well, should you decide to take out a loan. I had my CPA help me with my business plan, but I believe there are many on-line sites that have good advice and examples of proper business plan formulation.

Before you run out and do any purchasing find a good accountant, ideally you will want someone who is a Lawyer and a CPA. A person with these qualifications generally deals in contract law & taxes. They will be able to help with with contracts and, since they go to tax court, will probably be more adept at knowing which loopholes you can jump through. You will have many deductions available to you as a business and a CPA can get you setup to take these ( as well as explaining the advantages/disadvantages of incorporation ), there is no way a layman can understand business tax law (especially as it pertains to agriculture).

HTH

Regards,
Active

[jd boy]

Active-

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Jap Maples are most effectively produced in climactic conditions that don't experience drastic high or low temps. This is why the majority of jap maples are produced on the west coast, in washington and california. There are also many nurseries that have specialized in producing them.

Although if he did grow them he probably could do alright, there are many more plants that could be grown more efficiently in Pa. I guarantee he could get a better gross profit margin from plants he could produce faster!

[Rollacosta]

what you need my friend is a crystal ball as whats in vogue this year isn't usually in ,in 5 years time..the tree's i would grow are the old favorites ,silver birch ,oaks various,robinia psuedoacasia 'frisia' ,why not take a sneak at what your intended compertition are growing all the best

[activelandscaping]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
jd boy,

I believe that we could both make valid arguments both for and against various plant materials which would take us well into April, without having resolved a thing. Therefore, I will not belabor the point. :)

Staffordnurseries,

One quick word of caution, with regards to plant material. Make sure you figure in pesticide apps. for whatever you plant. Nursery's and Farms-(for salable stock) must maintain a zero tolerance policy, with regards to disease and insects.

Regards,
Active

[Staffordnurseries]

For all of you that posted, thank you for your time to give a semi-greenhorn the benefit of your advice. Here are the following points I intend to chase or have started in a small way:

1. Plant popular stand bys- you need some basic trees people recognize
2. Try some high value exotics such as Japanese maple- but I will only try a few since there appears to be some climate risk here.
3. Establish container plants- started some in my former garden area, close to the water since these need more regular care
4. Zero tolerance on infections- already know that from the trees- when you have thousands of trees of the same variety you learn this quick- just in the last stages of kicking out an infection of white pine weevils from a stand of spruces- much time was spent on the ATV and sprayer this past april and again this april. Trimming out and recovering from their damage is a challenge- they got me for 12 trees that will need careful pruning to recover their shape. I believe their are better chemicals available than the across the counter sprays and oils I used...will need to find out how much pain is required in NY for an applicators lic.

I believe if I stick to good shaping (therefore dense foilage), good disease control and now learn how to get the best root ball on the bottom sales will come. I do have the benefit of not needing the income immediately, but the container comment is sinking in

Does anyone know of a good method to container and ball off of a 30" tree spade? Further are there pre steps such as going around at the drip line with a shovel to turn the roots back. I think the back bone of your sales with plants is get your quality so high that you can put real guarentee on them.

[activelandscaping]

Should have everything you need here. I would use this link to find what you need and then shop around for pricing.

Link: Wire Baskets (http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4789397DD325250-Wire-Baskets.aspx)

Best of luck,
Active

[activelandscaping]

Staffordnurseries,

I found this link while doing some homework: Getting Started in the Nursery Business (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/nursery/430-050/430-050.html)

I hope this helps and wish you the best of luck in your new endeavor.

Regards,
Active

[D Felix]

You NEVER want to "turn the roots back" on a tree. That can and does lead to girdling roots, which will eventually kill the tree. Some of my common complaints about trees we buy wholesale:

1. Root flare is buried
2. Root flare is buried
3. Improper pruning in crown
4. Root flare is buried
5. Circling or girdling roots (yes, I've cut out roots already growing into the trunk BEFORE planting)
6. Root flare is buried
7. Containerized trees (leads to an overly dense root ball that is difficult to stabilize when planted, not to mention it's usually a mass of circling roots)
8. Buried root flare

Gee, can you tell what my biggest complaint is?:D

Start off by planting the trees at the right depth. And instead of using a cultivator or disk to get rid of the weeds, use Roundup.

Root pruning is generally a good idea, if you have the time. I'd try to do that in the early spring before fall digging, and if you are spring digging, do it in the very early fall. I could be wrong on the timing, but that's what makes sense to me. I've never worked at a commercial grower......

HTH. You might want to check into pot-in-pot production for shrubs. Saves a lot of hassles and some watering, not to mention ground cover shrubs like junipers will not have that annoying droop to the branches when they are planted!


Dan

[Staffordnurseries]

This last post is exactly what I want, Dan is the type of customer I would be trying to please in my business. So here is my strategy to please this type of customer.

1. Root flare-If I understand correctly the root flair is at the base of the tree where the roots turn out and spread. Because I plant these small and do not change the relationship between the top surface of the soil and the tree I should not violate this number one issue Dan raises. I need to investigate this further to insure I understand this.

2. Improperly trimmed crown- I am hoping that the same shape I try to achieve for my Christmas tree customers is what people want in their yards. Dense pyramid shaped trees. Now one difference I am starting to perceive is that I may want to begin shaping earlier in their growth so that I have dense small trees to transplant.

3. Roots- Now here is the key difference between being a Christmas tree grower and a nurseryman and is at the heart of my questions. Right now as long as I started the tree properly and I see a good growth rate I leave the roots alone and really have not had to learn about the other half of the tree below ground. But this is the key to a good transplant traveling from my field to the customer's yard. Now if the tree is in a container, it is obvious that the root structure is contained and the key there is to keep them from circling and bunching in the container.

Dans post shows there is a difference between root pruning which is what I am trying to achieve and root girdling which is the risk I take as I try to prune. My understanding was that by going around the tree before you transplant with a shovel at the drip line you are pruning the roots. It appears that I need to investigate this further to insure I am pruning and not girdling.

As always I appreciate the help from all of you as I try to learn and develop another aspect to my farm. Thanks again

[akerr]

hello, you are off to a good start. i have a few suggestions. i started my own nursery which is on it's third year. i learned from my employer who has his own nursery that supplements his installation company. he worked at a large nursery in ohio that hand dug everything. what i do is order seedling from a great nursery in Oregon called Heritage Seedlings. they have great choice of trees and shrubs. i put most of my seedlings into pots for a season or two this helps with watering and establishing the tree. after the trees are established i plant them into field. it is easier to leave the shrubs in pots, as long as you move them up as they out grow the pots.

choice of tree and maintenance is the most important thing.
you mentioned pruning the trees. you do not want to prune ornamental trees the way you prune christmas trees, in fact you do not want to prune any tree like a christmas tree. this is one of the largest problems in the nursery industry, improper pruning. large nursery don't have the time or the man power to prune each tree properly, so they tend to shear them. if you intend to target high quality market talk to some people in your area and learn how to properly prune each tree. root pruning is a great for you and the tree this will help when you go to transplant the tree. the fall or spring works for root pruning. if you are planting these trees into the ground you should not have a problem with girdling. this usually occurs when a tree/shrub is in a pot/container to long, the roots have no where to go so the start to wrap around themselves. if you are planting ornamental shade trees you will want to consider fertilizing. this is a pretty easy process, use organic granular fertilizer, tree tone, plant tone is basically 99% organic, it has 1% of some type of chemical but that's ok. use a digging fork and go around the tree at the drip line making a series of hole. then spread the fertilizer over your drip line holes, cover that with mulch and you are good to go. the make a hopper type granular feeder that will speed the application up.
good luck, hopefully this helps

[Critical Care]

I worked at a nursery for several years where repotting plants into larger containers was an ongoing operation. People were hired to do this full time, along with fertilization and other plant production chores. Even though I don’t work at this nursery any more, I tend to go back there because I trust that whatever plant I get there isn’t going to be root bound. I hate it when I get plants that need a jackhammer to get the roots loose. No excuse for that! Just like no excuse in allowing twine on B&B to remain on so long as to girdle a plant.

Another very important issue of keeping plants in containers is to “heal” them in for the winter so that they don’t freeze in cold climates. We typically would spread tons of horse “compost” and sawdust around every containerized plant at the nursery. You don’t want those containers open to the air, and the cold.

Probably the best way to root prune trees is over a period of a couple of years. The first year take a sharp spade and cut the roots on the north and south side, the next year finish with the east and west sides. Lots of new filamentous roots should develop – which you want. Third year, containerize and sell. Best way, but not the only way.

Oh… and speaking of roots. You may want to check into using mychorriza that could surely help your operation when containerizing plants.

[activelandscaping]

Root flare is buried

D Felix,

To be honest I see this much more in potted stock than B&B, to the point where I will no longer purchase Pieris j. in pots. Is this the case where you are? I complained like crazy, but they always gave me a look like I had just sprung a 3rd eyeball. I got a letter from my main supplier letting me know my total purchase's were down and asking if they could do anything to help? I shot them a letter back saying if they wanted to help they should have listened to me 3 months ago, before I switched suppliers. I am still waiting to hear back.

Regards,
Active

[akerr]

Another way to root prune your trees is to move them as much as possible. actually dig your trees when they are young, the more you move them the easy the hand dig will be when they become large marketable trees.
this is a long process if you have hundreds of tree but well worth the time.
good luck

[Elmos]

Dirr's material is good to have but in regard to nusery operations an author such as Whitcomb or McDonald will be more in line with details of such an operation. Check this out :
http://www.umassgreeninfo.org/fact_sheets/plant_culture/nursery_references.htm

[Elmos]

Japanese Maples may be relatively slow but it is hard to beat them as far as variety. They are great trees. I'm hooked. Here are some images of some of the Japanese Maple cultivars that I have been producing. These were grafted in the summer of 2002. the photos were made in April 2003.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Elmore/Nursery/Assortedjaponicums2.jpg"width=750>

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Elmore/Nursery/DancingPeacocksetc2.jpg"width=750>

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Elmore/Nursery/EdgewoodsGoldeninforeground2.jpg"width=750>

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Elmore/Nursery/Higasayama2.jpg"width=750>

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Elmore/Nursery/goodassortment2.jpg"width=750>

[activelandscaping]

I would also have these books on hand:

(1) Diseases of Trees and Shrubs. 1987. W. Sinclair, H.H. Lyon and W.T. Johnson. Cornell University Press, Ithaca, NY. (AN) ...... One of the few that provides ID characteristics @ 30X magnification......

(2) Insects that Feed on Trees and Shrubs. 2nd ed. 1991. W.T. Johnson and H.H. Lyon. Cornell University Press, Ithaca, NY. (AN) ............. Great ID book.............

I would say that since you appear to have a " Tree Farm " as well as a nursery. I would use Dirr's cultural guidelines for the tree farm aspect and the aforementioned nursery reference material for potted/B&B stock.

It has been my experience that nursery's are just that, they take care of plant material that is stressed from movement (and/or) insufficient feeder root systems. The culture and practice would necessarily be different when dealing with established stock, raised from seedlings or bare root.

Best of luck,
Active

[activelandscaping]

Elmos,

Thanks for the info. The Acer p.'s look fantastic. :)
I especially like the one 4th pic down, 'Roseo-marginata'?

Best of luck,
Active

[Elmos]

Elmos,

Thanks for the info. The Acer p.'s look fantastic. :)
I especially like the one 4th pic down, 'Roseo-marginata'?

Best of luck,
Active
I prefer the Japanese name of 'Higasa yama' and a lot of those small trees are Acer japonicum. A mix of palmatum and japonicum. All grafted cultivars. Designed and produced in Alabama.

[D Felix]

you are planting these trees into the ground you should not have a problem with girdling. this usually occurs when a tree/shrub is in a pot/container to long, the roots have no where to go so the start to wrap around themselves.
I think the main reason I see circling roots in B&B stock is because of laziness. My guess is that the nursery will auger a hole for each tree, then start popping the trees into the holes regardless of the root system. When the laborers start to "plant" invariably there is probably a root or two that is too long to fit in the hole, so instead of digging a bigger hole (preferred) or cutting the root to length (less prefferred, but still better than:), they pull the root around to conform to the boundaries of the hole. That starts the circling process. The only way to end it once the tree is somewhat established is to cut the offending root.

As for seeing buried root flares in potted stuff, I see it in everything, container grown, B&B, field potted, everything. Potted trees are the worst, since you have to deal with many more fibrous roots than you otherwise would in a B&B tree. Shrubs I don't worry too much about, as long as it's not root bound when it gets put in the hole, I don't care too much. Shrubs are not as finicky as trees, and they generally aren't in it for as long of a haul as trees are....


Dan