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View Full Version : For you Ford 4R100, E4OD owners


UNISCAPER
11-26-2004, 08:51 PM
We recently lost yet another 4R100 transmission. And, have lost numerous E4OD in a miriad of trucks. Here are some things the shop foreman of our dealership told me that you need to know.

First, changing oil on regular interval, is critical, as is a large after market cooler on these transmissions. Of the many problems that occur in these trannies, there is one thing that will kill your transmission faster than anything going.

Because of Ford's lack of forsight, they did not design either of these two transmissions to circulate fluid when in reverse gear. So, the oil sits in the transmission cooking until you shift into drive.

In many scenarios, in our area, you get off the highway pulling your load, in our case a 257B Caterpillar, or Wells cargo enclosed trailer, or even a load of dirt in the F-450. You get to where you are going, and you have to back up. Much of the time, you are backing up a hill to park the trailer. You tranny oil is already hot from working the truck, and you heat it up further by backing up. This is the exact scenario that occured when our 02 F-450 lost it's tranny, with 29,000 miles. It has been the second time this happened. In an ideal world, he said if we could let the truck sit for a few minutes so the fluid would cool before backing, it would add thousands of miles to the life of our transmission.

Why in the world Ford chose to design a work truck with a pump that does not circulate in reverse gear is beyond me, but learning the way that causes the least stress on the tranny is what we will need to know in order to keep your truck in service.

I asked him then why snow plowers can continue as they do all night long. Think about it...you aren't really unde rload when backing up with your plow, and, since the temperature is usually below 30°, the transmission temp would run close to normal.

At present, this truck will probably be sold and we will replace it with a Mack Granite, 33,000GVW that has an 8 speed and a jake brake. that truck will be equipped with a roll off dump body. I firmly believe that by operating a truck just one size over what you really need, many problems will be eliminated.

The part I cannot accept, is that an F-450 is obviously a truck used for heavier work than a pick up. Putting a transmission like this in it was clearly a bad choice, and one that we as owners will get stuck with bearing the burden of. This transmission is not fit to run in a Bronco let alone a 10,400 lb truck.

Eric 1
11-26-2004, 09:30 PM
And that why i don't have a ford. I have to get to work and back. And i can drive all day then back up a hill and not fry the tranny.Absurd! :alien:

That is just plain stupid. :dizzy:

Gravel Rat
11-26-2004, 10:21 PM
I wouldn't have a automatic transmission in a heavier truck than a 1/2 ton all my trucks are manuals I had one automatic F-350 it was my first ever auto and my last auto. All my trucks I have and had were 4spds and 5spds I bought the 350 with the auto because I liked the truck itself the C-6 crapped out pizzed me off changed the truck to a 4spd.

Never ever will I buy a automatic again god gave us two legs and two arms so use the left leg to push the clutch and the right arm to move the stick. If your good at shifting you don't need to use the clutch. I float the gears in my F-450 most of the time.

Smalltimer1
11-26-2004, 11:36 PM
And that why i don't have a ford. I have to get to work and back. And i can drive all day then back up a hill and not fry the tranny.Absurd! :alien:

That is just plain stupid. :dizzy:

Those were also the first generation of electronic transmissions. Growing pains must be felt somewhere....and the E40D/4R100 was the weak link.

At least they're not like Dodge and their full line of 3 or 4 consecutive bad trannies.

Ford has finally got us a decent tranny, the Torqshift. It is a much better unit than any of its predecessors.

The 700R4 and 4L60E were not very impressive in my book, those get fried everytime I turn around on a couple trucks around here. The Allison is better attempt, but it suffers from solenoid issues which seem to be fairly common around here. Passed a dead D-Max/Allison the other day (dead tranny)--offered my assistance, but he was too proud to be pulled in by an old Ford, which happens to be an E40D.

kc2006
11-26-2004, 11:38 PM
True that you should have a manual trans in a work truck, but for those who dont like to drive it all the time whatever.

I've read the sonnex valve and spring kit helps add life to your e40d also, i'm going to be putting one in my truck since i can't buck for a different truck yet.

UNISCAPER
11-27-2004, 01:04 AM
Smalltimer:

Was going to pass this along. A friend of mine in Michigan lost his 02 F-350 automatic. As he went to the dealer to sign the papers authorizing the repair, 2- 05 Torqueshifts came in on the flatbed. Out plowing. I'm very curious to see how/what caused them to go, so when he gets his truck back, maybe he will have some answers. WE have a thread going in www.Groundtradesxchange.com. Always good to get insight from other places.

Smalltimer1
11-27-2004, 11:41 AM
How often did he (and you) change the fluid and filter? Its supposed to be every 30,000 miles on normal schedule, and 20,000 for severe service, if I remember correctly. It must be a regional thing, because I haven't seen any dead TS's around here, if anything operator error--poor PM. Mostly dead Dodges and Allisons here. The local Chev. dealer has a few crates of new Allisons around back, my church is right beside the dealer, they're within plain view. The Dodge dealer my mother got her car from has a whole section of their shop dedicated to replacing transmissions, and there's always a Cummins truck sitting in those bays. The local Ford dealer has a few rearends laying around along with a couple blown engines, but only one or 2 Ranger/Explorer transmissions.

Eric 1
11-27-2004, 04:35 PM
Those were also the first generation of electronic transmissions. Growing pains must be felt somewhere....and the E40D/4R100 was the weak link.

At least they're not like Dodge and their full line of 3 or 4 consecutive bad trannies.

Ford has finally got us a decent tranny, the Torqshift. It is a much better unit than any of its predecessors.

The 700R4 and 4L60E were not very impressive in my book, those get fried everytime I turn around on a couple trucks around here. The Allison is better attempt, but it suffers from solenoid issues which seem to be fairly common around here. Passed a dead D-Max/Allison the other day (dead tranny)--offered my assistance, but he was too proud to be pulled in by an old Ford, which happens to be an E40D.

1. Maybe, but that is lack of common sense.

2. Vary true.

3. Those are 1/2 ton tranies, most commonly over worked and under cared for. Our 4l60E Had 246000 on it before it blew.

I suggest you further research the Alison, I will to. I have never heard that before. Sure you have a lemon here and there but the Alison is a proven trans that coms in many other trucks aside from chevy. I.E .fire trucks, moving trucks, delivery trucks, even my friends brand new International D440 has a Alision in it. Surely if they were junk they would not come in that many heavy duty trucks.

Maybe chevy used a cheap version? that still does not mean all Allison's are junk.

I agree with Gravel Rat. I love my manual trans. :cool2:

UNISCAPER
11-27-2004, 05:02 PM
We change transmission oil every 15,000 miles, which, is recommended in rough service, or pulling the loads through the mountains that we do.

I just had the tranny serviced, electronic, and pressure checked around 1000 miles before it blew. I know the way my friends runs his shop, and his trucks are on a pretty rigorous maintenance program as well. As I reseach these new transmissions further, 90% of most transmission issues, no matter whose brand you have, starts with the electronics. The computer tells the truck to fart, and instead, it belches. Next thing you know, the tranny is shifting weird and many people can't feel the difference so they keep driving. The result is a tranny that pukes, to the tone of $2,500.00 plus, (excluding warrantee claims) depending on what exact model you have. Pretty unacceptable in my book.

One thing that there is no way I would do after talking to the Ford and Chevy mechanics, is install a chip. Both manufacturers are rejecting claims because of the added Hp and torque the chip helps produce. At least, in the dealerships I spoke with. If they show that the chip caused the electrical malfunctions, they boot the claims. And, the new computers are logging information that shows if someone ever installed a chip, then removed it so a service tech won't see it.

The issue with these E4OD's and 4R100's not being able to pump fluid when in reverse seems just plain stupid, especially in ares like we live in where it is hilly. There has to be a way to add a pump in line when you put the truck in reverse. It won't be my problem too much longer. I'm selling the F-450 and replacing it with a Mack.

Eric 1
11-27-2004, 05:15 PM
. As I reseach these new transmissions further, 90% of most transmission issues, no matter whose brand you have, starts with the electronics. The computer tells the truck to fart, and instead, it belches. Next thing you know, the tranny is shifting weird and many people can't feel the difference so they keep driving. The result is a tranny that pukes, to the tone of $2,500.00 plus, (excluding warrantee claims) depending on what exact model you have. Pretty unacceptable in my book.

.


LOL. I love it.

Smalltimer1
11-27-2004, 10:01 PM
1. Maybe, but that is lack of common sense.

Funny it took GM 30 years to make the 350 quit grinding cams flat.

3. Those are 1/2 ton tranies, most commonly over worked and under cared for.

The same can be said for the Ford ones.

I suggest you further research the Alison, I will to. I have never heard that before. Sure you have a lemon here and there but the Alison is a proven trans that coms in many other trucks aside from chevy. I.E .fire trucks, moving trucks, delivery trucks, even my friends brand new International D440 has a Alision in it.

When you've seen 5 Allisons go bad in the same truck in 130,000 miles, it says something. No further research needed.

A real auto is an Eaton-Fuller.

Lucky1
11-28-2004, 08:30 AM
If you go to WWW.Pickuptruck.com. you will find the problems far more prevaliant in the auto transmissions in GM PRODUCTS than Ford. I often get on the Ford truck owners site and see none of these problems.

DUSTYCEDAR
11-28-2004, 08:49 AM
i had a 93 450 and had 1 trans at 30k then 1 at 25 minutes after they repaired the first 1 blew up on the way home then the next 1 lasted about 25 k and lost a seal so 4 trans in less that 60k
so i bought a 6 speed and it has been better but at 30 k it needed a sending unit on the clutch which was nice u jump out in traffic with a dead throtel
i see a pattern with most trucks at 30k something is going to die lol

UNISCAPER
11-28-2004, 10:26 AM
What is interesting about sites, vs talking to actual mechanics and owners while they fuel at the pumps, or while they are at the dunes in Glamis, is they are more willing to disclose information regarding thier truck, negative or positive. Internet sites are great, but, only a small cross section of the population use them. You get to physically see trucks towed from this park that have broken. While I see many Fords, and a few GM trucks, I still hold an open mind to all brands. I can only compare to what we own, and what has given troubles in our company.

In our personal experiences, Ford ranks last in reliability in the transmission department. I can only hope they get it right with thier new one, and, frankly, I'm not hearing that, except with a small few of Ford truck lovers, much the same as GM truck lovers about thier product.

I have no truck preference, and with the old options that were weighed, (pre '99 trucks) I would rather replace brake pads than transmissions. With the new options, GM fixed thier disgusting brakes, and added the best transmission in the industry. We got well over 180,000 out of the L80E in our K2500, which, had close to 800,000 miles when it was auctioned off in Mexico.
Even the Ford shop foreman at North County Ford said it was too early to tell if Fords new technology will win out over the Allison. What is clearly winning out is Ford customer loyalty, which only tells me someone loves thier brand, and is not willing to disclose anything bad even if it were bad. He was pretty insightfull. We agreed when he said clearly, computers and electronics should never have been integrated into automatic transmissions. Of all the transmission repairs, 90% are electrical, and a transmission is not an electical part----At least it should not be one. Take the tech out of the equation and you have a C-6, Turbo 400 and 727 Torqueflight, all were bulletproof.

I'm done with this thread, because I am selling the F-450. We will be Fordless, due to lack of dependability. If any of our GM trucks have transmission isues, I will be the first to post about that experience.

In the mean time, if anyone knows someone who wants an 02 F-450 with a brand new tranny, still under factory warrantee, Call me. the truck has 30K, 19.5" Ford/Alcoa Aluminum wheels, brand new tires, air, cruise, tilt, (too many uppified items to list in the cab. Equipment wise, it has dual side underbody tool boxes, a roll a tarp on a 12' dump body with with removable sides. The truck is Ford white in color. Asking price is 36K. New with what you have on this truck you are sitting at 57K.

At 9:00 Monday I'm putting $10,000.00 down on a new Mack Granite single axle 33,000GVW and mounting a roll off dump box on it.

Eric 1
11-28-2004, 06:06 PM
Funny it took GM 30 years to make the 350 quit grinding cams flat.



The same can be said for the Ford ones.



When you've seen 5 Allisons go bad in the same truck in 130,000 miles, it says something. No further research needed.

A real auto is an Eaton-Fuller.


1. Because they were flat tappet cams, not roller. Just the same as the fords in those years. They still lasted a long time. But it is true that Ford had a roller cam about 2 years before chevy.

2. We are talking about an F450 here, ok, HEAVY DUTY not a small 1500.

3. You are the first time i have heard that. That truck obviously has an electrical issue. They are just temporarily fixing it with a new trans. It most likely has a glitch in the ecm that is screwing up the trans.

I not saying Fords are bad truck's, cause they aren't, I am justs saying that this is a sever issue that should be fixed asap. I know lots of people with good f150's.

Eric 1
11-28-2004, 06:09 PM
What is interesting about sites, vs talking to actual mechanics and owners while they fuel at the pumps, or while they are at the dunes in Glamis, is they are more willing to disclose information regarding thier truck, negative or positive. Internet sites are great, but, only a small cross section of the population use them. You get to physically see trucks towed from this park that have broken. While I see many Fords, and a few GM trucks, I still hold an open mind to all brands. I can only compare to what we own, and what has given troubles in our company.

In our personal experiences, Ford ranks last in reliability in the transmission department. I can only hope they get it right with thier new one, and, frankly, I'm not hearing that, except with a small few of Ford truck lovers, much the same as GM truck lovers about thier product.

I have no truck preference, and with the old options that were weighed, (pre '99 trucks) I would rather replace brake pads than transmissions. With the new options, GM fixed thier disgusting brakes, and added the best transmission in the industry. We got well over 180,000 out of the L80E in our K2500, which, had close to 800,000 miles when it was auctioned off in Mexico.
Even the Ford shop foreman at North County Ford said it was too early to tell if Fords new technology will win out over the Allison. What is clearly winning out is Ford customer loyalty, which only tells me someone loves thier brand, and is not willing to disclose anything bad even if it were bad. He was pretty insightfull. We agreed when he said clearly, computers and electronics should never have been integrated into automatic transmissions. Of all the transmission repairs, 90% are electrical, and a transmission is not an electical part----At least it should not be one. Take the tech out of the equation and you have a C-6, Turbo 400 and 727 Torqueflight, all were bulletproof.



Excellent excellent post.

I totally agree, take the stupid electronics out of the tranies!!!!!

Smalltimer1
11-28-2004, 06:41 PM
2. We are talking about an F450 here, ok, HEAVY DUTY not a small 1500.

It was in a '83 C-20 with the Dana 70 rear.

Eric 1
11-28-2004, 06:59 PM
It was in a '83 C-20 with the Dana 70 rear.

What was, the truck that had 5 alisions fall out of it?

If so, I am not vary knowledgeable about older alisions. I was not aware they came in those old c20 Chevys, I thought those were th400's?

UNISCAPER
11-28-2004, 07:27 PM
An '83 C-20 would have had a Turbo 400, not an Allison. Allison has been made for 40 years, however, it was not until 1999 that the Allison was installed in a pick up truck.

Smalltimer1
11-28-2004, 09:05 PM
What was, the truck that had 5 alisions fall out of it?

If so, I am not vary knowledgeable about older alisions. I was not aware they came in those old c20 Chevys, I thought those were th400's?

No that was the one that had the 700R4 problems. You originally said that I was comparing a 1500 tranny to a F-450 tranny, but I was pointing out that the 700R4 was not just a 1/2 ton tranny. It had the 6.2L diesel.

I know the Allisons didn't come out until the newer ones. The truck that had the problems with the Allisons was a C-60.

pottstim
11-28-2004, 10:01 PM
No that was the one that had the 700R4 problems. You originally said that I was comparing a 1500 tranny to a F-450 tranny, but I was pointing out that the 700R4 was not just a 1/2 ton tranny. It had the 6.2L diesel.

I know the Allisons didn't come out until the newer ones. The truck that had the problems with the Allisons was a C-60.


From the best of my knowledge, you could only get a 700R4 with the 6.2 in a C-10 (1/2 ton). The C-20's and C-30's came with the turbo 400. Smalltimer, did you know that Ford uses Allison Automatics in their bigger trucks, like the F-650's? Some people I know own a garbage hauling business, and their 650 diesel has an Allison.

UNISCAPER
11-28-2004, 11:47 PM
A C-60 was only available with a 471 Detroit diesel if you wanted the Allison transmission during that year. Also, that Allison would have been a
VS-5000. VS standing for Vacuum Shift, 5 speed. Thier is no similarity to that transmission and the electric shift 5 speed Allison in the 99 and newer pick up trucks. The new Allison shares many parts with the Turbo 400 and has a 2.25" diameter input shaft, compared to Ford's 1.25" diameter input shaft.

Smalltimer1
11-29-2004, 12:30 AM
From the best of my knowledge, you could only get a 700R4 with the 6.2 in a C-10 (1/2 ton). The C-20's and C-30's came with the turbo 400. Smalltimer, did you know that Ford uses Allison Automatics in their bigger trucks, like the F-650's? Some people I know own a garbage hauling business, and their 650 diesel has an Allison.


This C-20 had a 700R4. I think it was a custom ordered thing, but I know it is for sure, I know where the receipts are for it.

Yes I know Ford uses Allisons in the big trucks--but there's a reason why they offer the Eaton-Fullers.

Smalltimer1
11-29-2004, 12:31 AM
A C-60 was only available with a 471 Detroit diesel if you wanted the Allison transmission during that year. Also, that Allison would have been a
VS-5000. VS standing for Vacuum Shift, 5 speed. Thier is no similarity to that transmission and the electric shift 5 speed Allison in the 99 and newer pick up trucks. The new Allison shares many parts with the Turbo 400 and has a 2.25" diameter input shaft, compared to Ford's 1.25" diameter input shaft.

Cat 3208/Allison Auto.

The Ford shaft listed is also for the old 4R100's. The TS is bigger than its predecessors.

UNISCAPER
11-29-2004, 09:46 AM
3208's were not available in C-60. You had to get into a 7500 series to get that engine option. Later,when the Kodiak line was introduced (late 80's) the engine options changed.
A C-60 was nothing more than a glorified pick up truck like Fords F-450, 550 is. It did not have the front suspension to support the weight of a 3208 and an Allison. Most C-60's for farm use were equipped with 292 sixes, or if you wanted a bigger engine you could get a 366.

Eric 1
11-29-2004, 06:43 PM
Dang Uniscaper, And i thought i knew my stuff.

Eric 1
11-29-2004, 06:45 PM
[QUOTE=Smalltimer1]This C-20 had a 700R4. I think it was a custom ordered thing, but I know it is for sure, I know where the receipts are for it.

QUOTE]


It has to be a custom order thing. And personally i would have to say they were stupid to bolt a 700R4 to a diesel.

UNISCAPER
11-29-2004, 10:00 PM
Eric:

I spent many years wrenching on and working for my uncle, who, had every mismade morphidite piece of machinery ever built. The 471 Detroit and a 10 speed road ranger were actually a pretty good match in a C-60. In 1983, the 3208 Cat was still being called the 225 Cat, basically a throw away motor. Cement and garbage trucks ran alot of them, and the only ones I ever saw that hung together were in a fleet owned by BFI, where they ran oil and dumped every 3 weeks. The 292 GM sixes would bog thier way out of about any mudhole going, just would take 4 miles to hit 60 pulling a load. They were an undersquare motor, 3.75" stroke, 3" bore. 500 ft lbs of torque at 2300 RPM. 4 miles to the gallon was pretty specail too!
The 366 is still used today, just a high deck truck block derived from the 427, later the 454. They use that same block in the Chevy racing division to create the 572, 720HP and the 623 cubic inch 750 HP crate motor. The 292 six is still sold and installed in UPS vans, now running fuel injectors and on propane. There really is no new technology out there, and there ain't no substitute for cubic inches.

Smalltimer1
11-30-2004, 12:05 AM
3208's were not available in C-60. You had to get into a 7500 series to get that engine option. Later,when the Kodiak line was introduced (late 80's) the engine options changed.
A C-60 was nothing more than a glorified pick up truck like Fords F-450, 550 is. It did not have the front suspension to support the weight of a 3208 and an Allison. Most C-60's for farm use were equipped with 292 sixes, or if you wanted a bigger engine you could get a 366.

Sorry, it was a C-70, my mistake. I haven't driven it in a good while since I'm in college now.

mrusk
11-30-2004, 06:41 PM
Whats the retail on that single axle granite? Just curious.

matt

UNISCAPER
11-30-2004, 07:23 PM
Truck equipped with 400 HP maxidyne motor, 8 speed mack tranny, Aluminum wheels, 120 gallon fuel tank and chrome up swept exhaust, air seat with bench to passenger side, 44,000 lb axles, Galbreath roll off body, side boxes, trailer hitch and wiring, elctric brake controller, along with 4- 10 cubic yard containers, $81,245.00 and change. No more toy trucks with nad trannies doing the work that needs to be done in this company here....

txlawnking
12-01-2004, 08:27 PM
To set Eric and small timer straight... Ya'll are both right and wrong on the c-20 issue.

1 Small timer: Gm certainly did build LIGHT DUTY 20's with the 700r4 and the 6.2. If the truck was 7500 gvw, you could get the 700 with any engine available in the line except a "J" vin 6.2 or a 454. To get a th400 behind either of those engines.. You had to order the 8600 gvw. The dana 70 rearend was NOT a FACTORY option on the 7500 gvw 20 series, nor the 8600. 7500 came with a 9.5" GM corporate semi floater rearend ( basically a glorified 1/2 ton rearend) whereas the 8600 20 series had the 10.5" GM Full floating rearend ( a bullet proof piece indeed)

Eric.. It wasn't custom :D

Eric 1
12-02-2004, 12:36 PM
To set Eric and small timer straight... Ya'll are both right and wrong on the c-20 issue.

1 Small timer: Gm certainly did build LIGHT DUTY 20's with the 700r4 and the 6.2. If the truck was 7500 gvw, you could get the 700 with any engine available in the line except a "J" vin 6.2 or a 454. To get a th400 behind either of those engines.. You had to order the 8600 gvw. The dana 70 rearend was NOT a FACTORY option on the 7500 gvw 20 series, nor the 8600. 7500 came with a 9.5" GM corporate semi floater rearend ( basically a glorified 1/2 ton rearend) whereas the 8600 20 series had the 10.5" GM Full floating rearend ( a bullet proof piece indeed)

Eric.. It wasn't custom :D


Thank you.

Eric 1
12-02-2004, 12:39 PM
Eric:

I spent many years wrenching on and working for my uncle, who, had every mismade morphidite piece of machinery ever built. The 471 Detroit and a 10 speed road ranger were actually a pretty good match in a C-60. In 1983, the 3208 Cat was still being called the 225 Cat, basically a throw away motor. Cement and garbage trucks ran alot of them, and the only ones I ever saw that hung together were in a fleet owned by BFI, where they ran oil and dumped every 3 weeks. The 292 GM sixes would bog thier way out of about any mudhole going, just would take 4 miles to hit 60 pulling a load. They were an undersquare motor, 3.75" stroke, 3" bore. 500 ft lbs of torque at 2300 RPM. 4 miles to the gallon was pretty specail too!
The 366 is still used today, just a high deck truck block derived from the 427, later the 454. They use that same block in the Chevy racing division to create the 572, 720HP and the 623 cubic inch 750 HP crate motor. The 292 six is still sold and installed in UPS vans, now running fuel injectors and on propane. There really is no new technology out there, and there ain't no substitute for cubic inches.

The second part i knew, but i am not that knowledgeable about the gm diesels.......yet :D I guess there is no substitute for time with a wrench.