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View Full Version : Is Potash organic 0-0-62?


Cheesedawg1
11-27-2004, 09:06 PM
I am doing a organic lawn now on my property and I did my soil analysis. It said to add potash at a rate of 2 lbs per thousand sq ft. My question is that by applying this at such high amounts is it considered organic or is the content so high that it is doing the harm of regular chemical fertilizers?

Hamons
11-27-2004, 10:28 PM
o-o-62 is jsut one type of potash. Potassium Chloride or more commonly known in reference to fertilizers as Muriate od Potash or MOP.

Is it organic? What definition do you want to use? Chemist? OMRI? Mine? Your customers? They are all different -- and all essentially meaningless.

I think one problem with the definition of organic is we try to say anything organic is good. That doesn't work so we try to further narrow it down and say anything naturally organic is good. But that still doesnt work ....just because something is natural organic does not make it good for the soil, the grass or even the environment. example (crude oil, salt water, excessive animal wastes, etc)


In my opinion, which is based on everything I've been able to research, people I have talked to and things that I have seen, naturl organics are an important part of the lawn care picture. However, they cannot be relied on solely of your goal is mainatinin a superior qulaity lawn free of pests and disease.

It seems liek what you realy want to know is if you should apply enough 0-0-62 to give your lawn 2# of K per 1000. 3.2#

This would be a bad idea. Not because MOP is not organic -- but because it is very salty and has a high bur potential. I would split this into 3 applications. SPread about 6 - 8 weeks apart.

I would suggest furtehr that you look into other ways of gettign that K into your soil. Sulfate of Potash is a less salty choice and better for the soil. Itr also does not contain as much chlorine as MOP and will have less of sterilizing effect on the soil.

timturf
11-28-2004, 09:49 AM
Hamons on target, don't use mop, but sop, or you could use greensand, but k is very slowly available

Cheesedawg1
11-28-2004, 11:03 AM
When I mean organic i mean that when you apply the chemical fertlizes like scotts and those other things they cause the benefical insects to disapear and things of the sort because they are harmful to your lawn in the long run. But what I applied as potash 0-0-62 will that last high number cause any of that to happen? Or am i just confusing myself and I shouldnt worry about it? ;)

Hamons
11-28-2004, 11:22 AM
0-0-62 will not kill insects -- either will Scotts.
The last high number will not harm them either .

However, MOP is till a poor choice -- look at other ways of supplying yor grass with need K

timturf
11-28-2004, 05:22 PM
use sop, 0-0-50

Ric
11-28-2004, 07:09 PM
use sop, 0-0-50

WHY


Because 2 pound per Thousand of elemental potash using DOP which is Potassium Chloride leaves a high concentrate of Chloride in the soil. Chloride is in fact essential to some plants however not most. The osmotic forces of Chlorides can cause plants to lose water from the root in a wet soil. Hyper tonic forces of Chloride will do it.

SOP will not raise the pH as much as DOP because the sulfur off sets the effect of the Potassium. SOP is Potassium Sulfate.

Cheesedawg1
11-28-2004, 08:25 PM
damn, i guess im am a little to late. I applied it yesterday. Thanks for the input.

Cheesedawg1
11-28-2004, 08:28 PM
0-0-62 will not kill insects -- either will Scotts.


I was understood that by applying those 4 step programs and all the chemical fertlizers that most people use aren't good for the benefical insects like the fungi, bacteria and other things of that sort that help break down the grass. Is this true or not?

Hamons
11-28-2004, 08:32 PM
It is true -- althopugh often overstated -- that many synthetics have a negative impact on bacteria and othe soil like..... but none of these are INSECTS!

trying 2b organic
11-29-2004, 02:50 AM
Jeff et all. You know a lot and I enjoy getting your opinions on stuff the organic movement tells us. As a recovering idealist I value your knowledge and experience.

Ok, I have been told, and seen it written, that traditional lawn care prgms (just use 4 synth ferts and 3 squirts spot treat 3-way as eg) are very harmful to populations of -- benificial microorganisms-- The heros of the lawn, the fungi and bacteria who make food available to the grass roots slowly as they are needed. That these "good bugs" are the secret to a lawn which is healthier, has less weeds, and is less dependent on chemical inputs.

The organic movement has also told me that there is no middle ground on this issue. That if you are going to even spot treat with a 3 -way than dont bother to use organic fert because you need life in the soil to make this fert available to the grass plants.

Hamons
11-29-2004, 08:01 PM
I find it hard to beleive -- and ahve seen no objective research (if there is such a thing) -- that spot treating responibly with herbicides has a dramatic effect on the living organisims in the soil.

However, continued use of MOP and other simialr materials will negatively impact the organic life of the soil. My comment was directed to his specif question

when you apply the chemical fertlizes like scotts and those other things they cause the benefical insects to disapear

The MOP will not kill beneficial insects. It will however lead to a gradual decline of the living organic material in the soil.

Hamons
11-29-2004, 08:13 PM
UNFORTUNATELY, I think the organic movement is infiltrated with more uninformed, nonsense spouting, blind to reality, head up their as s, incoherent babboons than any other group of people I have come in contact with. Put a group of them on an island and their world would fall apart faster than my dog after a rabbit.

I use natural organics not because of the benefits to the environment -- because of the fact that I can produce better results which my customers are willing to pay for!

If all customers were willing to pay for the type of service I provide -- more companys would provide it. The fault of poor lawncare practices is shared heavily by our cheap, wal-mart trained, consumer base that wants everyhting for next to nothing despite the long-term consequences. It is cheaper and more effective for the high-volume companies to use cheap short-term products and blanket spray broad-sprectum pesticides -- this iswhat the market has demanded and will continue to get unless otherwise regualted or legislated.

This last part is a rant and may not be completley intelligible by anyone other than me :)

Ric
11-29-2004, 08:21 PM
Jeff

It is the Chloride in MOP that causes the problem, not so much the Potash. Now in the Microbial world "everything is everywhere and the environment selects the population level of the Microbial" Too much of anything is not good. Therefore we need to manage our soil in Micro steps not Macro. An ex sample is this post. To apply 2 lbs of elemental Potassium at one time is too such too soon. Especially using DOP.

Cheesedawg1
11-29-2004, 08:25 PM
but none of these are INSECTS!

Are these insects which I know nothing about, helpful for the lawn or bad? Should I be concerned with the positive or negatives they bring to my lawn?

Cheesedawg1
11-29-2004, 08:28 PM
I use natural organics not because of the benefits to the environment -- because of the fact that I can produce better results which my customers are willing to pay for!


What kind of program do you provide your customers with in order to make there lawn look better using organics? Like what kind of stuff do you apply to the lawn? Do you go about applying the stuff at a set time of the season like chemical fertlizers have or do you add what each lawn neeeeds on a need basis? How do you go about this and try to sell it to your customers?

Hamons
11-29-2004, 08:31 PM
What insects!!!! Your use of MOP does not have any effect on insect popilations!!!!!

An insect is a small animal with a rigid external skeleton, three body sections, three pairs of legs, and antennae.

I beleive what your organic message boards are referreing to are the microoganisms living in the soil that are sterilized by the CHLORIDES in the MOP.

Hamons
11-29-2004, 08:38 PM
My program uses a combination of natural organic fertilizers bridged with synthetics provided in a four step program. Each customer is soil tested and amount and type of material is adjusted accordingly.

My primary fertilizer is a 10-2-8 100% organic. My lawns get about 20#/1000 of this per year, 5# of 21-3-7 - 75% organic fertiliZer and a spring preemergent.

I use responsible use of herbicides to ensure a weed-free lawn.

I have little difficulty selling mys ervices and work mostly off referrals. However, it should be noted that I currently service about 250K of turf and am near saturation. I am also a school teacher and am therfore limited in the number of customers I can service. I am unconvinced my market could sustain my service and price point enough to grow a comapny to mega proportions.

Ric
11-29-2004, 08:39 PM
What kind of program do you provide your customers with in order to make there lawn look better using organics?


Cheese

Without Modern Chemicals, Not much.

Hello this is the 21th century.

Now Bridge products or combinations of Organic Synthetic can be very good. The Microbes are an essential part of the life cycle and Organics help their environment.

Cheesedawg1
11-30-2004, 08:36 AM
thanks for the input

timturf
11-30-2004, 11:19 AM
Jeff It is the Chloride in MOP that causes the problem, not so much the Potash.
Now in the Microbial world "everything is everywhere and the environment selects the population level of the Microbial" Too much of anything is not good. Therefore we need to manage our soil in Micro steps not Macro. An ex sample is this post. To apply 2 lbs of elemental Potassium at one time is too such too soon. Especially using DOP.

Not only the chlorine but also the the higher salt level over sop!

timturf
11-30-2004, 11:23 AM
I find it hard to beleive -- and ahve seen no objective research (if there is such a thing) -- that spot treating responibly with herbicides has a dramatic effect on the living organisims in the soil. However, continued use of MOP and other simialr materials will negatively impact the organic life of the soil. My comment was directed to his specif question

The MOP will not kill beneficial insects. It will however lead to a gradual decline of the living organic material in the soil.

Any objective research on herbicides applied responsibly having a dramatic negative effect on soil microbes?

timturf
11-30-2004, 11:29 AM
UNFORTUNATELY, I think the organic movement is infiltrated with more uninformed, nonsense spouting, blind to reality, head up their as s, incoherent babboons than any other group of people I have come in contact with. Put a group of them on an island and their world would fall apart faster than my dog after a rabbit.

I use natural organics not because of the benefits to the environment -- because of the fact that I can produce better results which my customers are willing to pay for!

If all customers were willing to pay for the type of service I provide -- more companys would provide it. The fault of poor lawncare practices is shared heavily by our cheap, wal-mart trained, consumer base that wants everyhting for next to nothing despite the long-term consequences. It is cheaper and more effective for the high-volume companies to use cheap short-term products and blanket spray broad-sprectum pesticides -- this iswhat the market has demanded and will continue to get unless otherwise regualted or legislated.

This last part is a rant and may not be completley intelligible by anyone other than me :)

I agree, their sure does seem to be alot of misinformed people who clain 100% organics is the only thing to use!

timturf
11-30-2004, 11:35 AM
My program uses a combination of natural organic fertilizers bridged with synthetics provided in a four step program. Each customer is soil tested and amount and type of material is adjusted accordingly.

My primary fertilizer is a 10-2-8 100% organic. My lawns get about 20#/1000 of this per year, 5# of 21-3-7 - 75% organic fertiliZer and a spring preemergent.

I use responsible use of herbicides to ensure a weed-free lawn.

I have little difficulty selling mys ervices and work mostly off referrals. However, it should be noted that I currently service about 250K of turf and am near saturation. I am also a school teacher and am therfore limited in the number of customers I can service. I am unconvinced my market could sustain my service and price point enough to grow a comapny to mega proportions.

Do you mean 100% natural organic? I assume it contains sop, which isn't an organic, but I consider a natural product! I know I getting pretty technical!

Dchall_San_Antonio
11-30-2004, 03:07 PM
What kind of program do you provide your customers with in order to make there lawn look better using organics?
Cheese

Without Modern Chemicals, Not much.

Hello this is the 21th century.

Now Bridge products or combinations of Organic Synthetic can be very good. The Microbes are an essential part of the life cycle and Organics help their environment.
I am absolutely convinced that a 100% organic program will provide a turf that is equal to, if not better than, a chemical or bridge program. It will take less overall care, cost less, and look at least as good as the best chemical managed sites. This can be done effectively and efficiently on 100 square feet or 100 square acres (with or without cattle running all over it). I'm not talking about "under ideal circumstances" either. I'm talking about side by side comparisons with equal sun/shade and rain.

Now let's talk about the ability of the professional to deliver such a lawn. Professionals are hampered by the state consumer protection laws which try to keep the fly-by-nights out of the industry. I think this is a good thing, but unfortunately these laws are also hampering the advancement of very beneficial organic treatments for disease, insects, and weeds. If you were legally allowed to spray corn meal tea, milk, garlic juice, and/or compost tea for fungal disease suppression, you would cut your cost and hassle to the bare bone. If you were allowed to brew and spray your own naturally occurring beneficial enzymes, same thing. For now in order to get a legal label on the modern organic materials it costs a fortune, which is reflected in the high cost to the professional. Homeowners can do it but professionals cannot legally do the same thing.

Yes this is the 21st century. And as we proceed into it I expect to see more natural materials doing a better job than the chemicals from the past centuries.

Cheesedawg1
11-30-2004, 04:33 PM
I have already applied the potash 0-0-62 at 2 lbs per thousand sq feet. Is there anything else I should do to try to lessen the salt and the chlorine which I added to my property?

Cheesedawg1
11-30-2004, 04:35 PM
If you were legally allowed to spray corn meal tea, milk, garlic juice, and/or compost tea for fungal disease suppression, you would cut your cost and hassle to the bare bone.


I am not familar with the benefits of tea or milk. Is there a website or book you can refer me to that could explain me a little more about ways to apply it and the benefits?

Hamons
11-30-2004, 05:29 PM
Do you mean 100% natural organic? I assume it contains sop, which isn't an organic, but I consider a natural product! I know I getting pretty technical!

Yes -- I suppose your right depending on the definition. Here are its ingredients: Feather, meat, bone and blood meals, sulfate of potash, yeast, sugars, carbohydrates & humus.

Ric
12-01-2004, 11:25 PM
I am absolutely convinced that a 100% organic program will provide a turf that is equal to, if not better than, a chemical or bridge program. It will take less overall care, cost less, and look at least as good as the best chemical managed sites. This can be done effectively and efficiently on 100 square feet or 100 square acres (with or without cattle running all over it). I'm not talking about "under ideal circumstances" either. I'm talking about side by side comparisons with equal sun/shade and rain.

Now let's talk about the ability of the professional to deliver such a lawn. Professionals are hampered by the state consumer protection laws which try to keep the fly-by-nights out of the industry. I think this is a good thing, but unfortunately these laws are also hampering the advancement of very beneficial organic treatments for disease, insects, and weeds. If you were legally allowed to spray corn meal tea, milk, garlic juice, and/or compost tea for fungal disease suppression, you would cut your cost and hassle to the bare bone. If you were allowed to brew and spray your own naturally occurring beneficial enzymes, same thing. For now in order to get a legal label on the modern organic materials it costs a fortune, which is reflected in the high cost to the professional. Homeowners can do it but professionals cannot legally do the same thing.

Yes this is the 21st century. And as we proceed into it I expect to see more natural materials doing a better job than the chemicals from the past centuries.


Doug

As a home owner and not a real professional without any form of formal training, I am sure you are absolutely convinced in the high cost of organics. However we who ACTUALLY are professionals and make our living in the Green Industry, Know that all Organic Programs can not compare to a combined Organic-Synthetic program.

I therefore recommend that you keep putting Sugar Water and Milk on the Texas Lawn of your Condo and when the Fire Ants start marching into your Apartment, the condo association can call a real professional to solve the problem that you created.

Yes It really burns my butt that a retire Government Engineer who has never been in The Green Industry or has no formal training or credentials is trying to Dictate agronomy to Those who are trying to make their living in the Green Industry. Thank You, but I will stay with the University Studies and Industry Publications as my source of information.

Ric
12-01-2004, 11:31 PM
Not only the chlorine but also the the higher salt level over sop!


Tim

What is salt??

Sodium Chloride



How much Sodium is the in other compounds of used to fertilize??

What Element should you apply to high sodium soil to neutralize the sodium??

timturf
12-02-2004, 03:11 PM
Tim

What is salt??

Sodium Chloride



How much Sodium is the in other compounds of used to fertilize??

What Element should you apply to high sodium soil to neutralize the sodium??

Ok ric,

salt is sodium chloride, mop is potassium chloride, I usually think of chloride coming from mop, while sodium ( which i think of as salt instead of sodium chloride) comming from nitrogen fertilizer sources! Don't take into account any of p, since so little is applied! I know that even some of the organic fertilizer contain some salt! Yes, when ever we apply salt, we are getting sodium and chlorine, which both are harmfull to micro organism!
Now the quote in read, please refrase, cause I don't understand what you are asking!

And remember, It's been much longer since I have had a soils and fertilizer slass, like 20 years ago!!!!!!!!!

As far as what element, that wasy, I'll let somebody else answer!
email me if you can
tim

Elmos
12-02-2004, 03:26 PM
"What Element should you apply to high sodium soil to neutralize the sodium??"

Water :)

Ric
12-02-2004, 04:12 PM
Ok ric,

salt is sodium chloride, mop is potassium chloride, I usually think of chloride coming from mop, while sodium ( which i think of as salt instead of sodium chloride) comming from nitrogen fertilizer sources! Don't take into account any of p, since so little is applied! I know that even some of the organic fertilizer contain some salt! Yes, when ever we apply salt, we are getting sodium and chlorine, which both are harmfull to micro organism!
Now the quote in read, please refrase, cause I don't understand what you are asking!

And remember, It's been much longer since I have had a soils and fertilizer slass, like 20 years ago!!!!!!!!!

As far as what element, that wasy, I'll let somebody else answer!
email me if you can
tim


Tim

Sorry, English grammar is not my expertise. The question is how much sodium is there in other compounds we use to fertilize with. Or where does the soil get excess sodium from??


BTW isn't MOP, Light Salt??? and doesn't Morton's sell it in the grocery store??

timturf
12-02-2004, 06:02 PM
Tim

Sorry, English grammar is not my expertise. The question is how much sodium is there in other compounds we use to fertilize with. Or where does the soil get excess sodium from??

BTW isn't MOP, Light Salt??? and doesn't Morton's sell it in the grocery store??

You can find that by looking at the salt index of a fertilizer, and most, if not all fertilizer do have salt in them, even the organics! I'm not sure about the organics, but I have seen the salt index on a few of them, and I believe their is one sythetic nitrogen source whose salt index is lower than milorganite!

elmos,
what else can you apply to neutralize a salty soil besides water?

dishboy
12-02-2004, 06:39 PM
You can find that by looking at the salt index of a fertilizer, and most, if not all fertilizer do have salt in them, even the organics! I'm not sure about the organics, but I have seen the salt index on a few of them, and I believe their is one sythetic nitrogen source whose salt index is lower than milorganite!

elmos,
what else can you apply to neutralize a salty soil besides water?


Won't Gypsum help exchange sodium ions?

Elmos
12-03-2004, 10:09 AM
elmos,
what else can you apply to neutralize a salty soil besides water?
Lime. Calcium carbonate or dolomitic. In this case the best thing to do is apply irrigation to leach salts.

timturf
12-03-2004, 05:36 PM
Well ric,

you have some replys to grade!

Hamons
12-03-2004, 06:29 PM
Ok -- as I understand it. The idea that gypsum will neutralize the salt in soils is not true. What the gypsum will do is replace the sodium off of the soils exchange sites and then let the sodium be leached out of the root zone.

To say Gypsum will reduce salt is kind of a strange since gypsum IS a salt. Gypsum basically only helps soils that are both saline and sodic. A soil that is only high in soluable salt would be worsened by the addition of more salt in the form of gypsum.

Your question was -- What element should be applied -- Gypsum is not an element -- but calcium is. Calcium and Soium are the two elemnts in Gypsum. There are many calcium products that are more soluable and faster acting than gypsum.

My answer - Calcium

timturf
12-03-2004, 09:34 PM
hamonns,

isn't sulfer in gypsum also?


What do you think, professor ric?

Hamons
12-03-2004, 09:40 PM
Your right tim -- I meant to say calcium and sulfur -- see waht happens when my dyslexia combined with my ADD run smack dab into my ignorance? Thanks for setting me straight.

Ric
12-04-2004, 06:15 PM
Hamons, Tim, Dishboy, Elmo and other interested parties


Calcium, Ca, is essential for plant strength. Calcium does not trans locate within a plant, nor does it leach from the soil. Calcium nitrite is the cure for weak flushes of growth and fruit rotting at blossom end. It helps high traffic area turf, because it is in a form that is available to the plant. Gypsum CaSO4-2(H2O), Hydrated Calcium Sulfate Clean exchange sites of essential elements and the Sulfur or Calcium are not available for uptake by the plant.

Now in extreme cases like road salt Horticulture Gypsum should be used to Flush the Sodium (and all other elements) from all the Exchange sites. However My Question is What Element of Fertilizer should be used to counter act Sodium in a salt water spray or Irrigation well that has a high PPM Sodium.

Elmo

Water evaporation can bring the Sodium content of the soil back to an even higher Sodium level than before. Therefore only if your soil has a high Infiltration rate and low field capacity would you over water a Sodium rich soil.

Hamons
12-04-2004, 08:06 PM
Thanks Ric -- I learned something new!

nocutting
04-02-2005, 12:08 PM
o-o-62 is jsut one type of potash. Potassium Chloride or more commonly known in reference to fertilizers as Muriate od Potash or MOP.

Is it organic? What definition do you want to use? Chemist? OMRI? Mine? Your customers? They are all different -- and all essentially meaningless.

I think one problem with the definition of organic is we try to say anything organic is good. That doesn't work so we try to further narrow it down and say anything naturally organic is good. But that still doesnt work ....just because something is natural organic does not make it good for the soil, the grass or even the environment. example (crude oil, salt water, excessive animal wastes, etc)


In my opinion, which is based on everything I've been able to research, people I have talked to and things that I have seen, naturl organics are an important part of the lawn care picture. However, they cannot be relied on solely of your goal is mainatinin a superior qulaity lawn free of pests and disease.

It seems liek what you realy want to know is if you should apply enough 0-0-62 to give your lawn 2# of K per 1000. 3.2#

This would be a bad idea. Not because MOP is not organic -- but because it is very salty and has a high bur potential. I would split this into 3 applications. SPread about 6 - 8 weeks apart.

I would suggest furtehr that you look into other ways of gettign that K into your soil. Sulfate of Potash is a less salty choice and better for the soil. Itr also does not contain as much chlorine as MOP and will have less of sterilizing effect on the soil.......Anyone ever hear of "Greensand", thats organic, wont kill off the benificial organisms in the soil are almost all "Chemical Fertilizers" Do!!!!!!!! or maybe the "Atom Bomb" will do the Trick?- Regards Saxon :)

timturf
04-02-2005, 03:31 PM
greensand is agreat product, but the potash level is low, ~ 7%, and takes a long time to be all avaliable

Grandview
04-11-2005, 07:59 PM
Don't worry about 2#/1000 of 0-0-62. That is not even 90 pounds/acre. I have seen rates 5 times that applied with no harmful effects. Chloride will quickly leach out of the soil profile since it has a negetive charge and is not attracted to clay and organic particles.

timturf
04-11-2005, 09:25 PM
I sure wouldn';t apply 10 lbs of 0-0-62 /m, in fact I avoid mop at all cost!

Grandview
04-12-2005, 07:34 PM
Have you ever tried it?

timturf
04-13-2005, 09:18 AM
Have you ever tried it?

tried what? 10lbs of mop, or just mop?

Grandview
04-14-2005, 05:15 AM
10 pounds of 0-0-62/Thousand.

timturf
04-15-2005, 09:43 AM
NO

I wouldn't proable never apply 6 lbs of k/m at one time, no matter what the source!

Again, I seldom use mop, due to the high salt index!