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danslawncare
12-21-2004, 08:19 PM
I recently posted a thread about how to make money with my sub utility tractor. Anothe memeber sugguseted i use it as a ZTR. I don't mean to make him sound silly, as i apprechate his responce, but do you think it would cut and work as well as a ZTR? A garden tractor will cut as well as a ZTR?

williamjordan84
12-21-2004, 08:46 PM
A garden tractor will cut just as good as a ZTR. I have been running 2 Kubota G5200 diesel tractors for the past 4 years. I upgrated this year to a Kubota ZG 20. I find the tractors easier to get on and off and are better on my hills. ZTR is just plain faster on the turns :)

jtkplc
12-21-2004, 08:47 PM
never, unless you don't have to turn around!

danslawncare
12-21-2004, 08:48 PM
So you guys wouldn't feel weird showing up at a costomers house with a Utility Tractor instead of a Commerical Walk behind. I just think that they would look down upon that...maybe i'm just not accepting this?

LawnBoy89
12-21-2004, 08:49 PM
It will just take you a little bit longer.

blair smock
12-21-2004, 09:41 PM
but most tractors do not have a commercial grade of deck and will not hold up as well, (reffering to belly mowers) If I were you I would be advertising Bush hogging! Sounds like you are almost their.

Envy Lawn Service
12-21-2004, 10:45 PM
A garden tractor will cut just as good as a ZTR. I have been running 2 Kubota G5200 diesel tractors for the past 4 years. I upgrated this year to a Kubota ZG 20. I find the tractors easier to get on and off and are better on my hills. ZTR is just plain faster on the turns :)
Well, I'll tell ya what, I'd almost bet money you'll be headed for the dealer just as fast as you can go when you find out what's coming out for 2005. I'm #1 on the list and I'm pretty sure I'll be bringing one home.

But don't ask because I've been sworn to secrecy and the MFG of said product is VERY sensitive about any information leaks at this point. I'll spill the beans as soon as possible.

walker-talker
12-21-2004, 11:09 PM
So you guys wouldn't feel weird showing up at a costomers house with a Utility Tractor instead of a Commerical Walk behind. I just think that they would look down upon that...maybe i'm just not accepting this?
I think most are judged in this business being the lawn boy, grass guy or mower dude.....reguardless of what we use to cut their lawn. So my answer is no, I don't think they would look down on you because you use a tractor. Now, other LCO's might secretly poke fun of you. I started off with a Murray tractor. Upgrading to a ZTR saved about 30% of my time. Absolutely could not live without it. I think you existing customers might have a higher respect for you if you USED to use a tractor and then saw that you bought a fancy ZTR. Most will percieve this as business is good for you, you made a considerable investment and you are here to stay.

Travis Followell
12-22-2004, 06:32 AM
Well, I'll tell ya what, I'd almost bet money you'll be headed for the dealer just as fast as you can go when you find out what's coming out for 2005. I'm #1 on the list and I'm pretty sure I'll be bringing one home.

But don't ask because I've been sworn to secrecy and the MFG of said product is VERY sensitive about any information leaks at this point. I'll spill the beans as soon as possible.
Envy, will you be able to talk about it come January 1, 2005. I'm guessing its a Simplicity so we'll have to see if i'm right later on.

ztoro
12-22-2004, 07:55 AM
Well, I'll tell ya what, I'd almost bet money you'll be headed for the dealer just as fast as you can go when you find out what's coming out for 2005. I'm #1 on the list and I'm pretty sure I'll be bringing one home.

But don't ask because I've been sworn to secrecy and the MFG of said product is VERY sensitive about any information leaks at this point. I'll spill the beans as soon as possible.


i hate when people do this...... "I have all this great information that will change the tractor mowing world, but dont ask me to tell you....."

I wish they would just wait til they could talk about it........ before they drop one of these "I know something you dont know......"

The Yard Barber, Inc.
12-22-2004, 08:46 AM
If you have enough room on you trailer, I think that you will find another mower on your trailer very productive. First, riding mowers to me perform much better on slopes than ztr's and if someone works with you, you can have two machines running at the same time which will save a lot of time.

danslawncare
12-22-2004, 09:02 AM
Do you guys realize that this is a small utility tractor with a belly mower? Does that change your opinions?

Tvov
12-22-2004, 09:04 AM
Sure you can use a tractor, but they aren't even close to ZTRs in "production". On a nice open football field, a tractor can compete with a ZTR for mowing, but the second you get onto a residential (or commercial!) yard with obstacles, the ZTR will blow away a tractor.

Also, most ZTRs have mowing decks designed to give a good cut at speed, whereas most (not all) tractor decks are simply enlarged "homeowner" decks. The garden tractors I've seen simply don't have the quality of cut of ZTRs.

I started out with a garden tractor with a 42" deck. When I went to a 48" belt drive walkbehind, I was amazed at how much faster I mowed, even walking. Most of it had to do with handling, because in the large open lawns the tractor was faster, but eventually you have to turn.

Since you have the tractor, use it. When you begin to buy ZTRs, the tractor will probably be used as a back up mower, or if you get big commercial jobs it will be used for those.

Mickhippy
12-22-2004, 09:04 AM
I think I posted this on another thread but thought it apt for here, hope ya's dont mind. Was a first time job I did last week!

The deck has been bent a few times where the spindle attaches to the deck from hitting bricks, large rocks and a block splitter :realmad: (X between an axe and a sledge hammer, if you call them something different over there!)

Was easily bent back and no worries. No problems with the spindles yet either!

Tvov
12-22-2004, 09:07 AM
In my experience, most customers don't give a hoot what kind of mower you use, as long as the lawn is 1: cut, and 2: looks good, in that order.

danslawncare
12-22-2004, 09:56 AM
it is a professional cut, and i do have a Brand New 36" commerical walk behind. But there are a few lots i know i can do faster with a 60" cut even on a tractor. You would still suggust a tractor?

Smalltimer1
12-22-2004, 11:24 AM
Sure you can use a tractor, but they aren't even close to ZTRs in "production". On a nice open football field, a tractor can compete with a ZTR for mowing, but the second you get onto a residential (or commercial!) yard with obstacles, the ZTR will blow away a tractor.

Also, most ZTRs have mowing decks designed to give a good cut at speed, whereas most (not all) tractor decks are simply enlarged "homeowner" decks. The garden tractors I've seen simply don't have the quality of cut of ZTRs.

I started out with a garden tractor with a 42" deck. When I went to a 48" belt drive walkbehind, I was amazed at how much faster I mowed, even walking. Most of it had to do with handling, because in the large open lawns the tractor was faster, but eventually you have to turn.

Since you have the tractor, use it. When you begin to buy ZTRs, the tractor will probably be used as a back up mower, or if you get big commercial jobs it will be used for those.

So you're for quantity over quality??

Most decent mower decks (48"/54"/60/62") (JD, Cub, Simplicity) use a mower
that shares nothing with a homeowner deck. I will agree with you however on the Murray, Craftsman and MTD mowers. They are purposely built for heavy cutting and have thick gauge metal for the decks, thicker than most ZTR's. I've used my JD for 5 years, and I've done places where ZTR's were used before, and I've been told my garden tractor blew away the ZTR's in cut quality. Who cares about the turning if you're out for QUALITY and not QUANTITY.

Smalltimer1
12-22-2004, 11:33 AM
but most tractors do not have a commercial grade of deck and will not hold up as well, (reffering to belly mowers) If I were you I would be advertising Bush hogging! Sounds like you are almost their.

Incorrect. If its a JD the garden tractor decks are thicker than the comparable ZTR's with bigger spindles and bearings. I have used my GT-235 with a 54" mid mount deck for 5 years without any of the problems you have mentioned. I've hit bricks and pulverized them, cut off the tops of rocks, hit stobs, all of the crap that you can't see well, especially on those yards that are "resurrection jobs".

The older JD decks before the late 80's were similar to the Murrays and stuff in thickness but they learned their lesson after a bunch would rust out and go bad, and they started building beefy decent ones.

Smalltimer1
12-22-2004, 11:41 AM
So you're for quantity over quality??

Most decent mower decks (48"/54"/60/62") (JD, Cub, Simplicity) use a mower
that shares nothing with a homeowner deck. I will agree with you however on the Murray, Craftsman and MTD mowers, they are crap. However, the JD, etc., are purposely built for heavy cutting and have thick gauge metal for the decks, thicker than most ZTR's. I've used my JD for 5 years, and I've done places where ZTR's were used before, and I've been told my garden tractor blew away the ZTR's in cut quality. Who cares about the turning if you're out for QUALITY and not QUANTITY.


The corrected statement from above.

YardPro
12-22-2004, 05:46 PM
Also, most ZTRs have mowing decks designed to give a good cut at speed, whereas most (not all) tractor decks are simply enlarged "homeowner" decks. The garden tractors I've seen simply don't have the quality of cut of ZTRs.



i think you and a few others that have posted questions on the deck quality don't know alot about tractors with belly mowers attached.

these are not the murray or MTD's you started out with. they are utility tractors with belly mowers added. they are as good of a deck as one on a ztr ( which is in all reality a belly mower. the deck is under the machine on the ztr's as well.

Flex-Deck
12-22-2004, 06:13 PM
I would invite anyone to come to SE. Iowa with their ZTR on a small (Lots of obstacles type yard) and see if they can blow my 595 away.

You ZTR people are still living in the 70's when tractors were cumbersom - had no turning radius etc. Bet most of you have not even demo'd a tractor in the last 15 years.

jtkplc
12-22-2004, 06:42 PM
I used a Simplicity Landlord (18HP B&S, 50") and a Craftsman (16.5HP Tech.,42") for about 5 years before buying a Gravely 260Z. Both riders were hydrostatic. Maneuverability is much higher with a ZTR and the biggest gain in efficiency is ground speed both forward and backwards. I don't know many tractors that can not only go 13-15 MPH but actually give a quality cut at those speeds. I know the quality of cut is much better w/ my 260 than the tractors were.

olderthandirt
12-22-2004, 09:41 PM
Incorrect. If its a JD the garden tractor decks are thicker than the comparable ZTR's with bigger spindles and bearings. I have used my GT-235 with a 54" mid mount deck for 5 years without any of the problems you have mentioned. I've hit bricks and pulverized them, cut off the tops of rocks, hit stobs, all of the crap that you can't see well, especially on those yards that are "resurrection jobs".
What or why would you be using any kind of finish mower/deck in an area that needs resurrected? If you have a tractor and that is what the thread was about you should have a bush hog hung off the back of the 3 point on the small compact tractors. No a tractor with a belly mower will not give the same quility of cut. If they would why would anyone buy a z? you can do so much more with a tractor but somethings going to be lacking. In the case of a Z compared to a compact tractor you will sacrafice quility and speed of cut when obsticles are to be mowed around.

Mac

65hoss
12-22-2004, 09:42 PM
This has to be one of the most amazing threads this winter. Simply amazing. I know where this site has been, but where it is heading is scary.

BOTURF
12-22-2004, 09:51 PM
I have used both... started in this biz with a JD tractor then switched to commercial grade walk behinds witha velke before going to a ztr and i can tell you what my production doubled as soon as i ditched the tractor was doing 32 accounts tractor wise and that was all i could do now at 64 accounts and still growing with walks and ztrs

Soupy
12-22-2004, 10:07 PM
I would invite anyone to come to SE. Iowa with their ZTR on a small (Lots of obstacles type yard) and see if they can blow my 595 away.

You ZTR people are still living in the 70's when tractors were cumbersom - had no turning radius etc. Bet most of you have not even demo'd a tractor in the last 15 years.

Before I finished reading the 1st page I told myself, I bet Flexdeck has something to say about this. I was planning on seeing a picture though :) Brad, I thought we have been through this before, your situation is different then 90% of the guys on here. I will invite you to come to St. Louis area for a contest on my size properties. We can do 10 lawns at 10 different places and see who finishes first. It's all good though, I would be proud of myself too If I had built that mower.

SunSwept
12-22-2004, 11:25 PM
I recently posted a thread about how to make money with my sub utility tractor. Anothe memeber sugguseted i use it as a ZTR. I don't mean to make him sound silly, as i apprechate his responce, but do you think it would cut and work as well as a ZTR? A garden tractor will cut as well as a ZTR?

If I understand what you are asking ... will it cut as well ... sure. The blades of the tractor go round and round just like the blades of the ZTR. Will it cut as fast ... maybe so. Depends upon how fast the tractor will go. Will it work as well as a ZTR? Depends upon the situation. I find that my Z is generally better and faster but there are a few cases that I like using a tractor. I also find that on more delicate lawns the Z will tear up the grass a lot easier. You gotta handle it REAL gentle. They are just TOO agile!

Someone mentioned a deck and how long it might last. While the deck of a lawn and garden tractor might very well wear out faster than the deck of a commercial grade ZTR, I doubt that anyone can tell the difference in the cut of the grass if the two of them were to cut side by side.

To answer your question ... I use both, have used both and will probably continue to use both ... depending upon the situations that I come across. The tractor gives me more of a workout for steering but I seem to get a smoother ride from it. If you have a tractor ... use it. If you don't ... please consider a ZTR. And while a ZTR can really move out it can also easily destroy parts of a lawn just because it is so maneuverable ... more maneuverable that some lawns can take.

Mickhippy
12-23-2004, 04:52 AM
If I understand what you are asking ... will it cut as well ... sure. The blades of the tractor go round and round just like the blades of the ZTR. Will it cut as fast ... maybe so. Depends upon how fast the tractor will go. Will it work as well as a ZTR? Depends upon the situation. I find that my Z is generally better and faster but there are a few cases that I like using a tractor. I also find that on more delicate lawns the Z will tear up the grass a lot easier. You gotta handle it REAL gentle. They are just TOO agile!

Someone mentioned a deck and how long it might last. While the deck of a lawn and garden tractor might very well wear out faster than the deck of a commercial grade ZTR, I doubt that anyone can tell the difference in the cut of the grass if the two of them were to cut side by side.

To answer your question ... I use both, have used both and will probably continue to use both ... depending upon the situations that I come across. The tractor gives me more of a workout for steering but I seem to get a smoother ride from it. If you have a tractor ... use it. If you don't ... please consider a ZTR. And while a ZTR can really move out it can also easily destroy parts of a lawn just because it is so maneuverable ... more maneuverable that some lawns can take.

This is the best post of this thread so far!

I would love a ZTR but some of you lot are saying how fast they are etc etc. That may be so on smooth ground but I sh!t you not, mow at full speed on most of the stuff I do you will either damage ya mowers or damage yourself! Take that pic of mine above for example, looks smooth dont it. I can tell you it aint!
I see pics on here of the smootthest turf in the world and thats fine too but put a Z on a horse paddock and see if you can go full steam. You would go no faster than say my 595 and thats for sure. By the way, the JD cuts bloody well and I'd put it up against any other mower out there on any given turf!

Will you turn around faster? I'm sure you will but we're talking a few seconds if that! Big deal! On good, damp turf, dont you have to do 3 point turns on a Z anyway?

To end my little rant, Frankley, I want a ZTR and will get one sooner or later but right now, my little JD is going fine, but it really isnt "Commercial" and most likely wont stand up to the riggers of time.

I will keep it though because not only can it mow a good lawn, it will go were a ZTR would crumble!

easycareacres
12-23-2004, 06:37 AM
g'day room, well intersting topic as both types mowing so diff. I have to use z turn mowers as situation there are wooden square timbers placed around about 5 million tree's so saves whipper guys many hours, days infact.
Now same size areas I do with tractor where no square's to be done tractor 3 point linkage nicer to operate. It can be equal I feel if had no obstacles just bit friendler with zd turns but then in heavy turf they spew a little.
Merry xmas usa from down under. :p

Tvov
12-23-2004, 09:02 AM
Do you guys realize that this is a small utility tractor with a belly mower? Does that change your opinions?

What type of tractor are you talking about? What size belly mower? It seems that some on this thread are thinking small garden/lawn tractors (like I am), others mean much larger commercial/utility tractors.

Tvov
12-23-2004, 09:27 AM
So you're for quantity over quality??

Most decent mower decks (48"/54"/60/62") (JD, Cub, Simplicity) use a mower
that shares nothing with a homeowner deck. Who cares about the turning if you're out for QUALITY and not QUANTITY.

I'm for both. You have to get lawns cut in order to make money, and do a good job to keep the customers.

I guess I do not know about the larger belly mowers. None of the dealers near me carry them, and no one that I know uses them commercially. I have never seen a belly mower on a tractor in the 60" size range or larger being used by a lawn service in my area. I guess I should get out more often ( :o ). Once (that's right, once!) in New Jersey, I saw a utility tractor with a larger belly mower (maybe 72"??) mowing the large open spaces of a massive townhouse complex. It did a terrible job, but was fast and got the grass cut. On the fancy homeowner tractors that my local dealers carry, the mower decks on the JD and Simplicity tractors (up to around 54") don't compare to any of my walkbehinds or riders in regards to heavy duty construction. The larger utility tractors that they carry, they don't have the belly mowers because as the dealers say "no one buys them".

All I can do, as anyone here, is give advice based on my own experience. Free advice is worth every penny that you pay for it.

As I've already said, use what you have now. You have to work with the equipment you have now, not what you hope to have in the future (why does that sound familiar??). If the big belly mowers work for you, Great!! Use them.

Tvov
12-23-2004, 09:35 AM
This is the best post of this thread so far!

I would love a ZTR but some of you lot are saying how fast they are etc etc. That may be so on smooth ground but I sh!t you not, mow at full speed on most of the stuff I do you will either damage ya mowers or damage yourself! Take that pic of mine above for example, looks smooth dont it. I can tell you it aint!
I see pics on here of the smootthest turf in the world and thats fine too but put a Z on a horse paddock and see if you can go full steam. You would go no faster than say my 595 and thats for sure. By the way, the JD cuts bloody well and I'd put it up against any other mower out there on any given turf!

Will you turn around faster? I'm sure you will but we're talking a few seconds if that! Big deal! On good, damp turf, dont you have to do 3 point turns on a Z anyway?

To end my little rant, Frankley, I want a ZTR and will get one sooner or later but right now, my little JD is going fine, but it really isnt "Commercial" and most likely wont stand up to the riggers of time.

I will keep it though because not only can it mow a good lawn, it will go were a ZTR would crumble!

Have you used ZTRs with suspension systems? Like Ferris? Most ZTRs have available some sort of suspension system, either full suspension like Ferris or suspension seats. Makes a huge difference when mowing rough ground. Like has been said about hydro, once you use suspension you will never go back!

easycareacres
12-24-2004, 03:13 AM
was talking about both types !

Envy Lawn Service
12-24-2004, 04:14 AM
i hate when people do this...... "I have all this great information that will change the tractor mowing world, but dont ask me to tell you....."

I wish they would just wait til they could talk about it........ before they drop one of these "I know something you dont know......"

SORRY!

Just can't wait to talk about it is all. It's killing me here. I had to say something.

Envy Lawn Service
12-24-2004, 04:23 AM
What type of tractor are you talking about? What size belly mower? It seems that some on this thread are thinking small garden/lawn tractors (like I am), others mean much larger commercial/utility tractors.

danslawncare,

I second the above question. Info is needed.... meanwhile I'll be getting into the off-topic L&G tractor discussion.

Envy Lawn Service
12-24-2004, 04:34 AM
This has to be one of the most amazing threads this winter. Simply amazing. I know where this site has been, but where it is heading is scary.

The scary part? People have started coming out of the closet and being more truthful about ZTR's. SCARY!!!

Mickhippy
12-24-2004, 08:05 AM
Over it! :dizzy:

Flex-Deck
12-24-2004, 09:27 AM
but most tractors do not have a commercial grade of deck and will not hold up as well, (reffering to belly mowers) If I were you I would be advertising Bush hogging! Sounds like you are almost their.

I think you are thinking of the Sears Craftsman-MTD type consumer grade tractors:

When you get into the JD Garden tractors (300 - 400 series) you are talking decks every bit as heavy duty as the ZTR's, WB's etc. You are also talking machines that are fast on turns - all foot pedal hydros - We can do J & K turns just as fast as the ZTR. And we do not have to get off our machine and get the pusher out to do that steep ditch or side hill. We just keep on going - Thanks Brad

Richard Martin
12-24-2004, 12:06 PM
This has to be one of the most amazing threads this winter. Simply amazing. I know where this site has been, but where it is heading is scary.

It seems to be regressing beyond the point at which it started. :help:

There are those who would try to convince those of us who are moving forward that we need to back-pedal to a slower, much more complex piece of mowing equipment. I don't care how fast they think the mowers are or how fast they think the mowers will turn. I have been in a competition before that pitted riding mowers against ZTRs and it wasn't even close. The mowers competing were JDs, Scotts (JD knockoffs), MTDs and one that had 4 wheel steering. The ZTRs were Dixie Choppers and Exmarks. It was so lopsided that the riding mower guys complained that they weren't going to win anything and they were right! They weren't even close.

One of the more interesting competitions was cutting around a triangle. There was a triangle built that was 6 feet on each side. The object was to mow around the triangle while keeping the deck as close to the sides of the triangle as possible. If you were more than an inch away from the triangle, left a divot in the ground or hit the triangle you were penalized 5 seconds. The ZTRs completed this competition in about half the time that the riding mowers took.

danslawncare
12-24-2004, 12:06 PM
60" Belly Mower. 22 HP Deisel Engine. Thats what this tractor has on it. Its alright i guess... i just can't see pulling up to a 1/4 acre with this beast, but i guess people do it all the time on a ZTR.

gene gls
12-24-2004, 12:40 PM
Check out this" new design",its not secret info.

www.gizmow.com

Gene

cutnedge
12-24-2004, 12:42 PM
It seems to be regressing beyond the point at which it started. :help:
True.
Maybe if it keeps going in this direction ,I might find myself convinced that the old push reel-mower is the king afterall.

lee b
12-24-2004, 12:47 PM
I think you are thinking of the Sears Craftsman-MTD type consumer grade tractors:

When you get into the JD Garden tractors (300 - 400 series) you are talking decks every bit as heavy duty as the ZTR's, WB's etc. You are also talking machines that are fast on turns - all foot pedal hydros - We can do J & K turns just as fast as the ZTR. And we do not have to get off our machine and get the pusher out to do that steep ditch or side hill. We just keep on going - Thanks Brad

Sorry Flex, but I started with a 335 JD with 54" deck, that deck was not nearly as heavy gauge as the 7-iron deck on my M665. The 335 was a great little tractor but couldn't handle a slope nearly as steep as the M665. Blade tip speed is also much slower on tractor type mowers and on a straight away the z could mow twice as fast to get the same quality of cut, not counting close quarters.

YardPro
12-24-2004, 12:57 PM
i see there are alot of newbies replying to this thread.

i hear alot of people refering to craftsman's etc.

there is no comparison to a utility mower with a belly mower added and the dedicated tractor style mowers.

here is the basic pro of each style.

ZTR-
unarguably more maneuverable
generally more power to weight ratio,
generally less complicated machine.
more compact, taking up less space on trailers, etc.

tractors
steering wheels ( some people like my father could not get past the not having a steerint wheel)
Better if using tow behind componets, as more weight is on the front of the machine.
can be more versatile if they have a PTO and a 3 point hitch.
Unarguably better on slopes.
also takes less time on the machine to become proficent.
to the aussie that said tractors were better on rough stuff. How do you figure that???
they both have no suspension. my hustler has a semi style air ride steat. much better than the two dinky springs that dampen the shock on your JD.
the only difference is you have an articulating front axle. cub cadet's and lesco's have the same thing.

also with most of the ZTR's it's a moot point. my hustler for example has a stiff enough frame that when your front axle would pivot mine would just keep the low tire off the ground. the rear would be the same since both have no suspension.

Soupy
12-24-2004, 05:54 PM
A ZTR can maneuver faster and cut at just as fast or faster speeds (mph).

I can see were Flex's tractor would be able to turn within its cut because he has so much overlap. But I challenge him to take his overlap and put it on a ZTR and see which is faster on his properties. Better yet, just take the overlap off and see if he can cut as fast. My point is that we shouldn't be comparing the deck size to the challenge.

Flex, I have always said that I believe in your deck theory if it fits your properties. I just can't for the life on me figure out why you think that your mower is any comparison to the real world. It isn't your mower that is faster, it is your deck size.

Envy Lawn Service
12-24-2004, 06:59 PM
A ZTR can maneuver faster and cut at just as fast or faster speeds (mph).

I can see were Flex's tractor would be able to turn within its cut because he has so much overlap. But I challenge him to take his overlap and put it on a ZTR and see which is faster on his properties. Better yet, just take the overlap off and see if he can cut as fast. My point is that we shouldn't be comparing the deck size to the challenge.

Flex, I have always said that I believe in your deck theory if it fits your properties. I just can't for the life on me figure out why you think that your mower is any comparison to the real world. It isn't your mower that is faster, it is your deck size.

I can see your point. But watch it now, Flex might challenge you to put your mower where your mouth is.... in SE Iowa.... his X595 w/just belly mower v/s your mower.... out there on his properties, in the great wide open, were ZTR's actually excel the most.

All I can say is you better have a big ZTR that is fast.

Soupy
12-24-2004, 07:26 PM
I can see your point. But watch it now, Flex might challenge you to put your mower where your mouth is.... in SE Iowa.... his X595 w/just belly mower v/s your mower.... out there on his properties, in the great wide open, were ZTR's actually excel the most.

All I can say is you better have a big ZTR that is fast.

Are you saying that his tractor with just the stock belly deck can out cut a ZTR?

Flex has a great idea/invention. But his tractor is not a faster cutting machine without his wide area deck. Put that same deck on a ZTR and see which is faster.

That is my disagreement with him. When someone brings up the Tractor vs ZTR question he jumps in with his unique mower and says that his tractor is faster. But is it really? I would even let him keep his wide deck on his mower if he wants to come and cut the average size property that 90% of all LCO's have. We can do 10 of them that includes loading and unloading.

I also disagree and think a ZTR is better on hills because they have a wider track. At least the piece of junk Hydo JD garden tractor I once had would tip over a lot easier then a ZTR.

I have used small tractors and large tractors and they are not faster. before I got in business my dad owned a Softball complex which had two large outfields to maintain along with several acres of outer turf. We had a JD tractor (can't remember the model) that had a 60" belly mower, a front loader and all guys of goodies for the 3 point hitch. We also had a large Massey Ferguson. I really liked that JD for it's capabilities other then cutting. But if we would have had a ZTR to cut the turf we would have saved a lot of time.

Envy Lawn Service
12-24-2004, 09:08 PM
Are you saying that his tractor with just the stock belly deck can out cut a ZTR?

Well, what ZTR are we talking about? Where are we cutting? Some yes, some no.

Flex has a great idea/invention. But his tractor is not a faster cutting machine without his wide area deck. Put that same deck on a ZTR and see which is faster.

I also agree it's a great invention. His tractor IS a faster cutting machine than some Z's. Yeah put all his stuff on a big fast cutting Z and you could probably mow faster. But in doing so, you'd turn the area into a disaster area trying to swing all that around fast with a ZTR.

That is my disagreement with him. When someone brings up the Tractor vs ZTR question he jumps in with his unique mower and says that his tractor is faster. But is it really? I would even let him keep his wide deck on his mower if he wants to come and cut the average size property that 90% of all LCO's have. We can do 10 of them that includes loading and unloading.

Yeah, without the WAM's it is faster than some ZTR's and slower than some others.

I also disagree and think a ZTR is better on hills because they have a wider track. At least the piece of junk Hydo JD garden tractor I once had would tip over a lot easier then a ZTR.

I wonder what ZTR you run? I say that because most Z's will not even go to the point where lawn tractors feel tippy without going out of control.

I have used small tractors and large tractors and they are not faster. before I got in business my dad owned a Softball complex which had two large outfields to maintain along with several acres of outer turf. We had a JD tractor (can't remember the model) that had a 60" belly mower, a front loader and all guys of goodies for the 3 point hitch. We also had a large Massey Ferguson. I really liked that JD for it's capabilities other then cutting. But if we would have had a ZTR to cut the turf we would have saved a lot of time.

Now you are getting right into the heart of my personal arguement. Softball complexes, other sports turf, pool table lawns, ect. Oh man, there is no question some ZTR's will excel in those areas. Flat, smooth, wide open, clean turf, ect. Big cutter decks, faster straight line speed, ect. But there are a whole lot of turf areas out there that fall way short of those classifications.

Soupy
12-24-2004, 09:53 PM
My Hustler sticks to hillls like glue.

Envy, you have good points and I agree. I'm just saying that the majority of lawns in america will be faster with a ZTR. I think that is what most LCO's want to know when first starting out.

Sure there are mowers of all sorts that will meet certain needs of the market better then others.

Envy, you started out with a tractor and finally bought a ZTR. I see you are in the market for a new mower again. Are you going to buy a tractor, or ZTR?

Happy Holidays to you......

65hoss
12-24-2004, 10:21 PM
I own a Cub Cadet garden tractor. It is not used in the biz. It will NOT I repeat NOT hang hills anywere close to my Z's. Most people's problem with Z's and slopes is they don't know how to really handle them. They think because they used one for a season they are an expert. I was real good with 500 hours of seat time on a Z, I was even better when I had 1000 hours of experience on one. Now, with many more hours than that I can take a Z places you would pucker. I have pics that eXmark has requested I never post or let out. Why? Liability. They don't want all the guys buying and trying this with little or no experience. They have to say 15 degree slopes for Z's. But realistically an experienced operator on a good machine can do some wild things. To you guys still tearing up turf turning, this in itself tells most of us you have not got enough experience yet.

Envy Lawn Service
12-25-2004, 02:20 AM
My Hustler sticks to hillls like glue.

Envy, you have good points and I agree. I'm just saying that the majority of lawns in america will be faster with a ZTR. I think that is what most LCO's want to know when first starting out.

Sure there are mowers of all sorts that will meet certain needs of the market better then others.
Well, my Z does too, else I wouldn't own it because it would be useless to me. But you can't say most of the Z's out there today fall in the same catagory. You also can't honestly say it's never broke loose with you, or that it's never torn turf while turning or hilling. For those reasons, if you'll be honest with yourself and take a hard look at a lot of the prospective jobs you passed right by, you'll realize you'd really prefer not to mow challenging terrain, unless you are extremely hungry for work.

Yeah, depending on where you are, the lawns you service, and what your are comparing to, a ZTR may be faster. But pit a Z against a worthy opponent with a steering wheel, and you start to see those margins shrink rather rapidly. This is because it's not the 'zero turn' part that really makes these mowers productive. Sure it can be handy and it's nice to have. But that part of the mower only shaves off seconds here and there. So in my opinion, it's not worth the trade-off. I'd prefer a quick, sharp usable turning radius, with a steering wheel and power steering.

Yeah, you are dead on about different mowers meeting different needs in different markets. I need only look at the variations in my own block of business to see just how true that is. If there is one thing I see a lot of day to day, it's certainly variation. But being honest about previous statements, I can certainly identify a new trend that has developed over the past few years. I seem to be adjusting my market to meet the needs of my mower. I've realized I've subconciously started to avoid certain opportunities based on my personal preferences of what terrain I would 'rather' mow.

In other words, although my mower is very capable, and does some amazing stuff, I'm not blind to the fact that it cannot be trusted to do it reliably, week in-week out without the occasional surprise. Unlike a lot of people here, I'm not afraid to say that either, and speak the 'unspeakable truth' about the matter. Why? Because I know dang well I've put my mowers in places where most mowers can only dream of going, or where most operators in their right mind wouldn't even attempt. Looking back I've done some insane stuff, risking life and limb to mow some places with a Z because I didn't want to take time to get the other mower off the trailer, or better yet didn't even want to load out with it that day for whatever reason..... and to beat all, took time to stop and take pictures to prove it. Stupid.....

The rest I'll get to in a bit................

Soupy
12-25-2004, 02:40 AM
We don't have a lot of huge hills. But some hills that I do do, I would not try with a garden tractor. I don't tear turf on hills because I start at the bottom going across the hill and turning into it. I don't even see how you could turn on a hill with a garden tractor.

You are correct that we do pass on work that don't fit our mowers needs. Are you saying that we should own every type of mower so we don't have to pass on jobs? I never said the ZTR is the do it all mower. I said it out performs the garden tractor on the average lawn.

I know you do a lot of hills. So why are you shopping for another ZTR. I'm not trying to argue with you (because I like you :) ), but why do you say one thing, but do another? If the tractor was better then you would be using it, correct?

I have a feeling that we are both hard headed and don't like to lose a debate. So please don't take my replies the wrong way.

Soupy
12-25-2004, 02:41 AM
I own a Cub Cadet garden tractor. It is not used in the biz. It will NOT I repeat NOT hang hills anywere close to my Z's. Most people's problem with Z's and slopes is they don't know how to really handle them. They think because they used one for a season they are an expert. I was real good with 500 hours of seat time on a Z, I was even better when I had 1000 hours of experience on one. Now, with many more hours than that I can take a Z places you would pucker. I have pics that eXmark has requested I never post or let out. Why? Liability. They don't want all the guys buying and trying this with little or no experience. They have to say 15 degree slopes for Z's. But realistically an experienced operator on a good machine can do some wild things. To you guys still tearing up turf turning, this in itself tells most of us you have not got enough experience yet.

Well said!

Envy Lawn Service
12-25-2004, 03:14 AM
Envy, you started out with a tractor and finally bought a ZTR. I see you are in the market for a new mower again. Are you going to buy a tractor, or ZTR?

Happy Holidays to you......
:blush: Actually, I started out with a 21" push. I've been from a 21" push to a compact tractor, everything in between and then back to a 21" push again when I decided to piddle around in lawn care again. So from then until after I became a member here in 2002, I only used various 21's, L&G tractors and compact tractors. But I had already been out there trying out zero turns with much dissatisfaction and had ruled out everything I had been on, mostly due to laughable hill performance.

But after much research, talking to few local owners and much yapping on green industry forums, I decided to demo-demo-demo with the promises I would be pleased with this brand or that brand. Most of those experiences were laughable too and left me with the belief that the majority of LCO's in other area's don't know what hills are.... just like how I laugh at my out of state family when they come visit for being amazed at the sight of what are 'mountains' to them. Just little rolling hills along the way to the mountain tour I take them on. What a hoot!!!

Anyways, I kept at it and finally 2003 was the year of the Z for me. So yeah, I finally made the leap and have been running the piss out of them for 2 years now.

I also like to keep up and stay abreast of what's available out there. I like to be ready, just in case a major shift takes place suddenly and I need to make a quick decision in order to meet demands. In other words I don't want to get caught with my pants down, shooting from the hip on a purchase to fill the need on short notice. So I am always sorta semi~ in the market for a new mower. Matter of fact, I just picked up another new Z in October. Then to top that off, I put another new one on hold just a month later at GIE. But I ended up backing out on that one for the time being.

As far as my next purchase goes, ZTR or tractor, only time will tell. I've got some soul searching to do, and I'd prefer to wait for a better preview of the upcoming season. But my hunch is a tractor style, but certainly not anything larger than a Kubota BX2230 or New Holland TC24 class. I seriously doubt it will be that big. I like smaller, compact setups that don't instill fear or intimidate.

Right now, I'm 'tuned in' on the unit I can't talk about just yet, which is smaller and weighs in lighter. But just as anything else, it has to prove itself worthy. I'll cut it no slack. So we shall see.

Soupy
12-25-2004, 03:28 AM
Like Hoss said, My ZTR out handles a garden tractor on hills. I don't know what kind of hills you do so I won't argue with you there. I guess you are in a different situation then most and maybe a tractor is what you need.

I just don't want guys that have normal circumstances to think that the garden tractor is better or even comparable. Who are we joking, the majority wouldn't be using them if they were not better.

Well, I hear Santa on the roof, so I better go and pretend I am sleeping. Merry Xmas everyone!

Envy Lawn Service
12-25-2004, 04:35 AM
We don't have a lot of huge hills. But some hills that I do do, I would not try with a garden tractor. I don't tear turf on hills because I start at the bottom going across the hill and turning into it. I don't even see how you could turn on a hill with a garden tractor.

You are correct that we do pass on work that don't fit our mowers needs. Are you saying that we should own every type of mower so we don't have to pass on jobs? I never said the ZTR is the do it all mower. I said it out performs the garden tractor on the average lawn.

I know you do a lot of hills. So why are you shopping for another ZTR. I'm not trying to argue with you (because I like you :) ), but why do you say one thing, but do another? If the tractor was better then you would be using it, correct?

I have a feeling that we are both hard headed and don't like to lose a debate. So please don't take my replies the wrong way.
First, let me say, you are not offending me at all with your replies. To me this is just good honest conversation/debate that needs to go on between us LCO's. I just personally think there is a lot of mower hype, both here where we are trying to confirm decisions with the help of our piers, and out there where the business transactions take place.

To me, it just seems there is this unspoken list of things you don't dare talk about or openly admit here. Most of these type discussions become quite the heated debate, where the truth ends up getting streched a bit, others start to jump on that bandwagon rather than dare disagree, and in the end, the guy who has something to say just ends up shutting up. Nobody wins and the issue never gets honestly addressed.

Now getting back into the discussion, I know now that we are talking about two totally different ball games here. Here's what I mean.... If you can a Z, start at the bottom and mow side to side every week without tearing turf somewhere along the way or just literally griding/scuffing it in your repeated tire tracks.... then to me, that ain't steep.

On what I call steep, eventually a combination of changing conditions and gravity will eventually get the best of you. Either it will break loose and take a nose dive one day as you are making your side to side passes. Or better yet, you pull up one week, take a look and realize the mower had a little sidewinding action going on the week before. You can see where the side slip occured and scuffed the turf up along where your tires run.

I've mowed stuff that so steep or a combination of steep and uneven where you could just flat out forget mowing it side to side. Ain't gonna happen! And once you start up it, you throw the often touted 'back down' method out the window. In fact you're praying it makes it to the top in smooth motion because it feels like one false shift and the mower is coming over on top of you.

I'm drifting way off into the extremes here. But to me that's steep. The point is, we have different opinions about what is steep. The question I pose to you is this... have you ever been on a place steep enough for the surprise slip? Even if you regained control? The point is, where the challenge begins for a ZTR, the L&G tractor is still cruising with ease.


Now as for my personal choices and buying decisions, I guess an explaination is in order.... To begin with, the thing is I have a love/hate relationship with Z's. There are a TON of things I do like about them. I love the mowers for the most part. I just don't care for the ride or a few personal comfort issues and I HATE the zero turn part. Don't get me wrong, it's nice, it comes in handy and it's literally such a breeze physically to operate compared to manual steering. What I hate about it is that I find more often than not, it's more of a problem to overcome than a benefit. I just feel the trade-off out weighs the benefit. I'll list a few examples sometime later on...

So love and fear keep me coming back for more. I love the heavy duty construction and the durability. The ease of maintenace design is a masterpiece. I love the speed when I find the rare oasis where I am able to take advantage of it. I love the large fuel capacity and I really really like the quality of cut.

But mostly, I keep going back out of fear. See, in the last two years, since going to Z's, I have battled relentless weather conditions that I have never had any previous experience with. Brutal rainy weather. I can remember the last time I raised dust. In fact I don't think I ever have on a ZTR. But the point is, I'm getting flat out awesome wet weather performance out of them. I'm also a dedicated mulcher and I'm amazed at what I can go out and do in the rain. The end result is amazing. I'm out mowing between rain showers while other guys I see are sitting at home losing time and going out the next day to make a mess.

So as much as I hate the quirks of, I'm afraid to ponder where I might be today without them. I could have possibly went belly-up by now. I don't know, never dealt with any extended periods of wet weather like this. Fear of the unknown is a rather powerful motivator....

Travis Followell
12-25-2004, 07:39 AM
Envy, if I understand correctly you have 2 ztr's. I'm just curious as to what they are. Gravely's?

YardPro
12-25-2004, 09:37 AM
soupy
envy is right about the hills. there is NO debatine the tractor' superior performance on slopes.

we have a large commercial that has some serious slopes. when the ztr lets go it's gone, and regaining control is almost impossible. also Ztr's have to go up slopes becuase the rear wheels not only drive them , but steer them as well.
when the front of the machine points downhill, the weight is shifted from the rear wheels to the font wheels, resulting in not only a loss of drive, but steering as well.

this is analagous to why all ultra high performance sports cars are rear wheel drive

Envy Lawn Service
12-26-2004, 12:30 AM
Envy, if I understand correctly you have 2 ztr's. I'm just curious as to what they are. Gravely's?

No, not Gravely.... check your PM's.

Soupy
12-26-2004, 02:28 AM
I had a lot of the problems (that were discussed about ZTR's and hills) with Dixie Chopper. But my Hustler will go down a hill and not lose control were my Dixie Chopper would. I can back up a small hill that my DC couldn't dream of doing. The Dixie would lose control easy and totally sucked on hills. I could do the side to side thing to a degree, but up and down was out of the question. So yes different ZTR's have different capabilities. I hated to do hills before I got a Hustler but with the brake system on a Hustler you can stop on a hill unless it is to the point that the tire will slide because of gravity. But in this situation any tire would slide. remember that I am not talking about traction loss, I'm talking gravity. I start to slide off the seat way before my Hustler will lose control. I have to compensate with the down hill side and over steer that side. If you know how to drive a ZTR you should not be loseing control of the front wheels unless you are way over doing it and at this point you wouldn't be sitting on the seat.

The question is, "which mower is overall better?" I don't believe for a second that everyone keeps buying ZTR's because they were talked into hype. I believe that business owners make decisions on what is best for their business. The majority of LCO's have chosen the ZTR to be better then a L&g tractor. I'm not saying that the tractor might not work better for some, but for the majority, it doesn't. It's fact.

Envy, you say that the ZTR and the tractor have even benefits that have you using a ZTR. I don't agree with some of your dislikes, but even with them, you still choose the ZTR. Lets agree (for argument sake) and say that the tractor is better for mountain hills. Is the majority of land made of mountains? If it is better (for extreme situation, like your's) and you still choose to use a ZTR. Whats that say about the debate. Remember that the majority of land mass is not mountains.

Yes I have loss control on a hill and yes I can't cut mountains. I don't see how a tractor with smaller wheel base and front wheel drive is going to help. You need a wider area to turn which will create more work on a hill. I don't know, but you should really demo a Hustler.

For situations that a ZTR don't work, I have a walk behind to use. So yes it is good to have more then one type of mower to use. If a tractor works for you that is fine. But we are talking which mower is better for LCO's and the ZTR is the better choice. We are not talking about which mower is the best mower in the world. We are not talking about a ZTR being the best for every job.

How long have you guys (the ones saying a tractor is better) been using ZTR's? I agree with Hoss (which has more experience then most of us) that maybe not everyone has figured out the best technique to drive a ZTR.


Just for the record, I agree that not all ZTR's are good on hills and none of them are good on mountains.

Mickhippy
12-26-2004, 02:48 AM
to the aussie that said tractors were better on rough stuff. How do you figure that???
they both have no suspension. my hustler has a semi style air ride steat. much better than the two dinky springs that dampen the shock on your JD.
the only difference is you have an articulating front axle. cub cadet's and lesco's have the same thing.

I'm sure you are reffering (I think you should re read my post!) to me so here goes...

I never said tractors are better than ZTRs on rough ground! What I said was that a ZTR would only go as fast as my tractor across rough ground. Not faster, not slower but the same. I was talking about some of the stuff I mow! A ZTR could travel/cut faster for sure on flat nice ground (thats not MY point) but you would be getting air born so often you would either destroy ya mower or hurt yourself on the stuff I'm thinking! I'm talking horse paddocks, vacant blocks etc that have never been graded/ leveled... ever!

And just a little more info for ya mate, I have the full suspension (semi type) seat. Not the 2 little springs your talking about!

A ZTR would probably be better for side to side movment because of the lower sitting position and I'll grant that but not all ZTRs a lowr C of G!

I also said that I want a ZTR because of there "Commercial" build or words to the effect!

Soupy
12-26-2004, 02:57 AM
Yes I have loss control on a hill and yes I can't cut mountains. I don't see how a tractor with smaller wheel base and front wheel drive is going to help. You need a wider area to turn which will create more work on a hill. I don't know, but you should really demo a Hustler.

I meant to say a tractor with front wheel steering :)

Envy Lawn Service
12-26-2004, 03:32 AM
I'll side with you on that Mchippy. I have properties where any speed advantage available to me is useless. I mean some of them look smooth as glass from the street. But looking and feeling are two different things. Washboard lawns are what I call them.... and they will beat the crap out of you on a ZTR too. I cut these lawns no faster on a ZTR either.

I know there are mowers out there that ride much better than mine though....

Mickhippy
12-26-2004, 03:39 AM
Thanks Envy, heres a pic of what you/ I are talking about..

Looks smooth dont it......... I can tell you honestly.... It really aint!

Not to mention the horse cr@p all over the joint!

Soupy
12-26-2004, 04:12 AM
I'm sure you are reffering (I think you should re read my post!) to me so here goes...

I never said tractors are better than ZTRs on rough ground! What I said was that a ZTR would only go as fast as my tractor across rough ground. Not faster, not slower but the same. I was talking about some of the stuff I mow! A ZTR could travel/cut faster for sure on flat nice ground (thats not MY point) but you would be getting air born so often you would either destroy ya mower or hurt yourself on the stuff I'm thinking! I'm talking horse paddocks, vacant blocks etc that have never been graded/ leveled... ever!

And just a little more info for ya mate, I have the full suspension (semi type) seat. Not the 2 little springs your talking about!

A ZTR would probably be better for side to side movment because of the lower sitting position and I'll grant that but not all ZTRs a lowr C of G!

I also said that I want a ZTR because of there "Commercial" build or words to the effect!

Have you ever driven a ZTR? How many hours have you logged on one? I'm not going to get into the whole travel speed thing (that's another thread). But just because a mower has 4 wheels doesn't mean that it will ride as smooth as all mowers with 4 wheels. Wheel track does have something to do with it.

This was a good debate and nobody can win it, so I will only continue if asked. Anyway I asked Santa last night and he said even he demoed all the sleighs before settling for the one he has. He said that some handled better, and some were faster. But his will hold a roof and travel fast. :)

Richard Martin
12-26-2004, 06:40 AM
I never said tractors are better than ZTRs on rough ground! What I said was that a ZTR would only go as fast as my tractor across rough ground. Not faster, not slower but the same. I was talking about some of the stuff I mow! A ZTR could travel/cut faster for sure on flat nice ground (thats not MY point) but you would be getting air born so often you would either destroy ya mower or hurt yourself on the stuff I'm thinking! I'm talking horse paddocks, vacant blocks etc that have never been graded/ leveled... ever!

Sometimes I think things over before I post and I've thought this over.

If all things are identical then yes, a riding mower can match speed with a ZTR in-so-far as ride is considered. But...

I have 2 ZTRs and they are Dixie Choppers. One is a 2001 WX2500 60" cut and the other is a 2003 XT2800 60" cut. Believe it or not I can go across rough ground faster with the newer mower than the older mower. The frames and seats are identical and neither has any sort of suspension.

Can you tell me why the newer mower can handle rough ground faster?















Okay, time's up.

The newer mower can go faster because it has larger front tires. 15" vs. 13" tires.

There is a whole lot more than just hp and wheel motors that go into giving a ZTR superior ground speed. The entire mower has and is evolving towards ever faster and more efficient mowing. They are not multipurpose machine like the heavier duty (compared to the regular Home Depot Special riding tractors) riding mowers. When the engineering team at Hustler, Exmark or Dixie Chopper sits down for a session they don't have to split their resources among as many sub-systems as a John Deere, Simplicity or Gravely riding mower engineer does. They say "What can we do to make our machine handle better, cut faster or last longer". They don't have to worry about things like PTOs, supplementary hydro systems and 3 point hitches.

Mickhippy
12-26-2004, 08:46 AM
Have you ever driven a ZTR? How many hours have you logged on one? I'm not going to get into the whole travel speed thing (that's another thread). But just because a mower has 4 wheels doesn't mean that it will ride as smooth as all mowers with 4 wheels. Wheel track does have something to do with it.

This was a good debate and nobody can win it, so I will only continue if asked. Anyway I asked Santa last night and he said even he demoed all the sleighs before settling for the one he has. He said that some handled better, and some were faster. But his will hold a roof and travel fast. :)



Only had a quick go around my yard on one (other than a demo on a Walker)! This really is irrelevant to my argument that a Z could mow some of the properties I do faster. Like I said, there is NO WAY you would run across them (like that pic above) at full speed! I'll stand by that and you can disagree with me all you like!

My go on the Z.. Found it wouldn't back up a relatively mellow slope without spinning the wheels. (operator error probably) To be fair, even my old 2wd tractors were similar for that and also letting go when coming down hills. (Have you tried the new Xseries or the Kubota BX or similar tractors in the last 2 yrs?)

But on the other hand, this X595 can mow at 8.5mph (mow at full speed next to never though), is similar in dimensions to a 54" Z, has 24hp diesel, suspension seat, 12v outlet to run sprayers/warning lights etc, can put a number of attachments on, is shaft drive to the deck, deck easily removed in only a few minutes without tools, low maintenance, and can drive up and down/ back up and down "safely" practically any slope you can throw at it.

Now to me, that sounds like a pretty good all rounder!
Is it prefect? NO! Is it "Commercial?" NO! Never said it was! Is it used commercially? Yes it is! Have I had any problems in 350hr? (other than hitting objects that could arguably damage any mower) NO!

I've seen heaps of pics on here of lawns you lot do. There nothing like what we have to mow over here. People/builders just dont spend the money on prep work for the lawns. Honestly, I think most of you would freak if you saw some of the stuff we have to mow! Find an old cow paddock, build a house on it and ya done! Come in to mow and there could be spoon drains, cow tracks, mud holes, termite/white ant mounds, holes, logs, stumps, branches, rocks(for sure), wire etc etc.

I'll say it again and for the last time! I want a ZTR, probably a Hustler SuperZ or a Scag TT but at $20000+, not for a while! I think they would be good for some of the properties I do these days.

Its late, I'm tired and ranting and over it!

Merry Xmas!

Smalltimer1
12-26-2004, 10:33 AM
What or why would you be using any kind of finish mower/deck in an area that needs resurrected? If you have a tractor and that is what the thread was about you should have a bush hog hung off the back of the 3 point on the small compact tractors. No a tractor with a belly mower will not give the same quility of cut. If they would why would anyone buy a z? you can do so much more with a tractor but somethings going to be lacking. In the case of a Z compared to a compact tractor you will sacrafice quility and speed of cut when obsticles are to be mowed around.

Mac


The resurrection job was a lady's yard which had not been mowed in over 5 years. Grass was well past knee high. My JD garden tractor made quick work of it, leaving a much better cut than any ZTR would have. Even my old Simplicity Regent would cut better than most ZTR's.

Have you even driven a X-series tractor with all wheel steering???? It will make you rethink everything you've said.

65hoss
12-26-2004, 11:18 AM
The resurrection job was a lady's yard which had not been mowed in over 5 years. Grass was well past knee high. My JD garden tractor made quick work of it, leaving a much better cut than any ZTR would have. Even my old Simplicity Regent would cut better than most ZTR's.

Have you even driven a X-series tractor with all wheel steering???? It will make you rethink everything you've said.

:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:

Richard Martin
12-26-2004, 01:13 PM
The resurrection job was a lady's yard which had not been mowed in over 5 years. Grass was well past knee high. My JD garden tractor made quick work of it, leaving a much better cut than any ZTR would have. Even my old Simplicity Regent would cut better than most ZTR's.

Puh-leaze!

It's a good thing I have my hip boots on because it's getting deep in here now.

YardPro
12-26-2004, 02:38 PM
mickhippy

i thought you said that the tractor stye rode better on rough ground. guess i misunderstood what you were talking about.

smalltimer.
you don't know what the heck you're talking about.

Mickhippy
12-26-2004, 06:41 PM
No worries Yardpro. Had been drinking :dizzy: a bit last week and wouldnt be the first time I was misunderstood! :rolleyes:

All I was basically trying to say is that any speed advantage you might have on a Z would be lost on rough ground!

Glad we got that sorted! :D

Jimmy Bell
12-26-2004, 10:28 PM
I traded a Deere GT235, 54" deck with 18 HP B&S for a Toro Z Master, 52" deck and 25 Kohler. Cutting same yards, I took a hour off the time it used to take. I like the noise and heat to be behind me. Only down side is that 25 Kohler is a bit thirsty!

Soupy
12-26-2004, 10:43 PM
I traded a Deere GT235, 54" deck with 18 HP B&S for a Toro Z Master, 52" deck and 25 Kohler. Cutting same yards, I took a hour off the time it used to take. I like the noise and heat to be behind me. Only down side is that 25 Kohler is a bit thirsty!

Is that an hour per day? How many are you doing? What size lawns? and How many hours are you working in a day?

I only ask because some times you have to paint the whole picture before someone will figure out what it is.

Smalltimer1
12-27-2004, 01:16 AM
Puh-leaze!

It's a good thing I have my hip boots on because it's getting deep in here now.


I know I'm old fashioned, but I believe in a good garden tractor over a ZTR anyday, because you can not only mow, but plow, snowplow, till, sweep, blow, spray, fertilize, and more, without having to spend an extra $20,000+ for extra unneccessary equipment.

Smalltimer1
12-27-2004, 01:16 AM
smalltimer.
you don't know what the heck you're talking about.

I know exactly what I'm talking about, I've done it this way for 5+ years, and it hasn't failed me yet.

easycareacres
12-27-2004, 03:30 AM
I feel we all know whats best for us here, My zero turns to me are something I canot ever be with out. My tractor is also another in the right place. they do me good. All our conditions vary and types of mowing where one can be better than another. No way id put a tractor in any of my parks with the millions of square corners around the trees.
No way id put my zero turns in the reall rough as those big wheels soak many back shaking bumps also.

Richard Martin
12-27-2004, 03:32 AM
I know I'm old fashioned, but I believe in a good garden tractor over a ZTR anyday,

That's okay. One day someone will come along and offer you an incredible deal on a ZTR and you may buy it. After using it for a couple of weeks you will say to yourself "I should have bought one of these long ago". You will keep your garden tractor but will find yourself using it where it was intended, in the garden.

easycareacres
12-27-2004, 03:39 AM
g'day richard merry xmas hows things over there ? snow

Flex-Deck
12-27-2004, 05:55 PM
A ZTR can maneuver faster and cut at just as fast or faster speeds (mph).

I can see were Flex's tractor would be able to turn within its cut because he has so much overlap. But I challenge him to take his overlap and put it on a ZTR and see which is faster on his properties. Better yet, just take the overlap off and see if he can cut as fast. My point is that we shouldn't be comparing the deck size to the challenge.

Flex, I have always said that I believe in your deck theory if it fits your properties. I just can't for the life on me figure out why you think that your mower is any comparison to the real world. It isn't your mower that is faster, it is your deck size.

Thanks Soupy - I could not have said it better. Thanks Brad

Envy Lawn Service
12-27-2004, 10:13 PM
soupy
envy is right about the hills. there is NO debatine the tractor' superior performance on slopes.

we have a large commercial that has some serious slopes. when the ztr lets go it's gone, and regaining control is almost impossible. also Ztr's have to go up slopes becuase the rear wheels not only drive them , but steer them as well.
when the front of the machine points downhill, the weight is shifted from the rear wheels to the font wheels, resulting in not only a loss of drive, but steering as well.

this is analagous to why all ultra high performance sports cars are rear wheel drive
YardPro,

Good post and you bring up some good points. Your description is very good of what happens when the terrain gets the best of a ZTR. It goes where it wants. I've learned it's best to just try to drive into it to minimize damage. This is why you can't safely mow areas that have no "stop zone" area. AKA slopes that end at retaining walls, structures, fences, forests, streets, ditchlines, bodies of water, ect....

Now, while you are on the subject of downhill weight shift, let me just say, for me this is one of the biggest PITA's. Uphill ZTR's are great. But downhill and reverse up, totally opposite. For example a property with a two-way slope. In other words the lawn slopes from the house to a deep ditchline at the street, but also slopes from the left to right, ending at a fence or woods line. Although the slope is very workable and safe you are forced to stop on a slope, front end pointed downhill. Sometimes the mower won't turn. It won't loop turn without the twist mark/drag mark/divot, it won't do the little 90 degree zero turn because the one tire has no traction in reverse. So you have to reverse both tires the same speed in order to get it moving, then attempt again. ERRR!!!

Envy Lawn Service
12-27-2004, 10:28 PM
Sometimes I think things over before I post and I've thought this over.

If all things are identical then yes, a riding mower can match speed with a ZTR in-so-far as ride is considered. But...

I have 2 ZTRs and they are Dixie Choppers. One is a 2001 WX2500 60" cut and the other is a 2003 XT2800 60" cut. Believe it or not I can go across rough ground faster with the newer mower than the older mower. The frames and seats are identical and neither has any sort of suspension.

Can you tell me why the newer mower can handle rough ground faster?


Okay, time's up.

The newer mower can go faster because it has larger front tires. 15" vs. 13" tires.

There is a whole lot more than just hp and wheel motors that go into giving a ZTR superior ground speed. The entire mower has and is evolving towards ever faster and more efficient mowing. They are not multipurpose machine like the heavier duty (compared to the regular Home Depot Special riding tractors) riding mowers. When the engineering team at Hustler, Exmark or Dixie Chopper sits down for a session they don't have to split their resources among as many sub-systems as a John Deere, Simplicity or Gravely riding mower engineer does. They say "What can we do to make our machine handle better, cut faster or last longer". They don't have to worry about things like PTOs, supplementary hydro systems and 3 point hitches.

Very good observation about the tires. I think Gravely is the only other ZTR with 15" front tires. In contrast, even the "Home Depot Specials" have 15" tires out front, while the X595 like Mickhippy and FlexDeck have wear 18" fronts and 26" rears. Most ZTR's have 11"-13" fronts and 20"-24" rears.

You also have a very good dead-on point about the purpose built nature of the ZTR. I just happen to think they should work harder on tuning in the handling. I realize it would still have limits, but improvements could be made I think.

Soupy
12-27-2004, 11:07 PM
You guys are talking some serious hills. Lets face it, they both suck for that type of work. So why is it even a debate.

Like someone else said. If you can not cut a hill with a ZTR that your garden tractor will. Then maybe you are not the experience Operators that you think you are. Tractors flip, ZTR's slide. You tell me which is safer?

I have seen guys that have been using ZTR's for 5 years and still don't know the proper way to drive them.

I know that situations are different and maybe I'm not thinking outside the box. Maybe it all has to do with soil hardness etc. maybe we are all right and in my area a ZTR will go were no man has gone before. Maybe the same is true in your area for the garden tractor.

What are your competition using for these extreme applications?

Envy, I just think that you are seriously misleading the new guys that will truly benefit by making the leap and getting a ZTR. To say that we are all hiding the truth and that we only use them because they are the hip mower to own is wrong. There is no conspiracy or some unspoken truth about the ZTR. On top of all that your mower of choice has been a ZTR :dizzy:

I can trump both mowers and say that the Walk-behind is better on hills. But that is another thread :)

easycareacres
12-28-2004, 01:34 AM
yes I feel threads thrashed a bit. but nice to see others views, get a zero turn home for beers early. lol

Soupy
12-28-2004, 03:14 AM
I know, I know we need to end this. But I have to say something about ZTR's losing control on slopes.

I agree that it is dangerous to mow steep hills were there is no stopping point. I will also admit that some ZTR's suck going down a very steep hill. My Dixie Chopper sucked when going down steep hills. My Hustler has no problem. The loss of control is from going to fast to begin with. If you take it slow (at least with Hustler) then you can stop them suckers in their tracks. The only time I can not stop on a hill is if gravity is dragging it down. But anything on wheels are going down at this point. If I start down a hill and realize that I misjudged it, then I stop the mower and gently pull back on one side (it's important that you start in reverse) and then as it starts to turn then you very gently let the other wheel start to slowly turn in neutral. then you can continue up hill in an angle to safety. Now if you go real fast and try to throw it in reverse then you will slide, but an experience operator does not do this. Also what is this lose of control of the front tires? I have never loss control of the front tires. You keep the front straight by over steering one side. It is very easy. If the hill is so steep you can not do this, then you are on a mountain and shouldn't be there to begin with. I have noticed on very large hills that I no longer attempt is that if I did start to slide sideways that the back tires slid down and kept the front tires pointing up, which then lets you drive out of the slide an up the hill to safety.


It is all in what you are trying to do. I refuse to mow hills, just like I refuse to mow other types of PITA properties. If you live in an area with all hills, then get a Walk Behind (but again, this is another thread :) ) Remember Safety First!

I forgot to add, that my hill examples are of ones that I might accidental misjudge. I most cases I know the limits and a slight misjudge does not get me out of control. I am not saying a less experience operator won't get on a mountain and lose control.

Soupy
12-28-2004, 04:44 AM
Take a look at this thread http://lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=87093 Looks like some home owners have cut their time mowing in half using a ZTR verses a garden tractor.

This has nothing to do with hills :)

Envy Lawn Service
12-28-2004, 10:22 PM
You guys are talking some serious hills. Lets face it, they both suck for that type of work. So why is it even a debate.

Yep, some serious hills. Some ZTR's do handle pretty well. But on both sides of the fence, all are not created equally. It's just that overall, a mower with a steering wheel has a few less wars to wage on slopes so long as traction is good and the center of gravity is low. In the end steering wheels equate to more predictable, trustworthy performance on slopes. Why debate? It's simple, because I think for the money we pay for mowers, more can be done on both sides of the fence to 'better' the equipment we use. ZTR's like the Hustler ATZ and the Gizmow mentioned earlier are baby steps in the right direction. So is what's new for '05 in the tractor world. All in all, I'd just like to see a bit more R&D.

Like someone else said. If you can not cut a hill with a ZTR that your garden tractor will. Then maybe you are not the experience Operators that you think you are. Tractors flip, ZTR's slide. You tell me which is safer?

I have seen guys that have been using ZTR's for 5 years and still don't know the proper way to drive them.

Well, all in all, never flipped a tractor or lawn tractor. Came close a time or two over the course of many years. On the other hand, I can't count the number of times I've slipped on a Z in mearly 2 years. Z's are way harder to turn over, I'll give them that. I'd venture to say 99% of Z rollovers happen during a runaway situation.

Talk about operator error all you like. The fact is I've used ZTR's for 2 years now and very likely have already logged more challenging slope time than many of you will in 5 years. Plus, ZTR operation is painfully simple. It's like falling off a log compared to operating a lot of equipment.

I know that situations are different and maybe I'm not thinking outside the box. Maybe it all has to do with soil hardness etc. maybe we are all right and in my area a ZTR will go were no man has gone before. Maybe the same is true in your area for the garden tractor.

You know, I never thought of the soil issue. Could be a factor. I do notice variation dependent on soil type. It's sorta like Goldielock's and the Three Bear's beds. The ZTR and tires seem to prefer a certain firmness and beyond that it's too hard or too soft.

What are your competition using for these extreme applications?

Honestly, mowers with steering wheels. Rather it be a lawn tractor, compact tractor, or front mower. ZTR's are seen here more often than they were a year or two ago. But they are still not that popular around this area.

Envy, I just think that you are seriously misleading the new guys that will truly benefit by making the leap and getting a ZTR. To say that we are all hiding the truth and that we only use them because they are the hip mower to own is wrong. There is no conspiracy or some unspoken truth about the ZTR. On top of all that your mower of choice has been a ZTR :dizzy:

Well, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm not offended by you in the least. I'm glad you have hung around to offer an alternating view. You are right, many guys may benefit by making the 'leap' and in more ways than one. I never said they didn't have some beneficial qualities and I never said they were totally not any more productive. Just depends on the terrain you cut most. However, there is an 'unspoken truth' or there was before I got started. There is a lot of stuff you don't dare say or is just left unsaid here. The point is, everything has good and bad qualities. It's just that talk about ZTR's is a little one sided. Only the good about ZTR's ever gets spoken.

I can trump both mowers and say that the Walk-behind is better on hills. But that is another thread :)

Oh yeah, don't want to venture too far into that discussion. We would be talking spiked shoes, hell-on ankles, and WB's are still zero turns :p

Soupy
12-28-2004, 10:46 PM
Envy, Maybe some day they will be able to make a mower that does it all. But for now, we need to buy what is good for our situations. I wish you luck in finding your's.

I do beleive you have more experience on hills then I do. I bet you have more experience then most. We just have the normal everyday hills here. I live in farm country.

I have one question for you. Is your rider Hydro or gear driven?

Envy Lawn Service
12-28-2004, 11:11 PM
I know, I know we need to end this. But I have to say something about ZTR's losing control on slopes.

I agree that it is dangerous to mow steep hills were there is no stopping point. I will also admit that some ZTR's suck going down a very steep hill. My Dixie Chopper sucked when going down steep hills. My Hustler has no problem. The loss of control is from going to fast to begin with. If you take it slow (at least with Hustler) then you can stop them suckers in their tracks. The only time I can not stop on a hill is if gravity is dragging it down. But anything on wheels are going down at this point. If I start down a hill and realize that I misjudged it, then I stop the mower and gently pull back on one side (it's important that you start in reverse) and then as it starts to turn then you very gently let the other wheel start to slowly turn in neutral. then you can continue up hill in an angle to safety. Now if you go real fast and try to throw it in reverse then you will slide, but an experience operator does not do this. Also what is this lose of control of the front tires? I have never loss control of the front tires. You keep the front straight by over steering one side. It is very easy. If the hill is so steep you can not do this, then you are on a mountain and shouldn't be there to begin with. I have noticed on very large hills that I no longer attempt is that if I did start to slide sideways that the back tires slid down and kept the front tires pointing up, which then lets you drive out of the slide an up the hill to safety.

It is all in what you are trying to do. I refuse to mow hills, just like I refuse to mow other types of PITA properties. If you live in an area with all hills, then get a Walk Behind (but again, this is another thread :) ) Remember Safety First!

I forgot to add, that my hill examples are of ones that I might accidental misjudge. I most cases I know the limits and a slight misjudge does not get me out of control. I am not saying a less experience operator won't get on a mountain and lose control.

Soupy,

MOST EXCELLENT POST!!!! I've been waiting for someone else to give examples. I know we have already covered the contrast in difference of slopes. But I really have to respond here... so here goes in relation to the bold text.

In some cases I'm talking going down stuff where you must start out just fast enough to have the drive engaged and rolling forward. There is NO stopping. Matter of fact, it is critical to insure the tires continue to roll. On your way down you hope gravity does not overcome your travleing speed and traction. IF it does, you start to slide in spite of your wheels rolling. Gravity attempts to move the machine faster than the wheel speed and if that overcomes traction, your sled ride begins.

I actually cut places where I have to start out slow like this. "Feel" when the mower is about to break and ever gently continue to increase forward speed just enough to avoid the beginning of a skid. Sometime you can sense and out run the skid safely. Other times you can do neither.

As far as loss of control of the front, I'm talking about loss of control of direction. Nose dive. IN other words you are over steering the lower tire and the upper tire is free wheeling or gently braking to keep the front end up and tracking forward on across the hill. Eventually you reach the point where the rear tires can no longer defeat gravity and leverage. A tire slips, the front turns downhill, and the mower is a runaway!

I have also experienced the side-slide or what I call 'crabing'...
I don't get that much, but man! Now that is un-nerving for me. Two words! Pucker Factor! It's scary for me because I realize a quick side-slip and a solid catch on the slopes I'm talking about could turn me over sideways easily and fast. But I prefer it somewhat over the nose dive because you it's not usually sudden, thank god! You can use judgement and turn up hill.

Soupy
12-28-2004, 11:41 PM
Yea but the nose dive should not happen. The rear tire slips making the back slide down, not the front. On a really steep hill I would cut at a very slight angle were the front is pointing up which would help even more if you think slipping is most likely to happen.

Man, we hijacked this thread big time. Sorry guys.

lawn king
12-29-2004, 05:46 AM
Buy any b series kubota tractor and you will be golden! Try to install a loader or tiller on a ZTR !

Richard Martin
12-29-2004, 06:00 AM
Buy any b series kubota tractor and you will be golden! Try to install a loader or tiller on a ZTR !

You are going to try to tell me that you would use a Kubota B series as a commercial lawnmower? Good luck with that.

lawn king
12-29-2004, 07:47 AM
You are going to try to tell me that you would use a Kubota B series as a commercial lawnmower? Good luck with that.
The small b series can be used for comm. mowing on the larger accts. Every acct. is not a postage stamp. The tractor will help build the business way more than a ZTR. The photo you posted was a 2410 or larger without turf tires with the loader attached!! Do you own a kubota b series tractor?

YardPro
12-29-2004, 08:08 AM
richard.
the company here that has the county school contract uses the kubota b series with turf tires. they work really well. they are fase, and also they are more versatile for them becuase of the rear pto and loaders. they can be sent on mulch jobs, etc.

Richard Martin
12-29-2004, 08:25 AM
That's nice that the Kubota can be sent on mulch jobs and what not. But the point of this thread was to gauge the ability of a tractor to mow grass as well and as fast as a ZTR and I maintain that a tractor can not. Bring that Kubota to one of my multi-acre jobs and I will run my XT2800 against it and I will blow that Kubota away.

Envy Lawn Service
12-30-2004, 08:11 PM
Envy,

I have one question for you. Is your rider Hydro or gear driven?
Oh, I used to run gear drive tractors and lawn tractors back in the day...
Back in the day when I hated mowing! Hummm wonder why? I hated gear drives and hand controlled hydros.

The first time I tried out a foot pedal hydro I was SOLD! In fact, that's when I began to enjoy the mowing side of the business. Man what a difference in control, performance, ease of use and productivity!

I guess that point brings me back around to what someone else posted about how many guys have never been on some of the stuff that's available today. What I'm saying is that many went from a junker gear drive 38" lawn tractor with a huge turning radius, ect.... and upgraded to a 60" Super Z or similar equipment. Hence the big production gain stories and/or better slope performance..... WELL DUH?!?!

Again, I'm not trying to mislead anyone or deminish the positives of ZTR's... I'm just trying to shed light on some of their short-comings. Although my past choices in Z's have been the best I could find for slopes....

#1- I just feel they fall short on slopes because of the zero turn design and configuration.

#2- I don't feel the zero turn design is worth the trade-off because under average conditions I see no production gains from the zero turn. It takes a lot of turning for a second or two per turn to amount to anything.

#3- The sharp zero turning nice, but only so effective. When mowing around things, you can only effectively turn so sharp while cutting without driving the rear tires into what you are trying to cut around. Some soft areas tear easily in spite of operator efforts/experience.

#4- The high speeds of ZTR's is also nice, but only so useful. Despite massive blade tip speed, certain lawns can only be cut well at limited speeds. Even more so, a lot of lawns are too bumpy to cut at maximum quality mowing speed. Bumpy lawns coupled with speed also cause tracking problems that force you to slow down to maintain overlap and nice straight uniform stripes.

In the end, I think my mowers have a lot of productive ability that is rendered useless to me on many properties. So I find myself a bit disappointed in certain areas. Maybe when all is said and done, you guys think I expect too much of my mowers???

Envy Lawn Service
12-30-2004, 08:16 PM
Buy any b series kubota tractor and you will be golden! Try to install a loader or tiller on a ZTR !

Sorry for the HUGE HIJACK!!!

I believe the above quote is actually the orginal point and subject matter of this thread. Something like a BX2230 with a 54" or 60" mower and several attachments can be any extremely versitile piece of equipment, while still being small enough for use where you would use a ZTR with the same size cut.

Fareway Lawncare
12-30-2004, 08:19 PM
you should have got the tt like I told you Long Time Ago...Then you wouldn't have these problems on Slopes & You Could Z-Turn Everything w/out Tearing Turf.

Flex-Deck
12-30-2004, 08:41 PM
Kubota is OK, but if you are really serious - JD is the only way to go.,

Soupy
12-30-2004, 09:05 PM
Envy, I had a hydro pedal JD (can't remember the model) that I bought while I already owned a Walk-behind and a ZTR. I thought I was going to find some use for it, but I didn't so I sold it.

Envy Lawn Service
12-30-2004, 09:49 PM
you should have got the tt like I told you Long Time Ago...Then you wouldn't have these problems on Slopes & You Could Z-Turn Everything w/out Tearing Turf.
Well, I was never really able to get my hands on a serious walkbehind. By that I mean the big eXmark Turf Tracers. But I still don't believe the numerous issues of turf damage can all be avoided, simply because of the design of things.

However, I have no doubt I could stay very close in production with a big Turf Tracer, while having a ton more personal safety. Aside from personal reasons, my only issues with the walkbehind were #1 even less versitility for multiple uses. #2 The smaller ones did seem to have enough weight on the drive tires to get good traction. #3 It would be a "B" to try to walk behind a mower on the kind of hills I'm talking, although I think I could mow some of them faster on foot.

The personal reasons are the big issue for me. I'm afraid I'm just not in good enough health and physical condition to go at it as hard as I do, with awalkbehind, equipped with a sulky or not....
:(

Otherwise I'd like to chop-shop an old Turf Tracer Jesse James style and build the ultimate walkbehind.... The Mountaineer Turf Tracer.

Envy Lawn Service
12-30-2004, 10:01 PM
Kubota is OK, but if you are really serious - JD is the only way to go.,
Both are good. But I think the best choice depends on what 'class' of tractor will suit your needs better. In the X595 class, which is what? Sub-Compact Garden Tractor? Anyways, I'd be looking at the X595 and the Simplicity Legacy XL / Massey Ferguson 2927 / AGCO 2027 (same tractor) for a more mowing oriented application.

For a more work oriented application with mowing, I'd be looking at true Sub-Compact tractors like the Kubota BX2230, New Holland TC24 and the Massey Ferguson GC2300.

PLM-1
12-31-2004, 01:17 AM
I have a grasshopper front mount. i can go sideways, back up and deck first. Can't really tell the difference. I think hills are where front mounts excel. Weight on the front and weight on the back with the drive tires in the middle.

What kinda tires are ppl using on these hills. One style better than the other...what about air pressure. I run the bar tread LP's on my GH and at 6 psi. when the ground gets soft.

Tvov
12-31-2004, 10:17 AM
What kinda tires are ppl using on these hills. One style better than the other...what about air pressure. I run the bar tread LP's on my GH and at 6 psi. when the ground gets soft.

We use regular turf tires. We try for max speed with as little turf damage as possible. When we have hills that the ZTRs might slip on, we break out the (shudder) walk-behinds. We also don't have very many hills.

A friend has Dixie Choppers with ag (bar) tires. I asked him about turf damage, he said that when the tires are new you have to be careful, but as they wear they work fine. Has this been your experience?

PLM-1
12-31-2004, 11:48 AM
We use regular turf tires. We try for max speed with as little turf damage as possible. When we have hills that the ZTRs might slip on, we break out the (shudder) walk-behinds. We also don't have very many hills.

A friend has Dixie Choppers with ag (bar) tires. I asked him about turf damage, he said that when the tires are new you have to be careful, but as they wear they work fine. Has this been your experience?

Yes it has so far. I have to be VERY careful turning and taking off. Big tread + power + weight = holes! Otherwise i like them. Very smooth ride and don't gum up - tread always clear.