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Soupy
01-05-2005, 09:07 AM
I spent all night working on a problem I had with QuickBooks Pro. I finally got it all figured out after many, many hours. This really isn't my problem though. I just wanted to let you all know I am wired in-case I don't make any sense.

I come to lawnsite after taking a break for a couple of days and all of the sudden I am reading about Lowballers in every other thread (I know it has always been bad, but not this bad) and How we should all want to be like Wal-Mart and how a Pizza coupon should be compared to how we charge our customers. So I thought I would say a few words about each.

LowBalling: When someone intentionally under prices the other guy. This is when you either know the price before hand and come in lower and nothing but the other guys price is what you based your price on. Or, you went to a potential customer and said you would do it for X amount lower then what they are paying now. Again not taking into account any cost or what you regular charge or anything.

It is not because somebody might have a lower price.

Wal-Mart: Is a retail store and in no way sells service. Apples and Oranges and should never be compared to lawn care. They are bad for america and we should all boycott them. Besides Kmart and Sears are merging and I can't wait until I can go to Kmart and buy a Kenmore Washer and dryer :)

Pizza coupons: Wow, This one seems odd to me. To think that if you use a pizza coupon you are contributing to lowballers. Oh forget it, I'm not even going to comment further on this one.

I think we can all agree that retails store lowball to get business. Most will even come right out and say we will beat any advertised price by x amount. But what does that have to do with a service oriented business like lawn care? Don't you think it would be better to compare lawn care to plumbing and other service oriented business's? When was the last time a plumber came to your door and said they will beat anyones price?

Just my pennies worth.

Soupy
01-05-2005, 09:25 AM
I just added another thread about lowballing. Go ahead and call me a hypocrite. I deserve it. But please remember the definition of lowballing when you leave this thread.

olderthandirt
01-05-2005, 09:49 AM
Soupy
The reason for all the threads latley about lowballing is becouse of trolling. That all it is and nothing more.

Mac

MMLawn
01-05-2005, 09:54 AM
I agree Mac it's Trollers. I took a 3 week break from here and when I returned there sure were a lot of new members and a lot of trolling.

Also tell Odin if you talk to him that Sgt Leggett my bro in law is safe and home for good, last week from his year in Iraq.

Tn Lawn Man
01-05-2005, 10:10 AM
Soupy
The reason for all the threads latley about lowballing is becouse of trolling. That all it is and nothing more.

Mac


And pure Winter Boredom!

Lux Lawn
01-05-2005, 10:14 AM
Soupy
I think thats a great definition you gace for Lowballer.Some guys will work cheaper because their overhead is lower or what ever but I think you hit it right in there.

Kelly's Landscaping
01-05-2005, 10:25 AM
Back to the Pizza there was once a national competition for best pizza in the country some place in Chicago won but 2nd and 3rd place went to 2 pizza places on the same street in New Haven. Perhaps I am spoiled But I don't care if your giving me the pizza for free with the coupon if its not Pepe's its Crap and I don't want to even taste it. Speaking of which I am now in the mood for a white clam pie to bad itís snowing now and its only 10:30 am.

JimLewis
01-05-2005, 12:51 PM
:blob3: :blob3: :blob3:

Whoa!!! Sounds like you are calling making fund of Hackerbacker's analogies!!! Are you making fun of him? What's with all the ridicule? You guys on Lawnsite are such Brutes!!!

Can't we all just get along, always agree, and just be friends???

:p

Soupy
01-05-2005, 01:00 PM
:blob3: :blob3: :blob3:

Whoa!!! Sounds like you are calling making fund of Hackerbacker's analogies!!! Are you making fun of him? What's with all the ridicule? You guys on Lawnsite are such Brutes!!!

Can't we all just get along, always agree, and just be friends???

:p

No, if I was name calling I would have changed the 2nd and the 7th letter. But I won't tell you to what :)

Actually I wasn't singling anyone out. I just noticed that several of the threads were mentioning lowballers and Walmart. Then there was this one thread that mentioned Pizza's. None if made any sense to me But I have been up all night. Actually it is noon and I still have not been a sleep. I better start snoozing fast, My kids will be home in 3 hours. :sleeping:

leadarrows
01-05-2005, 01:02 PM
I agree Mac it's Trollers. I took a 3 week break from here and when I returned there sure were a lot of new members and a lot of trolling.

Also tell Odin if you talk to him that Sgt Leggett my bro in law is safe and home for good, last week from his year in Iraq.

Some good news in this post can't let it get by unnoticed. It's always real good to hear some good news ...with all the bad news were hearing these days.

osc
01-05-2005, 03:30 PM
I'd like to add my own definition of low balling. That is when a price is given on an estimate that is not high enough to make profit with the motivation of taking your competition out of the market. In essence, taking a loss on a job just so your competitor doesn't get the business either.
If a low estimate reflects a pricing structure that you can live with long term and still be in business you are not a lowballer, you are just competitve.

Ask yourself how much money you want for your product or service. I want it all. I want all I am worth and all the money I am suppose to get. I don't want to lower my price and over time I want pay increases. Isn't that what we all want?

yrdandgardenhandyman
01-05-2005, 04:21 PM
[QUOTE=Soupy]
LowBalling: When someone intentionally under prices the other guy. This is when you either know the price before hand and come in lower and nothing but the other guys price is what you based your price on. Or, you went to a potential customer and said you would do it for X amount lower then what they are paying now. Again not taking into account any cost or what you regular charge or anything.

It is not because somebody might have a lower price.


If'n I was a lawn customer and I was looking for the lowest price and some lowlife........oops, I mean lowballer told me that he/she would beat my regular guys price, I'd tell him/her that I was paying $15.00. Not the $25.00 that I'd really be paying. Then if'n the lowballer said he can't do it for the $10.00 required to lowball the reg LCO out I'd tell my regular guy that I was offered $20.00 to have it done and get him to lower his price. payup Ah, maybe dishonesty does pay.

Soupy
01-05-2005, 04:29 PM
[QUOTE=Soupy]
LowBalling: When someone intentionally under prices the other guy. This is when you either know the price before hand and come in lower and nothing but the other guys price is what you based your price on. Or, you went to a potential customer and said you would do it for X amount lower then what they are paying now. Again not taking into account any cost or what you regular charge or anything.

It is not because somebody might have a lower price.


If'n I was a lawn customer and I was looking for the lowest price and some lowlife........oops, I mean lowballer told me that he/she would beat my regular guys price, I'd tell him/her that I was paying $15.00. Not the $25.00 that I'd really be paying. Then if'n the lowballer said he can't do it for the $10.00 required to lowball the reg LCO out I'd tell my regular guy that I was offered $20.00 to have it done and get him to lower his price. payup Ah, maybe dishonesty does pay.

Yea, but your current LCO might not be a lowballer. I would never lower my price to keep a customer.

muddstopper
01-05-2005, 06:12 PM
If'n I was a lawn customer and I was looking for the lowest price and some lowlife........oops, I mean lowballer told me that he/she would beat my regular guys price, I'd tell him/her that I was paying $15.00. Not the $25.00 that I'd really be paying. Then if'n the lowballer said he can't do it for the $10.00 required to lowball the reg LCO out I'd tell my regular guy that I was offered $20.00 to have it done and get him to lower his price. Ah, maybe dishonesty does pay.

This is where a real business person would take another look at his or her cost and make a decision as to whether or not they can lower their prices to remain competitive. If lowering ones prices would result in a lost or a breakeven only situation, the the business person would have to let that customer go. On the other hand, if the business person sees that they can reduce their prices and still maintain a decent profit level then they should reconsider their pricing structure. This doesnt mean they should lower their price, but evealuate whether it is feasible or not. The main point of being in any business is to make a profit. Why work your tail off when at the end of the day you have nothing to show for the hard work. Its easier to lay on the couch and watch TV than it is to work for nothing, the end result is the same.

JimLewis
01-05-2005, 07:15 PM
No, if I was name calling I would have changed the 2nd and the 7th letter. But I won't tell you to what

Soups, I hope you know I was just kidding - being sarcastic. I was just picking on humperback some more. :D

Precision
01-05-2005, 07:15 PM
why would you lower your profit margin to keep a client?

You have just started a precedent. You have agreed that you charge too much. You have told the customer that you will never raise rates cause you are too scared to lose them. The customer now has the power.

Now in my world. A client comes to me and says, Joe Lowballer says he will do the same or better job than you for $10 less per month.

My response. That may well be true Mr. Client. I have no way to know what kind of work he does or what insurance insurance he has and the like. What I do know is that I have been doing your lawn for x months and have never missed a mow, and I think I have your lawn if pretty great shape. Would you agree?

When he says yes, Well, I know if it were my lawn, I wouldn't be willing to risk having my lawn damaged for $120 in savings. Because it certainly won't seem like a lot of savings if something goes wrong. Long pause.

my response to whatever he say. Mr. customer, it is your lawn and your money. Just let me know how you decide.

If he drops me, make a note and charge more to come back and a higher clean up or fix up fee.

scrub customers are like scrub LCO's I have no time for them. Shop by price only, get what you deserve.

yrdandgardenhandyman
01-05-2005, 07:34 PM
I wouldn't lower my price either. Another story I'm sure many can relate to. Last year I had a lady call and ask for an estimate to take care of her property. It was aproximately 1/2 acre with 6 shrubs and a few flower beds. When I showed up she proceeded to show me the work her other lawn guy was doing. Bushes trimmed unevenly and some too deep. Big holes in the shrub. Some places in the lawn scalped and a bunch of missed spots. I bid $30.00/wk just for the mowing and didn't even get to the bush and landscape care bid. She stopped me right there and said too much. She explained that she was very unhappy with the quality of the other guys work (DUH!!!) but that he used "California payment method" whereas he got $60.00/month to mow, trim and keep up the bushes and flower beds. He got this whether he worked for her in that month or not. I told her that quality costs a little more. She told me she probably would keep the scrub then and try to get him to do better. It was an old man with a Wal Mart special push mower and a Chevy PU. I went by the place a couple of weeks later and there he was. Dust and dirt flying. Looked like hell, but apparently price WAS more important than quality. I could only smile and wave as I went by, thinking how lucky I was not to have this lady as a client as she probably would have been a PITA anyway. I suspect she couldn't find anyone else who was stupid or desperate enough to do it at her price. Where do these people (customer and lawn guy) come from??

Soupy
01-05-2005, 08:29 PM
Soups, I hope you know I was just kidding - being sarcastic. I was just picking on humperback some more. :D

Yea, I knew you were joking, so was I :)

JCA1
01-05-2005, 10:04 PM
I'm not in the lawn care business but I do feel the pain of lowballers. In fact the business I'm in is horrible for lowballing and overcharging as well. We gain a lot of customers when we tell them our going rates because the company they are dealing with is simply overcharging them. When they call current company to notify them about the switch to us, they lowball us. If I were the customer I would say no thanks! You been ripping me off all this time and now you want to deal fair? Then we give estimates on new construction jobs and get lowballed by others you will loose money on the job. At the same time I think about new people just getting in the business and they have to get started somehow.

Soupy
01-05-2005, 10:13 PM
I really didn't want this to turn into another thread about lowballing problems. We can joke around, talk about the definition etc. But please don't talk about lowballing problems. I can't handle anymore lowballing stories :cry:

Likestomow
01-05-2005, 10:58 PM
[/QUOTE]Wal-Mart:.... we should all boycott them. [/QUOTE]

Soupy, do you really mean that? If so, how is it working out for you?

zoomer
01-05-2005, 11:15 PM
Soupy

Anyone who understands our economic system knows that there is no such thing as a "lowballer"--there are only people who charge less than we do.

If someone is afraid of competition I suggest that he/she relocates to one of the following countries which has fixed pricing for lawn care: China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, or Vietnam.

Soupy
01-05-2005, 11:17 PM
Wal-Mart:.... we should all boycott them. [/QUOTE]

Soupy, do you really mean that? If so, how is it working out for you?[/QUOTE]


What do you mean. Are you asking me if I can survive without WalMart? I have not been to WalMart in over a year. I only shopped there a couple of times in 2003.

There are a lot of alternatives to WalMart.

Yes I mean it! I think we all need to stop whining about the economy and start doing something about it!

Soupy
01-05-2005, 11:36 PM
Soupy

Anyone who understands our economic system knows that there is no such thing as a "lowballer"--there are only people who charge less than we do.

If someone is afraid of competition I suggest that he/she relocates to one of the following countries which has fixed pricing for lawn care: China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, or Vietnam.

Sure retail stores lowball, but they are selling a product that has little to do with service. None of these retail stores that lowball offer good service. They pretend to, but their idea of service is way different then actually being there for you when you need them. They outsource everything they can to keep cost low.

Look how bad the retail industry has hurt america because of the need to lowball. If the whole service industry (plumbers, electricians etc.) starts trying to pretend they can copy the retail industry and lowball and get rich. They are wrong. When this happens you better really get ready for the economy to hit bottom. Business's will be putting themselves and others out of jobs. The one thing that holds us back is the fact that besides labor, there isn't a whole lot we can outsource to make our operating cost cheaper. Sure you can buy some foreign equipment (mostly hand held) but it isn't cheap. How many lawnmowers on the commercial level are made overseas?

I view the LCO that brings in H2B laborers as Scum. A few guys might be able to get rich and survive to grow into a big national company. But those few people that live the great dream are putting hundreds of people out of work. They need to have a couple of Ghost visit them on X-Mas eve.

zoomer
01-06-2005, 12:04 AM
You can either take a philosophical or realistic approach to business. For example, as a philosophical approach you can say that you are against the H2B vista as being anti-American. Or, I can say that the US stole Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California from Mexico in the 19th century so we need to help the Hispanic immigrants.

However, I suggest that there is a better approach in business--that we take a realistic approach to our problems--if it is legal, it is ethical.

yrdandgardenhandyman
01-06-2005, 12:34 AM
You can either take a philosophical or realistic approach to business. For example, as a philosophical approach you can say that you are against the H2B vista as being anti-American. Or, I can say that the US stole Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California from Mexico in the 19th century so we need to help the Hispanic immigrants.

However, I suggest that there is a better approach in business--that we take a realistic approach to our problems--if it is legal, it is ethical.



What a load of hooey. The American government stole my peoples land too and marched many of them to death but I don't ask any favors. This generation is not responsible for the acts of previous generations. All any of us can ask for is a chance to prove ourselves. Nobody deserves a free ride. Not even ILLEGAL ALIENS, be they Mexican, Guatemalan, Serb or even Canadian.
You just go on thinking that just because it's legal that it's ethical and see how far you ultimately get.

zoomer
01-06-2005, 01:14 AM
What a load of hooey. The American government stole my peoples land too and marched many of them to death but I don't ask any favors. This generation is not responsible for the acts of previous generations. All any of us can ask for is a chance to prove ourselves. Nobody deserves a free ride. Not even ILLEGAL ALIENS, be they Mexican, Guatemalan, Serb or even Canadian.
You just go on thinking that just because it's legal that it's ethical and see how far you ultimately get.

I take a different approach. I personally think that we do have an obligation to those who suffered from our forefathers--and I don't mind sharing with them the prosperity that I have received from their suffering.

However, my real question is, why do you have a problem with an issue that is legal acceptable?

Soupy
01-06-2005, 01:30 AM
I take a different approach. I personally think that we do have an obligation to those who suffered from our forefathers--and I don't mind sharing with them the prosperity that I have received from their suffering.

However, my real question is, why do you have a problem with an issue that is legal acceptable?

Don't we give them enough money allready? We do help other countries all the time. Who helps us? We have paid our dues!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand why you think like this. Most roofers do, and a lot of landscapers too.

zoomer
01-06-2005, 01:50 AM
I suppose I am more sympathetic than most. I personally think that since the US illegally stole Texas (where I live), and almost 1/2 of the current states, that I can't complain too much about Mexicans coming back to their original homeland in the hopes of bettering their lives--the same thing we did 100 years ago!!!

richard coffman
01-06-2005, 02:03 AM
I take a different approach. I personally think that we do have an obligation to those who suffered from our forefathers--and I don't mind sharing with them the prosperity that I have received from their suffering.

However, my real question is, why do you have a problem with an issue that is legal acceptable?

I'm sorry, but i"veheard enough from people who think we should give illegal aliens a free hand and pay for something that happened 200 years ago. The word Illegal really does mean something, it means they shouldn't be here in the first place. plain and simple, i got my reasons for feeling this way.

Respectfully,

Richard/Owner :cool: :cool: :cool:

Soupy
01-06-2005, 02:05 AM
I suppose I am more sympathetic than most. I personally think that since the US illegally stole Texas (where I live), and almost 1/2 of the current states, that I can't complain too much about Mexicans coming back to their original homeland in the hopes of bettering their lives--the same thing we did 100 years ago!!!

I'm not against people wanting to come to america and settle. If they come here, spend there money here and pay taxes here. I don't have a problem. But you can not compare that to the H2B program or any program that has aliens coming here and making money and taking it back to their families in another country.

zoomer
01-06-2005, 03:00 AM
If you were a Mexican who wanted to better his life would you cross the border today just like the illegal "Texicans" did 100 years ago? Or would you stay where your were and eat dirt for supper?

Bon appetit...!!!

SodKing
01-06-2005, 08:16 AM
I'll add my 2 cents. We have several legal aliens working for the family business. They live here, work here, eat here, pay taxes here, buy cars here, everything you and i do they do BUT they send a good deal of money back to their families in Coasta Rica (wives, sons, daughters). Slowly they are moving their families up here. One has become a Real estate magnate back in his home country, yet he daid he will be permenantly living in the US until he retires. I have no problem with legal aliens.

I do have a problem with the born and bred Americans who have no work ethic, no concept of what is expected of them when they work for someone, no brains and walk around in a drug induced stupor. They think because they exist they deserve $20 per hour for showing up. I'll take a legal alien who wants to work any day over the local kids who are indifferent.

Soupy
01-06-2005, 09:11 AM
I'll add my 2 cents. We have several legal aliens working for the family business. They live here, work here, eat here, pay taxes here, buy cars here, everything you and i do they do BUT they send a good deal of money back to their families in Coasta Rica (wives, sons, daughters). Slowly they are moving their families up here. One has become a Real estate magnate back in his home country, yet he daid he will be permenantly living in the US until he retires. I have no problem with legal aliens.

I do have a problem with the born and bred Americans who have no work ethic, no concept of what is expected of them when they work for someone, no brains and walk around in a drug induced stupor. They think because they exist they deserve $20 per hour for showing up. I'll take a legal alien who wants to work any day over the local kids who are indifferent.

You are telling me you can not find good american workers? I hope you can sleep at night night knowing you are sending money to another country. You say your worker spends his money here? Then why is he buying real estate in another country? If you are happy being part of the problem then good for you. I hope your siblings can live with your mistake!

yrdandgardenhandyman
01-06-2005, 11:36 AM
Make money in America. Send it out of the country. Fund terrorists with our own money. Great idea!

KCLandscape
01-06-2005, 12:31 PM
How do you all think lowballing translates to a loss leader? Are they the same or different??

Precision
01-06-2005, 07:59 PM
ok so hiring a mexican with a h2b visa now funds terrorism. Oh yeah, I did see that thing where mexicans are now suicide bombing taco bells in protest of our perversion of their heritage.

PUH LEASE.

If you chose not to utilize the H2b visa program, are too small to make it work for you or whatever, that is your issue. The people who chose to use it are perfectly legal and have every right to do so. Just like the employees have every right to spend their money wherever they want.

Bringing in illegals (or paying american's under the table) is crap. But that has to do with avoiding costs. H2b does little if anything to defray costs. But according to many it does alot to solve the slacker, lazy bum, drug using, stealing problem that many of us face from our employees.

Jingoism is stupid and a sign of a mind rusted shut. For those with little knowledge of history, Jingoism cost us dearly before WWI. Going back to an isolationist "Ideal" is silly and won't protect our lazy, not to mention an impossiblity. Well, unless you are going to switch to solar powered lawn equipment. For me, I will stick with the ones that use imported oil by products.

Soupy
01-06-2005, 09:10 PM
ok so hiring a mexican with a h2b visa now funds terrorism. Oh yeah, I did see that thing where mexicans are now suicide bombing taco bells in protest of our perversion of their heritage.

PUH LEASE.

If you chose not to utilize the H2b visa program, are too small to make it work for you or whatever, that is your issue. The people who chose to use it are perfectly legal and have every right to do so. Just like the employees have every right to spend their money wherever they want.

Bringing in illegals (or paying american's under the table) is crap. But that has to do with avoiding costs. H2b does little if anything to defray costs. But according to many it does alot to solve the slacker, lazy bum, drug using, stealing problem that many of us face from our employees.

Jingoism is stupid and a sign of a mind rusted shut. For those with little knowledge of history, Jingoism cost us dearly before WWI. Going back to an isolationist "Ideal" is silly and won't protect our lazy, not to mention an impossiblity. Well, unless you are going to switch to solar powered lawn equipment. For me, I will stick with the ones that use imported oil by products.

Don't forget the famous phrase :"It's not what your country can do for you! It's what you can do for your country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Maybe it's the beaches or something were you guys live. Not all americans are lazy drug addicts.

yrdandgardenhandyman
01-06-2005, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=Precision]ok so hiring a mexican with a h2b visa now funds terrorism. Oh yeah, I did see that thing where mexicans are now suicide bombing taco bells in protest of our perversion of their heritage.

OK, you are right on that point. Most, if not all the 911 terrorists came in through Canada.
I still think ILLEGALS need to be controlled better. Maybe things are different in my area but I can find plenty of Americans who will work their tail off for $10.00/ hour. No need for h2b for me. Maybe it's the farm work ethic.
By the way, I am a born and bred American as are all my family on my Mothers side for a couple thousand years or more. My great, great Grandfather came from Germany and my great, great Grandmother was Irish. I have 3 Hispanic grandchildren and have had my son in law work for me many times. Hard worker too.