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blair smock
01-06-2005, 02:08 PM
Ok, you have my curiosity peeked, I read a thread about a week or so ago on the battle between the zero turn and utility/garden tractor. Speed / Cut/ Durability and application were all discussed. I did not agree with some of the comments but hey that is what the forum is all about. My comment is this, I still have yet to see a Garden / utility tractor with a deck comparable to the Exmark or J.D. 7iron, Scag or Hustler. I own a Kubota Bx 1500 and a J.D. Gx tractor as well as Exmark Lazer Z’s Zero turns. I am not saying the Tractors don’t have a good cut but the decks are no way close the the contractors decks on the Zeros. My Question is this, How many Lco’s have a small utility tractor or garden tractor they use as a full time mower or a least 20-30 hard during a work week. What make model and issues have you had? Any pictures of the cut and tractor?

The previous thread got me thinking, I had to finish up last year with the J.D. GX 20 hp due to shoulder surgery. It worked great but I probably added an hour to an hour and a half on my larger jobs. With the help of the power steering and hydro fwd and rev and a spin steer, I was able to maintain my customers. My reason for asking and rambling is, I will probably have to use the tractor most of this year due to some nerve damage in my arm and shoulder, If there is a better tractor I need to look into it. Thanks guys, Blair

Flex-Deck
01-06-2005, 05:58 PM
First of all do not compare a JD Gx series (Homeowner mower) to an eXmark Commercial. I only run Tractors - Get yourself a real tractor (JD x495 or x595) The 495 comes in front steer or all wheel steer - Very maneuverable, very very well built - Real decks under them. I run mine 10 hrs a day some days. I will try to post a pic, but I have not had much luck in the past. This is of a 17 acre job that is biweekly, so it gets pretty tall - My wife and I do this with a 455 JD and a 595 JD in 2 hrs. and 40 Min - no windrows - and excellent mowing job.

blair smock
01-06-2005, 06:51 PM
Hi guy, thanks for the reply, IF you can post a picture of the x series that you use would appreciate it. are you using diesel or gas? This may be of help, any idea of $ not retail actual street price. Thanks for the info and help!
Blair

Gatewayuser
01-06-2005, 07:53 PM
I spent $6,000 on my w/b and I got a 1983 Ariens gt-17 hydro 48" for free, except I rebuilt the engine and that cost $900 and now it works perfect. And get this it stripes better than any mower I have ever seen!!! It mows at 6mph so it won't win any races especially when I turn, but the cut quality is amazing.

Travis Followell
01-06-2005, 08:15 PM
You may want to check out the Kubota's. They are built good and cut good. They have air cooled gas, liquid cooled gas, and diesel engines available. They also have hyd deck lift, foot pedal hydro trans, and power steering plus they are very comfortable.

Soupy
01-07-2005, 06:02 AM
Guys, don't forget to take into consideration of deck size when people claim to mow large amounts of turf in an hour using a tractor.

Some people might give you the wrong impression on what is realistic. They will tell you the model of there tractor but not mention that they made huge modifications to them.

I'm not dissing these unique pieces of equipment, just pointing out important facts to consider.

To comment on your experience of speed. You will only find a handful that will say a garden tractor (no mods) is just as fast as a ZTR. If you go to the homeowner section you will see that lots of homeowners have traded in their garden tractors for ZTR's and say that it has saved them hours of time cutting their large properties.

Sorry I couldn't be any help on tractor recommendations.

Flex-Deck
01-07-2005, 07:45 AM
Hi guy, thanks for the reply, IF you can post a picture of the x series that you use would appreciate it. are you using diesel or gas? This may be of help, any idea of $ not retail actual street price. Thanks for the info and help!
Blair

Soupy is right - I have a couple of mods on my x595 - Here is a pic

Flex-Deck
01-07-2005, 07:48 AM
Hm, let me try again

65hoss
01-07-2005, 08:07 AM
Hm, let me try again
Or maybe again. :waving:

Green Quality
01-07-2005, 08:19 AM
Hi. I started last year with- get this a cub cadet 2180.with a 42 in deck.from spring till fall I put on 351 hr hard hours.sure it not fast,has a good cut.and held it's own on a lot of hills.this spring I will up grade to a 3000 series,rated at 8mph,also has diff lock.and shaft driven deck.i would like to get a ztr ,but i live and work here in the mountains,ztr would not cut mustard on some of the hills that under sized cub did. ;)

Envy Lawn Service
01-07-2005, 08:38 AM
Blair,

Keep your eye out in the near future. I'll get up some good info for you just as soon as I am clear to. In the meantime, have a look at those John Deere X-series, Kubota G-series and Simplicity's Legacy XL. All of those are a step above, have good construction and gas or diesel engine options.

Soupy
01-07-2005, 11:06 AM
Here you go Flex. The new software does not let you post pictures that you have already posted. You can go into your userCP and delete the attachments in the older thread and then re post it were you want it. The only problem is that it won't be in the old thread no more. I think this is something Sean needs to have fixed.

blair smock
01-07-2005, 11:14 AM
That really looks cool- no wonder you can cut so quickly- Out of curiosity is it hard to turn with the extra decks? How do you load them up on a trailer?

Soupy
01-07-2005, 11:19 AM
That really looks cool- no wonder you can cut so quickly- Out of curiosity is it hard to turn with the extra decks? How do you load them up on a trailer?

I would think he could turn easier do to the extra length on each side. This will allow for his turn to stay inside his cut, similar to a ZTR. I'm just assuming though.

Flex-Deck
01-07-2005, 02:02 PM
Yea - turning is a breeze - especially with the short turn radius JD offers. and the 4wd allows me to get into places without planning. Just go - flip to 4wd if you need to back up a hill with the extra weight, or go anywhere. Thanks Brad

meets1
01-07-2005, 02:22 PM
I can't beleive you guys would rather use a tractor for mowing than a zero turn. Based up on all use as commercial and commercial grade equipment - that is why we switched to all zero's a couple years ago. We mow circles arond them now. We run all Toro's vs JD, New Holland, & Kubota. Now we up graded two tractors with more hp and lift for seeding/tilling/blowing snow. We still use one for cutting when its crunch time.

There is another crew here in town that uses the tractors, but when I am there and compared to equal lawns, sixe, shape, grass height, were loading up b/f he even finishes.

Now I am no probably with tractors - but for time, effecieny etc. i find it hard to beleive you would rather use the tractor.

Flex-Deck
01-07-2005, 06:47 PM
I can't beleive you guys would rather use a tractor for mowing than a zero turn. Based up on all use as commercial and commercial grade equipment - that is why we switched to all zero's a couple years ago. We mow circles arond them now. We run all Toro's vs JD, New Holland, & Kubota. Now we up graded two tractors with more hp and lift for seeding/tilling/blowing snow. We still use one for cutting when its crunch time.

There is another crew here in town that uses the tractors, but when I am there and compared to equal lawns, sixe, shape, grass height, were loading up b/f he even finishes.

Now I am no probably with tractors - but for time, effecieny etc. i find it hard to beleive you would rather use the tractor.

I prefer tractors because we mow so many properties with very steep ditches.

65hoss
01-07-2005, 07:16 PM
I prefer tractors because we mow so many properties with very steep ditches.
That is a steep ditch??? Thats an indention around here. I do mountains with my Z compared to that "steep ditch".

redoak77
01-07-2005, 07:41 PM
We ended up getting free use a john deere 425 this year and while it is not as fast as an exmark ztr it does an acceptable job. It is invaluable on some of the larger properties and it is a nice compliment to my tthp.

j&c
01-08-2005, 04:10 AM
all we use are tractors.
husqvarna decks are 10 ga. and 21 hp to 25 hp 48" to 54" smooth cuting maybe not as fast as a ztr. we are planing on purchasing a husqvarna ztr this year ( maybe even 2) all depends on the number of contracts that we get versus last year these will have to be at least 60" and for our larger accounts of 2+ acres
as far as the tractors go no complaints I guess it all comes down to what you like and what you have had good experience's with IMO..

Soupy
01-08-2005, 06:44 AM
That is a steep ditch??? Thats an indention around here. I do mountains with my Z compared to that "steep ditch".

I agree. From reading post on hills, I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of unexperienced ZTR owners. I don't know if they are just scared to try or just have it in their head that it can't work. There really is more to operating a ZTR to it's full potential other then knowing the left lever makes you turn right, and the right lever makes you turn left.

I guess it's a lot like driving a car. There are drivers that can drive just fine but wouldn't dare take a corner very fast. Then you have experience drivers that can take the same corner at high speeds with no problem. These people have real experience in driving and have perfected the art of stunt driving. Even though in extreme conditions they have modified cars with extra safety features, they could get in my own car and drive circles around me.

Seriously I have seen pictures posted that are laughable. Then I have seen some that I just shrug my shoulder and give them the benefit of doubt. But I have only seen a very few that I would flat out agree that a ZTR would not be safe.

Next spring I am going to start documenting some hills. I really don't have any that put a ZTR to a rough task, but they are steeper then a lot of pictures posted.

65hoss
01-08-2005, 09:14 AM
I agree. From reading post on hills, I have come to the conclusion that there are a lot of unexperienced ZTR owners. I don't know if they are just scared to try or just have it in their head that it can't work. There really is more to operating a ZTR to it's full potential other then knowing the left lever makes you turn right, and the right lever makes you turn left.

I guess it's a lot like driving a car. There are drivers that can drive just fine but wouldn't dare take a corner very fast. Then you have experience drivers that can take the same corner at high speeds with no problem. These people have real experience in driving and have perfected the art of stunt driving. Even though in extreme conditions they have modified cars with extra safety features, they could get in my own car and drive circles around me.

Seriously I have seen pictures posted that are laughable. Then I have seen some that I just shrug my shoulder and give them the benefit of doubt. But I have only seen a very few that I would flat out agree that a ZTR would not be safe.

Next spring I am going to start documenting some hills. I really don't have any that put a ZTR to a rough task, but they are steeper then a lot of pictures posted.
I agree. Most all of it is operator.

meets1
01-08-2005, 09:35 AM
I can see using a tractor on a steep ditch, but the pic above is common place around my area which do with our Z's. We do one very steep ditch with a push and our extra tractor but that is it. It does have a place, but I don't think as a primary mower.

Richard Martin
01-08-2005, 10:40 AM
I've also found that the hazard that might be at the bottom of the slope has a lot to do with how steep (degree wise) a person is willing to try cutting. That ditch has nothing more than grass at the bottom of it. Big deal. Now put a cliff, rocks or water at the bottom and people tend to get a lot more cautious. I got a degree tool for Christmas and checked out a few of the slopes I'm putting my Dixie on. I had thought I was doing in the 17 to 18 degree range. They are more like 24 to 25 degrees with water and drop off hazards.

Soupy
01-08-2005, 10:47 AM
I use to have a dixie and it cut hills but the high center of gravity does make it a little less stable on hills.

Richard Martin
01-08-2005, 02:03 PM
Someone once told me that you would have to get a Dixie well in excess of 60 degrees with a 170 pound operator in the seat before it would roll. Dixie's super-wide wheel base more than makes up for the operator's high seat position.

Soupy
01-08-2005, 02:10 PM
Someone once told me that you would have to get a Dixie well in excess of 60 degrees with a 170 pound operator in the seat before it would roll. Dixie's super-wide wheel base more than makes up for the operator's high seat position.

Yea, all ZTR's are near impossible to roll. But the high center of gravity makes you slip easier. I'm not dissing Dixie Chopper's. I was just pointing out that you have success with one of the lesser Hill holders. I loved the quality of the cut on my Dixie. I miss the even looking stripes that were created due to the Turf Boss tires.

Mickhippy
01-08-2005, 08:11 PM
I think having both a tractor and a ZTR would be the perfect set up.

Mines up up to about 370 hr in 18mth and only problem is bent the deck where the spindle attachés due to hitting some seriously hard items. Easily knocked back though! I will admit that while the deck on mine is good, it does let the tractor down sometimes with clogging long wet thick stuff and not chopping fine enough!

I think some are still comparing small LT's and smaller GTs to these newer semi sub compacts (Kub Bx and X series for example). They are chalk and cheese. These newer models are so much more heavy duty it aint funny, plus 4wd puts them "safely" where a z wouldnt go! Can you go flat out down a hill and stop on a dime half way down, then reverse back up? I think not!

Tinkerer
01-09-2005, 03:54 AM
Hey: Richard Martin, where do you get one of those degree tools?

The homeowner version riding mowers run a slower blade tips speed. And you get what your pay for. I have heard of a few guys that buy brand new cheap MTD tractors and usually get it to last through the season.

You guys forgot something, half way in between a tractor and a zero turn is a rear steer like the Toro Groundsmasters and JD, Kubota other brand rear steers. Not quite as quick as a zero turn, but they manouver very well.

Richard Martin
01-09-2005, 07:52 AM
Hey: Richard Martin, where do you get one of those degree tools?

Mine came from the local Harbor Freight Tools store.

You can also get them from Harbor Freight's website at http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=34214

65hoss
01-09-2005, 10:08 AM
I think some are still comparing small LT's and smaller GTs to these newer semi sub compacts (Kub Bx and X series for example).


Actually the original poster on the other thread was talking about a sub-tractor. Nobody else is. A BX series is a real tractor but very compact. Not the same thing as the garden tractors being discussed. Yes there are better ones than the local chainstore $999 special, but even the $3k ones are not the same as a BX or a Ztr. A BX with loader is $10k-$12k depending on dealer and part of the country. Everyone in these posts are not talking about these. All these guys talking "tractors" are talking about $1k-$3k tractors for the most part, the "getting started in the business tractor".

meets1
01-09-2005, 08:11 PM
I would agree - 1 - 3K machines are starter machines. Just like a Sears Zero turn. We have one small New Holland Boomer, 24 hp diesel, front wheel assist, cab, heater, radio, fans, blower, mower, tiller, spary tank etc. Works great. Yes, I can go down a hill and back up but it has very limited use for mowing. With front wheel assist engaged, you will tear up the turf - no matter how easy you go at, also without the assist, I will start to spin the tires, then I lock in the diif/lock and there is damaged turf.

Now Deere, Kubato, have all wheel steer on some of there "tractor" mowers. Good machines. We ran with a KB, traded, ran with a Deere, don't remeber numbers, but were all capable of hydro lift in back and front. Nice but then I demo a Z - no turning back.

Every machine has limits. Gas, Diesel, 40' cut or a 72' cut. I guess for the guys using either machine, if your operation runs with it and you have tried both methods, great - let the money roll!

Mickhippy
01-10-2005, 01:51 AM
Actually the original poster on the other thread was talking about a sub-tractor. Nobody else is. A BX series is a real tractor but very compact. Not the same thing as the garden tractors being discussed. Yes there are better ones than the local chainstore $999 special, but even the $3k ones are not the same as a BX or a Ztr. A BX with loader is $10k-$12k depending on dealer and part of the country. Everyone in these posts are not talking about these. All these guys talking "tractors" are talking about $1k-$3k tractors for the most part, the "getting started in the business tractor".


Exactly and I was talking about the Sub!

I almost got the BX instead of the Deere. The Kub road alot harded, was slightly bigger, heavier and a few other things than the JD did better. I'll stand by my decision.

Still want a Z though!

65hoss
01-10-2005, 08:37 AM
Exactly and I was talking about the Sub!

I almost got the BX instead of the Deere. The Kub road alot harded, was slightly bigger, heavier and a few other things than the JD did better. I'll stand by my decision.

Still want a Z though!
The people in these threads talking about real tractors have a closer situation to a Z. The decks are much closer to a Z. They must be heavy duty on a real tractor. Its the people that are arguing this based on their murray, craftsman, troybuilt, yardman, or whatever that are not comparing apples to reality. :waving:

Mickhippy
01-11-2005, 02:28 AM
Hoss, I cant believe it, we are in total agreement! :rolleyes: hehe

Like I said, the deck is really the only thing that lets the X series down. I'd like to put one of those MMM decks I think there called (like on the 2010?), on it, but cant as far as I know! Bugger!
Even still, 370 odd hrs so far and only minor problems and its done some crazy stuff!

Have a vacant block to do tomorrow thats steep and the grass is very long in places. I'll take some pics and show ya's!

Mickhippy
01-12-2005, 04:47 AM
Heres the pics....

65hoss
01-12-2005, 07:52 AM
You don't need that little tractor/mower, you need a bushhog for that grass. haha.

Mickhippy
01-12-2005, 08:51 AM
You don't need that little tractor/mower, you need a bushhog for that grass. haha.

It was getting towards the max of what I'd do!

In the end, bloody neighbours emptied there catchers from mowing there own lawns on the block and when I hit the piles, huge clouds of dust went all over me. Still go something in my eye and my wife pulled a seed out of it earlier!
Anyway, all the dust and cr@p covered up the air intake screens and I ended up over heating it pretty badly! Cleaned it off, let it cool down and it wouldnt engage the blades. Also leaking coolant from somewhere!

Its all covered under warrenty so no worries with that. Took it to dealler and he's gonna try fix it tomorrow morning. Pretty good considering I took it in at 3pm today!

So, in the end, probably shouldnt of done it but have done simular/worse even before and the money was good also! :cool2:

At least I know that the little JD isnt bullet proof! haaaaa Almost! :p

Envy Lawn Service
01-12-2005, 09:12 PM
That is a steep ditch??? Thats an indention around here. I do mountains with my Z compared to that "steep ditch".
65hoss,

I mean you no disrespect, matter of fact I have the upmost respect for your responses on a lot of issues. Now that doesn't appear to be a extreme steep ditch and I am able to cut steeper, but I also think you should take a second look and make some secondary observations.

One is this ditch does not 'look' steep in the picture, but take a second look at the close up area on the roadway side. Second, it appears to me that the ditch rounds the corner and continues left. Turns make for another challenge as well.

Also, considering my area, I have similar and steeper ditchlines. But take another look at the picture and add an incline into the mix. What I mean is imagine the whole property was sloped from the driveway crossing to the nearest light pole. Now that's the kind of crap I deal with.

You may say so what? The thing is, you can mow a pitched ditchline uphill. But the downhill way, forget it. All ditchline passes on both sides have to be made in the same direction. Otherwise you slide to the bottom of the ditch and you have to work your way out of it. So I think Flex's comment is very fitting here....

Yea - the 4wd allows me to get into places without planning. Just go - flip to 4wd if you need to back up a hill with the extra weight, or go anywhere. Thanks Brad

Also, on that note, you must also take into account Flex is running wing decks. So while you and I may be able to mow the ditch pictured, neither of our mowers would handle that slope with his wing decks attached. No way.

Envy Lawn Service
01-12-2005, 09:33 PM
Mickhippy,

Looks like people in your area will build anywhere, like they do here. I call them cliff dwellers. The land area in your pic is a common here. Steep, bumpy and not well graded, if graded at all.

In my area, I think the trend of building is such places was started out of necessity in the early days and has just became a common acceptable practice. See, back in the day, when more folks lived off the land, houses were commonly built on hillsides, overlooking the bottoms. This was done to preserve the maximum amount of land that was more useful for farming. Bottoms for cultivation, hillsides cleared for additional pasture and a house on the most useless steep part of the property.

I tell ya though, I'm waiting around to see what nut will come on here and claim he could cut the lawn up at the tan house with his ZTR. HA!!!

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31211

OH, by the way, sorry for your run of sour luck on that slash job. I hope nothing was damaged or severely overheated. I also hope warranty does cover the repairs. But I have an ugly feeling it might not. They may want to charge you for neglecting to keep it clean....

65hoss
01-12-2005, 11:17 PM
65hoss,

I mean you no disrespect, matter of fact I have the upmost respect for your responses on a lot of issues. Now that doesn't appear to be a extreme steep ditch and I am able to cut steeper, but I also think you should take a second look and make some secondary observations.

One is this ditch does not 'look' steep in the picture, but take a second look at the close up area on the roadway side. Second, it appears to me that the ditch rounds the corner and continues left. Turns make for another challenge as well.

Also, considering my area, I have similar and steeper ditchlines. But take another look at the picture and add an incline into the mix. What I mean is imagine the whole property was sloped from the driveway crossing to the nearest light pole. Now that's the kind of crap I deal with.

You may say so what? The thing is, you can mow a pitched ditchline uphill. But the downhill way, forget it. All ditchline passes on both sides have to be made in the same direction. Otherwise you slide to the bottom of the ditch and you have to work your way out of it. So I think Flex's comment is very fitting here....



Also, on that note, you must also take into account Flex is running wing decks. So while you and I may be able to mow the ditch pictured, neither of our mowers would handle that slope with his wing decks attached. No way.


I've looked at it very closely. Nothing of that is real bad. Little steeper on the roadside, but nothing I don't see some.

By the way, you made my head spin trying to figure out all of that you posted. :)

Soupy
01-13-2005, 01:01 AM
Heres the pics....

This statement is not directed at Mickhippy, but is directed toward the photo's. This is one of those photo's that I look at and shrug my shoulders and give you the benefit of doubt (If you said that you could not mow it with a ZTR). I can't see the whole layout of the land from the picture, but I would say I could cut up past were your tractor is siting. The only part that I can see that might be a little tricky, is the very top of the hill over on the right side. I would give it a try, but wouldn't swear that I could cut it. I also wouldn't want to either. I think I could travel down and stop were you are stopped too, But my hustler has drum brakes. It would definitely be scary trying to go down at that steepest point (the one I mentioned earlier), but if the mower did start to lose control I think I could slow it down by midway down.

Mickhippy, Did you cut the whole hill using your tractor and how did it handle? can you cut the top left part of the hill going sideways and still turn around to take the next pass? I am trying to picture how a tractor turns on a steep incline. A ztr will just whip around which doesn't cause a lot of unnecessary movement on the hill.

It doesn't really matter if my mower could actually cut that hill or not. I am not claiming 100% that it will, but I wouldn't want to either. That hill would be very bad on the hydro pumps and I just don't need to work my equipment that way. I have not found any hill that my mower would not cut before I decide that the wear on the mower parts are to much. I guess what I am trying to say, My Hustler Z's hill handling capabilities goes beyond the capabilities of the hydro pump wear.

Maybe Hydro's on a tractor are different, I don't know. It all boils down to what your conditions are. We don't have conditions in my area that would call for anything other then a ZTR. If I used a tractor I would lose efficiency, not to mention my arms would be wore out from all the turning.

To each his own....

Mickhippy
01-13-2005, 02:07 AM
OH, by the way, sorry for your run of sour luck on that slash job. I hope nothing was damaged or severely overheated. I also hope warranty does cover the repairs. But I have an ugly feeling it might not. They may want to charge you for neglecting to keep it clean....

I couldnt believe when I saw such a large block in the middle of suburbia. Must be the last one left in that area. You'd freak if you saw some of blocks some houses are on. Although, your in a steep area yourself aint ya!

Turns out the over heating caused a relay to break or something. Its designed that way so no more damage can be done. Saying that, I need a new water pump! It has to be flown over from the US and I should be going again on Tuesday! Heres hoping anyway!

I have a really good relationship with my dealler and he will make sure its covered under warrenty. Also, there have been a few problems with water pumps in other early 595's. Some seal split and have to replace hole pump! :help:
I might add, this guy even sends work my way! Top bloke!


That hill really wasnt that steep I reckon. Its just that I know how much you lot like pics! hehe
Actually, on the right hand side it is pretty steep. I had it in 4wd while going down it to be safe. I would expect a ZTR to be able to do that block. If it cant, there no good to me!
The hill sorta levels out at the top so turning around wasnt a problem. On the bottom, I just turned on the road!

Soupy, I did the hole block with that JD pictured! Did the first cut ok but it needed a second go over. This is when I had the problem with the deck engagement half way through second cut. Luckily I'd done most of the more noticable stringers and quicky hit a few with the trimmer to take the top off.

Wasnt one of my better jobs by any means but someone had to do it and $150 in my pocket is better than someone elses!

Now just have to wait for that pump! Will be 2 big days behind now so not happy!

Ahhhhhhhh, its all fun and games isnt it gentlemen! :dizzy:

Soupy
01-13-2005, 02:15 AM
Soupy, I did the hole block with that JD pictured! Did the first cut ok but it needed a second go over. This is when I had the problem with the deck engagement half way through second cut. Luckily I'd done most of the more noticable stringers and quicky hit a few with the trimmer to take the top off.

Wasnt one of my better jobs by any means but someone had to do it and $150 in my pocket is better than someone elses!

Now just have to wait for that pump! Will be 2 big days behind now so not happy!
Ahhhhhhhh, its all fun and games isnt it gentlemen! :dizzy:

Even with warranty work, I would say that it wasn't worth it. Well, how much is that in U.S currency? I still doubt it would be worth a couple of days with out my mower, plus wear and tear. I hope you get it back soon.

Mickhippy
01-13-2005, 02:35 AM
Hind sight is a great thing! Ive done heaps of jobs like/worse than that one and havnt had a problem. Problem is, it only take one screw up to make it not worth it and yes, I'm srewed up for today and tomorrow. Big money making days too. Will do them as soon as I get machine back so make some of it up anyway. But honestly, rather stressin about it! :dizzy:

I got around US$110 for it. Au$150 for just over an hour is really good money here. To good to knock back. I would of done it cheaper, just 150 came out of my mouth and she agreed! I know, most of you wouldnt even look at a block like that for $100 but we live in 2 different world when it comes to this business. eg, a Hustler Super Z is $20000! Thats alot of mowing to pay for a Z!

There are so many mowing guys here and we really have to do what we can get. Unlike most of the pics I've seen of US lawns, your mowers have got it so easy its not funny.

On the bright side, I hope to do that block once a month! :dizzy:

Tonyr
01-13-2005, 05:59 PM
Mickhippy,

Looks like people in your area will build anywhere, like they do here. I call them cliff dwellers. The land area in your pic is a common here. Steep, bumpy and not well graded, if graded at all.

In my area, I think the trend of building is such places was started out of necessity in the early days and has just became a common acceptable practice. See, back in the day, when more folks lived off the land, houses were commonly built on hillsides, overlooking the bottoms. This was done to preserve the maximum amount of land that was more useful for farming. Bottoms for cultivation, hillsides cleared for additional pasture and a house on the most useless steep part of the property.

I tell ya though, I'm waiting around to see what nut will come on here and claim he could cut the lawn up at the tan house with his ZTR. HA!!!

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31211

OH, by the way, sorry for your run of sour luck on that slash job. I hope nothing was damaged or severely overheated. I also hope warranty does cover the repairs. But I have an ugly feeling it might not. They may want to charge you for neglecting to keep it clean....



Hi Blokes!

That job of Mick's is typical of a large percentage of work we ride on guys here must do, I realise a bush hog as you call them, we call them slashers, would be faster, but the nature of the beast is a lot of clients don't realise grass grows, yet after it's cut want it to look like a lawn so they get a ride on in....and the other reason is they think us mower guys will be cheaper than big tractors, er, wrong!

I bought my toro last feb. to do the exact type of work in Mick's pic, btw, in my demo in that type of conditions here the Hustler Super Z handled it easy, even with it's choked deck.

Our conditions here a lot of the time are rough, not many like the pics to guys post of nice lush stripey lawns, here it's rough, ultra dusty, very neglected, and very competitive....we clear as much scrub like these pics as we do "lawns"......another mentality I've noticed
is the 1.5 acre house blocks now let the grass, incl. front to get up to 2 plus feet tall then get a slasher in, and just roundup along edges, nasty!

All to save 30 bucks!

You guys in America have it so different, so much easier, a whole different industry. Here we have to flog expensive machines to death just to make wages. my $24000 toro z588e will be stuffed in 5 years....but what can ya do, you certainly can not be fussy here, you can not think there is plenty to go around and not take the rough stuff, rocks and debris is the only thing that I turn from, jobs like Micks....I wish I could do them full time, better than the nasty crap I have up here, makes that look tame.

And Mick, that job, a Z would do it easy....trust me.

With the goat I just open up the baffle, put my oldest blades on and go, too easy. then a quick run over at the end to knock down stringers...


Ha ha h, I just love the old, throw ya sh!t over the fence on the vacant block trick, some here even through rubbish over and cover it with lawn clippings! Now that's a mess! lol. yeah, those clippings sure get dusty!
I now often drive around them, don't wan't to hit a hidden brick, wire etc.

Friggin clients here are freaks when it comes to property maintenance, they pay top bucks to live in the expensive areas, but too tight to get reg. mowing!

now I've put my buck fifty in, I'm off to conquer a few jungles myself....

Soupy
01-13-2005, 06:09 PM
Yea I figured I could cut that with a ZTR, but I didn't want to say 100% because The house on top does make it look a little steeper and pictures are hard to judge sometimes. I was only concerned about the very top on the right.

Tonyr
01-13-2005, 06:29 PM
The top right house, that fill looks step....from the pic that is a job I would have to decline....hard to tell, but steep fill can be slippery due to our very short grass ands easy to tear up.

Mick....that house yard look steep do ya remember?

Mickhippy
01-13-2005, 06:41 PM
Tony, That fill area! I remember driving past it thinking how happy I am I didnt have to mow it. It was real steep. Would have to be done with a pushy and that would be a struggle with out footy boots. I wouldnt go near it personally! Think of it as just off verticle! hehee Na, probably 50deg or so! Bloody steep! Sorta double the steepness of where the mower is!

Most of the vacant bloke was ok for steepness but it did get steep just right of where the mower is in that pic. Again, pics are very hard to judge from but trust me, it was steep.

It should easily be done with a Z I reckon. If ya started sliding it leveled out some along the foot path and then there was the 12" drop down to the road.
No Worries!

Flex-Deck
01-13-2005, 06:56 PM
Actually the original poster on the other thread was talking about a sub-tractor. Nobody else is. A BX series is a real tractor but very compact. Not the same thing as the garden tractors being discussed. Yes there are better ones than the local chainstore $999 special, but even the $3k ones are not the same as a BX or a Ztr. A BX with loader is $10k-$12k depending on dealer and part of the country. Everyone in these posts are not talking about these. All these guys talking "tractors" are talking about $1k-$3k tractors for the most part, the "getting started in the business tractor".

The x595 is a very well built ($13,000+) mower. It is very comparable as to stout, as any ZTR, or Commercial mower. I have no idea as to why JD does not consider it a commercial mower. It can be outfitted with loaders, pto, 3 point etc. Thanks Brad

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 04:37 AM
The x595 is a very well built ($13,000+) mower. It is very comparable as to stout, as any ZTR, or Commercial mower. I have no idea as to why JD does not consider it a commercial mower. It can be outfitted with loaders, pto, 3 point etc. Thanks Brad


G'day mate! Was hoping you'd pop in!

I reckon, put a 7 iron deck on it and it would be commercial! IMO

Bloody good little tractor. The problem I had could of happened to any machine out there. But I actually told about it! I wonder how many times people tell the true story on there mowers?

Everything you read on here and elsewhere is all good, never a problem! I reckon thats bullsh!t!

I'm just being honest about it all. The good, the bad! I wish everyone would tell pros and cons of there mowers. Would make for better reading if nothing else!

And..........

Might even help on the choice of a new mower! :cool2:

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 06:18 AM
The problem I had could of happened to any machine out there. But I actually told about it! I wonder how many times people tell the true story on there mowers?

Everything you read on here and elsewhere is all good, never a problem! I reckon thats bullsh!t!

I'm just being honest about it all. The good, the bad! I wish everyone would tell pros and cons of there mowers. Would make for better reading if nothing else!

And..........

Might even help on the choice of a new mower! :cool2:

Amen....... Amen.......

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 06:55 AM
Envy,

You see people writing about how they can do this and that, but.... NEVER any pics or proof!

What do ya think, if you wanna talk how good they go mowing hills, I say, "prove it with ya mower on the hill pics!"


Enough of the chit chat! Put ya money where ya mouths at you lot!!


I dare ya's! heeeee :p

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 07:21 AM
Heres an example! This guys a regular on this site! He came out of his way to prove to me how good a Z is! He came to my place, showed me what his Dog can do and then I got him drunk! :cool2: :dizzy:

This is a stand up man!

Check pic....

Soupy
01-14-2005, 09:41 AM
Heres an example! This guys a regular on this site! He came out of his way to prove to me how good a Z is! He came to my place, showed me what his Dog can do and then I got him drunk! :cool2: :dizzy:

This is a stand up man!

Check pic....

You have already been proved that it can be done. Why does everyone else have to prove it too. I know you didn't mean to personally attack anyone, but to say that everyone should prove that they know how to drive a lawn mower is silly. If I say I can mow a hill, and you know the mower can do it. Then why should I need to prove that I can do it as well.

It is others saying it can't be done, but you have been shown it can. It should only take one picture to prove that the guy that says it can't be done is wrong. Just like I agree that some of you have extreme conditions that are out of the realm of safe driving conditions. I don't say you are wrong that you can do it. I say that you are wrong for saying a ZTR sucks on hills. We debate a little, but I don't call anyone a lier and say prove it.

Did any of that make sense :) Also, there are a million threads about mower problems, so yes people do tell the truth. I guess you guys expect every mower to have problems? Not everyone abuses (I'm not saying you abused your equipment) their equipment, so they have a good chance of not having a problem to tell you. I have voiced my opinions on the poor quality of cut one of my mowers had when I first got it. The deck was not level properly and they fixed it. I didn't try to sweep it under the rug. It still isn't the best cutting mower on the planet (it leaves a little more tire track then I care for), but it is good enough to please the customer.

You guys and your conspiracy theory's :dizzy:

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 10:16 AM
Good pic there. Brings up another point where the truth gets stretched a bit....
That slope looks steep and sorta intimidating, and it is...
Riding that slope would feel like 45 degrees or more, no doubt...

But that Dane is actually coming down a 25 degree slope.

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 10:18 AM
Soupy, I really didnt mean anything sh!tty with what I wrote! I'd had a few drinks and it probably didnt come out right! As usually does when I'm sh!t faced! :dizzy:

All I meant was, lets see some pics of some of the real bad lawns that you lot do! Steep, long, muddy, dog poo, etc etc!

I dont mean it as a p!zzin contest, just be interesting what others call harsh or too much for interest sake!

Know what I mean!

Actually, I've seen heaps of posts from people sayin what they can do this and that etc. But theres never any proof! Is it wrong of me to call them out and prove it! I'm not sure really! Its an open question! Not directed at anyone in particular, just everyone!
Whats wrong with it? I'm not saying that grass I cut was the worst in the world but at least I'll stand up and put my money where my mouth is and prove I do what I said I do!

You asked... Why does everyone have to prove it! ...
Well, because it would be interesting viewing, a good talking point and give some good indication of what there mower is capable of! I for one would like to see pics of some of the bad stuff people mow, because I believe you can tell how good something is when its at its worst. I'm in the market for a ZTR myself and have seen 100's of pics of nice lush green lawns. Thats not what its like here, we have to do everything from nice lawns to way worse than what I did in the pic!
Also..... Why not?

To end this, I didnt mean to insult anyone. Been a good thread!
If ya's want to post pics of the bad stuff you do, do it with ya mower in the pic! Thats all I ask!

If not,

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 10:26 AM
Good pic there. Brings up another point where the truth gets stretched a bit....
That slope looks steep and sorta intimidating, and it is...
Riding that slope would feel like 45 degrees or more, no doubt...

But that Dane is actually coming down a 25 degree slope.

A couple of time when he hit the top to fast, he was gooooooooooooooone!

I reckon its steeper than 25deg! Use the trees with a protractor! The pic isnt straight! I took it standing on the hill!

Heres another pic ....

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 10:29 AM
Anyways, now... the problem I find with ZTR's are these...

What if:
The slope is wet?
Has a tree or obstacle that you must navagate around?
Ends at a tree line, fence, retaining wall, body of water?

Now, forget the wet.... when you have to do additional navigation, aside from straight line driving down or you are forced to stop on the hill, on the way down and turn around.... well then, now you got problems.

Soupy
01-14-2005, 10:40 AM
Soupy, I really didnt mean anything sh!tty with what I wrote! I'd had a few drinks and it probably didnt come out right! As usually does when I'm sh!t faced! :dizzy:

All I meant was, lets see some pics of some of the real bad lawns that you lot do! Steep, long, muddy, dog poo, etc etc!

I dont mean it as a p!zzin contest, just be interesting what others call harsh or too much for interest sake!

Know what I mean!

Actually, I've seen heaps of posts from people sayin what they can do this and that etc. But theres never any proof! Is it wrong of me to call them out and prove it! I'm not sure really! Its an open question! Not directed at anyone in particular, just everyone!
Whats wrong with it? I'm not saying that grass I cut was the worst in the world but at least I'll stand up and put my money where my mouth is and prove I do what I said I do!

You asked... Why does everyone have to prove it! ...
Well, because it would be interesting viewing, a good talking point and give some good indication of what there mower is capable of! I for one would like to see pics of some of the bad stuff people mow, because I believe you can tell how good something is when its at its worst. I'm in the market for a ZTR myself and have seen 100's of pics of nice lush green lawns. Thats not what its like here, we have to do everything from nice lawns to way worse than what I did in the pic!
Also..... Why not?

To end this, I didnt mean to insult anyone. Been a good thread!
If ya's want to post pics of the bad stuff you do, do it with ya mower in the pic! Thats all I ask!

If not,

I know you didn't, and that is why I mentioned that I knew you weren't trying to attack anyone personally. I agree pictures are nice (I need to start taking more pictures, but it's work and I never think too). I was just referring to the prove it suggestion and the fact that it has been mentioned that there is a conspiracy going on.

I wish I had pictures to show what a mower can cut, but I don't. You have shown some pictures that back up the statement that both mowers can cut hills good. So there really isn't anything to prove (you have done that). I was only referring to statements that a ZTR sucks on hills. I think we can see by your pictures that they don't. Yea someone will come back and show a bigger hill, but how many ZTR owners cut hills that large or larger? If you live on mountains then you might not want a ZTR. But to say they suck on hills is wrong.

My whole point is that the everyday LCO doesn't cut mountains (that is another reason for lack of pictures). A tractor is not as good for my operation as a ZTR and the opposite might be true for you and others. I never disagreed. I only said that for the common LCO, I think a ZTR is a better productive mower to use. It is fact that there are more LCO's with ZTR's then tractors. To try and argue different would be useless and to say there is a conspiracy isn't going to change the facts.

Just like your thread wasn't directed to anyone, the same holds true for my thread. :)

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 10:41 AM
Now, forget the wet.... when you have to do additional navigation, aside from straight line driving down or you are forced to stop on the hill, on the way down and turn around.... well then, now you got problems.

This is one of my BIG probs/concerns! Theres always trees on my properties!Ya slide down to a tree. Then what? Cant go back, cant spin. Call in the 4wd X595 to pull it out! haaaa Couldnt resist!

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 10:43 AM
A couple of time when he hit the top to fast, he was gooooooooooooooone!

I reckon its steeper than 25deg! Use the trees with a protractor! The pic isnt straight! I took it standing on the hill!

Heres another pic ....

Yeah... it's so hard to tell with pictures. It seems cameras can't seem to capture the true nature of slopes most of the time. Anyways, my general point was, "as illustrated" in the picture the Dane is pitched 25 degrees and I was using that for illustration purposes only, just to help get my point across.

If you still do that one, you should take out a slope meter and check it. I bought one a few years ago for this same arguement.... because of truth stretching and because cameras seldom do slopes justice. So I bought one just to prove some points.

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 10:54 AM
This is one of my BIG probs/concerns! Theres always trees on my properties!Ya slide down to a tree. Then what? Cant go back, cant spin. Call in the 4wd X595 to pull it out! haaaa Couldnt resist!

You have the issue dead on right there. You are stuck.
Not only that though, try arcing around a tree ring and see what happens!

A lot of properties around here have slopes that end at tree lines, fences, ect. Or they end at drop offs like retaining walls, tall curbs, or more commonly an 80 drop off into a road side ditch. Then there are those rediculous places that are created at commercial sites by the grading. Unreal some of the stuff I see....

Mickhippy
01-14-2005, 11:09 AM
Soupy, No worries here mate! I dont think I said ZTRs are sh!t on hill but if I did, thats what I heard from a few people on this and other sites! Thats basically what I want disproved. I thought my only point, from when I first got into this thread was that "my" 4wd little booger tractor can go up and come down way steeper hills, more safely than any 2wd... anything! Thats why 4wds were invented wasnt it, for tough terrain?

All that aside, I appreciate your input! (Hang on, this isnt my thread! Damn, sorry to who ever started this!) hehe

See, all this conversation etc is helping me in deciding on weather or not to get a Z! I am, quite soon I hope!

The idea behind the... The Prove it comment (I did say put pics of ya mower) was to help me! I need a good all round, up, down, long grass, delicate grass cutting machine that can do what was in those pics, and more!

Point is, I was going somewhere with all this. Wasn't just a bagging comment!
ZTR's are a relatively new concept over here so the more input I can get on similar working conditions, the better!

Im sure you understand!

Its like 2am here, been drinkin for 12 hrs now. Starting to feel.... Wheres the vomit emote? heeee

Soupy
01-14-2005, 11:24 AM
Anyways, now... the problem I find with ZTR's are these...

What if:
The slope is wet?
Has a tree or obstacle that you must navagate around?
Ends at a tree line, fence, retaining wall, body of water?

Now, forget the wet.... when you have to do additional navigation, aside from straight line driving down or you are forced to stop on the hill, on the way down and turn around.... well then, now you got problems.

Yes the 4 wheel tractor will cut a mountain better then a ZTR. But the slasher (as you guys call them) would have cut that tall grass easier. It doesn't change the fact that the ZTR is the better mower for everyday LCO's. If they were not then they wouldn't out sell the tractor in this market. It's fact and it isn't a conspiracy or cult.

The thread wasn't about which tractor holds the best hill, or lets fine things that a tractor can do that a ZTR can't, or vise versa. It is about ZTR vs tractor for grass cutting.

It has been stated that the ZTR could cut Mickhippy"s hill. Now if you cut hills larger then that everyday then you should buy the proper equipment. I would choose to pass on the one or two hills I come across bigger because it isn't profitable to have the equipment for such few jobs. Just like I pass on cutting overgrown lots because I don't own a slasher.

Envy has worse conditions then most and still chooses to pursue the ZTR market. Why?

Soupy
01-14-2005, 11:41 AM
Soupy, No worries here mate! I dont think I said ZTRs are sh!t on hill but if I did, thats what I heard from a few people on this and other sites! Thats basically what I want disproved. I thought my only point, from when I first got into this thread was that "my" 4wd little booger tractor can go up and come down way steeper hills, more safely than any 2wd... anything! Thats why 4wds were invented wasnt it, for tough terrain?

All that aside, I appreciate your input! (Hang on, this isnt my thread! Damn, sorry to who ever started this!) hehe

See, all this conversation etc is helping me in deciding on weather or not to get a Z! I am, quite soon I hope!

The idea behind the... The Prove it comment (I did say put pics of ya mower) was to help me! I need a good all round, up, down, long grass, delicate grass cutting machine that can do what was in those pics, and more!

Point is, I was going somewhere with all this. Wasn't just a bagging comment!
ZTR's are a relatively new concept over here so the more input I can get on similar working conditions, the better!

Im sure you understand!

Its like 2am here, been drinkin for 12 hrs now. Starting to feel.... Wheres the vomit emote? heeee

I think it is widely admitted that Hustler is one of the better ZTR's for hills. They are very smooth so you don't have the jerky action to contend with, and they have drum breaks. They also have a low center of gravity. I would suggest you look into one. Sorry I have no pictures. I am sure there are other great mowers that I have no experience with that are good on hills too.

I know you have a hard task trying to shop for a ZTR because of your location. I have no experience with JD, but I would think they would be the cheapest option for you because they have more overseas presence then most (why I won't buy one here in america). I'm sure you have demoed JD already though.

Good luck in finding a ZTR that meets your needs. You might just be better off (dollar for dollar) to stick with what you have. This is me being honest and admitting that a ZTR isn't perfect for everyone. If it is only going to speed production on some of your properties then it might not be worth the purchase.

Flex-Deck
01-14-2005, 02:33 PM
Wow - a bunch of good posts on here - and for a change everyone seems to be pretty honest about what their machines will do -

1. I think the crux of the matter is that we do not compare Sears MTD type tractors, we compare 400 series JD or the big Kubotas or whatever.

2. "For the average LCO a ZTR is the best" I have no arguement there - But I have ditches and too much steep terrain and or rough terrain that limits you to 5 mph anyway. There for I am and always will be a tractor fan, unless my clientels yards suddenly get level and smooth.

3. Appreciate the support (as a tractor fan) of Mikkhappy) Us x595 owners have to stick together - It would appear that it is 2 against 24998 on this forum. hahahaha. :blob3:

Soupy
01-14-2005, 03:08 PM
Wow - a bunch of good posts on here - and for a change everyone seems to be pretty honest about what their machines will do -

1. I think the crux of the matter is that we do not compare Sears MTD type tractors, we compare 400 series JD or the big Kubotas or whatever.

2. "For the average LCO a ZTR is the best" I have no arguement there - But I have ditches and too much steep terrain and or rough terrain that limits you to 5 mph anyway. There for I am and always will be a tractor fan, unless my clientels yards suddenly get level and smooth.

3. Appreciate the support (as a tractor fan) of Mikkhappy) Us x595 owners have to stick together - It would appear that it is 2 against 24998 on this forum. hahahaha. :blob3:

You no doubt have the best mower for your conditions. I hope you never thought I thought otherwise. I have always just been one that stands up to the comparison to everyday LCO's on this site. For the majority.

I have seen your properties in pictures and I have yet to see any ditches or hills that a ZTR could not do easy and fast. Like the ditch you posted on this thread. I could cut that faster with my ZTR then a same size cut tractor. I could turn around at the end of the ditch and be on my second pass while the tractor is maneuvering his tun and wearing out the operator's arms. So with cut comparison out of the equation, I would say a ZTR would be better for that ditch (not counting the million acres that go with it).

Flex-Deck
01-14-2005, 03:15 PM
Soupy - appreciate your support, but have to disagree with your comment about being 1/2 way down the line after the turn.

These new foot controlled hydrostatic - short turn radius tractors - even with the original 54" 60" decks can J turn right with the ZTR. We no longer have to take maneuverability out of our equation. We are within a microsecond of you now, and gaining. LOL "I am serious - I have run ZTR's too" :rolleyes:

Soupy
01-14-2005, 03:27 PM
Soupy - appreciate your support, but have to disagree with your comment about being 1/2 way down the line after the turn.

These new foot controlled hydrostatic - short turn radius tractors - even with the original 54" 60" decks can J turn right with the ZTR. We no longer have to take maneuverability out of our equation. We are within a microsecond of you now, and gaining. LOL "I am serious - I have run ZTR's too" :rolleyes:

I never said 1/2 way, but I was thinking it :) So basically you are saying that the new tractors are actually ZTR Tractors. I guess all the people I see turning on tractors in my area don't use these new tractors. They look like they are on the barrel ride at the carnival with all the arm movement :)

Flex-Deck
01-14-2005, 05:13 PM
I never said 1/2 way, but I was thinking it :) So basically you are saying that the new tractors are actually ZTR Tractors. I guess all the people I see turning on tractors in my area don't use these new tractors. They look like they are on the barrel ride at the carnival with all the arm movement :)

LOL - I have to agree to that also - Have seen a lot of comments from ZTR people that say "Operator experience is important - especially when in unlevel terrain, and trying to get turns done without tearing up the turf, _see posts on J and K turns etc." I will not pretend that I do not see very inefficient tractor operators. I have to laugh many times a year when I see an LCO mowing a property next door, and it does not matter if it is ZTR - Tractor or whatever. Inefficiencies are born into every machine if you allow them.
PS. We are not ZTR Tractors, We are just approaching the quickness of the turn, but still have a front steering system that holds a steep side hill without wanting to head down the hill. (I still love the steering wheel that is connected to two wheels that are pointing in the direction I want to go.LOL :blob3: )

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 05:38 PM
I never said 1/2 way, but I was thinking it :) So basically you are saying that the new tractors are actually ZTR Tractors. I guess all the people I see turning on tractors in my area don't use these new tractors. They look like they are on the barrel ride at the carnival with all the arm movement :)

With late model tractors and L&G tractors that was an issue. Huge turning radius and no power steering. My arms got one heck of a workout each day. Not the muscle building type, the total exhaustion type.

But machines with a tight turning radius and low effort steering or better yet, power steering, nips that issue right in the bud. You can steer them like a truck... with the palm of your hand.

You also gotta realize the X595 for instance falls in between a L&G tractor and a sub-compact tractor. Sorta combines the best of the two. Anyways, as Flex said, they can J-turn pretty much right with the ZTR time-wise. But you must also realize that Flex is happy with his tight turn radius, which happens to be 28"..... which frankly is a rather large turning radius for today's mowers. Of course you would have to step 'down' from the X595, but today's 2wd L&G tractors have a tight turning radius half that size. Most have 14" to 18" for a turn radius for a typical 2 wheel steer.

Soupy
01-14-2005, 05:50 PM
Flex doesn't need a tight turning radius with his setup.

I wonder why you even demo ZTR's anymore.

Flex-Deck
01-14-2005, 05:57 PM
With late model tractors and L&G tractors that was an issue. Huge turning radius and no power steering. My arms got one heck of a workout each day. Not the muscle building type, the total exhaustion type.

But machines with a tight turning radius and low effort steering or better yet, power steering, nips that issue right in the bud. You can steer them like a truck... with the palm of your hand.

You also gotta realize the X595 for instance falls in between a L&G tractor and a sub-compact tractor. Sorta combines the best of the two. Anyways, as Flex said, they can J-turn pretty much right with the ZTR time-wise. But you must also realize that Flex is happy with his tight turn radius, which happens to be 28"..... which frankly is a rather large turning radius for today's mowers. Of course you would have to step 'down' from the X595, but today's 2wd L&G tractors have a tight turning radius half that size. Most have 14" to 18" for a turn radius for a typical 2 wheel steer.

In 4 wheel drive I have 28" turning radius - with the flip of a lever - on the go - I have about 14" turn radius. and by the way, my machine arcs around a tree that is 1 1/2 foot wide, and I can do a continuous circle without damage, whereas a ZTR swings the deck in, then the back wheel hits the tree, then it has to back up, reorientate about two to three times to mow around a circle that has something in the middle - like a tree trunk or stop sign post or whatever.

Do not even attempt to tell me the above statement is not true, because I have run a ZTR before. Thanks. Brad. PS. I do not really believe that there are many ZTR operators on this forum that have run the new tractors that are out there.

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 05:59 PM
Yes the 4 wheel tractor will cut a mountain better then a ZTR. But the slasher (as you guys call them) would have cut that tall grass easier. It doesn't change the fact that the ZTR is the better mower for everyday LCO's. If they were not then they wouldn't out sell the tractor in this market. It's fact and it isn't a conspiracy or cult.

The thread wasn't about which tractor holds the best hill, or lets fine things that a tractor can do that a ZTR can't, or vise versa. It is about ZTR vs tractor for grass cutting.

It has been stated that the ZTR could cut Mickhippy"s hill. Now if you cut hills larger then that everyday then you should buy the proper equipment. I would choose to pass on the one or two hills I come across bigger because it isn't profitable to have the equipment for such few jobs. Just like I pass on cutting overgrown lots because I don't own a slasher.

Envy has worse conditions then most and still chooses to pursue the ZTR market. Why?

Well Soupy, I'm not biased to the point I'm blinded like a lot of people are. I can see the positives of both types of machines. But I'm also willing to discuss the negatives of both. Likewise, I own and operate both types of machines.

Soupy
01-14-2005, 06:06 PM
Well Soupy, I'm not biased to the point I'm blinded like a lot of people are. I can see the positives of both types of machines. But I'm also willing to discuss the negatives of both. Likewise, I own and operate both types of machines.

My point is that maybe your negative experience are not normal for the average ZTR owner. It's not a conspiracy. Not everybody has your turf conditions.

Soupy
01-14-2005, 06:09 PM
In 4 wheel drive I have 28" turning radius - with the flip of a lever - on the go - I have about 14" turn radius. and by the way, my machine arcs around a tree that is 1 1/2 foot wide, and I can do a continuous circle without damage, whereas a ZTR swings the deck in, then the back wheel hits the tree, then it has to back up, reorientate about two to three times to mow around a circle that has something in the middle - like a tree trunk or stop sign post or whatever.

Do not even attempt to tell me the above statement is not true, because I have run a ZTR before. Thanks. Brad. PS. I do not really believe that there are many ZTR operators on this forum that have run the new tractors that are out there.

That's what trimmers are for. Don't tell me you still don't have to trim that stop sign anyway.

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 06:12 PM
Totally agreeable Flex.... I've brought up the very same points about the ZTR before. And as I've said before.... sorta negates the point of the zero turn. As I've said before, there are many things I like about ZTR mowers. Ironically the zero turn part just doesn't happen to be one of them. To me the negatives out weigh the benefits.

Anyways, as far as your turning radius, you should double check that and have John Deere correct that if need be. They advertise 28" (2WD) and 48.5" (4WD). I dunno though, maybe you are referring to your uncut radius with the flex decks on. I had just assumed you had a zero uncut radius with them or close to it.

Tonyr
01-14-2005, 06:19 PM
Just want to quickly add how/why we ride on guys get/do the long grass/ ferral jobs, the popularity of slashers in populated areas is falling, a slasher when cutting long/thick grass leave huge 'wind rows' which harbout vermin/snakes and looks crap, and the slasher guys don't go close to trees or offer trimming along fences or curb etc sercices, the idea is we go in, battle the jungle only if the client wants regular cuts e.g monthly, 6 weekly etc.

After the 1st clean up with our climate repeat cuts are high profit.

People are starting to come around that they want their investment to be properly maintained, not just ran over by a slasher a few times a year.

Mowing of vacant blocks is the best money earner, if I could do these and no ressie props I'd be happy!

Compare a double mower cut vacant block to a slasher/ bush hog cut prop with big ugly windrows....easy choice which I'd choose if I owned the property.

Mowers get into corners too, slashers just drive the perimeter then do laps, nothing tidy....they charge $50 for 1/2 acre, 10 mins tops, these guys make the ral money but do a **** job. Slashers are for rough jobs and paddocks, not vacant blocks imo....same job I'd charge between $60 and $80, a lot of people are happy to pay extra. it is a good market/niche!

Soupy
01-14-2005, 06:29 PM
Totally agreeable Flex.... I've brought up the very same points about the ZTR before. And as I've said before.... sorta negates the point of the zero turn. As I've said before, there are many things I like about ZTR mowers. Ironically the zero turn part just doesn't happen to be one of them. To me the negatives out weigh the benefits.

Anyways, as far as your turning radius, you should double check that and have John Deere correct that if need be. They advertise 28" (2WD) and 48.5" (4WD). I dunno though, maybe you are referring to your uncut radius with the flex decks on. I had just assumed you had a zero uncut radius with them or close to it.

I don't want to hear about any new ZTR purchases then. I have always said that I agree that you might be better off with a tractor for your situations. I just don't know why you knock the ZTR so bad but own one, and keep demoing them. Why not just stay with what works for you. Not to be rude, but I don't think you would be happy with any mower. You expect to much out of one mower.

Flex-Deck
01-14-2005, 07:07 PM
Envy - you are right - my turning radius is 48-28 - but for me it does not matter. Thanks for the heads up;

Envy Lawn Service
01-14-2005, 08:31 PM
Oh... OK. It's just numbers. It seems you are happy with 48-28. That's all that matters. Turns tight enough to keep you happy and still be a useable asset. That's good enough for me...

Envy Lawn Service
01-15-2005, 12:19 AM
I wonder why you even demo ZTR's anymore.

My point is that maybe your negative experience are not normal for the average ZTR owner. It's not a conspiracy. Not everybody has your turf conditions.

I don't want to hear about any new ZTR purchases then. I have always said that I agree that you might be better off with a tractor for your situations. I just don't know why you knock the ZTR so bad but own one, and keep demoing them. Why not just stay with what works for you. Not to be rude, but I don't think you would be happy with any mower. You expect to much out of one mower.

Soupy my man, seems maybe this is not so good a topic for you. Your point is well taken. I know the majority of guys out there are not faced with the type of terrain the minority of us are. If a large amount of developed land wasn't flat, ZTR's would be highly unpopular. This is the same reason ZTR's have just now barley caught on in my area. Up until the last year or so I could probably count on one hand the number of ZTR's I saw in the field. In certain regions of my service area that is still true today.

Anyways, look, you have your position on ZTR's, which I respect and for the most part agree with totally. But at the same time I also have a similar position, but with a twist. Mine is ZTR's are awesome basically and they are the simpliest to operate. But the zero turn part is not exactly it's strong suit. I find it to be a downfall. Otherwise I'm not knocking them at all as you suggest.

Maybe you are right though. Maybe I do expect to much out of one mower.

Now as to my decisions to buy, demo and make repeat ZTR purchases. Well I thought that part was understood. But I guess not. SO I'll have to think of just how to explain that as quickly and easily as possible. I'll do so and get back to it in separate reply. Thanks for drawing attention to the confusion. I think it's important that I'm properly understood.

Envy Lawn Service
01-15-2005, 01:36 AM
OK Soupy, if you can get through the reading part, you and others should have a better understanding of why I continue to demo, buy and use ZTR's in my opertation.To start with, here are quotes of my previous explaination....

PART 1
Actually, I started out with a 21" push. I've been from a 21" push to a compact tractor, everything in between and then back to a 21" push again when I decided to piddle around in lawn care again. So from then until after I became a member here in 2002, I only used various 21's, L&G tractors and compact tractors. But I had already been out there trying out zero turns with much dissatisfaction and had ruled out everything I had been on, mostly due to laughable hill performance.

But after much research, talking to few local owners and much yapping on green industry forums, I decided to demo-demo-demo with the promises I would be pleased with this brand or that brand. Most of those experiences were laughable too and left me with the belief that the majority of LCO's in other area's don't know what hills are.... just like how I laugh at my out of state family when they come visit for being amazed at the sight of what are 'mountains' to them. Just little rolling hills along the way to the mountain tour I take them on. What a hoot!!!

Anyways, I kept at it and finally 2003 was the year of the Z for me. So yeah, I finally made the leap and have been running the piss out of them for 2 years now.

I also like to keep up and stay abreast of what's available out there. I like to be ready, just in case a major shift takes place suddenly and I need to make a quick decision in order to meet demands. In other words I don't want to get caught with my pants down, shooting from the hip on a purchase to fill the need on short notice. So I am always sorta semi~ in the market for a new mower. Matter of fact, I just picked up another new Z in October. Then to top that off, I put another new one on hold just a month later at GIE. But I ended up backing out on that one for the time being.

As far as my next purchase goes, ZTR or tractor, only time will tell. I've got some soul searching to do, and I'd prefer to wait for a better preview of the upcoming season. But my hunch is a tractor style, but certainly not anything larger than a Kubota BX2230 or New Holland TC24 class. I seriously doubt it will be that big. I like smaller, compact setups that don't instill fear or intimidate.

Right now, I'm 'tuned in' on the unit I can't talk about just yet, which is smaller and weighs in lighter. But just as anything else, it has to prove itself worthy. I'll cut it no slack. So we shall see.

PART 2
Now as for my personal choices and buying decisions, I guess an explaination is in order.... To begin with, the thing is I have a love/hate relationship with Z's. There are a TON of things I do like about them. I love the mowers for the most part. I just don't care for the ride or a few personal comfort issues and I HATE the zero turn part. Don't get me wrong, it's nice, it comes in handy and it's literally such a breeze physically to operate compared to manual steering. What I hate about it is that I find more often than not, it's more of a problem to overcome than a benefit. I just feel the trade-off out weighs the benefit. I'll list a few examples sometime later on...

So love and fear keep me coming back for more. I love the heavy duty construction and the durability. The ease of maintenace design is a masterpiece. I love the speed when I find the rare oasis where I am able to take advantage of it. I love the large fuel capacity and I really really like the quality of cut.

But mostly, I keep going back out of fear. See, in the last two years, since going to Z's, I have battled relentless weather conditions that I have never had any previous experience with. Brutal rainy weather. I can't remember the last time I raised dust. In fact I don't think I ever have on a ZTR. But the point is, I'm getting flat out awesome wet weather performance out of them. I'm also a dedicated mulcher and I'm amazed at what I can go out and do in the rain. The end result is amazing. I'm out mowing between rain showers while other guys I see are sitting at home losing time and going out the next day to make a mess.

So as much as I hate the quirks, I'm afraid to ponder where I might be today without them. I could have possibly went belly-up by now. I don't know, never dealt with any extended periods of wet weather like this. Fear of the unknown is a rather powerful motivator

The above pretty much covers the biggest part of it all. In my inital ZTR purchase I was in the chase for all the much touted value of adding the ZTR to my operation. After many demos, both then and since, I find my ZTR's are well above the average on slopes. They also do a fabulous job of mulching, which I am dedicated to, and it's been a huge plus of the past 2 seasons that they do it well in the wet also.

Anyways, the point is I've grown attached to operating them and depending on them. But to me they are a dedicated use unit, so I have to maintain secondary equipment for the 'other' tasks. That shouldn't be a problem since I can use the other units for the hairy spots. So that's sorta what I've done.

But the trouble is, that's not exactly how it all worked out. The first season I found myself using the other equipment more than I really wanted to. So I got to the point where I only used it if forced. I ended up finding myself pushing the ZTR's way farther than I should have or was safe.

I was lucky I was not hurt or killed in the process before it all began to sink through my thick skull. Just because something extreme can be done once, does not mean it's reliably repeatable. After enough 'scares' it did however begin to sink in subconciously. What I found was I was beginning to make business decisons around the needs of my mowers instead of making business decisions based on the needs of my business and what jobs offered the best opportunity.

I didn't realize it at the time, but I had developed call reluctance, avoidance of cold calling or even submitting solicited bids to certain properties, just because I couldn't do the jobs with a ZTR or better yet I'd rather not try to.

So as I've already said, I have a lot of soul searching to do reguarding equipment. I think I have one alternate possibility already. But still there is a lot to do and there is a lot of financial stuff I have to take into account when crafting a plan. I've spent a lot of money, cold hard cash, not the bank's money, on expensive equipment in recent years, some of it very recently. So I also have to consider loss prevention should I make the decision to make big changes. I'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out.

Tinkerer
01-15-2005, 02:35 AM
I wouldn't doubt it if John Deere has a few prototype 4 wheel drive-4 wheel steer tractors they have been working on for the X500 series. I'm sure there is a market for it.
There is a company in western Minnesota called Geire that makes such a machine. I don't know what the turning radious is though. They are on the web, but I don't know its address. I might have the spelling of their name slightly off.

Envy Lawn Service
01-15-2005, 02:47 AM
Yeah, I've seen and brought attention to the Giere. It's called the Mountaineer. I was higly interested at one time. But the marketing for it turned out to be very limited. I'm unable to find them on the net anymore though. Maybe I have a picture somewhere. I'll check sometime.

Soupy
01-15-2005, 04:42 AM
Totally agreeable Flex.... I've brought up the very same points about the ZTR before. And as I've said before.... sorta negates the point of the zero turn. As I've said before, there are many things I like about ZTR mowers. Ironically the zero turn part just doesn't happen to be one of them. To me the negatives out weigh the benefits.

Envy, I might have mis-understood what you meant with the above statement. I thought you were talking about the whole mower, when you might have been referring to the steering alone.

It's not a bad subject for me. I am not biased, I have admitted that each mower has it's place and that not one type of mower is the best for all conditions.

I just don't agree with your conspiracy theory of people hiding facts about their ZTR's.

I would love to own a good mid sized tractor with 3 point hitch and small front loader for aerations and mulch jobs. Maybe I would find a few jobs to use it to cut too, but for everyday mowing it isn't practical for me to own at this time. I can pull a Aerator with my ZTR and I really don't do many mulch jobs at all. So it isn't something that would be a smart purchase at this time. It would be a fun toy, but I can't justify having toys in my business.

To each his own, I am not telling anyone what to buy, demo on a range of properties and buy what works best for you.

EDit: Envy, I wanted to add that I am not one of those types that are in love with their ZTR mower's. I just like debating (to much, my friends say I should have been a lawyer). I would have similar things to say if it was Hydro-Walk-behind vs tractors.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 03:24 AM
This is one of my BIG probs/concerns! Theres always trees on my properties!Ya slide down to a tree. Then what? Cant go back, cant spin. Call in the 4wd X595 to pull it out! haaaa Couldnt resist!

So you're saying that for a steep slope, say like the one on the property that had all the grass clippings, your x595 would be better than a Z? I am about to take on a property that has similar slopes and they end at a creek. It also has lots of trees. According to you and Envy, the tractor is much better suited to this. Is this right? I would greatly appreciate any advice as I am torn between the JD 737 60" and the x595 62"

Envy Lawn Service
01-29-2005, 04:23 AM
So you're saying that for a steep slope, say like the one on the property that had all the grass clippings, your x595 would be better than a Z? I am about to take on a property that has similar slopes and they end at a creek. It also has lots of trees. According to you and Envy, the tractor is much better suited to this. Is this right? I would greatly appreciate any advice as I am torn between the JD 737 60" and the x595 62"
If it's steep enough to be questionable, or if it will become questionable with changing weather patterns...
Then OH YES, 100%!!!

Slopes with obstacles that end at bodies of water, forest lines, other obstacles or drop offs.... with no 'recovery zone' for loss of control....

Well let's just say those areas and ZTR's don't mix!

Be safe!

Mickhippy
01-29-2005, 09:29 AM
Work with me here.....
If you go off road driving, would you use a 4 wheel drive or two?

2wd is fine for around the streets and for the shopping but take it camping, driving on a beach, up/down hills in the rain, difficult terrain.....
Think about it! Not saying 2wd cant do stuff but... 4wd is better and safer!

I thought this thread was dead and burried! :dizzy:

MOJO111
01-29-2005, 09:45 AM
Work with me here.....
If you go off road driving, would you use a 4 wheel drive or two?

2wd is fine for around the streets and for the shopping but take it camping, driving on a beach, up/down hills in the rain, difficult terrain.....
Think about it! Not saying 2wd cant do stuff but... 4wd is better and safer!

I thought this thread was dead and burried! :dizzy:



Hi Mick.
Bit off subject-----but what happened to our property care forum back here in Aus ??????
Every time I log on it comes up thats its under construction????

Mickhippy
01-29-2005, 09:47 AM
mojo, as far as I know, its over!

I'll send you a pm!

tstrong
01-29-2005, 09:48 AM
Envy, Have you looked at the Hustler ATZ ? Its specifically designed for slope performance.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 05:18 PM
The thread probably was dead but I'm a newby and I need to make a decision quickly. I am taking on a property that's about 3-4 acres, lots of trees, 2 large slopes that end in a river and a lake, so I wanted to know which type is more suited. Thanks for the input.

What's the stability like when traversing? For example, how steep would you go before you thought it was too steep to go across a hill? The hills I am thinking of are currently being mowed with a Greenfiled (sorry, those of you not in Aus won't have heard of them) and the guy goes up and down. I'm just wondering if I would be able to go sideways, as it would mean fewer turns. Also, I'd like to know some kind of rule of thumb, rather than trial and error - the error part is too scarey to contemplate.

Soupy
01-29-2005, 05:35 PM
Are you buying a mower just for this one property? I don't know your conditions over there, but I recommend a ZTR and a Walk-Behind for a good all around setup. If you are going to maintain different types of properties, then you need different types of mowers.

I do not know anything about the 4wheel tractors, but a walk behind might be a better solution. I just don't trust tractors at all, but It might just be me. At least with a walk behind you could let go of that sucker if you had to.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 05:43 PM
Thanks for this, but as was mentioned in a previous post, we just don't have that luxury here. The cost of a ztr is more than many small to medium sized cars! I need something which will cope with this property, but also be useable on other large properties. But at the moment this property is my priority as it will basically fund the ourchase of the mower.

Mickhippy
01-29-2005, 06:10 PM
Matt, I wasnt bagging you about bringing this thread back up, was just sorta over it if you know what I mean! hehe :p

Greenfield and Cox are very rollable IMO. I used to use a Cox and was always putting my foot down to stop rolling.

Soupy, we cant get walk behinds like what you have over there and like he said, ZTRs are to price of a new car!

That brings me to 4wd tractors, my JD was $16500 and the Kubota (when I was checking) was a little more than that so, there more or less the same price of ZTR.
There are a few other brands out there now so I'd look around at them all but remember the higher you sit, the higher centre of gravity etc.

I have traversed hills probably 20deg or a tad over. If you can sit on the edge of the seat and lean up hill its feels ok. The wider wheel base of these mowers make them pretty good. I thought the Kubota BX series felt a little top heavy and the ride was shocking compared to the JD but the Kubota is probably more heavy duty if that makes sense. You cant just put your foot down to stop a roll. They weigh half a tonne or more! Besides, you couldnt reach the ground. You have to be real careful sometimes when turning etc too,

Put it this way, I hope to get myself a ZTR soon but I will keep the little 4wd till I know exactly what the Z is capable of.

Hope that helps some mate.

If you have any other question, feel free!

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 06:21 PM
Matt, I wasnt bagging you about bringing this thread back up, was just sorta over it if you know what I mean! hehe :p

Greenfield and Cox are very rollable IMO. I used to use a Cox and was always putting my foot down to stop rolling.

Soupy, we cant get walk behinds like what you have over there and like he said, ZTRs are to price of a new car!

That brings me to 4wd tractors, my JD was $16500 and the Kubota (when I was checking) was a little more than that so, there more or less the same price of ZTR.
There are a few other brands out there now so I'd look around at them all but remember the higher you sit, the higher centre of gravity etc.

I have traversed hills probably 20deg or a tad over. If you can sit on the edge of the seat and lean up hill its feels ok. The wider wheel base of these mowers make them pretty good. I thought the Kubota BX series felt a little top heavy and the ride was shocking compared to the JD but the Kubota is probably more heavy duty if that makes sense. You cant just put your foot down to stop a roll. They weigh half a tonne or more! Besides, you couldnt reach the ground. You have to be real careful sometimes when turning etc too,

Put it this way, I hope to get myself a ZTR soon but I will keep the little 4wd till I know exactly what the Z is capable of.

Hope that helps some mate.

If you have any other question, feel free!

No worries - didn't feel I was being bagged. Last question. Is the price difference between the diesel and the petrol worth it - currently about $1000 Aus? I want the diesel both for fuel economy and I figure it probably has better low down grunt for cutting through the tall stuff and climbing hills etc, but I don't know if this is true/

Mickhippy
01-29-2005, 07:03 PM
Am I glad I have the diesel? Yes!
Over 8hrs hard work up and down hills etc on 24 liters! Its loud, its rough but I love it!
If I was to choose again between the 2, I would get the diesel again!

Spend the extra grand mate!

Try them both and get a feeling for it yourself I reckon.
You also have to choose the tires and deck size.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 07:51 PM
Going for the 62" deck, but any suggestions on tyres?

Mickhippy
01-29-2005, 08:12 PM
If your going to be cutting long stuff, say over 1.5 - 2' and up at all, I would re consider the deck size. Some of the lawns I do, add a bit of water and a growth spurt, its gonna clog!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm real glad I got the 54 instead!

Tires, its 4wd so it dosnt mater what tire you get IMO. The AG's I have can tear the turf a bit if not careful.
I only got them cos the look better! hehe

Heres a pic, dont know if I've already posted it but what the .....
Now a 62" deck could probably work on this job but there are areas that get pretty long, even leaves a few clumps with a 54 so a 62 would be worse I reckon. I think its just deck design, there to shallow and the discharge shoot is to small.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 08:19 PM
How big is that property? You think the benfits of the smaller deck outweigh the smaller size then?

As for tall wet grass, I'm in Cairns, so ships yeah, we get lots of it. Funny you should mention clogging, because I asked about that and got the usual salesman crap about them being really difficult to clog.

I DEFINITELY want to be able to do tall wet grass, so if you reckon I won't lose too much in terms of productivity compared with the 62", I may have to go for that.

Will go for the standard turf tyres then, as long as they will get me up a steep hill in the wet.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 08:26 PM
First of all do not compare a JD Gx series (Homeowner mower) to an eXmark Commercial. I only run Tractors - Get yourself a real tractor (JD x495 or x595) The 495 comes in front steer or all wheel steer - Very maneuverable, very very well built - Real decks under them. I run mine 10 hrs a day some days. I will try to post a pic, but I have not had much luck in the past. This is of a 17 acre job that is biweekly, so it gets pretty tall - My wife and I do this with a 455 JD and a 595 JD in 2 hrs. and 40 Min - no windrows - and excellent mowing job.

What size decks are you using on these mowers? I am tossing up between the 54 and 62 - any advice?

Mickhippy
01-29-2005, 08:39 PM
That property, in the pic is probably 3.5 - 4 acres questimate. There are other area not in the pic and it took 3.5hrs the other day.. (a new record)

Cairns, yep, I would go the smaller deck! From memory theres a $1000 difference in the 2 deck sizes so a salesman is a salesman. I would want to be better safe than sorry. Do I think the smaller deck size outweigh.. etc.. Yes I do! Smaller deck dont cut so much so dosnt have to get so much out the chute. What you loose in width you make up for in a little extra speed.

They clog and clump mate. Dont let anyone tell you othersize! But usually on long / damp stuff!

What sort of grass you have up there? Probably couch and that stuffs a nightmare if its longer than usual and any moisture in its a pain in the azz!

Get the 54! You will loose a little on trimming and you may have to do an extra couple of runs but its worth it. IMO.

Envy Lawn Service
01-29-2005, 09:02 PM
I would highly suggest you opt for the All Trail tires or the Bar tread instead of the turf tires. The lugs are too close together on turf tires, so they pack up very easily and bad. Mine on the ZTR pack up full of clippings and get slick.

mattpiper
01-29-2005, 09:12 PM
Thanks for this. I think I am going to get the 54" x585 with the the All trail tyres. Mainly because this is the one they have already in stock on the show room floor, so I can get the best deal. I would prefer the diesel but that's an extra $1000 and I don't get the same level of discount.

Thanks to averyone, especially Mick, for all the input. Now to part with some hard earned dosh.

Envy Lawn Service
01-30-2005, 03:42 AM
I think you have made the right tire decision. I hear those tires get good traction. I'm sure your dealer will appreciate you taking a floor stock item off his hands as well. The diesel would be ideal for fuel economy, torque and your working temperatures. But the X585 power plant isn't shabby either. It's a 25 hp liquid cooled Kawi with EFI here in the USA.

I also believe it's better to be a little slower than it is to be dead. The mowing areas you describe can easily get you injured, total your equipment or get your equipment and/or you drowned. More than one guy here has lost control and sunk a ZTR in a body of water.

Mickhippy
01-30-2005, 05:05 AM
My pleasure to help mate. Good luck with the purchase!

What are they asking for it anyway? I payed $16500 for mine when they were just new out here. Other places wanted up to $2000 more but I somehow found a good dealler.
It will be a huge (understatment) jump from ya Greenfield mate. Like sitting on a lounge chair while cutting grass! hehe

When your after blades let me know. Mine are modified Toro blades from a company in Brisbane. JD blades are almost $40 each and these others only cost $20 or so.

PM me your email address and I'll give you details!

Good luck with it mate!