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sglawn
01-11-2005, 09:49 AM
What gets the better result on preventing crabgrass? Deminsion or Barricade?

DiscoveryLawn
01-11-2005, 09:58 AM
I sure hope it's Barricade. I have three pallets of it sitting in my warehouse. I have always had decent results from Deminsion in the past until last year. I spent so much $$$ on Drive and time to respray crabgrass, I decided to pay the extra money for the Barricade if I can get better control.

David

lawnboyCO
01-11-2005, 12:54 PM
all I know is barricade, it works well, you just gotta make sure you put it down at the right time (not too early, not too late), you gotta watch those soil temps (soils gotta be at least 50 degrees) and make sure the customer waters it in real well (about 1/2 inch,within 2 days), gotta get those edges real well

James Cormier
01-11-2005, 01:35 PM
What gets the better result on preventing crabgrass? Deminsion or Barricade?

Ive been using diminsion for years, much happier with results vs. Prem. Last season I got a few pallets of Barriciade ( didnt want to use it 100% the first year ) I noticed a difference in results, not as good as the diminsion, and the cost was higher. So Im sticking with the dim.

captaingreen
01-11-2005, 02:40 PM
all I know is barricade, it works well, you just gotta make sure you put it down at the right time (not too early, not too late), you gotta watch those soil temps (soils gotta be at least 50 degrees) and make sure the customer waters it in real well (about 1/2 inch,within 2 days), gotta get those edges real well
Why not do a split app.? One in early spring and one late.

lawnboyCO
01-11-2005, 03:47 PM
the soil temps are not at 50 degrees in early spring, plus that would get quite expensive giving all my customers 2 pre-m apps,

lawnboyCO
01-11-2005, 03:49 PM
don't have the label handy right now, but I don't know if you can do apps so close together, never thought about it, you know how crazy spring can get

captaingreen
01-11-2005, 03:56 PM
In my area all of the company's do a split app.. We apply 1/2 the max amount of pendimethalin on the first app. in March and last 1/2 on the second app. in April/May. Customers are encouraged to water in the app.

philk17088
01-11-2005, 08:49 PM
I sure hope it's Barricade. I have three pallets of it sitting in my warehouse. I have always had decent results from Deminsion in the past until last year. I spent so much $$$ on Drive and time to respray crabgrass, I decided to pay the extra money for the Barricade if I can get better control.

David


You and me both! Dimension broke down, especially the late apps. Trying barricade this year.

ThreeWide
01-11-2005, 09:17 PM
If you are early or right on time with your window of opportunity for crabgrass, Barricade would be the best my choice. Barricade does less root pruning on the turf than Dimension, which is obviously a good thing.

Now if you are a bit late on your window, Dimension might be a better choice because it has some post capability on crabgrass. Barricade does not.

The key with the efficacy of any pre-emergent is the right timing, good coverage, proper rate, and watering the product in. Those who have had poor performance with Barricade probably suffered from one of those details.

qps
01-11-2005, 09:27 PM
What gets the better result on preventing crabgrass? Deminsion or Barricade?


have used both and barricade worked better.

qps
01-11-2005, 09:34 PM
If you are early or right on time with your window of opportunity for crabgrass, Barricade would be the best my choice. Barricade does less root pruning on the turf than Dimension, which is obviously a good thing.

Now if you are a bit late on your window, Dimension might be a better choice because it has some post capability on crabgrass. Barricade does not.

The key with the efficacy of any pre-emergent is the right timing, good coverage, proper rate, and watering the product in. Those who have had poor performance with Barricade probably suffered from one of those details.

I know people will argue this...but have you really seen any dry post emergent crabgrass control that worked.....this why I try to use barricade, I know I won't see crabgras in July.

lawnboyCO
01-11-2005, 09:50 PM
we did all liquid barricade last spring except for one small town that would not let there residents start watering until May 1st. So we decided to do granular pre-m in this town thinking the granulars would just sit on the lawn til rain came and the application would get watered in that way. Guess what? Come July, crabgrass everywhere in this town, and I know it was not a watering issue b/c we got a ton of rain that month. So I ended up using a lot of Acclaim in this town, and it was horrible. Other than that, crabgrass was not much of an issue last year.

DiscoveryLawn
01-11-2005, 09:52 PM
Can liquid Barricade be applied through a PG?

David

lawnboyCO
01-11-2005, 10:09 PM
I wouldn't try it

qps
01-11-2005, 10:13 PM
we did all liquid barricade last spring except for one small town that would not let there residents start watering until May 1st. So we decided to do granular pre-m in this town thinking the granulars would just sit on the lawn til rain came and the application would get watered in that way. Guess what? Come July, crabgrass everywhere in this town, and I know it was not a watering issue b/c we got a ton of rain that month. So I ended up using a lot of Acclaim in this town, and it was horrible. Other than that, crabgrass was not much of an issue last year.

All I use is dry barricade and fert for round 1. starting March 1st. I know its gonna rain sometime and if theres any weed pressure in late summer I just hit the edges and curbs with drive or acclaim.

jajwrigh
01-11-2005, 11:00 PM
I am going to try Dimension this year as well...

James Cormier
01-12-2005, 07:35 AM
Can liquid Barricade be applied through a PG?

David

i dont think the pg's have enough water as a carrier for pre emergent apps, However I use my pg for liquid dimension as the 2nd treatment, when I really trying to get some post control, I also spray acclaim thru the pg and get great results.

On MY comparison with dimension vs barricade I closely monitored timing of apps, watering and rates, and with all that being equal the dimension lawns where better off, then you factor in the added cost of the barricade and the dimension did even better.

Now if the barricade was cheaper, then maybe I would reconsider, Root pruning I dont care about, I will deal with that later in the year with proper fert,and aeration, I care about crabgrass growth, because my customers care more about that (crabgrass) then root pruning.

ArchiesLawns
01-12-2005, 08:42 AM
Has anyone every tried AquaCap by Pendulium? Cost more than PreM but less than Barricade. Just wondering what type of results you got?

Archie

T.E.
01-12-2005, 09:53 AM
Just out of curiosity, I'm wandering if the original question is based on the advertisement where Barricade says you only need one app. a year? That won't work in my area, because I talked with the Lesco rep about it.(Others in my area had tried it, had big problems) Back to the subject I personally like the Demension as it has a post emergent quality on crabgrass (young crabgrass). Just my thoughts. Tony

timturf
01-12-2005, 11:08 AM
i dont think the pg's have enough water as a carrier for pre emergent apps, However I use my pg for liquid dimension as the 2nd treatment, when I really trying to get some post control, I also spray acclaim thru the pg and get great results.

On MY comparison with dimension vs barricade I closely monitored timing of apps, watering and rates, and with all that being equal the dimension lawns where better off, then you factor in the added cost of the barricade and the dimension did even better.

Now if the barricade was cheaper, then maybe I would reconsider,
Root pruning I dont care about,
I will deal with that later in the year with proper fert,and aeration, I care about crabgrass growth, because my customers care more about that (crabgrass) then root pruning.


I guess the root prunning going into the summer season isn't so critical to you james in your area, but for me in my location it is! Why would I want to apply a chemical that's going to root prune my desired turfgrass, just before I enter the very stressfull summer months!!!!!!!!!!!

Have very little experience with barricade as single source of pre emerge, but it does less root prunning than dimension. Next least root prunner is bensulide, followed by ronstar!

James Cormier
01-12-2005, 11:52 AM
I guess the root prunning going into the summer season isn't so critical to you james in your area, but for me in my location it is! Why would I want to apply a chemical that's going to root prune my desired turfgrass, just before I enter the very stressfull summer months!!!!!!!!!!!

Have very little experience with barricade as single source of pre emerge, but it does less root pruning than dimension. Next least root prunner is bensulide, followed by ronstar!

Tim, I think all pre emergents root prune to some degree, obviously in a perfect world I would use a pre emergent that doesn't ( besides Tupersan ), so again what we as business owner AND turf experts have to realize there maybe times to apply certain products that may not be the " textbook" perfect product, but is the right stuff to use at that time.

Im not sure if I typed out exactly what I was thinking in my head, but oh well

timturf
01-12-2005, 01:45 PM
Tim, I think all pre emergents root prune to some degree, obviously in a perfect world I would use a pre emergent that doesn't ( besides Tupersan ), so again what we as business owner AND turf experts have to realize there maybe times to apply certain products that may not be the " textbook" perfect product, but is the right stuff to use at that time.

Im not sure if I typed out exactly what I was thinking in my head, but oh well


yes, all pre emerge do root prune EXCEPT tupersan, and ronstar ( not labeled for residential turf).

NOTE: I haven't seen any data if corn gluten meal does any root prunning!

Turfdoctor
01-12-2005, 02:04 PM
Wow! I logged on to specifically ask about Barricade. The first reply I read from Discovery was my experience exactly. I Have used Dimension exclusively the last several years in split apps. Heavy summer rain in TN last summer, and Drive spraying became my new job! That was the first year I ever got burned with Dimension. I have already received my Barricade65WG and my questions is as follows. I have done only split apps for the past 10years either with pre-m or Dimension. I am getting conflicting reports on whether to put down full rate of Barricade vs split rate. I am in the transition zone. I have talked to two of my local competetiors. One said full rate was outstanding and splits with Barricade worked lousy for him. The other has only used split apps with Barricade, last year, and was disappointed. WHO HAS TRIED BARRICADE IN SPLITS AND A FULL RATE AND WHAT WERE YOUR RESULTS??? Im taking a survey and have two more weeks to make my decesion. Thanks Turfdoc

timturf
01-12-2005, 02:39 PM
Wow! I logged on to specifically ask about Barricade. The first reply I read from Discovery was my experience exactly. I Have used Dimension exclusively the last several years in split apps. Heavy summer rain in TN last summer, and Drive spraying became my new job! That was the first year I ever got burned with Dimension. I have already received my Barricade65WG and my questions is as follows. I have done only split apps for the past 10years either with pre-m or Dimension. I am getting conflicting reports on whether to put down full rate of Barricade vs split rate. I am in the transition zone. I have talked to two of my local competetiors. One said full rate was outstanding and splits with Barricade worked lousy for him. The other has only used split apps with Barricade, last year, and was disappointed. WHO HAS TRIED BARRICADE IN SPLITS AND A FULL RATE AND WHAT WERE YOUR RESULTS??? Im taking a survey and have two more weeks to make my decesion. Thanks Turfdoc

Why do you only have two weeks?

kind of interesting how a thread changes!

Turfdoctor
01-12-2005, 02:42 PM
Have to start by Feb. 1st to get all 1st app done by April 1st.

qps
01-12-2005, 09:07 PM
Wow! I logged on to specifically ask about Barricade. The first reply I read from Discovery was my experience exactly. I Have used Dimension exclusively the last several years in split apps. Heavy summer rain in TN last summer, and Drive spraying became my new job! That was the first year I ever got burned with Dimension. I have already received my Barricade65WG and my questions is as follows. I have done only split apps for the past 10years either with pre-m or Dimension. I am getting conflicting reports on whether to put down full rate of Barricade vs split rate. I am in the transition zone. I have talked to two of my local competetiors. One said full rate was outstanding and splits with Barricade worked lousy for him. The other has only used split apps with Barricade, last year, and was disappointed. WHO HAS TRIED BARRICADE IN SPLITS AND A FULL RATE AND WHAT WERE YOUR RESULTS??? Im taking a survey and have two more weeks to make my decesion. Thanks Turfdoc

Have used full rate of Barricade in Indpls with great results, start laying it down March.1st.

ThreeWide
01-13-2005, 05:08 PM
Turfdoctor, there has been some university research on the very question you asked. Split apps, rate, etc.

Here is a link to a slideset that contains the info you are looking for: Slideset PDF (http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/Extension/Presentations/2003/TurfWeedManagementCountyMeetingsLandscapers6-03.pdf)

Vaughan's Lawns
01-13-2005, 05:21 PM
pre-emergent weed control is only as good as in understanding the herbicide.I like to make sure that I put down the right amount of ai to the acre. where i am from I will be using .8 lbs of barricade or .25 on splits on Dime. Where crab is bad I might do .25 then .38 on Dime. This root pruning thing is true, but I am growing fescue not bentgrass on greens.

qps
01-13-2005, 05:47 PM
i dont think the pg's have enough water as a carrier for pre emergent apps, However I use my pg for liquid dimension as the 2nd treatment, when I really trying to get some post control, I also spray acclaim thru the pg and get great results.

On MY comparison with dimension vs barricade I closely monitored timing of apps, watering and rates, and with all that being equal the dimension lawns where better off, then you factor in the added cost of the barricade and the dimension did even better.

Now if the barricade was cheaper, then maybe I would reconsider, Root pruning I dont care about, I will deal with that later in the year with proper fert,and aeration, I care about crabgrass growth, because my customers care more about that (crabgrass) then root pruning.

I agree Jim, I used the barricade on my high end accounts and all my residentals, I like Dim. also but it seems like I remember that the rate per thousand was higher on it than Barricade, but the cost savings is a factor also, how come no one has mentioned good ole Pend.? As cheap as it.....also what is your feelings on spraying with the PG unit and PPE, do you still wear boots, long pants and shirt and gloves??? I wonder what the state chemist inspectors would say to this, it's not like pulling a hose....thoughts???

DiscoveryLawn
01-13-2005, 07:03 PM
.....also what is your feelings on spraying with the PG unit and PPE, do you still wear boots, long pants and shirt and gloves??? I wonder what the state chemist inspectors would say to this, it's not like pulling a hose....thoughts???

Whether we are walking behind a hose spraying 4 gal. per minute or riding on the back of Ride-On, we are still required to follow the manufacturers instructions on the label for application and handling. Unfortunately, I believe, the label assumes the applicator is going to have contact with the spray equipment with their hands (spray gun, spray wand etc). I do not recall reading a label that has special instructions for PPE when applying with ride-on spray equipment to turf.

However, I would hope that an inspector would use common sense and realize that chemical resistant gloves are not necessary nor feasible when operating a ride-on.

I, for one, ALWAYS follow the label word for word when it comes to PPE for myself. :rolleyes:

David

qps
01-13-2005, 07:37 PM
Whether we are walking behind a hose spraying 4 gal. per minute or riding on the back of Ride-On, we are still required to follow the manufacturers instructions on the label for application and handling. Unfortunately, I believe, the label assumes the applicator is going to have contact with the spray equipment with their hands (spray gun, spray wand etc). I do not recall reading a label that has special instructions for PPE when applying with ride-on spray equipment to turf.

However, I would hope that an inspector would use common sense and realize that chemical resistant gloves are not necessary nor feasible when operating a ride-on.

I, for one, ALWAYS follow the label word for word when it comes to PPE for myself. :rolleyes:

David

Dumest thing I see is the guys pulling a hose wearing sneakers :dizzy:

James Cormier
01-13-2005, 09:17 PM
I agree Jim, I used the barricade on my high end accounts and all my residentals, I like Dim. also but it seems like I remember that the rate per thousand was higher on it than Barricade, but the cost savings is a factor also, how come no one has mentioned good ole Pend.? As cheap as it.....also what is your feelings on spraying with the PG unit and PPE, do you still wear boots, long pants and shirt and gloves??? I wonder what the state chemist inspectors would say to this, it's not like pulling a hose....thoughts???

I switched to dimension ( from Prem ) back in 97 when I took on a cemetery and didnt want to stain headstones, never looked back. I would switch back to prem if they ever get rid of the yellow. I was surprised to see the barricade yellow, but it didnt seem to have the same staining effect.

How bout team? Never used it, always assumed it was not a good product.

When Spraying thru the PG, I still wear long pants & gloves, I still wash my hands after every lawn, Ive heard its better to not wear gloves, because they make your hands sweat then your pores are open and more prone to adsorb the chemicals so just wash hands after each use??? Not sure on that one.

I do think the ride on's reduce our exposure to materials, and thats a good thing

qps
01-13-2005, 09:39 PM
I switched to dimension ( from Prem ) back in 97 when I took on a cemetery and didnt want to stain headstones, never looked back. I would switch back to prem if they ever get rid of the yellow. I was surprised to see the barricade yellow, but it didnt seem to have the same staining effect.

How bout team? Never used it, always assumed it was not a good product.

When Spraying thru the PG, I still wear long pants & gloves, I still wash my hands after every lawn, Ive heard its better to not wear gloves, because they make your hands sweat then your pores are open and more prone to adsorb the chemicals so just wash hands after each use??? Not sure on that one.

I do think the ride on's reduce our exposure to materials, and thats a good thing

Nothing like the "yellow cloud" all over everything, except for the gust of wind there not much exposure to out front spray ride on, my centri is officiality retired now that the z-spray is due in (Feb) I have used team before and wasn't impressed with it. I wonder what a inspector would say about no wearing gloves while using a ride on. Thanks for you input

DiscoveryLawn
01-13-2005, 10:51 PM
I am going to call my county inspector next week to ask him about this wearing gloves on a ride-on thing. By the way, I too clean my hands after every lawn with handy wipes or a soap and water bottle I keep next to my hose reel.

Also ...I always wear long pants and boots.

David

YardPro
01-15-2005, 08:01 PM
Ive been using diminsion for years, much happier with results vs. Prem. Last season I got a few pallets of Barriciade ( didnt want to use it 100% the first year ) I noticed a difference in results, not as good as the diminsion, and the cost was higher. So Im sticking with the dim.


you should be switching pre-M every few years

James Cormier
01-15-2005, 10:49 PM
you should be switching pre-M every few years

I will never go back to pre m unless they solve the yellow staining problem.

GrowinGreeninc
01-15-2005, 11:55 PM
First of all barricade can be applied at any time prior to germination of crab. the 50 degree mark is generally when microbial activity stops. for those of you who didn't know that is how barricade is broken down. Applying under 50 is ok unless the soil is frozen, the product will sit there until temps rise. Since it is water insoluble the ideal timing is splits with the first one early ie now to prevent early germination. We have used both 65wg and 4fl for years but had major problems with breakthru last year. Syngenta stood behind it 100%.
We will go back to 65wg this year and have ordered 800lbs of it. We will do split apps starting Feb 10. We do have approx 8 properties that have had breakthru for 4 years no mater what rate or product. We treated these last week with the full label rate. I have friends who used dimension who had major problems last year. I have heard positive research from N C State on the pen aqua cap
but staining is still an issue. hope this helps.

YardPro
01-16-2005, 08:09 AM
I will never go back to pre m unless they solve the yellow staining problem.


i meant that you should be switching pre emergents every few years... rotating brands.

i was not saying to use pendemethelum based products. ( and this year they are releasing a new pendemethelum that does not stain)

GrowinGreeninc
01-16-2005, 09:01 AM
i meant that you should be switching pre emergents every few years... rotating brands.

i was not saying to use pendemethelum based products. ( and this year they are releasing a new pendemethelum that does not stain)

While this would be a good practice with most pesticides, all of the preemergents labeled for some lawns are dna herbicides or contain a dna component so rotating the same chemistry doen't really buy you anything. check this out for more info on preemergents http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/pubs/weeds/lnlnd.html

DUSTYCEDAR
01-16-2005, 09:24 AM
i use dim on my lawns with a split app works well
last year i had tons of rain and it still did well only on the edges it failed and it was to be expected
if u r treating lots of lawns there is no way to be on all of them the week befor the crab grass pops up so u have to start somewhere and do split apps to get season long control in my opin.
as for cost it is a factor but call back cost way more then some extra product here and there so its up to u if u cant afford to do a split app due to cost u need to charge more! payup
now the lawns that i have done for years i can use pre-m and save some bucks they dont have the crab pressure that the new lawns i pick up have
u have to keep and eye on what is going on and work around the weather
as for the pg i dont spray much with it all gran but i will use the skid tank if need to spray the moutain goat homes i do