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ThreeWide
01-12-2005, 08:35 PM
Landscapers in our area often install Bermuda sod during the fall and winter months. I've seen three new properties this week in such a scenario. We've always been told no pre-emergent on new Bermuda sod, so that's the practice commonly observed.

Today, I investigated one where the sod appeared to be installed around last September. It was well rooted in some locations, but in some areas the sod seams were still evident.

This lawn is severely infested with henbit and a host of grassy weeds. Poa annua, Poa triv, you name it. Since the sod is was not fully established before dormancy came, I am concerned about weed control methods. It obviously had no pre-emergent to this point.

I'm thinking that since both a post and pre-emergent is needed, Simazine would be a good option other than Glyphosate (will not put that in my tank - whole other subject). I do not think Simazine would be any threat to the greenup process this Spring, as long as it would control the existing weed problem.

Any Simazine vets out there?

Luscious Lawns
01-13-2005, 07:39 AM
After your post yesterday I went out and bought a quart of Revolver ($175.00) to use on dormant bermuda for Poa & Goose Grass. I also looked into the Simozine product. It is much cheaper than Revolver.

Gly. over dormant bermuda. No Way!

I usually tell the customer we'll pre-M the turf and address the weeds at green up. If the sod is poor. (like much of the new construction around here)

Allen

ThreeWide
01-13-2005, 08:41 AM
Revolver is also great for removing fescue in actively growing Bermuda. You should get good use of that product this year. I will most likely be using it for perennial ryegrass removal in my own lawn this Spring.

As the weather turns cold again this week, the Revolver might take a bit longer to produce results. Just keep that in mind.

One thing about the pre-em. I've heard many theories on the use of pre-em on new bermuda, but you do want to avoid having it active during the Spring greenup process. One of my most trusted reps says that applying pre-ems at a reduced rate right now is just fine as it will lose efficacy before early April. Once the bermuda has greened up, then we can go with another round of pre-em. This does leave us vulnerable for crabgrass for a few weeks, but the greenup period is critical. It is possible that problems seen in the past were from traditional March 15 applications of pre-em, which is just before greenup. One could understand the problems potentially caused by that.

UGA did a study on pre-ems with bermuda sod installed in February 2000 and 2001. They found that Pendulum and Dimension used at labeled rates caused very minimal to zero issues with greenup or root damage. Ronstar caused zero issues, but that product is not labeled for residential use. They only saw problems with 2X and 3X rates while simulating an actual overdose. This was with high quality sod under near perfect soil and moisture conditions. We can take that for what its worth, but what they found goes against the labels regarding new sod.

You can read about the study here. (http://www.griffin.uga.edu/grf/dept/cropsci/turf/weedcontrol/sodpull.htm)

quiet
01-13-2005, 10:31 PM
Interesting study. Here's the summation:

"While this data indicates that newly-installed bermudagrass and tall fescue sod is tolerant to commonly used preemergence and postemergence herbicides, it is strongly emphasized that all proper installation and maintenance practices (soil testing, fertilization, irrigation, mowing, etc.) were utilized in these experiments. Additionally, the sod used in these experiments was of high quality. In the event of droughts, improper irrigation practices, abnormally low or high temperatures, or the use poor quality sod the results could have been dramatically different."

Luscious Lawns
01-15-2005, 07:46 AM
Yes a very interesting read. One thing stands out though. Is the 400%+ disparity in the repeatability of the test sample from the 2000 sample to the 2001 sampling on Bermuda sod. This leads me to believe there were few control factors in place. For information to be statistically accurate there should be less than 20% variance from one yest plot to the next.

This is a very important consideration for new installation. Hopefully GDA will have more data soon.

Thanks for the infor TurfUnl

Allen

YardPro
01-15-2005, 07:59 PM
Gly. over dormant bermuda. No Way!



you absolutely can

we spray almost 30 acres/year with roundup.

glyphosate has NO root or soil activity.

it has to enter and be metabolized in a leaf to be translocated.

there is NO adverse effect to spraying glyphosate on FULLY dormant bermuda

Luscious Lawns
01-16-2005, 09:28 AM
Yard Pro you areabsolutely right Gly is labeled for weed release for dormant bermuda. And in NC where you have cooler weather, where there is no doubt of dormacy this might be the thing to do.... It is cheap.

However with the detailed turf we mantain, in a warmer climate, this is a risk my company is not willing to take.

Allen

YardPro
01-23-2005, 05:49 PM
Luscious Lawns

the bermuda here ( at the coast) does not go completely dormant every winter.
we have to be careful as well with winter chem apps.

we usw much more diquat ( SUPER CHEAP) if there is any question.

it will not permanently dammage the bermuda, as it is just a defoliant.

greenerpastures
01-23-2005, 07:53 PM
Simazine would still give you some pre-emerge benefit at this point, especially on thistle, henbit, and other early spring broadleaves. I would wouldn't expect much from its post activity at this point unless it is very young poa. I would have little worry with simzine on new turf (less so than with pendemethalin). And, perhaps like you, I have seen very significant damage on bermuda, "believed" to be dormant, with glyphosates.

YardPro
01-23-2005, 09:09 PM
we just use the trimec products for the broadleaf, and diquat on the poa.

i am shy about the simazine. with our 18" water table i am paranoid it will have the same groundwater issues that atrazine had.

Williams Services
02-24-2005, 02:29 PM
I want to resurrect this thread to pursue the simazine question. The label on simazine says that it can't be used north of NC except the coastal plains of VA, so I wouldn't think that the leaching is a concern - wouldn't the CP have a higher water table than the rest of the state?

My question is this:

Is anyone using simazine as a pre-emergent for cg, etc.? I like the 27¢/m idea ...

ThreeWide
02-24-2005, 03:55 PM
Although it is not stated on the Simazine label, a friend of mine who has been in this field for years told me not to apply it anywhere near the Spring greenup windows.

He says that it will cause problems with Bermuda coming out of dormancy. If that is true, then using it to prevent crabgrass would not be possible.

Williams Services
02-24-2005, 03:59 PM
Right, but is that for common bermuda as well, or just the hybrids?

ThreeWide
02-25-2005, 07:00 AM
I only deal with hybrids, so it might not apply to common.

greenerpastures
02-25-2005, 09:02 AM
We have occasionally used simazine in Feb/March combined with pendemethalin. Target was heavy early spring broadleaf weeds such as thistle and henbit---usually renovation-type work. It is not going to give you the crab control you want. Simazine can't be beat for its fall application value when you consider price for performance, but its not a stand-alone product for spring pre-emerge.

To some degree or another, virtually all herbicides have some phytotoxicity to turf. My experience with simazine is that it is negligible, even in late winter.

Williams Services
02-25-2005, 10:14 AM
Will it not send the bermuda and zoysia into dormancy? I was told it would.

greenerpastures
02-26-2005, 11:48 AM
My experience is with bermuda. Turf injury has not been noticeable. However, I don't know why one would make a simazine app during spring green-up ---- your target weeds are already emerging.

Our fall applications often go out a month before frost and the turf is active. Never any injury. Again, I consider simazine mainly a fall pre-emerge product and an occasional poa post-control product.

Scott's actually market a fert with atrazine ( similar chemistry to simazine, but more soluble). They sell it over the counter at garden centers year-round. Not something I recommend, but alot of it gets put out by Joe Homeowner year-round.

Williams Services
02-26-2005, 02:43 PM
Ok, that helps out. I'm familiar with atrazine. Thanks, greenerpastures.

cecropia11
01-13-2013, 03:57 AM
Is there any products on the market that will remove kentucky 31 fescue out of bermuda grass, besides glyphosate.

kbrashears
01-13-2013, 01:22 PM
Is there any products on the market that will remove kentucky 31 fescue out of bermuda grass, besides glyphosate.

Revolver.

But why would you be bashful on using gly in Evansville?

cecropia11
01-16-2013, 06:13 PM
It is not that I will not apply to bermuda, as I have but when you try killing tall fescue out of bermuda when temps are below 65 is not going to do anything you would have to apply like 5/6 Oz per gallon of 41% glyphosate, and at that rate I have still not completely kill and even if it does kill it it comes back tall fescue is very tough, and at the high rate of spraying dormant bermuda there is a very high chance that when it comes out of dormancy you will see damage, very unsitly. That is why I was wondering if there was a product on the market labeled for that that would not effect the bermuda.

grassmasterswilson
01-16-2013, 09:57 PM
Not sure where you are but if your Bermuda is fully dormant there isn't much you can really do to harm it. I've sprayed Bermuda with gly in February here an no damage.

Revolver. Celcius. Manor. There are a ton of products that will take out grasses.

Keep in mind anything you do in the cold weather will take weeks to work.
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kbrashears
01-17-2013, 11:48 AM
It is not that I will not apply to bermuda, as I have but when you try killing tall fescue out of bermuda when temps are below 65 is not going to do anything you would have to apply like 5/6 Oz per gallon of 41% glyphosate, and at that rate I have still not completely kill and even if it does kill it it comes back tall fescue is very tough, and at the high rate of spraying dormant bermuda there is a very high chance that when it comes out of dormancy you will see damage, very unsitly. That is why I was wondering if there was a product on the market labeled for that that would not effect the bermuda.

Well, I spray gly at 32oz per acre here in Jan/feb with temps in the 40's and I smoke all cool season grasses out of my warm season grasses.