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CRJCAPT
01-15-2005, 11:03 AM
I am replacing 10 year old Bermuda grass with tall fescue sod. What does it take to kill the Bermuda? Some have suggested removing a layer of soil and replace it with new dirt. That sounds rather expensive. Removing and replacing approx. 12,000 SQ. FT. Whats the best time of year to do so? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks a lot in advance.

YardPro
01-16-2005, 09:45 AM
you will have to wait until it greens up in the spring.
wait until the third mowing and spray with either a glyphosate (roundup) or you can use fusilade, or vantage.

i would go with roundup, it will be much less expensive. also buy it in a large commercial size from a landscape supplier, NOT lowe's, etc...

wait two weeks and spray again any spots that are growing.

also do not mow the grass for several days before you spray. roundup HAS to enter through a leaf. the more leaf area, the more roundup will enter the root system.

timturf
01-28-2005, 06:25 AM
I ended up fumigating it! Roundup made it sick, very sick, but it came back!

I took a new job, inherident a rebuilt green that was seed too late in fall to creeping bent. We reseeded in April, had spotty germination, doing well, about to open green for play, when we discovered COMMON bermunda growing. We applied roundaup with a paint brush on individual bermunda plants, several times, but it came back! Come to find out, the greens mix was stockpiled in front of green, turf was a mixture of cool season and bermunda!

The weakest time for bermunda is when breaking dormancy!
what about ornomec and roundup?

marko
01-28-2005, 11:32 AM
CRJCAPT,

Good luck! I had a berm. yard in amarillo, TX that I converted to fescue and it was a job. This was before I was into lawn care and my own house but it was a couple year job. I sprayed roundup after a weeks worth of growth (as much leaf as possible as stated above), waited a week then rototilled the whole yard. Let it set for a week and hit anything still looking alive. Rototilled again then planted and put down a good fert. (12-12-12 maybe) to help with the root growth. What sucked is the stuff still tried to come back and its something you will have to stay on top of. My neighbors also has berm. on both sides. Good luck. I think you could water with gas and you still would not kill it all off.

out4now
01-28-2005, 03:10 PM
Bermuda has both rhyzomes and stolons so it is tough to get rid of. Round Up Pro even will take several applications. Here people kill it off to install desert lawns. It almost always survives though. Most of what we have is seeded types and the seed will blow in from other yards all the time. Soil removal will not get it either. The water department has found roots going down several feet on occcasions according to a city representative and Dr. Kopec at the U of A Karsten turfgrass research facility. COntact your local extension and get their veiw on how to get rid of it. If it is healthy and you can get a full lawn out of it, it will probably be less costly to just accept it and make a nice lawn out of it.

muddstopper
01-30-2005, 09:36 AM
Bermuda is going to take several applications of roundup to get rid of. My suggestion is to wait until mid summer. Apply roundup and wait for it to turn brown. Till and water the soil to encourage the bermuda to come back as some will come back from seed and some from roots. Roundup with a second application. Wait 2 weeks to see if any additional bermuda returns. You may have to repeat the roundup and watering cycles several time to completely erradicate the bermuda. Once you are sure that no Bermuda is left you can then lay your sod with minimal disturbance of the soil. If you rake or till the soil again before laying sod you will bring additional bermuda seed to the surface and have to start all over again. Some will spray and till several times before prepeing for sod. The only reason to wait for mid summer to start the renovation is so that you will be killing the bermuda during its growing season and laying fescue at the start of its main growing season when the bermuda will be going dormant. By spring you should have a good stand of established fescue tht will be harder for the bermuda to compete against. Once the fescue is established use a tall mowing height to further discourage the bermuda.

timturf
01-30-2005, 03:16 PM
Just get it fumiged!

Ric
01-30-2005, 05:11 PM
WoW

A lot of good people here, giving some not so good advise.


CRJCAPT

You have to look at the whole process of the grow in and maintenance of a Fescue lawn to get rid of Bermuda. Yes Roundup will only suppress Bermuda and it takes several application at a high Active ingredient rate to do that. Universities recommend A combination of High Rate Roundup and Fusilade applied 3 to 4 time, two weeks apart during the growing season to control it.

Now you also must understand Fusilade is a selective herbicide for Bermuda on Fescue. To my knowledge there is no other turf other than Fescue that Bermuda can be selectively controlled. Therefore you have made a excellence choice in selecting Fescue to replace Bermuda.

Therefore Kill out you Bermuda several times with The combination of Roundup and Fusilade and wait a minim of 7 day or more days, to plant Fescue. Yes you will get Bermuda regrowth. But this can be controlled with Fusilade alone. But Under stand that Fusilade is not totally without harm to the Fescue. It does have a residual that depends on the Chemical holding ability of you soil (CEC). This may cause that area to need reseeding. First season you should get a nice stand. But not until the second season will you have a rich turf.

BTW you will still have many Bermuda seeds in you lawn that will germinate over the next few years.


Tim

Fumigation is out of the question for a home owner. Golf Courses Have both the budget and location for it. Yes it is the best way to go.

YardPro
01-30-2005, 06:01 PM
rick
fusilade and vantage are the same, so if he can't fing fusilade, vantage will do the trick.

They are both labled for centipede as well. I don't work with ANY fescue at all, and was unaware of the labeling for fescue.

we use vantage to control our 419 in beds and on zoysia and centipede lawns ( oops, it's also labled for some zoysia.'s (at least vantage is))

TotalCareSolutions
01-30-2005, 09:17 PM
-Your Bermuda should be dormant now.
-Rent a large dumster ($100?)
-Rent a Skid Steer ($250?), it won't take you long get used to.
-Scrape it off to one side or go ahead and put it in the dumster
-Order a couple dumps of dirt and top soil mixed for the afternoon.
-Spread the dirt w the tractor
-Have everything picked up and finish grade w a rake
-Overseed in spring and then again in the fall

Ric
01-30-2005, 09:42 PM
-Your Bermuda should be dormant now.
-Rent a large dumster ($100?)
-Rent a Skid Steer ($250?), it won't take you long get used to.
-Scrape it off to one side or go ahead and put it in the dumster
-Order a couple dumps of dirt and top soil mixed for the afternoon.
-Spread the dirt w the tractor
-Have everything picked up and finish grade w a rake
-Overseed in spring and then again in the fall


TotalCare

I can not agree with your Solution. I think you must realize Ground temperature is a big factor in growing Any plant. Why go to the expense of Dirt work when it won't gain that much time. The Ground must warm up in order for the Fescue to germinate. Mother Nature has a time for everything, work with in her guide lines.

Guthrie&Co
01-30-2005, 11:58 PM
I am replacing 10 year old Bermuda grass with tall fescue sod. What does it take to kill the Bermuda? Some have suggested removing a layer of soil and replace it with new dirt. That sounds rather expensive. Removing and replacing approx. 12,000 SQ. FT. Whats the best time of year to do so? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks a lot in advance.
fucilate 2. it will kill the bremuda but it wont touch the fescue

TotalCareSolutions
01-31-2005, 09:07 AM
True. The ground has to be warm enough to germinate the seed. Thats why I said:
-Overseed in spring The dirt was more so to fill in the scrapings and gouges of the homeowners firast time on a skid steer. Granted he may not need a couple dumps, but I would think some nice mix would help.......thoughts?

Garth
01-31-2005, 03:47 PM
I will tell you what I'd do here in California but I doubt that it would work back East. First I'd apply Round-up (like Quik-Pro, none of that RTU crap) and afterwards I would lay 5 mil plastic over the lawn area. If I had the time I would put a beer can every ten feet and lay a second layer of plastic. I would leave it like that until Fall. Solarization is one of the cheapest and most effective ways of sterilizing the soil. The temperatures under the plastic are enough to cook any seeds and render them dead. I would then rototill to a depth of 4-6in. lay your fescue seed and cover with a 1/4in. layer of topsoil. If time is of the essence then consider using Round-Up, rototilling and watering a few cycles before planting. By germinating then killing off the seedlings, you will have less to deal with later. Monterey company has a bermuda grass killer that won't harm fescue lawns. Also since bermuda requires alot of light to germinate as well as heat, you can keep your mowing high to limit the amount of seed that does come up. Be careful of pre-emergent herbicides as some will last a long time in the soil and limit the amount of fescue that germinates.-Garth

TScapes
02-11-2005, 03:24 PM
I have two words of advice: GOOD LUCK!
I have seen customers spend thousands of dollars, and even excavate upwards to 6" of soil, then bring in fresh, sifted topsoil and then sod with Fescue. The results are still the same as if you just used chemical suppression, [B]"... you will still have many Bermuda seeds in you lawn that will germinate over the next few years..."

If you understand the process, that you will never (I repeat, NEVER) completely get rid of bermuda, then you can move forward with the process. Personally, I like warm season grass, even though my customers in Tennessee and North Carolina want fescue. When you do a cost comparison over several years, you spend a lot more money on fescue than on bermuda or even zoysia. The amount of mowings, chemicals, fertilizations, fungicides, water....... the lists go on. I call fescue a money pit! You need to overseed every fall, you can not miss a lawn treatment, and you need to water it regularly. Sorry.... this is my personal feeling, and may not reflect yours.

Moving forward, I would suggest renting a sod cutter for the weekend. This will cut the bermuda into manageable pieces for you to discard. I would then go over the areas with a tiller to get everything loose so you can level out any uneven spots in the yard. Make sure to rake up as much debris and clippings as possible. Then depending upon your soil, get a soil sample and send it to your local Dept. of Agriculture Extension Agent, then bring on the fescue sod! Make sure you tuck it and lay it in an alternating pattern (like bricks on a house). Ask your sod distributor for some pamphlets. Make sure you water it in as you go. The soil sample that you send off for an analysis, will tell you what nutrients you will need to add to help your sod take off. (Usually a "starter fertilizer" from the local retail store will do the job).
Good Luck!

Charles
02-14-2005, 09:03 AM
I agree. Fescue is a money pit in the South. I would not plant tall Fescue--ever lol
The Summer heat in Atlanta will kill fescue in a very short time. Most of the time when temps get close to 100 one day or more the fescue is toast.
Tall Fescue will require you to cut it at least 2 times a week. That stuff holds in the moisture and clogs bagger shoots if it get too tall. The crap is made for cow pastures lol
The temps in Atlanta regularly get to 95 and above and really stress out fescue. Watering wont stop the scorching effects. Too much watering will rot the roots
Oh yes you could sod in zoysia

ThreeWide
03-07-2005, 05:59 PM
With all due respect to the person starting this thread, I have no idea why anyone would want to do this. Fescue in Georgia is indeed a money pit.

Only valid argument I've ever heard was...." I don't like dormant grass, I want it to be green all year"

If it was me, I'd keep the bermuda and just overseed with perennial rye every fall. Then you'll have a great looking lawn during the Winter and early Spring. If you go with Fescue, you will be overseeding every Fall anyway. You'll spend less money with this method as opposed to fescue.

I'm doing the exact opposite this season.....getting rid of fescue and replacing with bermuda. My lawn is full sun and should have never been fescue to begin with. The previous homeowner must not have cared at all.

Once you have Bermuda...you have it forever. Bermuda roots can often become in place many FEET underground.

Bushwhacked
03-07-2005, 08:08 PM
TurfUnlimted, I was wondering the same thing, light wise I mean. Most lawns here are Bermuda because of the heat and if you don't have plenty of shade.
I thought Fescue would be the opposite of Bermuda, my lawn for instance under a small tree in the back Bermuda just would not grow, I was mowing dirt. I threw out some fescue seeds and it's out there growing now, while my Bermuda is still brown. If I dug up my entire Bermuda lawn , I don't think the fescue would grow in the same place where it's FULL sun and no shade without using alot more water. Light and temp is definitely a factor in this switch over........?

ThreeWide
03-07-2005, 09:44 PM
Fescue is a cool season grass, so it is near its prime season very soon. Of course your bermuda is not growing because it has yet to break dormancy.

Bermuda won't do well without at least 4 hours of sunshine per day. Over time, shaded Bermuda will slowly decline and become very thin. Tall Fescue actually only tolerates partial shade and also requires a certain amount of sun. Some of the fine fescues will grow under shady conditions. Does that tree have foilage this time of year? In Summer it will block out the light the grass needs.

Zoysia is somewhat shade tolerant, but St. Augustine is probably the most tolerant.

Bushwhacked
03-08-2005, 01:40 PM
No, no foliage on the tree. I went out this morning and the fescue (looks fine fescue to me) really is lush and green. I would love to have it all over but I'm not going thru what has been advised in this post. Plus, we have to ration water here occassionally when it's really hot and dry. Dormant Bermuda isn't that bad but wish I could get a strain that's as dark green as the cool season grasses.