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desert rose gardening
01-16-2005, 10:38 AM
I saw this question and was hoping to get a answer, as usual I got a partial answer and 5 pages of BS and wasted reading. Could someone that actually knows about give me a ratio of how much salt you would put in a gallon of water on average please? Thanks

Dchall_San_Antonio
01-16-2005, 02:13 PM
I'll start the 5 pages of more BS. Every plant has a salt tolerance (and I'm assuming you're talking about table salt, sodium chloride). The answer to your question really depends on what plant and how you will apply it. And, interestingly, I am not aware of anyone in the organic community relying on salt to kill plants. The organic gardeners are much more interested in feeding the soil biology and not destroying it with salt.

If you do decide to go ahead and kill your plants with salt and later want to reclaim that land, you should send a soil sample to K Chandler at Texas Plant and Soil Lab where they sort of have a little niche going in reclaiming land lost to salt buildup. K knows more about that topic than anyone I've ever met. I can summarize his general remedy: balance the sodium with calcium and magnesium salts. What the balancing amounts are depends on the existing salt levels for all three.

GroundKprs
01-17-2005, 03:35 PM
Again, as a commercial, licensed applicator, you cannot use any items as pesticides unless they are so labeled. The only exception that I know of is CGM used as a pre-emergent weed control - EPA exempted CGM from labeling, and allows it to be called an organic herbicide.

So pick up your salt package, and read the label. If it is labeled as a herbicide, then just follow the directions on the label. If it is not, just forget about using it as a herbicide.

Sorry if some take this as negative, but that is the legal structure we are supposed to operate under. It is unfortunate that this forum is used as an emotional stage, on both poles of the organic vs. chemical topic. Most threads here would do much better on some organic bulletin board. I have mostly given up participation here, because I was tremendously let down by the lack of commercial comments here. I have really not seen one thread that discusses the procedures for a legitimate commercial applicator to go about establishing and running an organic lawn care business. While there are a lot of interesting suggestions here, I have not seen many that can be used legally by a commercial applicator in most states.

woodycrest
01-17-2005, 08:09 PM
'' I have mostly given up participation here, because I was tremendously let down by the lack of commercial comments here. I have really not seen one thread that discusses the procedures for a legitimate commercial applicator to go about establishing and running an organic lawn care business.''

Thats because the discussions always end up as synthetic vs organic argument, the discussions inevitably turn to arguments.
THis is an organic lawn care forum ,not a synthetic vs organic debate forum.
If we could get past the 'emotional stage , maybe we could spend more time discussing logistics.

First step is to think simple!

Dchall_San_Antonio
01-18-2005, 05:39 PM
I got the impression that the person asking the question was a home gardener and not a professional. That's how I replied. A professional would have known how to use a product if it was labeled as a herbicide. As far as I know, there are salts used as herbicides but not table salt. And also, as far as I know, the salinity is not the herbicidal factor in the salty herbicides.

I think this board has a chance to regroup and make some progress now. I'll start a new thread to explain.

tremor
01-30-2005, 08:27 AM
Let me preface my post with the admission I work for a large Green Industry supplier. Unlike the "fertilizer & Pesticide" board, this forums members probably don't know who I am & I don't want to mislead anyone.

Perhaps it would be wise to post a sticky on this board with all or most of the organically acceptable legally registered herbicides that are available for professional use. Table salt is of course, not legal for a commercial applicator to use. Since this is a message board designed for professionals, then all recommendations should be offered under this pretense.

"Professionals Growing Together" is the banner proclamation.

There is no shortage of "Garden-Web-Forums" for organics DIYs to get answers from. If this forum is to be viable, then legal solutions for professionals should be the only goal.

I spent 2 years on the Westchester County Environmental/Pesticide Advisory Board. Similar to this forums dilemma, the board would not accept any of the commercially available "soft herbicides" such as Scythe & instead would only endorse the Ready To Use products found in retail garden centers.

These are often made from the same potassium salts of fatty acids to which occasionally is added Acetic Acid (vinegar).

The only reason these materials passed the bar was the very low LD/LC-50 of the bottled material which is already diluted to end-use concentration. Of course the commercially available Scythe was actually much LESS toxic once diluted per the label. But various board members had more concern with "the sort of businesses that sell & use Scythe", than the real world viability of legally & profitably using "low impact" herbicides. How nice! Public funding to endorse a commercial interest! No conflict here.

Ironically, if a vinegar based concentrate is compared to Scythe, the label & MSDS clearly indicate a greater danger to the end-user. Acetic acid is extremely damaging to the eyes & therefore is labeled as such. Indeed it is even more corrosive than 2,4-d which carries a Danger label for this reason.

Here is the greatest dilemma that I see for legal Organic commercial applicators:

I just googled into a "natural herbicide" & low & behold, it is the same one endorsed by the board I used to sit on.

This Burnout-2 RTU herbicide is sold in a 48 oz bottle for $28.00 prior to shipping. Thus $.58 per ounce. The material is applied at 213 oz per 1000 sq ft (per the label). Therefore the commercial applicator cost = $124.25 per 1000 sq ft or $5412.33 per acre.

Scythe on the other hand when applied at 6 oz/M has a contractor cost of about $2.11 per 1000 sq ft or $91.88 per acre.

I'll wager a guess that "Burnout-2" can be had cheaper than the source I just took 10 seconds to discover. But perhaps this is the sort of constructive effort that this forums members ought to be performing rather than justifying the illegal (commercial) use of table salt.

Steve

Norm Al
01-30-2005, 09:51 AM
the basic make up of roundup is:

4 pounds of salt
5 pounds of vinegar
1 gallon of water
3 ounces of soap

the patent is off of roundup now so have fun everybody else has a roundup knock off on the shelf!

tremor
01-30-2005, 10:24 AM
You wouldn't have needed to wait for the patent to expire since this isn't how RoundUp is made. But the fact remains, to apply this concoction for hire requires that it be registered. Is it?

Norm Al
01-30-2005, 02:51 PM
that is the "basic" foundation for glyphosate!


and yes to sell it or apply it you would need a label approved by your state!

tremor
01-30-2005, 04:37 PM
There are plenty of off-patent versions of Glyphosate in the market now but let's just look at Monsanto.

Glyphosate is made from N-(phosphonomethyl) glycine & isopropylamine salt which actually means it is an organo-phosphate. But it is not a cholinestrase inhibitor.

The isopropryl amine & ammonium salts of glyphosate translocate in targeted plants. Chloride salts aren't very good at this.

Monsanto's Roundup Pro contains the surfactant polyethoxylated tallowamine surfactant (POEA), isopropylamine, and water.

TClawn
01-30-2005, 06:54 PM
on my seashore paspalum lawn I do not mix salt with water. I spray the desired plant with a mist of water and then sprinkle table salt on the plant. it either kills or severly sets it back in 24 hours. the seashore is not affected 1. because of it's high salt tolerance, and 2. seashore leaves have a waxy leaf blade that lets the salt slide right off it.

Norm Al
01-30-2005, 09:26 PM
ok tremor thanks for the science class,,,,now in laymans terms what are those products that make up glphosate?

Kate Butler
04-12-2005, 05:25 PM
4 pounds of salt
5 pounds of vinegar
1 gallon of water
3 ounces of soap

Hey, except for the soap - that's almost a recipe for making pickles.

WhohasHelios?
04-13-2005, 12:32 AM
4 pounds of salt
5 pounds of vinegar
1 gallon of water
3 ounces of soap

Hey, except for the soap - that's almost a recipe for making pickles.

Kate, what sort of soap specifically are you using for this?

Can you describe your results a little?

Thanks,
-Reuben

Kate Butler
04-13-2005, 07:33 AM
Reuben, Sorry, I copied that from Post # 7 on this thread - I've not tried it, just making a flippant observation. Usually, a recipe like this would mean dish soap (Dawn, etc..).

WhohasHelios?
04-13-2005, 10:09 AM
haha...oh wow...i must have been really tired last night...I apparently just decided to skip half the forum.

Sorry Kate.

That would be why I was wondering about the recipe. Cause it IS round up more or less!!!

I will stick elbow grease and hort. vinegar.

-Reuben

sheshovel2
04-13-2005, 10:38 AM
Wouldent it just be easier to just pull or dig the dang weed out??????

woodycrest
04-13-2005, 01:48 PM
haha...oh wow...i must have been really tired last night...I apparently just decided to skip half the forum.

Sorry Kate.

That would be why I was wondering about the recipe. Cause it IS round up more or less!!!

I will stick elbow grease and hort. vinegar.

-Reuben


better be licenced ...elbow grease could be considered as a pesticide... :p :)

nocutting
05-01-2005, 01:04 AM
Hello Gentleman, 1st this reply isnt to start anything ,....but how much sense does it make for an "Organic LCO" to carry a "Pesticide Lic.?"....I dumped mine 3a&b, [ turf,ornamentals & trees]...7c[ termites], when I started my company in the late 80's....80% of my control measures are cultural practices and 20% applications of various 100% organic / non- pesticide type treatments....In my state you need a lic. to purchase, apply, and charge for a pesticide?......Who needs them?...Surely not an "Organic LCO"....so whats the big deal?...Every year I treat / control insects / disease and enviromental conditions on my properties.....Never lost a lawn to grubs, or a hemlock to wooly adelgids, and with every treatment I can rest assured that my clients "Children & Pets", wont develop some sort of health condition from the crap applied to there property, nor the ground water from leaching or runoff.......Sure every now and again, I or a crew member recives a citation for unlicensed application, - to this date we havent had a fine as every case has been dismissed.......So whats the "Big Deal".........Just keepin my little part of the world Green, Healthy & Safe for future generations.- Regards Saxon :)

Kate Butler
05-01-2005, 08:53 AM
I agree that MOST organics are a less toxic choice BUT what about the nicotinoids or the pyrethrins? Those organics (and some others) are why we who apply ANY chemicals should have the appropriate license.
And if you're telling your clients that because you are applying organics you aren't required have to have a license - well, that's a whole other can of worms.

kthhayes
05-02-2005, 01:12 AM
1 gal distilled vinigar
1 cup salt
8TBS liquid dish soap

combine the salt with 1/2 gal of the vinigar, agitate till allmost disolved, add the other 1/2 gal of viniger, agitate till all is disolved, add dish soap and agitate lightly. Soap helps the salt stay in solution, and acts as a binding agent on the leaf. It will take several applications to kill the target plant, as the food in the root needs to be exausted.

green_mark
05-22-2005, 09:04 AM
It is interesting to watch the fear in our industry over baning pesticides.

I have an office in Montreal where over 70 cities have already ban. Next season the entire province is banned.

Our industry was fearful of change. Understandable! To adjust our services we offered weed management programs. Yes, programs!

Without traditional controls we were not able to do a one stop fix. Instead we sold 3 applications of an organic weed management program. This, combined with lime, core aeration, over-seeding (when needed), and increased services have provided beautiful lawns.

Our business went from an average revenue of 110.00 for 5 apps on a 1,000 sq ft lawn to over 225.00. This year it looks like our average revenue could exceed 250.00.

Suffice it to say. Educate yourself! This is the industries future. Traditional pesticides have come to the effective end of their life. Adjust and make more money or simply get out of the way!

We have made the organic program work in both countries. Visit www.greenerpastures.net and look at what we offer our clients.

www.bonjourquebec.com/anglais/