Accusations of Censorship In This Forum

[Sean Adams]

The members of LawnSite.com who frequent the Pest/Fert Forum know that this is almost like a separate world unto itself. There are certain people in this industry that visit this particular forum and that is fine.

Lately there has been a lot of discussion about several brands of machinery used in this segment of the industry. Those who frequent this forum know exactly what I am referring to.

Without mentioning names, one company decided to disregard the rules of the site and advertise their product every chance they had. They started discussions, they jumped in on discussions and even directly attacked their competition. How? They made themselves Joe-Blow Landscaper and posted on the site just like everyone else. They stayed under the radar just enough so that it would not be completely obvious.

Again, not mentioning names, other companies see LawnSite as a great tool for the industry. They step up to the plate and offer to become a sponsor. Great. No problem. No special treatment. Links, banners, etc... nothing more, nothing less. They help make it possible for members such as yourselves to have all of these discussions. Does that mean they received special privileges? No. Just check and see. They have been questioned. They have been ridiculed at times, etc...

But there is a fine line now... from this point on these discussions will not take place on this site if the rules are not followed.

If you have never owned a particular piece of equipment, you do not have the right to comment on that product, machine, company, etc... Doesn't make sense, skews the direction of people looking for help, and is just unethical in general.

This is a forum to discuss ideas. This is not the place to air your dirty laundry. Instead of whining every chance you get, go to the mfg of the product you are unhappy with. Explain to them the problems you are having. But to park your rear in front of your keyboard and just start throwing out arbitrary statements and accusations and comparisons...well those days are over with.

Realize that you only see what you can read on the forum. You do not see what goes on behind the scenes. You do not see what is right in front of our (admin) face daily.

Finally, to the particular members who have posted claims that lawnsite is now only about making money and censoring its members... You are entitled to your opinion. To those members posting about Eric(which you are wrong about BTW), and especially those admitting they have never owned the equipment they are bashing, that won't fly here.

Use this forum for which it was intended - to learn from and help others, to share experiences,etc... This is not a place to start problems to satisfy your need to read your complaints, and it certainly is not the place where companies will get a free ride.

If anyone would like to discuss this with me personally, you can email me or call me any time at seanlawnsite@aol.com or (412) 847-0050.

[James Cormier]

The members of LawnSite.com who frequent the Pest/Fert Forum know that this is almost like a separate world unto itself. There are certain people in this industry that visit this particular forum and that is fine.

Lately there has been a lot of discussion about two brands of machinery used in this segment of the industry. Those who frequent this forum know exactly what I am referring to.

Without mentioning names, one company decided to disregard the rules of the site and advertise their product every chance they had. They started discussions, they jumped in on discussions and even directly attacked their competition. How? They made themselves Joe-Blow Landscaper and posted on the site just like everyone else. They stayed under the radar just enough so that it would not be completely obvious.

Again, not mentioning names, another company decides lawnsite.com is a great tool for the industry. They step up to the plate and offer to become a sponsor. Great. No problem. No special treatment. Links, banners, etc... nothing more, nothing less. They help make it possible for members such as yourselves to have all of these discussions. Does that mean they received special privileges? No. Just check and see. They have been questioned. They have been ridiculed at times, etc...

But there is a fine line now... from this point on these discussions will not take place on this site if the rules are not followed.

If you have never owned a particular piece of equipment, you do not have the right to comment on that product, machine, company, etc... Doesn't make sense, skews the direction of people looking for help, and is just unethical in general.

This is a forum to discuss ideas. This is not the place to air your dirty laundry. Instead of whining every chance you get, go to the mfg of the product you are unhappy with. Explain to them the problems you are having. But to park your rear in front of your keyboard and just start throwing out arbitrary statements and accusations and comparisons...well those days are over with.

Realize that you only see what you can read on the forum. You do not see what goes on behind the scenes. You do not see what is right in front of our (admin) face daily.

Finally, to the particular members who have posted claims that lawnsite is now only about making money and censoring its members... You are entitled to your opinion. To those members posting about Eric(which you are wrong about BTW), and especially those admitting they have never owned the equipment they are bashing, that won't fly here.

Use this forum for which it was intended - to learn from and help others, to share experiences,etc... This is not a place to start problems to satisfy your need to read your complaints, and it certainly is not the place where companies will get a free ride.

If anyone would like to discuss this with me personally, you can email me or call me any time at seanlawnsite@aol.com or (412) 847-0050.

Sean, so why lock the PG threads? If you can keep out the joe blow landscaper that does what you claim, why stop me, who has paid PG $10,000 of my money, from commenting on their product?

[Sean Adams]

All sponsor threads have been posted, stuck, and closed on the site in other forums since as early as 12/04....trying to be consistent....

And any amount of money spent does not give anyone the right to air dirty laundry again and again and again and again, and....get my point.....Your point was made. Telling your experiences and bashing a company is not one in the same. Tell your story, move on, go to the mfg. Not that difficult.

[James Cormier]

All sponsor threads have been posted, stuck, and closed on the site in other forums since as early as 12/04....trying to be consistent....

And any amount of money spent does not give anyone the right to air dirty laundry again and again and again and again, and....get my point.....Your point was made. Telling your experiences and bashing a company is not one in the same. Tell your story, move on, go to the mfg. Not that difficult.

Wow, you think I bash PG? I dont think I have started a post in a long while on that company, if I ever did at all. The only times I posted was in response to someone else. Because I commented on it before, now I cant comment on it in the future when a new person ask a question about it?

Been to the mfg many times, get the same response, dont wash it well enough or its still better than walking.

[James Cormier]

On your sponser messages and annocements thread, not all of them are locked.

[qps]

Wow, you think I bash PG? I dont think I have started a post in a long while on that company, if I ever did at all. The only times I posted was in response to someone else. Because I commented on it before, now I cant comment on it in the future when a new person ask a question about it?

Been to the mfg many times, get the same response, dont wash it well enough or its still better than walking.


Just for the record, I own both a PG Centri and a new Z-sprayer, I haven't used the z-sprayer (except for the one I demo for a week) ;)

[Sean Adams]

My point was made...read it again.

This will not turn into a long-winded waste of time.

If you post in this thread and it was addressed, it will not be addressed again. If the way it was addressed is not to your satisfaction, call me personally. Otherwise, posts will be removed that do not belong or add to the discussion.

[sprayman73703]

Hey Sean I don't see any censorship here, I bring up my Prolawn rig all the time as you know and noone censors me. Thanks for the great site! It is fun to see all the different ideas good bad and ugly!

[Sean Adams]

sprayman - thanks for bringing this up. I did not want to point this out, but there are quite a few companies who are discussed daily in this forum (and many all over the site) that are not sponsors. We never have to step in. But when a company is discussed over and over again in such an adamnat fashion, things don't add up.

[dcondon]

Good work Sean!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep it up........ :waving:

[trimmasters]

I agree, Our Perma Green experience was bad from day one and the support was what made a situation that could have been turned around that much worse. This was three years ago i don't know if much has improved but i wouldent think so from what ive heard.

[DLS1]

Hey Sean good posts about what is going on. Now that you mention it there has been so many posts about ride on spreaders that you could start a separate forum just for that topic. Well now we know why.

Thanks Sean and the moderators for a very good site to learn and share knowledge.

[Pilgrims' Pride]

Just my thoughts but when I first came here I found LS to be a great source of information. I still do.
What troubles me is that (and evidently I'm wrong) I thought it was also a place where people who share a common ground could air some gripes instead of taking them home. (Sometimes we end up laughing instead of bit*hing.)
It seems that there have been MANY concerns/complaints about one particular subject.
By the way if you have bad experiences with a product and the manufacturer is it not normal to share those experiences and perhaps even discourage others from making the same mistake?
I once thought and maybe I even posted that it would be nice if the manufacturer of that product was aware of just how many complaints exist.
I see finally that someone is responding to these issues. I hope that continues.

I am not some manufacturer slandering another mans product.
I am.

[James Cormier]

All sponsor threads have been posted, stuck, and closed on the site in other forums since as early as 12/04....trying to be consistent....

And any amount of money spent does not give anyone the right to air dirty laundry again and again and again and again, and....get my point.....Your point was made. Telling your experiences and bashing a company is not one in the same. Tell your story, move on, go to the mfg. Not that difficult.

Sean, I finally figured all this out, I see your from western PA, so I assume you are a steelers fan.

The company in question is from Indiana.

Your just picking on a die hard Pats fan, cause your teams cant seem to find a way to beat mine...... :D

[qps]

Sean - make no mistake - this is about money! You are frustrated by the fact that Tom Rich at Z-spray will not advertise with you. You can't stand the fact that he gets plenty of free press on this site and doesn't have to advertise with you. I am sure you are getting heat from Tom Jessen about all the bashing he gets and he spends money with you. BTW I looked hard at both units (personally meet with both Toms). I now own 2 z-srayers.

Oh man....you are so gone :help:

[turfsurfer]

Well, this may or may not open a can of worms. I had no idea there was some underhanded things going on in the battle between PG and the makers of the Z-spray (you might as well say it, those ARE the two most talked about and compared spray units on this forum). I am guessing that since PG is a sponsor that you are saying that representatives from LT Rich have been contributing to the debate in an unethical way and bashing PG. If this is true I would have to say shame on them. On the other hand, having actually owned both units (even buying the PG and giving it a chance against all the advice I read on here), I say: STOP THE Z-SPRAY GUYS WHEN THEY'RE LYING. While the PG unit may have it's uses for some guys, it really can't hold a candle to the Z-spray and I, for one, am glad that I heard about LT Rich on this site.
I said it before and I'll say it again, the guys at Rich products are the best I have dealt with in 12 years in this business. Whether things change as they rapidly grow remains to be seen but that is their challenge. I WILL stand behind the companies that stand behind me and those companies are few and far between. Just a thought but maybe you should consider what your members are saying on your site before taking on sponsors with apparent problems in their service or products.
Also why not go ahead and reveal the bogus posters so we can see for ourselves what is going on (maybe even appreciate a little what you go through as a moderator). My 2 cents.

[Tscape]

Hey Sean I don't see any censorship here, I bring up my Prolawn rig all the time as you know and noone censors me. Thanks for the great site! It is fun to see all the different ideas good bad and ugly!

I am hearing Sean say that there will be no more different ideas, bad or ugly?

This doesn't smell right, Sean. If the forum is not open, then it is by definition censored. But hey, you own it, so call it what you want.
Mike McDade

[Sean Adams]

Mike,

It's not about me trying to skew the definition of what is censorship and what is not. Earlier someone suggested I bring to the forefront all of the people posting on the site who have "the wrong intentions" or are doing so "illegally". As much as it would help prove my case it has been the policy of these sites long before me to not do so.

In other words, what I'm saying is, if there are people who are posting about this and that, and the posts are genuine due to experience, etc... then I am OK with it. But people who are specifically making it their goal and "j-o-b" to put companies, sponsors, and even members down for the benefit of another is not only wrong, it will not be tolerated. The written word is a powerful thing and for someone not in the loop at this particular time may read this information with an open mind and see things posted and proclaimed and accused that are not only false, they are bordering on being libelous.

[dishboy]

Mike,

It's not about me trying to skew the definition of what is censorship and what is not. Earlier someone suggested I bring to the forefront all of the people posting on the site who have "the wrong intentions" or are doing so "illegally". As much as it would help prove my case it has been the policy of these sites long before me to not do so.

In other words, what I'm saying is, if there are people who are posting about this and that, and the posts are genuine due to experience, etc... then I am OK with it. But people who are specifically making it their goal and "j-o-b" to put companies, sponsors, and even members down for the benefit of another is not only wrong, it will not be tolerated. The written word is a powerful thing and for someone not in the loop at this particular time may read this information with an open mind and see things posted and proclaimed and accused that are not only false, they are bordering on being libelous.

In Idaho the information does not have to be false to be libelous, only damaging to someone's reputation and of economic consequence.

With that being said you might want to look at the two threads about Trugreen-Chemlawn in the commercial lawncare forum.

[Williams Services]

Witch hunt, here we come.

[crawdad]

Witch hunt, here we come.

If there is any censorship going on, don't worry, the mods will delete it.
I hope everyone is having a good winter, :waving: hang in there, spring is on it's way.
Crawdad

[Sean Adams]

If you go back and re-read what I wrote, I said false AND libelous....Idaho is not the only state that defines libel in this manner.

[dishboy]

If you go back and re-read what I wrote, I said false AND libelous....Idaho is not the only state that defines libel in this manner.

Sean, I reread your post and it said "bordering on libelous", thus my reference to Idaho's definition.

[Sean Adams]

Wouldn't any type of wording of this sort be "bordering" on being libelous until proven so? Maybe we are saying the exact same thing....

To clear up what I said before (if I didn't say it right).....

Some of the things being posted are false - flat-out untrue and can be proven as such. Falsehoods do not necessarily mean they can or should be considered libelous. Posting on the forum I am from Alaska is false, but doesn't necessarily hurt my business or it's ability to earn income....

That's why I ran them together and said false AND bordering on libelous >>>> meaning constructive criticism is one thing...or even down-right proof that things are wrong or have been mishandled....but some of the people posting (and they know who they are) have never owned certain pieces of equipment and they just continue adding to the negativity by posting false statements.

Either way, I apologize if I did not make it clear what I was getting at.

[GroundKprs]

What brought this all on was the deletion of a thread that compared two machines, with input from people who claimed to have experience with them. (And everything we read on the Internet should be considered a claim, LOL.) A sponsor was negatively treated by most in this thread. If the competitor manufacturer was in fact feeding this thread, it would have been informative to members that this be identified, so we could know to watch such an underhanded business.

Or, if the forum owner is concerned about liability in doing this, the identified posts could have just been deleted.

To delete the whole post definitely smacked of censorship in favor of a sponsor, and rightfully incensed a few individuals who had presented their honest experiences in that thread. Posting here takes time and effort in some cases. Deletion of the thread in question belittled the sincere contributions of a number of people.

In the past, controversial threads were locked, so they would subside quickly and not resurface. Again, deletion suggests censorship.

Indeed the site owner can do what he wishes with his site. But might he consider quitting all this smokescreen? Consider restoring the thread, with the shill posts noted or deleted? Consider apologizing privately to those you offended and expelled for questioning your integrity? And in consequence showing those of us still here that you are a man of integrity?

[MrBarefoot]

Great post GroundKprs.

[Sean Adams]

Jim,

I appreciate you posting. You have been a long-time well respected member, and I would never try and deny that or look past that.Your feelings, although sensible a few days after the matter, are not always easy to accomplish during the problem.

First, I must say the thread(s) were not deleted becasue a sponsor was getting "bad press". Every sponsor knows going in that they are going to receive criticism. The thread(s) were deleted because one company was being bashed beyond belief, without reason by many people who openly claimed they never owned the machine, while another was being recognized in great detail, again by similar people who also claimed they never owned that machine as well. Fishy? To say the least.

As far as taking the time to point out these "bad guy" posts would not only ruin entire threads but it would spur on new arguments lktogether. Therefore, no smokescreen here. Just making the easiest, most logical decisions I can in the "heat of the moment."

I could make it very simple (at least for argument sake) and insist anyone and everyone wanting to discuss/argue equipment, they need to have undeniable proof that have owned what they are planning to discuss.

[1grnlwn]

It's funny though nobody gets too upset when somebody bashes Dixon or Craftsman. Just choppers and apparently PG. Well lucky for me I rely little on the opinions here and use my own expierences and thoughts to make my decisions. I would recomend others do the same. That said, these sites are a mind opening experience and can really help contractors gage their operation. The problem with the internet is you can be anyone you want. Just as in life, there are truthfull people and there are liars. And liars are good at it! I bought a Z-Spray over a year ago. It is not perfect, but I tried a pg and a Z at a show and made my choice. I believe I made the right one. These are complicated machines and work under adverse conditions and it will take years of design to make them as reliable as say a mower. IMHO

By the way it use to be if you tested or owned a unit you could state your opinion. Now you have to spend 5 grand to have an opinion. I am a little sensitive in this area. When I first posted here oh so many years ago, I asked a few legitimate questions about some problems with DC ,brought to my attention by contractors who owned them. I stated no opinion but asked if anyone else had experienced these issues. Well ole Eric responded and knocked my D*** in the dirt. See I was new and did not realize that DC had this invisible shield and a cult following. And Eric could of been having a bad day. But that left a bad taste in my mouth and still does. God bless Eric. So I see him as a man not a God.

[SOMM]

I can't blame Sean for removing incessant FLAME WAR posts or entire threads from this site. Most members make their points after 2-5 posts and let it be, suck it up and be businesslike. How can we expect this site to remain FREE when advertisers are run-off by membership (qualified to say so or not) with Shiney New Axes to grind and when their fellow members get to wade through pages of their frienzied lividness just to get to the "meat" of the thread. If you've spent good time on your posts, save them to Wordpad or similar document management, so you can recall them later and re-edit for better content if necessary, without adding miserable negativity to the entire Lawnsite membership at large.

My freedom of speech does not transact into a license for inciting mob rule action. Like Driving, I regard Lawnsite membership as a not to-be-taken-lightly priviledge that can get my posts or threads removed or even get me penalty-boxed/muted or even banned. If i disagree, i'd rather do so without becoming disagreeable.

[Tscape]

I see what you are saying, Sean, and sympathize with the spot you are in. GroundKprs, well said.
I have participated in these threads in the past, as the owner of a Z-spray, but have always qualified that I have never owned a PG. I have compared the things I have heard about PG to the things I know about the ZS. I would have thought that that was a fair thing to do. It just seems that PG (a sponsor) is getting shielded from harsh criticism by the current issue/discussion. This criticism, I believe, serves everybody well. PG gets feedback that they can use to develop and refine their product. The potential buyers of the product get valuable info before they spend $5000+ on a machine. Are we all not in favor of shielding the LCO from a product that may not be well designed or serviced?

As far as anybody who represents a company in a sneaky or clandestine manner, that seems to be a cause for concern. I would not, however, accuse someone of this without absolute proof. "Fishy" does not constitute grounds for an accusation. That would be dangerous and libelous. I would not believe it for one second if you told me that L.T. Rich Products ever resorted to those tactics.

Mike McDade

[timturf]

Why where their post deleted from the thread about getting your spray certificate in PA?

[Sean Adams]

In this thread? Not sure anything like that was deleted.

[timturf]

Thread title : Pa certification help, in pest & fert forum

[Sean Adams]

Appears it was pulled....Jodi knows her stuff...former banned member started the thread

[Soupy]

What brought this all on was the deletion of a thread that compared two machines, with input from people who claimed to have experience with them. (And everything we read on the Internet should be considered a claim, LOL.) A sponsor was negatively treated by most in this thread. If the competitor manufacturer was in fact feeding this thread, it would have been informative to members that this be identified, so we could know to watch such an underhanded business.

Or, if the forum owner is concerned about liability in doing this, the identified posts could have just been deleted.

To delete the whole post definitely smacked of censorship in favor of a sponsor, and rightfully incensed a few individuals who had presented their honest experiences in that thread. Posting here takes time and effort in some cases. Deletion of the thread in question belittled the sincere contributions of a number of people.

In the past, controversial threads were locked, so they would subside quickly and not resurface. Again, deletion suggests censorship.

Indeed the site owner can do what he wishes with his site. But might he consider quitting all this smokescreen? Consider restoring the thread, with the shill posts noted or deleted? Consider apologizing privately to those you offended and expelled for questioning your integrity? And in consequence showing those of us still here that you are a man of integrity?

Great post.

[Soupy]

Ok sean, I am going to voice my opinion. The problem I have is that any topic that has something to do with a sponsor gets your up-most attention. That is great because that is in your best interest. The only problem is that making members happy is in your best interest as well. You have obviously upset many over this topic. It takes 3 key components to make a forum work. 1) Someone to run the forum, 2) members to create the content of the forum, and 3) sponsors to pay for the forum. Out of those 3 which 2 are absolutely necessary for a forum to work? With that said, I'm not saying you don't make the members happy, I'm just saying it is obvious that you put sponsors before members. That is your right. It's your business and you should run it how you want. I am just a participant in this crazy game.

My real beef is that while sponsors are protected threads like this are allowed to go on http://lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=95963&page=5&pp=10 . I would like to see the threads where members are being bashed and were foul language/attitudes are being used have your attention as well. I don't know you very well, so I don't know what you have to offer but you claim to have tons of knowledge in the green industry. It wouldn't hurt if you participated a little more and shared some knowledge either. The only time I see you pop up around here is when it has something to do with a sponsor or when you are trying to explain your actions. I don't care about any explanations, it is your business you do what you want. If it upsets your members then that is your problem but constantly trying to hide the obvious is ridiculous.

I like this site, but for one reason and one reason only. I like the members! If the members I enjoy were not here then I wouldn't be either. It has nothing to do with the name of the site, who owns the site, who sponsors the site.

Ok, I said my peace. I know I am going to be told because I have been told before " I have no right to question this site unless I do it in private" (censorship). I'm not questioning this site. You do what you want. I am just voicing my opinion/judgment of how I feel about the whole ball of wax.

[Sean Adams]

Ok sean, I am going to voice my opinion.

You know I welcome opinions. Always have...

The problem I have is that any topic that has something to do with a sponsor gets your up-most attention. That is great because that is in your best interest. The only problem is that making members happy is in your best interest as well. You have obviously upset many over this topic.

Sponsor issues are always immediately brought to my attention. Usually this is the case becasue they seem to turn into the nastiest posts with the most rules broken. I fully recognize keeping the members happy and the sponsors happy is my goal. I also am not foolish to think that the squeaky wheel always deserves the grease. If I have upset people, I am able to live with that. To say that it has been "many", I would have to disagree. To say it has been "many vocal members", then yes, no argument there.

With that said, I'm not saying you don't make the members happy, I'm just saying it is obvious that you put sponsors before members.

I will admit when I first took over the site 2 years ago, I genuinely wanted to find a way to make everyone happy. The same for PlowSite as well. But I also knew that if LawnSite and PlowSite were ever to grow into strong forces in the industry, things would have to change, people would have to be upended, feelings would have to be hurt, and attitudes would have to be put in check. It was worse than I thought. You can ask my wife if no one else - I thought the world hated me. Moderators removed from duty, long time members banned, rule changes, etc... all part of the recipe, but not always tasty. I still wish I could just handle each issue one at a time and in the end have all parties smiling hand in hand. I know for sure, it will never be that way. Because I am not always doing what members want that certainly does not mean I put the sponsors before them.

I would like to see the threads where members are being bashed and were foul language/attitudes are being used have your attention as well.

They do get my attention...usually just in a different way - by me pulling, editing, deleting, etc.... Just becasue I do not hop in to play "kindergarten cop" at certain times does not mean I don't see what is going on and do something. But in the thread you pointed out, when you are in my position, garbage like that can be pulled and edited all day long. Then what? Then I am a censorship freak looking to play God. My hope is that these things can work themselves out. A self-governing situation is a beautiful thing. It is my ultimate hope.

you claim to have tons of knowledge in the green industry. It wouldn't hurt if you participated a little more and shared some knowledge either. The only time I see you pop up around here is when it has something to do with a sponsor or when you are trying to explain your actions.

I don't know if I have actualy ever said I have "tons of knowledge in the green industry", but I like to think I know a little bit. Let me preface this by saying that posting on this web site used to be one of my forms of escape and relaxation. I used to sit back and read and laugh and think etc... Now, with nearly 27,000 members, trolls, spammers, troublemakers, libelous situations, threats of violence (Yes, I am serious), it is hard enough reading only the reported posts about people asking me to remove their sold item from the marketplace. Believe me, no tears here, but this is a million times more time-consuming than I ever would have imagined. As far as joining a discussion about a sponsor, I do not have a choice....

As I have said before, I love this industry, I love running the sites, and I love all that goes into this. But I know I will never make everyone happy, but I will do my best to try.

[Soupy]

I am sympathetic to your work load. I only mentioned the part about participating because it would show more loyalty. Not that you have to show loyalty, but you preach it. With any business you will have customers (although I don't really consider members as customers, we are the tools in this particular business) that voice their opinions. Some customers will even voice them publicly to all their Friends. My point is to not try and hide those facts. If you want to address the concerns of the customers then that is great. If you feel that your business is going in the direction you want it to go and that the few customers don't fit into that direction, then that is great too. It is your business and you should handle as you want. I only ask "if you want my participation" to stop trying to hide the facts. You admitted to having to step into threads about Sponsors and the others can just worked their own way out. That is great, you are finally openly admitting the facts. For me, that is all I want. I can choose if I want to be part of your business or move to another supplier of the business. If you are honest and open then that is to your favor.

I see that your biggest problem is that in protecting your sponsors (the real customer) you will upset the members because you are taking valuable info out of their hands. That is something you have to live with because you are in a pickle. This is a very unique business you are in and I am sympathetic to that, but you chose this business.

Again, these are just my feelings/opinions and I am only speaking for myself. But if you are honest about your situation you will gain a lot more respect for your actions. I completely understand the pickle you are put in day after day. I would probably do the same thing when it comes to greasing the sponsors. Just don't try and smoke screen it. That is what gets under my skin. To think we are that stupid. Just for the record Sean, I do not hate you :) I don't hate anyone for that matter. There is room in this world for all of us and if we try hard enough we can live in harmony.

[TClawn]

EDITED BY ADMIN - WAY OFF TOPIC

[Soupy]

If I have upset people, I am able to live with that. To say that it has been "many", I would have to disagree. To say it has been "many vocal members", then yes, no argument there..

You might be right, but it has been my experience that many people will get upset at things and never say a word about it. There really is no way for you to know. I highly doubt there is 27,000 active members. It is usually the same people on average that post here. So that brings the percentage down a lot. When you have 10 (just a number) people complaining out of a 1,000 it looks a lot worse then 10 people complaining out of 30,000. Plus you don't know how many might be quietly slipping away.

Just thought I would point that out Incas you are making your decisions based on what you think might be a minority. It is the "active" members that matter, because if you lost them, the number 27,000 would be mute.

I feel that this is a real problem that you have brewing and shouldn't be taken lightly. I only say this because I remember a time when no one complained about this stuff or had any real issues with this site. Hopefully you have been keeping tabs on the numbers that matter and are making the best decisions for your business. I wish you luck and continued success.

[MrBarefoot]

First, I own a Perma-Green Ultra and there are things I like and dislike about it.

why doesn't perma green respond to these threads? wouldn't it be better to defend themselves? .

I think you nailed it TClawn, to have this handled this way makes it appear that PG doesn't want to have this debate. It gives the appearance that PG would rather silence an exchange that isn't going well for them, rather then get involved and prove their product better.

If I was running Perma-Green Inc., I would make it someones job to monitor the lawn forums and make sure that people who post complaints about their product are told (by PG) to get a hold of PG and let them help. PG could then rebut false or weak claims, give perspective on why things are the way they are, and learn the truth (the good, the bad, and the ugly) about what lawn care companies think about their product.

The way to win the debate is to bring the facts, and then follow it up with actions. This is especially true if, as Sean alleges that some competitors are trolling this forum with a mission to smear Perma-Green.

If Perma-Green is able to respond the the smears, and the PG owners remark about how great and prompt the support comes. That is far better advertising then money can buy. And it would have the dual effect of undermining the smear trolls, and the product they allegedly are promoting.

[Sean Adams]

never be 27,000 talking at once...but more than you think....and everyone involves themselvs differently to be "active'...this particular issue in this forum...yes, about the same 10-12 whiners keep bringing it to the top so it is talked about over and over again....won't have that here, don't care who is doing it...big waste of time and bigger waste of space...move on

upset one person they tell 10 friends

please one person they tell 2 friends

[Sean Adams]

good ideas, but can't start throwing around other companies money,manpower, etc...

[Charles]

never be 27,000 talking at once...but more than you think....and everyone involves themselvs differently to be "active'...this particular issue in this forum...yes, about the same 10-12 whiners keep bringing it to the top so it is talked about over and over again....won't have that here, don't care who is doing it...big waste of time and bigger waste of space...move on

upset one person they tell 10 friends

please one person they tell 2 friends

Yea and those 10 or 12 are probably from the "other" camp. Sent here to stir things up and disrupt our fine establishment. They are on a trolling mission from a sinking leaky ol barge. HAHAHAHA While we got a sleek Hotboat with dual 454 magnums
Aint that the truth on the last 2 sentences LOL

[Soupy]

Yea and those 10 or 12 are probably from the "other" camp. Sent here to stir things up and disrupt our fine establishment. They are on a trolling mission from a sinking leaky ol barge. HAHAHAHA While we got a sleek Hotboat with dual 454 magnums
Aint that the truth on the last 2 sentences LOL

I wish you were correct. The only reason why I voiced my concern is because I love this site. The opposite is what is happening. It is the whole in this Hotboat that is making those barges grow. I don't want to see that happen. But if you guys want to keep pulling the wool over your eyes with these imaginary numbers then go right ahead. I highly doubt it is 10-12 people that this policy has upset. It might be 10-12 voicing their opinion in a section of the forum that doesn't get visited as much. Don't forget about the ones that don't voice their opinions either.

I as a member of this site do not want to lose anymore members because someone thinks it's no big deal. It is a huge deal and a lot bigger then 10-12 people.

Edit: I am done voicing my opinions on this matter. It is Sean's site to do what he wishes. I don't give a rats behind about PG. It is the members that I care about. If we keep losing members then that is fine. I am sure I will find them. It's suck having to do that.

[Charles]

Your concern is touching Soupy. But when I read this it comes across as people just jerking Seans chain and trying to make him and the forum look bad. btw I didnt mention your name but if the shoe fits.....?

[Soupy]

Your concern is touching Soupy. But when I read this it comes across as people just jerking Seans chain and trying to make him and the forum look bad.

I really wanted to not have to post to this thread again but I have to address your comment. You obviously don't realize how much time I spend on this forum. If you knew that you wouldn't have thought that. I have been on this forum since 8am this morning (way to long) reading and posting. I have not once went and visited any other forums during this time. I am a member to just about every green industry forum out there but I hardly ever post or visit them. I will every-once in awhile go visit them just to say hi to some of the old members, but mostly I talked to them guys through email. I do not participate in the battle between forums but losing members to them does concern me. I have always said that I will go were the members are. At this point in time that place is here. I wish they were all here. I believe Sean knows this to be true. He loves stats, all he has to do is look at mine. I am willing to copy and paste post counts etc from other forums if it will help prove my point.

[Soupy]

I was to late to add to my last post. I just went and looked at my stats at the other forum and I have started a total of 11 threads and the last being 03/04. I have a total of 112 post total. Now look at my stats here.

I am one of the more dedicated members of this site.

[Charles]

Again, these are just my feelings/opinions and I am only speaking for myself. But [ b] if you are honest about your situation you will gain a lot more respect for your actions [/b]. I completely understand the pickle you are put in day after day. I would probably do the same thing when it comes to greasing the sponsors . Just don't try and smoke screen it . That is what gets under my skin. To think we are that stupid . Just for the record Sean, I do not hate you :) I don't hate anyone for that matter. There is room in this world for all of us and if we try hard enough we can live in harmony.

Jeez! You sure have a funny way of showing your loyality. I would not like to see what you have to say to someone you hate. Implying that the owner of this site who just answered everyone of your questions point by point, is not being honest? And that he is "smoke and screening it" And that he thinks the members are so stupid that he can get away with it?
Talk this way to a guy who works very hard so you can leanr and play here for free?
Didn't you make a post in the OT where you said you didn't think sometimes before you speak?
I think you are sincere in trying to help the forum but imo bashing the owner in public is no way to do it. I dont even think I would say that to him in private.
You alright Soupy but please write things down on paper and let somebody in your house who DOES think read over and approve it BEFORE you post lol
Or I will have to proclaim next week "Soupy Week"

[DUSTYCEDAR]

thats funny

[Soupy]

Jeez! You sure have a funny way of showing your loyality. I would not like to see what you have to say to someone you hate. Implying that the owner of this site who just answered everyone of your questions point by point, is not being honest? And that he is "smoke and screening it" And that he thinks the members are so stupid that he can get away with it?
Talk this way to a guy who works very hard so you can leanr and play here for free?
Didn't you make a post in the OT where you said you didn't think sometimes before you speak?
I think you are sincere in trying to help the forum but imo bashing the owner in public is no way to do it. I dont even think I would say that to him in private.
You alright Soupy but please write things down on paper and let somebody in your house who DOES think read over and approve it BEFORE you post lol
Or I will have to proclaim next week "Soupy Week"

I love this site, I could care less about who owns it. I never called Sean any names. I only implied that he has a problem and shouldn't take it lightly. I never told him point blank he was doing anything wrong.
If I was going to start in on Sean I would have started by telling him another fast way to lose members is by calling them names (whiners etc.). I even said that I sympathies with him. I admitted that I would be greasing the sponsor too if I was in his situation.

I said that in the OT forum because I was trying to be the bigger man about things. I was upset that a good member was disposed of over something stupid as this. I didn't want it to turn into one of these threads. I meant what I said in those threads though. Also I want to point out that I didn't say anything bad about Sean in those threads either. I simply stated when asked about a member being banned that we wouldn't know because the latest string of baning did not have banned under their name. I then said that if we keep losing members that I would be leaving too. Frankly I am sick of it. It has nothing at all to do with any other forum, it all starts right here. I have proven that I am not a active member at the other forums. Last time Jodi implied that, I copy and pasted my stats from the other forum.

I guess I could have said nothing but then that would put me into the pissed off members that doesn't say anything group.

I said my peace and that is all I wanted to do. If you have anything else to say to me directly, please PM me and I will be happy to talk with you. I do not want to add any more negative vibes to this thread. I wanted to be finish a couple of post ago.

[Williams Services]

Question:
Wouldn't this whole thing blow over if we just walk away from this thread and go on about our lives, business as usual? Continue posting honestly ... I think that's all that is being requested here. Nobody needs to continue to stir the pot ...