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Smitty58
02-15-2005, 01:37 AM
How many times do you get asked that? What do they think, you do this for free? Of course I know what they are asking it justs bugs me. It seems like people think if you are a part timer then you are somehow less professional or something. The only thing that seperates my company from the "full timer" is they probably have more customers. I have all the same legal junk that a "full timer" has. So when I was asked that question yesterday I replied..."Well it's one of them". I used to answer ,no I work full time somewhere else and do this on my days off. The truth is anyone that owns their own business knows you put a lot of "off the clock" time in doing all the stuff you have to do to run a business. So in reality you are working 2 full time jobs. So how do you do answer that question?

Grass Busters Inc.
02-15-2005, 01:51 AM
My favorite was when i was in high school (last year). people would ask if I had a job, I would respond " yes I own a small landscaping company" (they respond) oh that's nice do you have a real job ? :angry: I was making 12 times what any one ells was in that school (unless I sold drugs).

Oh well even now when people ask what I am doing now that I have graduated I respond "still growing my business" (they respond) oh are you going to school to get a real job :angry: ?

Smitty58 I think you said it right, what do they think this is a charity service?

Anthony-MB
02-15-2005, 02:03 AM
Bloody hell i'm over 35 - and I'm all ways asked why do i mow lawns..
Ahhmm to make more money than YOU... no that doens't go well
.. so i lie .. to pay off bills... to buy another house ..
they like it when i say want to buy another house ..
so thats my line .. and i'm sticking to it

of the 32 custumers last year 8 asked me that question
:waving:

SWD
02-15-2005, 07:03 AM
I have never been asked that question.
With the employees and I in uniform, driving lettered trucks pulling enclosed trailers that carry modern, clean equipment, it is readily apparent we are professional and serious.
The income is approximately equal to what I made building golf courses throughout the mid west and asia. I just don't live in motels anymore. :)

the scaper
02-15-2005, 08:08 AM
I've been asked that question plenty of times, mostly in the begining of my business. I always wondered why people ask this question (not that I really care). I think there's differant reasons why people ask. A new customer may ask because they're trying to figure if you're going to be dependable. Or they may be trying to figure your level of sucess with your business so they can judge for themselves weather or not you know what you're doing. Then there are others, these may be family members or fellow employees from your regular or last job- who think you're not worth a grain of salt because you're not following the masses by punching a clock and being a societal slave like they are, and deep down wishing they were in your shoes. Who knows? ..whatever, But rest assured that when someone askes, you are being judged by some measure.

65hoss
02-15-2005, 08:13 AM
Awe...my favorite is sitting at the gas station with $60k of truck, trailer and equipment and some idiot asking..."do you cut grass?"

MacPhersonlawn
02-15-2005, 08:41 AM
I know when someone askes me what I do that I feel proud to say I own my own Lawn Care Company (be it ever so small). Never felt this good working as a Marketing Director for a national financial company for almost 30 years. And no one has ever treated me as anything but professional. As someone said earlier, acting professional and looking professional will get you treated as professional. I see so many LCO's that look like they just crawled out of the swamp.

Gene $immons
02-15-2005, 08:48 AM
I had a customer call me the other day and ask if I was still in business.

Like it wouldn't have been a big surprise to him if I would have said no.

olderthandirt
02-15-2005, 09:09 AM
Awe...my favorite is sitting at the gas station with $60k of truck, trailer and equipment and some idiot asking..."do you cut grass?"

And your green from grass cliping and sweat and then the, "must have just finished mowing huh?"

Mac

CamLand
02-15-2005, 09:15 AM
Awe...my favorite is sitting at the gas station with $60k of truck, trailer and equipment and some idiot asking..."do you cut grass?"

LOL!! at least once a week I get that...

CamLand
02-15-2005, 09:18 AM
The other classic is "Do you work in the area?" when pumping gas...

mtdman
02-15-2005, 10:40 AM
I have a long time customer that routinely asks me if I have a second job. When I tell her no, she asks why I don't show up immediately to do her snow or why I'm a few days behind when it rains. Then I point out to her I have 75+ other customers to take care of as well as her lawn/snow. I think she doesn't believe me, because she continues to ask me at least twice a year.

My favorite is when people ask me what I do in the winter. When I tell them absolutely nothing other than a few snow clearings, they get a weird look on their face. The next question is usually how do I afford that, and I tell them I make plenty of money in 8 months for the whole year. I can tell that they either don't believe me, or it kills them.

:D

crawdad
02-15-2005, 10:58 AM
I have a long time customer that routinely asks me if I have a second job. When I tell her no, she asks why I don't show up immediately to do her snow or why I'm a few days behind when it rains. Then I point out to her I have 75+ other customers to take care of as well as her lawn/snow. I think she doesn't believe me, because she continues to ask me at least twice a year.

My favorite is when people ask me what I do in the winter. When I tell them absolutely nothing other than a few snow clearings, they get a weird look on their face. The next question is usually how do I afford that, and I tell them I make plenty of money in 8 months for the whole year. I can tell that they either don't believe me, or it kills them.

:D

Some people are looking for someone who does it part-time, they think they'll get a better price. They may even get a better price, but they're looking for a new part-timer every year. By this I don't mean to put down ALL part-timers, so don't bother flaming me. I'm talking about the public's perspective, not mine.
I have people always ask about the winter. It's almost as common a question as
1) How much for an average lawn?
or
2) How many lawns do you mow?
I answer these two with wisecracks, as I feel it's none of their business.

When they ask what I do in the winter, I tell them I chase the old lady around the house, and I caught her twice last winter.
When making a deposit last summer, the bank teller asked me what I do in the winter. I told her I make withdrawals.
Crawdad

Updog
02-15-2005, 11:29 AM
I have never been asked that question either. We wear embrioderd polo shirts and use new equipment. I've seen plenty guys in a tee shirt and a pair of Nike's that swear they run a professional company. If some one sees you in the yard they shouldn't have to ask you what you are doing there. I realize you have to start some where but to me it is just as important to the welfare of my company that we look as dressed as we leave our properties looking.

LB1234
02-15-2005, 11:50 AM
I have never been asked that question either. We wear embrioderd polo shirts and use new equipment. I've seen plenty guys in a tee shirt and a pair of Nike's that swear they run a professional company. If some one sees you in the yard they shouldn't have to ask you what you are doing there. I realize you have to start some where but to me it is just as important to the welfare of my company that we look as dressed as we leave our properties looking.


I'd have to agree. Although we don't have uniforms...per say. Couldn't afford it last year but we made sure to have either green or bache pants/short (carhart to be exact--find they last longer...plus all the pockets) and plain grey T-shirts. Hopefully after the money starts coming in over the next 6-8 weeks we can go get some shirts made up.

My brother suggested going to polo shirts. My question is...if you can answer honestly...do you see a difference in comfort between a polo shirt and a regular T-shirt. Well, we are looking at the t-shirts that the end of the sleeves and the collar match the pant color...just so it isn't a plain ol' T-shirt.

A specific question is for breathability. Do you find yourseld sweating more in the polo than say a light cotton T? Any input would be appreciated as in July/August it can be in the high 90's with humidity you can cut with a knife.

LB1234
02-15-2005, 11:52 AM
sorry, forgot to spell check --- "bache" is supposed to be beige...

Evergreenpros
02-15-2005, 12:02 PM
My favorite was when i was in high school (last year). people would ask if I had a job, I would respond " yes I own a small landscaping company" (they respond) oh that's nice do you have a real job ? :angry: I was making 12 times what any one ells was in that school (unless I sold drugs).

Oh well even now when people ask what I am doing now that I have graduated I respond "still growing my business" (they respond) oh are you going to school to get a real job :angry: ?

Smitty58 I think you said it right, what do they think this is a charity service?


It's FORM (Family, Occupation, Recreation, Money) It's the standard flow of a conversation. If it doesn't appear you have a family people will go to the next, occupation. If you tell them you own a business, 75% of the population will have a deer in the headlight look, they can't relate. So they keep prying. They aren't degrading you, they're just trying to find some common ground. :D

dishboy
02-15-2005, 12:07 PM
The other classic is "Do you work in the area?" when pumping gas...



That's a fair question, I gas near home yet 99% of my work is in another town.

jtkplc
02-15-2005, 01:17 PM
My favorite was when i was in high school (last year). people would ask if I had a job, I would respond " yes I own a small landscaping company" (they respond) oh that's nice do you have a real job ? :angry: I was making 12 times what any one ells was in that school (unless I sold drugs).

Oh well even now when people ask what I am doing now that I have graduated I respond "still growing my business" (they respond) oh are you going to school to get a real job :angry: ?

Smitty58 I think you said it right, what do they think this is a charity service?


I hear ya man, I'm graduated from High School last year too and have had a customer and an ex-girl friend ask me why I don't get a real job. The customer told me that mowing lawns was for middle schoolers and retired men, and that I need to go to college. I don't think either of them realize I make way more than them in a year and I only work 8 months!

Jason Rose
02-15-2005, 01:31 PM
I get asked if I do this for a living too by a few newer customers each year. Most people know how long it took them to mow a lawn (a few hours) and then the look at how much they pay me to mow that lawn, 20 or 25 dollars, and they do a little math i guess and figure I am maybe mowing a few lawns a day. Their next question is always, "well how many lawns do you do?" when I tell them around 65 or so they always about drop. "by yourself???" they ask. Well yeah, it's not that hard when you have the right equipment and you can do in 20 minutes what takes them the better part of a saturday afternoon.

gslawncare
02-15-2005, 03:36 PM
go to WWW.automotiveworkwear.com, the short sleeve tuck in, button down with collar shirts are only 9 bucks a peice and work pants that fit properly are another 12. Another is Amtex.com, thick nice plain t-shirts are only 3.05 and polos are around 8. Were talking about 30 bucks per guy per change. I paid for my guys uniforms and bought them three changes. It's there responsibility to look neat I just buy the stuff I want them to where. It's not about money, uniforms are part of overhead just like equipment, gas, insurance and advertising. If you say, "I didn't make enough money, or don't have enough," obviously you don't have your priorities in the right order.

Jeff@SGLC.ca
02-15-2005, 03:42 PM
I like the :waving: hey look at me High Visibility.

dishboy
02-15-2005, 04:44 PM
go to WWW.automotiveworkwear.com, the short sleeve tuck in, button down with collar shirts are only 9 bucks a peice and work pants that fit properly are another 12. Another is Amtex.com, thick nice plain t-shirts are only 3.05 and polos are around 8. Were talking about 30 bucks per guy per change. I paid for my guys uniforms and bought them three changes. It's there responsibility to look neat I just buy the stuff I want them to where. It's not about money, uniforms are part of overhead just like equipment, gas, insurance and advertising. If you say, "I didn't make enough money, or don't have enough," obviously you don't have your priorities in the right order.


One of the luxuries of working for myself is, I don't have to wear NO STINKIN UNIFORM, but thanks anyway's.

youngbuck
02-15-2005, 05:17 PM
last year we bought our scag from a old man who owns a retirement trailer court in my area. and every time we would see him he would say did u make ur first million yet? and then he would laugh. i know he was just joking but it was really discouraging when he would say that he didn't have to b a dic about it

meets1
02-15-2005, 06:35 PM
Sad thing is my dad still says that "you'll just have to see what comes down the line". His way of saying someday you'll have a real job. I have been in this business since I was 8 years old mowing the neighborhood. College grad in business admin & financeing. Building, mowers, trucks, trailers, you guys know the list of tools, employee's, in fact I employe him on Saturdays when we need the extra help.

When my wife and I go out, be it family stuff, friends, ect, and I get what do you do - I am a contractor. Pretty much ends the decussion about my life.

DennisF
02-15-2005, 06:37 PM
I got a call for a bid about 6 months ago. The wife answers the door and yells to her husband "The gardener is here". I bit my lip for a moment and waited for the husband to arrive. He said "How much do you charge". My response was "Gardeners are well paid professionals... how much do you want to pay?" For some reason he didn't see the humor in that and grumbled "I don't want a professional, I just want the grass cut". As I was turning to leave I said to him "Sir, I don't cut grass, I manicure lawns and that makes me a professional...goodbye". Funny story, but true.

Smitty58
02-15-2005, 07:35 PM
Like I said in the original post. I've got everything that the "full timers" have ,insurance, equipment, new truck, new trailer, matching shirts and hats,
website, take credit cards ,etc. But I still get asked that ,sometimes on the phone so they have no idea of the whole equipment thing. All of those who answered they have never been asked this or any other dumb question I find hard to believe.

Jeff@SGLC.ca
02-15-2005, 07:47 PM
I don't think I've gotten asked that question in a while. When I was 18 and aerating ppl's lawns I got asked a lot. The question was, is this your house or do you aerate? I would say I aerate and then they would want to know when i could do their house next.

Itsgottobegreen
02-16-2005, 01:08 AM
[QUOTE=jtkplc] an ex-girl friend ask me why I don't get a real job.
QUOTE]

My ex told me to get a real job. She told her best friend who told me, that she wanted me to have a 9-5 job behind a desk. Yea right!!!! :nono: She also said to me that I was never going to make it unless I finished college. There is no future in landscaping. Well I am still in college and there is going to be a nice shiny new F-550 4x4 dump in the driveway by the end of this year that will be paid for in cash. payup Boy am I glad she is my ex.

My current girlfriend (future wife) thinks that it is the coolest thing in the world that I am self employed. Her father is the only one that doesn't like that fact. Which is also funny. Since doing this part time because of college. I still make more than the guy that married his oldest daughter. And he is 27, me 19. :p

Some of my best customers keep saying I will make my more them then by the time I am there age. Most of them are 35 to 45 years old.

Todd's lawncare
02-16-2005, 01:58 AM
[QUOTE=jtkplc] an ex-girl friend ask me why I don't get a real job.
QUOTE]

My ex told me to get a real job. She told her best friend who told me, that she wanted me to have a 9-5 job behind a desk. Yea right!!!! :nono: She also said to me that I was never going to make it unless I finished college. There is no future in landscaping. Well I am still in college and there is going to be a nice shiny new F-550 4x4 dump in the driveway by the end of this year that will be paid for in cash. payup Boy am I glad she is my ex.

My current girlfriend (future wife) thinks that it is the coolest thing in the world that I am self employed. Her father is the only one that doesn't like that fact. Which is also funny. Since doing this part time because of college. I still make more than the guy that married his oldest daughter. And he is 27, me 19. :p

Some of my best customers keep saying I will make my more them then by the time I am there age. Most of them are 35 to 45 years old.
19 part time and in school why do you need all the new equipment ? let me take a guess you got 3 guy working for ya its one thing to be in it but to brag all you do is make more then every tom di*k and Harry is another thing and you been doing it while you were still in diapers

Guthrie&Co
02-16-2005, 03:26 AM
I get the same respose when i tellpeople i am growing christmas trees. they have no idea

Itsgottobegreen
02-16-2005, 08:06 PM
[QUOTE=Itsgottobegreen]
19 part time and in school why do you need all the new equipment ? let me take a guess you got 3 guy working for ya its one thing to be in it but to brag all you do is make more then every tom di*k and Harry is another thing and you been doing it while you were still in diapers

No only two part time guys.
I don't brag about it how much I make. (note I didn't say exactly how much). I roll ever dime back into my business. I got free rent, college tap pick up by the state of MD, so my expenses are low. Most of my equipment was bought used, except the newest stander, some of the 2 stroke stuff and the F-150 bought 3 years ago. There is very little in the bank.

I need a new truck because I can't find a used switch and go dump truck. No one wants to sell theirs. It also going to be one bad mother of a plow truck too. :D I plan on having this truck for a very long time. So might as well buy it new, since you will always know how it was driven and maintained.

yrdandgardenhandyman
02-16-2005, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=jtkplc] an ex-girl friend ask me why I don't get a real job.
QUOTE]



Some of my best customers keep saying I will make my more them then by the time I am there age. Most of them are 35 to 45 years old.



What?? I'm sure I'm not gots no book larnin' is why I can't not unerstood this. :rolleyes:

Eho
02-16-2005, 11:31 PM
I get a lot of the questions you guys are saying on here. It does crack me up when I can see them doing they math in their head trying to figure out that I make decent money. Also, I love being asked:" Do you have your own equipment?" I just kinda grim as I bust out my commercial grade Toro and echo equipment.

Soupy
02-17-2005, 12:38 AM
I hear ya man, I'm graduated from High School last year too and have had a customer and an ex-girl friend ask me why I don't get a real job. The customer told me that mowing lawns was for middle schoolers and retired men, and that I need to go to college. I don't think either of them realize I make way more than them in a year and I only work 8 months!

This entire post is not directed at you, I just happen to grab you out of the mist. Don't take this as me picking on you.

I wish my customers thought I was a poor man needing a job. They do the math in their head and think I am rich and don't need to be paid on time. I wish they knew how to calculate operating cost into their figures. I also wish all the newbies knew how to calculate these cost too :cry:. I'm not complaining because I do make decent money, but some of you guys talk like you make more then everyone in the world. I highly doubt all you young guys are making way more money then any of your customers. Not if you are 100% legit and bought all your own equipment etc. Maybe after several years in business but not at 19. Wait until you all start supporting families and then come back and tell me about all your riches.

You can make a lot of money in this business but lets get real guys. I hear it all the time on these forums about how you make all this money. It is usually coming from the young guys. I do give you guys credit for working hard and wanting the good life, but it isn't all gravy like you guys think it is. Believe me, I have been doing this for awhile.

Don't let me deter you though, there is money to be made and it is better then working for the man (most of the time). But you will not make real money until you have been at it for a while. To me, you are not making anything worth mentioning until you at least clear $60k a year since that figure is easily attainable by a educated person working for the man.

Sorry for ranting, but maybe if some of this mis notion that this type of work in the gold rush of the 21st century then maybe everyone wouldn't be jumping into this work just to find out that it actually does take hard work and dedication to make it happen.

Crap, half these new guys on here asking about starting up are mentioning having partners. There defiantly isn't enough money to go around to support two families, unless you work really hard and realize it isn't happening over night. Don't quit your day job just yet.

meets1
02-17-2005, 08:21 AM
Soupy - well stated. I has there once myself as I am sure you were to - being young!

After I got married, I started wondering where all the money was. I was busier, ect but like everything, it cost more all of sudden being married. Although my wife worked, now only 3 days a week due to our baby boy who is now 5 months old. Insurance cost rise, you help pay mortage on house, for those that are married - you know what I mean.

I am glad I started younr b/c I was able to have money saved for that 20% down payment on house, equipment was paid for, trucks /trailers paid for. So it does pay to think ahead, save some money and enjoy being young.

I have a great wife and kid now but looking back on those years, they were alot of fun!

captaingreen
02-17-2005, 09:10 AM
Well said Soupy. People do tend to overlook all the unseen business expenses. If I were able to keep all of my gross - the price of gas (some people seem to think that is the only major expense) I would have an awesome income and the mortage paid off in about 10 years. Oh well, I'll get there, it is only my third year.

richard coffman
02-17-2005, 11:48 AM
I'd have to agree. Although we don't have uniforms...per say. Couldn't afford it last year but we made sure to have either green or bache pants/short (carhart to be exact--find they last longer...plus all the pockets) and plain grey T-shirts. Hopefully after the money starts coming in over the next 6-8 weeks we can go get some shirts made up.

My brother suggested going to polo shirts. My question is...if you can answer honestly...do you see a difference in comfort between a polo shirt and a regular T-shirt. Well, we are looking at the t-shirts that the end of the sleeves and the collar match the pant color...just so it isn't a plain ol' T-shirt.

A specific question is for breathability. Do you find yourseld sweating more in the polo than say a light cotton T? Any input would be appreciated as in July/August it can be in the high 90's with humidity you can cut with a knife.

I've worn polo shirts for the last 9 years in the hot summer months and found they do just fine. I did some research a few years ago and found the PING, a major supporter of golf equipment has got polo shirts that work very well in the hot sun and are very confortable. fading isn't a problem with them either as long as you don't go out with the same shirt every day. I've bought 12 of those polo shirts (cost me 270.00 for them all from PING),a few years ago and they still look good. I figure if it can work for golfers who play out in the sun all day long and look good, it's got to work good for me. just my 2 cents.

Respectfully,

Richard/Owner
salt lake city, Utah

SOMM
02-17-2005, 01:18 PM
Smitty ! Good thread, hail yeh! Thanks, made my Day !!

Wife’s yellin down the hall at me “what the heck’s so funny?!?!?” – I show her the thread, and we’re both rotflol in unison (w/ you, 65hoss and Older). She’s answered the office phone from customers/prospects with some of the same comments we get in the field, lol)

We’ve had some real great fun throughout the years while wearing uniforms:

“do you work for that company?” - “nah, just a member of their Bowling Team helping out so they can get to the tournament on time tonight”

(el-cheapo’s approaching the hired help <evil grin>): “So, you do any ‘moonlighting’ or work on your own time after work or on weekends for cash?”
-“Oh sure, I’m a free lance investigator for homeowners insurance companies, reporting the hiring of the unlicensed and uninsured working on their properties”.

Uniforms work well for us too Updog, gsl:
White Hat w/ green brim or tan Aussie bush hat, Green collar/pocket shirt tucked in, tan or blue (dry or wet day’s wear) elastic waist slacks with green poly wove belt, pre-shrunk durable 100% cotton.

Be sure your uniformed crews are supervised well to enforce the dress code you establish, lol, so that your "summer interns" aren't stripping down to their bikini swimwear and fitting their roller blades and skate boards between stops (true story of girlfriend and boyfriend long-haired bandmates on the same lawn route - wow did we ever get some calls that day, angered parents and job applicants alike!!! We seprated them on 2 different routes the next day, and they stayed long enough to get their 1st paychecks).

Sounds like RichCoffman hit the nail on the head with the shirt supplier, LB - gonna check that out because our Eddie Bauer collar/pocket shirts are starting to show some fading since we got them in ’99 from a Truck Stop where we get our diesel fuel. Thanks Rich.

Lest we “been out there too long with the trees and shrubs” forgetting the “people/relationships” portion of the biz - Evergreen is absolutely right about the Family, Occupation, Recreation, Money-goals FORM (Ever -you must be a Tommy Hopkins Champion too! http://www.tomhopkins.com/ ). You can indeed profitably turn the conversation around with just a few well put compliments and questions of our own, building personal credibility with them in your FORM questions. Great point !!
Like Brian Tracy says: “telling is not selling, asking the right progression of questions is” http://www.briantracy.com/

Best Regards all & thanks Smitty!!

SOMM
02-17-2005, 02:03 PM
i like the strategy Crawdad !! Using their "part-timer" freudian-slip to your advantage!!

We're going to answer both those questions this year with an idea from a signature from "Plowsite":

"it's all set up on a scheduled route, so that way we're not breaking your billfold while you're not breaking your back!"

gonna use the ones about the chasing/catching and the bank teller
rotflol !!! :D

Groundcover Solutions
02-17-2005, 03:27 PM
Well still get comments asking me if I am still going to school and what I plan on doing in the future. I have a $300,000 + truck and accounts with some of the largest landsacpe contractors in the state four employees a shop and the list goes on. These people just don't understand that a 20 year old can own a successful company. It is funny I know I make more than them but I just let it go. Because i am still going to school to get my bachelors in Criminal Justice because i want to be a reserve police officer for my community on my down time in the winter and days off. So I just tell them I am going to be a cop when I grow up.

yrdandgardenhandyman
06-11-2005, 09:46 PM
Then there are others, these may be family members or fellow employees from your regular or last job- who think you're not worth a grain of salt because you're not following the masses by punching a clock and being a societal slave like they are, and deep down wishing they were in your shoes. Who knows? ..whatever, But rest assured that when someone askes, you are being judged by some measure.



That is the truth in a nutshell. Couldn't have said it better. Every day is a real challenge but the freedom is real, too. I have more drive in the few years doing this than I ever had in 27 years working in stank hole, dark, depressing, soul crushing factories.

Scapegoat
06-11-2005, 11:00 PM
Then there are others, these may be family members or fellow employees from your regular or last job- who think you're not worth a grain of salt because you're not following the masses by punching a clock and being a societal slave like they are, and deep down wishing they were in your shoes. Who knows? ..whatever, But rest assured that when someone askes, you are being judged by some measure.

I'm of the opinion that most non-self employed people, including best friends and family hope you fail. Not because they wish anything bad upon you personally, but simply because they gave up on their dream of working for themselves at some point. Would make them feel better about themselves if you fail too.

And you would think small business owners would be protective and not want to talk to you about how they succeed and do business for fear of competition. But I find other small business owners, especially LCO's are more than happy to chat about mowers, grass and how to kill invasive plants, etc.
And I think it's for the same reason I like talking to them. I like talking to people that work hard, have ambition, have goals, have dreams and have the will to make those dreams happen.

Frontier-Lawn
06-11-2005, 11:08 PM
of the 32 custumers last year 8 asked me that question
:waving:
and they wonder why they get dropped. :p :p