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D-Man
02-06-2001, 09:18 PM
Has anyone had any experience with the new Crabgrass killer that allows spring turf seeding? I think it's a post emergent spray.

bob
02-06-2001, 10:44 PM
Are you talking about "Drive". It was something like $85 a bottle at Lesco. I didn't but it.

lawnboy53
02-07-2001, 02:03 AM
I've used Drive for post emergent problems for the last 2 years, it works great. It will knockout big crabgrass and foxtail, use a sticker with it also. Have not tried it on new seed in the spring, check the label.

GreenQuest Lawn
02-07-2001, 02:49 AM
Drive is great! havent tried it for seed but it is supposed to have about a two week residual effect. its also compatible with alot of other products so you can mix with your normal product and we have found it gives better results on most weeds.

D-Man
02-07-2001, 10:31 AM
Thanks for the info. The stuff I briefly read about in a KSU extension report is Tupersan (siduron).

lawrence stone
02-07-2001, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by D-Man
Thanks for the info. The stuff I briefly read about in a KSU extension report is Tupersan (siduron).

This is the product you would use when reseeding in the spring. It does not harm to the "good" grass.

Mscotrid
02-08-2001, 12:09 AM
Tupersan is overpriced and has a short residual. You would be better off to get your seed in the ground as early as possible and after germination come back in with Dimension.

Dimension has pre-post emergent control

lawrence stone
02-08-2001, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Mscotrid
Tupersan is overpriced and has a short residual. You would be better off to get your seed in the ground as early as possible and after germination come back in with Dimension.

Dimension has pre-post emergent control

This is really bad advice. You need to go and read the label.

Exactly where did you get your pesticide license?

In a Cracker Jack box?

GroundKprs
02-08-2001, 06:41 PM
From the Dimension label: "This product may be used on seeded, sodded, or sprigged lawns and ornamental turfs that are well established. The grass must have developed a good root system and a uniform stand, and have received at least two mowings following its seeding, sodding or sprigging before it can receive its first application of this product."

When establishing a new lawn in any climate prone to crabgrass, in the germination time frame of crabgrass, it is better to prevent the growth of the weed, rather than try to play catchup after it has germinated. For each crabgrass plant germinated, a number of desireable grass plants are smothered or not allowed to germinate. While a number of post emergent products are available, using this strategy can result in a weak stand of grass.

Tupersan is a trade name for the active ingredient siduron, which has been the only pre-emergent control for crabgrass in a new seeding for many years. Cost is truly 2-3 times most other preemergents, and only effective for 30 days, so in warmer climates repeat applications may be necessary. However when the success of the seeding can be dramatically increased by 1 or 2 applications, this is an economic step to take.

In our area, a spring seeding in a crabgrass prone setting will usually need just one application of siduron to allow for good start of the turf. Of course the siduron application is not made until prime germination time in our area, after the fading of lilac blossoms. For us to seed April 1 and apply siduron at the time of seeding would be a waste of product - by the time crabgrass germinates the chemical is well on its way to being ineffective.

Another problem with other preemergents after a new seeding is that almost all pre-ems, with the exception of Ronstar - which can only be used on commercial and golf turf - are root inhibitors. We will not even use any other than siduron as a pre-em in a lawn seeded last fall, in order to enhance root growth. It is my experience that use of root inhibiting pre-ems, even on recently sodded lawns, reduces rooting dramatically.

Mscotrid
02-09-2001, 12:05 AM
Lawrence<

I take great exception towards your post. I'm not sure how you run your your business in Pennsylvania but I can tell you here in Kansas this procedure works rather well.

I can seed lawns in Feb/March depending on weather and by the time the annual grasses rear there head June/July our lawns are growing quite aggressivly. I can come back in with Dimension and have terrific results. I have not seen any root inhibitation as touched by the "groundskeeper". I'm not saying that does not happen, I just hav'nt had any problems. Try not to be to harsh about something you might not be familiar with.

One thing I have learned about this industry, There are 100 ways of doing something and 99 of them are probably correct.

Let me ask you a question? have you ever sprayed round-up over the top of junipers? Have you ever used Round-up as a controled growth regulator?

Good luck to all of you with your seeding efforts

KirbysLawn
02-09-2001, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by lawrence stone
Originally posted by Mscotrid
Tupersan is overpriced and has a short residual. You would be better off to get your seed in the ground as early as possible and after germination come back in with Dimension.

Dimension has pre-post emergent control

This is really bad advice. You need to go and read the label.

Exactly where did you get your pesticide license?

In a Cracker Jack box?

Could you elaborate on which part of the post is incorrect and give us guidance on the correct information?

lawrence stone
02-09-2001, 12:03 PM
Jim explained it all in his post why this is a bad practice.

Mscotrid wrote:

>You would be better off to get your seed in the ground as early as possible and after germination come back in with Dimension.

1.If you apply this product when the turf is new you will stress the plant while it should be building up reserves for the summer sress to come.

2.Buy not applying Tupersan at time of seeding the the turf has to compete with all the weeds that will germinate.

3.If you do not apply tapersan the lawn won't be as thick do to weeds and the customer will demand you kill the weeds.
This is a callback and results in lost income.

The above applys to commercial and residential turf.
When it comes to sports fields I treat the fall sports fields in the spring in a completely different fashion.

GroundKprs
02-09-2001, 02:54 PM
If you have never seen the effect of root inhibiting pre-emergents on grass roots, here is a sample.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1502894&a=11480086&p=40491951

The plants on the left received no pre-em; those on the right received pre-em after germination. ( larger image (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1502894&a=11480086&p=40492952) ) These are crabgrass plants dug up early July; germ here is usually around mid-late May. The poor guy at lower right had one root below the limits of pre-em barrier, and that was the only decent root. Roots on all plants dug up that had received pre-em after germination were just stubs - can see it in enlargement in plant upper right.

Now, since new roots of desireable grasses grow from the crown, which is above the pre-em barrier, the use of pre-em will inhibit new root growth in your desireable grasses. To my knowledge, the only pre-ems that will not have this effect are Ronstar and siduron. I have gone out with another operator on his lawns, and told him which ones had pre-em and which did not, just by looking at rooting in each lawn. Roots views are obtained using a cup cutter; try to get a 6" deep sample.

In the case of a newly seeded lawn, application of a pre-em - other than siduron or Ronstar - sooner than a year after seeding is going to reduce the vitality of the turf by reducing root growth. (IMHO)

Wish I had taken pictures of Dr W's lawn. This was a 23K lawn sodded in Dec. Had pre-em for 4 years, and lawn was riddled with patch disease, dollar spot, and red thread all that time. All this time, there was absolutely no root growth into the soil - we attributed that to the extremely poor soil. In 5th yr, Dr W wanted to overseed, so pre-em was not applied. In mid-March of 6th year, roots had grown to 3"-4" deep; By mid-April, roots were 6"-8" deep. The only difference was that pre-em had not been applied.

For a production oriented operation, pre-em is a good thing, because you can rack up the apps with minimal fuss from clients. When disease or other pests harm the turf, they can be blamed on the disease, insect or other problem, and more $$$ can be churned. If you are challenged to grow a really healthy lawn, you will use a heck of a lot less pesticide, and your clients will pay more for your time involved in performing an intelligent, responsible service.