Thread: Organic's
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Old 08-20-2003, 04:03 AM
Dchall_San_Antonio Dchall_San_Antonio is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 330
Originally posted by GroundKprs
For A DIY consumer, cost is perhaps similar for organics and synthetics. However, as anyone in business can recognize, it is a lot more expensive to use an organic program. Cannot transport 5x the bulk for the same cost, can't store 5x the bulk for the same cost. And sure as heck can't get it spread at the same cost! Labor cost to spread 5 tons instead of one ton would be quite a dramatic increase, and a man is not going to be able to cover a daily route that can be done with synthetics.
This is a good point. Add volume to the concern about weight. I do have a friend in Canada who's a greens-keeper for several par 3 golf course. He read what y'all just read last year and went organic using corn meal. So far it seems to have solved all his problems, but it hasn't even been a year yet. We'll see how it goes, but he's absolutely thrilled. He writes me every week with pictures. He applied corn meal one time and that's all so far. He isn't complaining about anything.

You have just be schooled...............But is it the truth or just enviromentalist propaganda? Have to admit if I were a teacher I would give it a A+ as an essay even if it was one sided. Didn't address weed control, insect control or fungus problems. Ever notice that the best growing grass tends to have fungus problems?
I've never been called an environmentalist before. I'm LOL! Whether what I said is the truth or not will remain open to question I suppose. I appreciate the A+ - just wish I had learned to write before I was 28.

Fungus problems are addressed with corn meal, believe it or not. The Texas A&M University at Stephenville did the research on that. They found that using corn meal against the common fungal diseases on peanut crops had the same effect as crop rotation. For those of you who don't recognize what that means the farmers don't have to rotate out of peanuts and into grass for a year or two while the field recovers from disease. It means they can plant peanuts year after year if they use corn meal against the fungus. It also turns out that the same fungi that attack lawns are the ones in peanuts. Corn meal is a preventative and a cure for lawns with disease. The problem with corn meal, if you want to call it a problem, is that it takes 3 weeks to show results. But you can rely in on it. It works every day of the year, in the heat or cold (above 50 degrees F), rain or shine, day or night. Show me any chemical fungicide that works under all conditions on all diseases.

Corn meal is revealing itself to be the most important discovery in organic farming in the past year. Corn meal works by bringing another disease in to combat the first disease. A fungus in the Trichoderma (try-ko-DER-mah) family likes to grow on corn meal. The Trichoderma fungus attacks the cell walls of the disease causing fungus which causes it to die.

Insect control often depends on the insect but beneficial nematodes are coming into the forefront as THE insect control for grub worms, flea beetles, fleas, ticks (in the winter), ants, chiggers, noseums, and some others that I'm drawing a blank on their names. Beneficial nematodes are the ones that attack insects, not plants. They come on a blue sponge that gets wrung out in a bucket of water and then you spray with the water. The nematodes work by bringing a disease to the insects living in the soil. The insects die in about 24-48 hours from the disease. In the mean time the nematodes lay eggs in the insect and move on. The eggs hatch and the young nematodes actually feed on the disease organism inside the dead insect. Gory but effective. The disease only affects insects, not mammals, birds, or fish.

Weed control is handled by deep, infrequent watering and by mowing. Deep (an hour or two at a time) and infrequent (no more than once a week) watering allows the surface of the soil to dry out completely. Shallow rooted weeds die off while the deeper rooted grasses continue to get water from the depths. And if the grass is mowed at the highest setting on the deck, the grass itself will shade out sun loving weeds as well as the weed seeds that need sun to sprout. Some grasses, notably bermuda, bent, and centipede, must be mowed at 1/2 inch so they don't work with this, but when mowed at 1/2 inch, those are pretty dense turf and actually provide the same weed preventing benefit. Tall grass also has deeper, drought resistant, roots. And it supposedly uses less water due to the increased number of stomata on the long blades. Apparently when the stomata get all their CO2 early in the day (from all the extra stomata in the tall grass) they close up the stomata early and thus retain the moisture they would have "exhaled" by leaving the stomata open longer. Good theory anyway.

What we don't know is the affects of prolonged exposure to organics is. We do not know how they move through the soil. We do not know how they break down in the environment or if there is a prolonged residue. OK, I know that this part of my explanation is short. That is because WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. Science has not told us these things. Because they are Organic and to be presumed safe?
No offense meant but I gotta laugh at some of this. I've been repeatedly exposed to organic food like corn meal for 50 years now. Science has studied it extensively and found all the protein sources I listed in my first post to be safe for humans and other mammals to eat day after day for decades at a time. They have also studied the decay of organic materials. There would be no reason for you to have read about it, though, so I'm not faulting anyone for not knowing. Organic stuff decays in the soil. After a time it disappears completely. Otherwise we'd up up to our asses in dinosaur sheeit and bones and stuff. Y'all might be interested to know that if you put a dead cow into a hot (150 degree F) compost pile, the cow will completely disappear in 4 days. No bones, hair, skin, horns, hooves, NOTHING after 4 days. So what happens is the bacteria and fungi in the soil digest the animal protein and turn it into microbe poop. Other microbes come along and eat the microbe poop as well as the dead microbes that ate the first stuff. And there's at least 25,000 species doing this. So the residue is microbe poop which seems to be safe or we wouldn't be here.

But is is absolutely correct to be skeptical of the word "organic." Not all organic materials are safe. Some extreme examples are rattlesnake venom, hemlock and other alkaloids, micotoxins, and even alcohol is an organic poison (which must be diluted with water before consumption!!).

I'm not going to do any more tit-for-tat on this subject. But I thought there was enough interest in learning a little more than what had been posted already. I will give y'all a few websites for those who are interested in further reading. I'll also warn you that if you "go organic," you will have to UNLEARN some things you know to be the truth through your experience and training. I know because I used chemical ferts and chem-icides for 40 years before changing.

This site gives the NPK of various organic materials. I'm not sure you can directly compare the N of organic material to the N of Miracle Gro. Feathers have a ton of N but it takes for-freakin'-ever to decay.

This one is a free copy of the Soil Biology Primer put out by the USDA. Excellent reading with links to pictures. It's the entire book.

This next one is an entire book first published in 1943 and now on the Internet. Some of these older scientists who were discredited are now being found to have hit the nail on the head. You might have to go through a FREE registration process to see the book. You have to promise not to reproduce it and sell it.

This is from the University of Western Australia. Easy reading and covers a lot of ground.

This is from our Bureau of Land Management. Did you know that well managed rangeland has more tonnage of living organisms underground than on top?

I've got about 50 more sites but I have to stop somewhere. I know some of y'all are thinking, "should have stopped about 10 paragraphs ago."
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