Register free!
Search
 
     

Click for Weather
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:17 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Wisconsin
Posts: 9,903
Soil Perculation

Most of us understand the problem of clay soils not perculating well, if at all... Typically the rain/irr. soaks in as far as it can, then sits there... later it dries out to be a hard block of cracked misery...

It seems to me, for the most part, that the moisture in the clay is lost through evaportaion/transpiration and that very little is lost through gravitation...

If this is a likely scenario(in general), then it may be that the rootzone is in a constant anaerobic condition...

I would like some intelligent discussion about this subject... Not a long list of brochures... Not any commentary about how clueless/ignorant I am... I would like the good people in this forum to standup and say what they believe/think/imagine about any subject at hand w/out intimidation from the bullies on this forum...
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:50 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 7,971
I believe the term is infiltration.

I am not sure it is the excess water standing that causes the clay to crust over. In fact you need some flushing to keep the mineral salts from building up on the surface of clay. That would more than likely lead to moss and other issues.

Typically the concern with Anaerobic in the "root zone" has more to do with saturation.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-28-2012, 07:59 PM
Think Green's Avatar
Think Green Think Green is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Arkansas--Mississippi flood plains
Posts: 2,710
Axe,
I understand that this condition does lead to decline in grasses. I understand that this also leads to surface rooting and therefore leads to decline from drought stress, disease, and lack of nutrient absorption. Like drinking chocolate milk with the chocolate not stirred.
I feel that these types of soils......many in my area from excessive wear of large equipment on poor soil. The clay pot syndrome on the surface only causes excessive run-off from irrigation, moss, and overall nutrient loss. After the sun bakes the top layers, it becomes lifeless and void of micro life. Worms don't and cannot live in these compact soils. I speak because I see these soils after doing a soil sample. When you can't stick a screw driver in to a depth of 4 inches because of compaction, how can a turfgrass grow and thrive. Beneficial soil microbes and worms cannot live in this. So, in all respects neither can a turfgrass.
In terms of cool turfgrass where deep roots is essential, the warmer season grasses have problems with shallow rooting and poor nutrient intake. This leads LCO's like me to spoon feed grasses with chemical fertilizers that will only speed up the process of compaction. I have pushed the technique of coring and topdressing with either peat moss and or sand to reduce the compaction.............but to no action of customer base interest, I have ceased the operation and the hassle of pushing sales. When the customer doesn't want to spend the essential money for the long haul, then it isn't my concern from there. You can't get blood from a turnip!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:48 PM
Duekster Duekster is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 7,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Axe,
I understand that this condition does lead to decline in grasses. I understand that this also leads to surface rooting and therefore leads to decline from drought stress, disease, and lack of nutrient absorption. Like drinking chocolate milk with the chocolate not stirred.
I feel that these types of soils......many in my area from excessive wear of large equipment on poor soil. The clay pot syndrome on the surface only causes excessive run-off from irrigation, moss, and overall nutrient loss. After the sun bakes the top layers, it becomes lifeless and void of micro life. Worms don't and cannot live in these compact soils. I speak because I see these soils after doing a soil sample. When you can't stick a screw driver in to a depth of 4 inches because of compaction, how can a turfgrass grow and thrive. Beneficial soil microbes and worms cannot live in this. So, in all respects neither can a turfgrass.
In terms of cool turfgrass where deep roots is essential, the warmer season grasses have problems with shallow rooting and poor nutrient intake. This leads LCO's like me to spoon feed grasses with chemical fertilizers that will only speed up the process of compaction. I have pushed the technique of coring and topdressing with either peat moss and or sand to reduce the compaction.............but to no action of customer base interest, I have ceased the operation and the hassle of pushing sales. When the customer doesn't want to spend the essential money for the long haul, then it isn't my concern from there. You can't get blood from a turnip!!!!
Does the condition exist as a result as he descibed?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:21 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Wisconsin
Posts: 9,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Axe,
I understand that this condition does lead to decline in grasses. I understand that this also leads to surface rooting and therefore leads to decline from drought stress, disease, and lack of nutrient absorption. Like drinking chocolate milk with the chocolate not stirred.
I feel that these types of soils......many in my area from excessive wear of large equipment on poor soil. The clay pot syndrome on the surface only causes excessive run-off from irrigation, moss, and overall nutrient loss. After the sun bakes the top layers, it becomes lifeless and void of micro life. Worms don't and cannot live in these compact soils. I speak because I see these soils after doing a soil sample. When you can't stick a screw driver in to a depth of 4 inches because of compaction, how can a turfgrass grow and thrive. Beneficial soil microbes and worms cannot live in this. So, in all respects neither can a turfgrass.
In terms of cool turfgrass where deep roots is essential, the warmer season grasses have problems with shallow rooting and poor nutrient intake. This leads LCO's like me to spoon feed grasses with chemical fertilizers that will only speed up the process of compaction. I have pushed the technique of coring and topdressing with either peat moss and or sand to reduce the compaction.............but to no action of customer base interest, I have ceased the operation and the hassle of pushing sales. When the customer doesn't want to spend the essential money for the long haul, then it isn't my concern from there. You can't get blood from a turnip!!!!
I've seen the same thing happen, and I attribute a lot of the results to excessive watering... but I can't say that for sure... nevertheless, not much in the way of worms, in many of these soils,... even the gardens are devoid of worm activity due to lack of OM and excessive watering... In fact this discussion just gave me an idea about one of the gardens that I work...
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:03 PM
Think Green's Avatar
Think Green Think Green is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Arkansas--Mississippi flood plains
Posts: 2,710
Soil conditions are a result of environmental factors and lack thereof of organic matter.
Crusting soils is another subject all of its own and is the soils one defense of drying out and protecting the sub surface from natural forces and erosion. I am not a Master of this science.....just a LCO trying to gain more knowledge.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:09 PM
Duekster Duekster is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 7,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Soil conditions are a result of environmental factors and lack thereof of organic matter.
Crusting soils is another subject all of its own and is the soils one defense of drying out and protecting the sub surface from natural forces and erosion. I am not a Master of this science.....just a LCO trying to gain more knowledge.
First post

Quote:
Typically the rain/irr. soaks in as far as it can, then sits there... later it dries out to be a hard block of cracked misery...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-28-2012, 09:18 PM
Weekend cut easymoney Weekend cut easymoney is online now
LawnSite Gold Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Texas-The Hilly part
Posts: 3,569
good topic--been pondering some of the same things--mostly for grass-

wondering at what point does the water percolate down below the root zone and how could one prevent this from happening--meaning, if you water, part of the water is used and some of it disappears too deep for the grass roots so could i potentially change that dynamic? (water less)-

most experts promote deep root watering, and I have been a strong advocate of that--however, through trial and error recently, I have been able to keep my grass (at my home) more healthy through light daily waterings--reducing my volume slightly over one per week watering-

New products such as Field Magic seem to be helping when mixed with the soil prior to planting, but not necessarily to top dressing-
any feedback would be apreciated-
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:12 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Wisconsin
Posts: 9,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weekend cut easymoney View Post
good topic--been pondering some of the same things--mostly for grass-

wondering at what point does the water percolate down below the root zone and how could one prevent this from happening--meaning, if you water, part of the water is used and some of it disappears too deep for the grass roots so could i potentially change that dynamic? (water less)-

most experts promote deep root watering, and I have been a strong advocate of that--however, through trial and error recently, I have been able to keep my grass (at my home) more healthy through light daily waterings--reducing my volume slightly over one per week watering-

New products such as Field Magic seem to be helping when mixed with the soil prior to planting, but not necessarily to top dressing-
any feedback would be apreciated-
I believe that water draining through the soil on its way to the water table is a good thing... the roots act as a filter, cleaning the water as it goes, but the action of downward motion draws air into the pores that the water just drained from... anyways, that's how I see it...

Have you used Field Magic? is it worth the trouble/money??
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-29-2012, 08:34 PM
Weekend cut easymoney Weekend cut easymoney is online now
LawnSite Gold Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Texas-The Hilly part
Posts: 3,569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I believe that water draining through the soil on its way to the water table is a good thing... the roots act as a filter, cleaning the water as it goes, but the action of downward motion draws air into the pores that the water just drained from... anyways, that's how I see it...

Have you used Field Magic? is it worth the trouble/money??
We are using it on several sites--

on 3 installs we have had mixed results--the first two on palisades Zoysia planted on top of field Magic mixed with king ranch cotton burr mix soil--planted in late Feb...it was very cool and we think we lost some of the grass due to fungus...though, I will say the yard that had an irrigation system did fine, the other might have neglected to water the first 3-5 days--later as it got warmer and I harped on watering --they stepped it up and it filled in perfect--

Top dressed my own yard and aerated and see some benefit--watering once per week, my St. Augustine did fine until last week and it dried out (possibly the product held onto the water or denied it from the plant?)
My neighbor did the same thing and his looks perfect--the only difference is that he has high filtered sunlight most of the day-

I also installed Zoysia (a pallet of palisades, one of Zorro and 1/2 of Emerald) with it mixed with the soil beneath the sod--hand watered once per day over the last month and it mostly all doing fine (bought it cheap after sitting at King Ranch for 3-5 days--all was yellow)-I'll post a photo or two-

Spread field Magic after seeding bare dirt on a median in heavy shade--trying to stabilize the soil and see if I could get it going--after 3 weeks the fescue is sprouting with once per week watering-
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2012, LawnSite.comô - Moose River Media
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:33 AM.

Page generated in 0.14731 seconds with 7 queries