The Green Industry's Resource Center

banjoman · #1 09-19-2012, 07:21 PM

I got to rant a little bit. I stopped by my local Stihl dealer yesterday for some parts, i looked on the back wall where all the trimmers are and i wanted to cry. Almost everyone of them had the 4-mix motors, the only ones that didn't were the 45,55,70,and 250. Don't get me wrong i like my FS-90's, they are powerful machines but they aren't like the old 2 stroke Stihls. One thing that i don't like is the 4-Mix motors have no low end torque. You pretty much have to hold it wide open to cut, and when i trim i like to use half throttle which you cannot do with the 4-mix trimmers. Taking them in for valve adjustments all the time is a headache too. Stihl use to have the best trimmers in the business like the FS-80,FS-85,FS-120, and FS-200. The FS-120 was one of the best trimmers made, it was around the same price as a FS-90 and it was 30cc's of raw 2-Stroke power. Now, you have to spend $530 to get a good 2-Cycle trimmer which is the FS-250. Me and the salesman had a good discussion about this and i wanted to hear from some of you. Why cant Stihl make 2-Cycle equipment. If Echo,Redmax,Shindaiwa,Husqvarna,Tanaka,Maryuama, and others can still make 2-Cycle trimmers, why cant Stihl. Why cant one of the largest makers of Outdoor power equipment with technology out the wazoo and the best engineers produce 2-Stroke equipment that meets EPA standards?

lawnboy dan · #2 09-19-2012, 07:41 PM

none of the other makers except husky run like they used too. blame the epa. for some reason the huskys still run strong and smooth despite the epa regs. i am nursing all my old models foe as long as possible as i am done with the 4 mix. the shin c4 is no better. hasnt sthil come out with some new 2 stroke models?

Ridin' Green · #3 09-19-2012, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawnboy dan

none of the other makers except husky run like they used too. blame the epa. for some reason the huskys still run strong and smooth despite the epa regs. i am nursing all my old models foe as long as possible as i am done with the 4 mix. the shin c4 is no better. hasnt sthil come out with some new 2 stroke models?

Yes they have. Their two or three newest BP's are 2 strokes (200, 350, and 430). They are actually Redmax strato-charged engines in them that Stihl bought just before deciding to go ahead (and come out with) with their huge investment in R&D with the 4 mix. I found all of this info by doing some searching on the net one night last winter when there was nothing else to do. Stihl purchased 100K small 2 stroke strato-charged engines from Redmax to use, but since they had so much invested already in the 4 mix development, they shelved those engines and went full bore at the 4 mix believeing that the epa would eventually force all small engine manu's to follow suit. Then, much to Stihl's chagrin, the Redmax strato engines not only met, but far exceeded the epa's reg's at that time, and would do so for quite some time to come.

As fas as torque with the 4 mix's goes, I'm with those who say it has a LOT at low end. I hate the fact that their trimmers are either on or off, with no easy, smooth middle ground. Kinda bugs me because their BR600's trigger up and down smooth as silk from off throttle to full throttle.

Richard Martin · #4 09-20-2012, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridin' Green

Stihl purchased 100K small 2 stroke strato-charged engines from Redmax to use, but since they had so much invested already in the 4 mix development, they shelved those engines and went full bore at the 4 mix believeing that the epa would eventually force all small engine manu's to follow suit. Then, much to Stihl's chagrin, the Redmax strato engines not only met, but far exceeded the epa's reg's at that time, and would do so for quite some time to come.

There's a little more to this story and it is a critical part of this story.

The EPA was considering and had drawn up draft regulations for much tougher exhaust emissions for hand held 2 stroke equipment. This was being considered for a significant number of years. These new regs were going to force literally all 2 strokes out of the business. That is why Shindaiwa, Stihl and a few others spent significant amounts of money developing their 4 stroke engines.

Then in 2008 the EPA suddenly changed their minds. The story says that the engine manufacturers said that they couldn't make their current engines any cleaner than they already were and the EPA relented and decided to keep the Tier II (the old standard) emissions levels in place.

In their explanation page of the new standards the EPA says:

"We are not adopting new exhaust emission standards for handheld emissions."

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad.../420f08013.htm

Stihl and Shindaiwa got screwed, plain and simple.

Ridin' Green · #5 09-20-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Martin

There's a little more to this story and it is a critical part of this story.

The EPA was considering and had drawn up draft regulations for much tougher exhaust emissions for hand held 2 stroke equipment. This was being considered for a significant number of years. These new regs were going to force literally all 2 strokes out of the business. That is why Shindaiwa, Stihl and a few others spent significant amounts of money developing their 4 stroke engines.

Then in 2008 the EPA suddenly changed their minds. The story says that the engine manufacturers said that they couldn't make their current engines any cleaner than they already were and the EPA relented and decided to keep the Tier II (the old standard) emissions levels in place.

In their explanation page of the new standards the EPA says:

"We are not adopting new exhaust emission standards for handheld emissions."

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad.../420f08013.htm

Stihl and Shindaiwa got screwed, plain and simple.

I had the link to the article that I was talking about in our computer, but we recently switched computers and apparently not everything got transfered over to this one, so I can't post it right now. I have posted it here in the past though, and it doesn't quite match what you just posted. Yes, there was more to the entire article- by a long shot, but what I posted was the gist of it.

For one thing, the 4 mix engines were developed long before the regs in your link to the epa were developed and to go into affect (2011 & 2012).

Stihl didn't just get screwed plain and simple. They had already invested quite a bit of time and money in R&D, believed that it was only going to keep getting worse and worse, so they went for it and it bit them in the butt in the end. It (the article) also explains why they shelved 100K new RM engines instead of going ahead and using them while they still coud before the new regs they thought were coming down the road went into place. They certainly had time enough (in terms of actual years between when they bought the engines up until 2011) to sell them all.

Richard Martin · #6 09-20-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridin' Green

Stihl didn't just get screwed plain and simple. They had already invested quite a bit of time and money in R&D, believed that it was only going to keep getting worse and worse, so they went for it and it bit them in the butt in the end.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. If not for the EPA telling the manufacturers that they were going to tighten up the exhaust regs on handheld equipment, Stihl and Shindaiwa would never have "wasted" all of that money on R&D for 4 strokes. Shindaiwa was the company that really took it on the chin. They're now a part of Echo who is part of Kioritz.

Turf Dawg · #7 09-19-2012, 07:45 PM

Well in my personal opinion, the others may build 2 stroke stuff but none of them or worth a sheet anymore.

easy-lift guy · #8 09-19-2012, 07:45 PM

Becuse they created a 4 cycle to meet EPA requirments. No point looking back.
Echo bought out shindawia since they decided to not try and reinvent the 2 cycle
engine.. As much a business decision as it was to absorb that portion of the market share.
easy-lift guy

Richard Martin · #9 09-19-2012, 07:58 PM

One of my local Stihl dealers has a little hidden secret that one of the owners told me about. This particular dealer sells a lot of Stihl equipment, including to the city. The city buys everything but Stihl trimmers. They also complain about the weight. Unbeknownst to virtually everybody that walks through the door, this dealer also has a stock of Kawasaki KTF-27A trimmers. The city buys these instead of the Stihl trimmers. I have a Kawasaki KTF-27B1 trimmer and it is truly a great trimmer.