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Old 02-06-2014, 05:52 PM
ecoguy ecoguy is offline
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Fiesta Kills Fish?

Hey all. I have a customer who is convinced one of our Fiesta applications killed the fish in his small garden pond last year. We spot sprayed some buttercup 6-10 ft away on a non windy day and apparently the fish died immediately after. Nothing was said by the customer until now, several months later. At the same time, the water in his pond somehow turned clear. We advertise all our products as Children and Pet Friendly so this is very upsetting to hear especially since Fiesta claims their products are safe for pets and people.

I would like to know if there is any research proving this could occur? I would appreciate any helpful feedback.

Thanks!
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:59 PM
ReddensLawnCare ReddensLawnCare is offline
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I think your customer is full of crap
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:08 PM
rlitman rlitman is online now
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Originally Posted by ReddensLawnCare View Post
I think your customer is full of crap
I'm going to have to agree with you here. But I'll go on with some reasoning behind this.

Here is the Fiesta MSDS:
http://www.fiestaweedkiller.com/_med...loads/msds.pdf
(you did have this handy, since you applied it, right?)

Sodium nitrate is slightly toxic to fish, but only in quite high concentrations.
You'd have to pour Fiesta by the gallon into a pretty small pond to raise the nitrate concentration to dangerous levels.

NTA is toxic. The Sigma Aldrich MSDS for NTA
shows an LC-50 as low as 100mg/l over 96h exposure (so it looks like this was indeed tested against fish in other contexts, but other LC-50 numbers are as much as 4x higher; I'm just using the lowest one to prove the point beyond question).
Assuming a pond size of 50 gallons (ludicrously small), you'd need 19g of NTA (directly applied to the pond water) to get to this dose.
Back to the Fiesta MSDS, they say NTA is 0.5% to 0.8% of the herbicide, so you would need a little over a cup of Fiesta poured directly into a 50 gallon pond to reach this level. And runoff is NOT the same thing. NTA rapidly breaks down into much less toxic products and also binds to things in the environment, so I'm not sure how many gallons of Fiesta you'd have to pour around the perimeter of the pond for runoff to cause harm, but it would certainly be a lot, and overspray being an issue is just ridiculous.

The iron salts themselves range from nontoxic to slighly toxic to fish.
Here's one reference to that.
But ponds frequently get fertilizer runoff (it's still bad for them, but that's another story), without the iron salts used in many fertilizers killing fish. In fact, I've seen chelated iron salts sold as an aquarium and pond supplement to help green up your underwater plants.

Landrus2 said to "Find out if there were any aerial spray for the West Nile virus at around the same time you sprayed."
and he's absolutely right. Pyrethroids used for this can be VERY toxic to fish, at seriously low concentrations.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:16 PM
ecoguy ecoguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlitman View Post
I'm going to have to agree with you here. But I'll go on with some reasoning behind this.

Here is the Fiesta MSDS:
http://www.fiestaweedkiller.com/_med...loads/msds.pdf
(you did have this handy, since you applied it, right?)

Sodium nitrate is slightly toxic to fish, but only in quite high concentrations.
You'd have to pour Fiesta by the gallon into a pretty small pond to raise the nitrate concentration to dangerous levels.

NTA is toxic. The Sigma Aldrich MSDS for NTA
shows an LC-50 as low as 100mg/l over 96h exposure (so it looks like this was indeed tested against fish in other contexts, but other LC-50 numbers are as much as 4x higher; I'm just using the lowest one to prove the point beyond question).
Assuming a pond size of 50 gallons (ludicrously small), you'd need 19g of NTA (directly applied to the pond water) to get to this dose.
Back to the Fiesta MSDS, they say NTA is 0.5% to 0.8% of the herbicide, so you would need a little over a cup of Fiesta poured directly into a 50 gallon pond to reach this level. And runoff is NOT the same thing. NTA rapidly breaks down into much less toxic products and also binds to things in the environment, so I'm not sure how many gallons of Fiesta you'd have to pour around the perimeter of the pond for runoff to cause harm, but it would certainly be a lot, and overspray being an issue is just ridiculous.

The iron salts themselves range from nontoxic to slighly toxic to fish.
Here's one reference to that.
But ponds frequently get fertilizer runoff (it's still bad for them, but that's another story), without the iron salts used in many fertilizers killing fish. In fact, I've seen chelated iron salts sold as an aquarium and pond supplement to help green up your underwater plants.

Landrus2 said to "Find out if there were any aerial spray for the West Nile virus at around the same time you sprayed."
and he's absolutely right. Pyrethroids used for this can be VERY toxic to fish, at seriously low concentrations.
Thanks very much for this! Yes, I did have the sheet and also knew this info (although not as well as I do now) which is why I was so confused by the customer's claim. Our spray was minimal. Will be interested to hear what the manufacturer's say. Thanks again for this Rlitman. Great work.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:02 PM
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Landrus2 Landrus2 is offline
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Find out if there were any aerial spray for the West Nile virus at around the same time you sprayed.
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:53 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Originally Posted by ecoguy View Post
Hey all. I have a customer who is convinced one of our Fiesta applications killed the fish in his small garden pond last year. We spot sprayed some buttercup 6-10 ft away on a non windy day and apparently the fish died immediately after. Nothing was said by the customer until now, several months later. At the same time, the water in his pond somehow turned clear. We advertise all our products as Children and Pet Friendly so this is very upsetting to hear especially since Fiesta claims their products are safe for pets and people.

I would like to know if there is any research proving this could occur? I would appreciate any helpful feedback.

Thanks!
You're positioning Fiesta as children and pet friendly?

The active ingredient in Fiesta is a chelated Iron. Do you know that Iron poisoning is the third leading cause of death in elementary school age children, behind car accidents and lead poisoning?!
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:38 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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That's quite a spin.
Iron overdose has been one of the leading causes of death caused by toxicological agents in children younger than 6 years. Iron is used as a pediatric or prenatal vitamin supplement and for treatment of anemia. Iron is particularly tempting to young children because it appears similar to candy.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/815213-overview

It would be extremely difficult for a child to orally ingest enough iron from spot treatments of Fiesta.

Regarding the possible fish kill, I have made an inquiry with the manufacturer of Fiesta and will share the response here. Personally, I have not heard of any complaints of this nature, but all things are possible.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:57 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
That's quite a spin.
Iron overdose has been one of the leading causes of death caused by toxicological agents in children younger than 6 years. Iron is used as a pediatric or prenatal vitamin supplement and for treatment of anemia. Iron is particularly tempting to young children because it appears similar to candy.
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/815213-overview

It would be extremely difficult for a child to orally ingest enough iron from spot treatments of Fiesta.

Regarding the possible fish kill, I have made an inquiry with the manufacturer of Fiesta and will share the response here. Personally, I have not heard of any complaints of this nature, but all things are possible.
It's no larger spin than saying that any of the conventional synthetics are dangerous or otherwise not kid and pet friendly.

If you're going to apply that standard to Fiesta, you need to apply it to 2,4-D as well.
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:25 AM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Skipster, I'll agree that there are risks involved with any actions.
I'll have the research on Fiesta regarding possible fish kill to share sometime this weekend.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:41 PM
ecoguy ecoguy is offline
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Great, thanks Barry. I've emailed them too.
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