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  #101  
Old 11-01-2007, 04:12 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Location: District 9 CA
Posts: 18,205
Yes, you are correct, CGM is essentially insoluble, but not completely. What I was referring to was the compounds specifically isolated and related to the herbicidal properties as detailed in the

Updated patent:

During studies designed to isolate and identify one or more active
components of corm gluten we unexpectedly found that hydrolyzed
protein from corn gluten provided an effective water-soluble preemergence
herbicide that is much more active than the corn gluten meal itself.



and the study conducted on corn gluten hydrolysate:


Isolation and Identification of Root-Inhibiting Compounds from Corn. Gluten Hydrolysate


And in this research summary:


If the material is applied too early, weed control is less effective. This is
likely due to microbial degradation of the active component of the CGM.



And also noted in this article:


Making its way to the marketplace: A natural product for the control of annual weeds

Continuing field work has shown that rates of corn gluten meal in the range of 20 Ibs./1,000 sq. ft. will reduce crabgrass infestation in Kentucky bluegrass turf by 50 to 60 percent in the first year. As rates are increased, almost total control can be achieved. However, timing is important because microbial activity is known to destroy the activity of the active component. Therefore, it is recommended that the application be made close to the time of weed germination. Moisture is necessary to activate the material, but extended wet periods can reduce its effectiveness, as is the case with synthetic
preemergence herbicides.
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  #102  
Old 11-02-2007, 03:07 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Midlothian, IL zone 5
Posts: 504
I asked Dr. Ingham's to give her analysis of the links in your posts. Here is her response:

"Basically, the folks at Iowa State aren't doing the microbiology assessment correctly. They use plate counts to try to give information about what is going on with the organisms decomposing the corn gluten, and thus they are missing about 99.999% of the organisms actually doing the work with the CGM.

It is the growth of the beneficial fungi that really explains the impact of CGM. Just because the organisms aren't assessed properly does not mean they are not present and doing their work.

If you sterilize the CGM, and the soil lacks organisms, the CGM has no effect on weeds."


Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Roxburgh, New Zealand
SFI Culiacan, Mexico
SFI Canada West, Vulcan
SFI South Africa, Polokwane
SFI England, Laverstoke Park
SFI Canada East, Halifax
http://www.soilfoodweb.com
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  #103  
Old 11-03-2007, 01:00 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Location: District 9 CA
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Gerry, I think your missing the point. It is the compound in CGM/CGH that was found to have the inhibiting effect on seed germination, hence the reason why they are trying to isolate it so it can be supplied in an economical fashion. You clearly stated it is NOT a compound, it is the biology.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php...6&postcount=86

The reason corn gluten works is because it feeds the organisms that suppress the weed seeds from growing.

This statement is inconsistent with more than one study regarding this inhibitory effect.

Isolation and Identification of Root-Inhibiting Compounds from Corn. Gluten Hydrolysate

The five dipeptides isolated from the aqueous filtrate of the gluten hydrolysate root formation of germinating perennial ryegrass, demonstrating their potential for use as naturally occurring, growth-regulating compounds and as natural pre-emergence herbicides.


This is not an question of the effect of fungus on weed suppression, but a question of the compounds contained within CGM/CGH that were isolated and found to have a inhibiting effect, even under controlled laboratory conditions (see materials & methods in the above linked study).

If Dr. Ingham has data that contradicts these findings, I'm sure everyone in this field of science would be interested in seeing them, so please post. Perhaps she has discovered something new that can be patented, like fungal inoculation of CGM.

I'm curious if you asked her permission to post that email on a public forum? I'm also curious if you mentioned your remarks concerning her position on compost tea as a fertilizer? Care to post your emailed question to her?

Tread lightly Gerry, because you are going down a very dangerous path.
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  #104  
Old 11-03-2007, 10:33 AM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

John Adams
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  #105  
Old 11-03-2007, 11:19 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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scientific fact: An observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (although its truth is never final)
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