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  #71  
Old 03-11-2009, 08:04 PM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteTymeIlluminations View Post
why would I hire a photographer?
Mike, I just don't like the way you talk to people on here and I think you constantly sound condescending. He sent a photo back and it wasn't good enough for you. Don't use LEDs! If you don't have an interest in using LEDs stay out of the LED thread and go to another thread. You don't have to constantly ruin a perfectly good thread by dominating it. I sorta liked last year when you weren't on this site; the year before you dominated every thread and ruins a perfectly good forum.
Did I ever say the Caribbean was dominating the landscape lighting world or that the bahamas was better? No, but there is a lot of work to be done down there obviously by looking at your photos...take a chillaxative. You don't have to beat a thread until you finally felt like you 'won' because nobody will respond anymore.
Are you like this, or come across, like this in person?
Mr. carribbean with 333 posts on here you are hardly entitled to say who should post on here and who shouldn't. You started with me and I let it go and ignored it for the first couple of times until I had enough. Sherman also started and challenged me and goaded me into a debate. I quickly dispensed of him too when he couldn't answer my challenge to post an equivalent photo.

Why don't you read the posts first before trying to paint me the bad guy. All I did was state my personal opinion about LED's and why I'm not using them right now and a couple of wise guys think they are going to teach me a lesson and take me to task. Others like you seem to want to challenge me and then when you are soundly beaten you cry and complain and call me a bully or run and hide and hope the thread goes away.

I don't know it all , but I know alot and I've been around a long time and deserve more respect from someone like you who is trying to build yourself up by taking cheap shots at me.

You want to get some respect then let's see some of your work. That's a lame excuse that you are not a photographer and everyone knows it. All I see is a lot of talk and nothing to back it up from you. I received an unsolicited personal message from someone here who apparently knows you and they pretty much confirmed what I suspected about you. You got your 15 minutes of fame now go away.
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  #72  
Old 03-12-2009, 08:27 AM
NiteTymeIlluminations's Avatar
NiteTymeIlluminations NiteTymeIlluminations is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 367
k bye bye.
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  #73  
Old 03-12-2009, 03:28 PM
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Tomwilllight Tomwilllight is offline
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 293
Retrofit LED Heat Issues: Revised & Condensed

Quote:
Originally Posted by INTEGRA Works Lighting View Post
Wow, that was a great point / counterpoint Tom!
When are we going to get together for those beers you mentioned previously? We have a LOT to discuss!
As several have noted before, I have a tendency to fall in love with my logic stream and spend much time and words shoring my thoughts when a couple of simple declarative sentences will do the job. Call it an occupational hazard; the result of 25 years of delivering lectures to 18 year old kids who wondered why they wanted to take Intro to Theatre Arts.

Let me try to be brief and state my concerns clearly:

LED's produce some heat. Enough heat that, if it's not properly managed, the LEDs will fail prematurely.

True, advances have been made in the life and quality of LED's as a light source. But I don't believe any major lamp manufacturers are more than peripherally focused on Landscape Lighting.

Heat is a problem for all LEDs. This problem is not easily managed in a compact, sealed fixture that is originally designed for a MR16.

The MR16 retrofit LEDs all have heat sinks - that is, all I have seen. Heat sinks need moving air to dissipate heat. Moving air requires volume and the volume inside most Landscape Lighting fixtures very limited. The fixtures are designed to withstand high heat... not to dissipate it efficiently. Tree-mounted in a sunny spot late in the day and a hot, still night... or mounted on a west-facing masonry wall, I think the retrofitted LEDs will be subjected to relatively high heat levels. Higher levels than their designers envisioned.

I believe the retrofits will offer good service in climates that have significant cooling in the evenings and for clients who have engaged an installer of your caliber. That means, they have a well-designed control system will turn the lights off during the much warmer daytime.

Early adopters, such as yourself, by default, should put the new units to the test in the field. It's absolutely necessary for the engineers' designs to be tested in the field, accurate information gathered and reported to the engineers and the manufactures who are bankrolling the research. This field testing must be done in a WIDE variety of environments. Indoor and outdoor. In open and sealed fixtures. They should must be operated around the clock and output measured regularly.

I believe that LED's will come to dominate the landscape lighting market sometime in the not too distant future. I also believe that market will be smaller than it is now. How much smaller... make a guess.

Much depends on the public's eventual acceptance of LED's. Right now, we are in the midst of a lot of consumer confusion - very similar to the awkward way CFL's were introduced about 15-20? years ago. Then, many claims about CFL's life and color were grossly overstated, wrong or outright lies. That market has finally matured and CFLs are taking hold. I hope the LED market will mature quickly and with much less catastrophe.

Expect an order soon.

Thank You,

Tom
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  #74  
Old 03-12-2009, 04:10 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Muskoka, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomwilllight View Post
LED's produce some heat. Enough heat that, if it's not properly managed, the LEDs will fail prematurely. True, and that heat can be properly managed. It is possible and it is currently being done. Kumho and CRS are doing it just fine, Ushio and Lamina not so much. It all comes down to using different mounting techniques, different driver technology and different heat sink methods.

True, advances have been made in the life and quality of LED's as a light source. But I don't believe any major lamp manufacturers are more than peripherally focused on Landscape Lighting. Landscape Lighting has always been a 'little brother' in the Lighting Industry, that is why almost all of our technologies (sockets, stems, lamps, etc) have been borrowed for so long. So be it... there are excellent LED lamps available now and more coming online all the time. Adopt the excellent product that will fit and work in existing excellent fixtures and politely excuse the rest. What is new with that?

Heat is a problem for all LEDs. This problem is not easily managed in a compact, sealed fixture that is originally designed for a MR16. Hmmm, how about: "Heat can be a problem for LEDs, it is not easily managed in a compact lamp format, but it is possible with some good design and engineering."

The MR16 retrofit LEDs all have heat sinks - that is, all I have seen. Heat sinks need moving air to dissipate heat. To some degree yes, there is also the opportunity for conduction though. Moving air requires volume and the volume inside most Landscape Lighting fixtures very limited. To some degree yes, there are larger body (internal volume) fixtures though (CopperMoon CM125, CAST CCTL1C, Nightscaping Vermeer, etc) and you are not giving any credit to the fact that there are a couple of LED lamps that do operate just fine in small fixtures like the Lumiere 203. They DO exist! The fixtures are designed to withstand high heat... not to dissipate it efficiently. Tree-mounted in a sunny spot late in the day and a hot, still night... or mounted on a west-facing masonry wall, I think the retrofitted LEDs will be subjected to relatively high heat levels. Higher levels than their designers envisioned.

I believe the retrofits will offer good service in climates that have significant cooling in the evenings and for clients who have engaged an installer of your caliber. That means, they have a well-designed control system will turn the lights off during the much warmer daytime. So, can we finally agree that my climate here in Ontario, from a temperature point of view is virtually the same as that of say 75% of the USA? I don't live in the Arctic you know! (No offense to Mike Murphy )

.... (just saving some space here )

I believe that LED's will come to dominate the landscape lighting market sometime in the not too distant future. I also believe that market will be smaller than it is now. How much smaller... make a guess. Hopefully not nearly as much shrinkage has taken place in the Landscape Lighting Market as has occured in the financial markets!

Much depends on the public's eventual acceptance of LED's. Right now, we are in the midst of a lot of consumer confusion - very similar to the awkward way CFL's were introduced about 15-20? years ago. Then, many claims about CFL's life and color were grossly overstated, wrong or outright lies. That market has finally matured and CFLs are taking hold. I hope the LED market will mature quickly and with much less catastrophe. I hope so too... which is why I devote so much time and attention to helping others understand the technology.

Expect an order soon. I will welcome it Tom. There are some new products coming on line soon. Really cool, innovative stuff. All tested and vetted and built to spec.

Thank You, No, thank you! I enjoy a good discourse now and then!

Tom
Have a great day.
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