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  #61  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:34 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric View Post
FYI here is a copy & paste about soil However lets not get into it until we finish Fertilizer. I place it here only to give a little back ground for Fertilizer.


Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape. We use the soil triangle as a basic tool to understand soil. Sandy soil consists of large particles with large void spaces and water runs right through it. Clay soil has tiny particles with tiny void spaces and water is trapped by it. Loam or silt has medium sized particles with medium void spaces that both hold and drain water.


Silt allows plant root to both drink and breath. It is important to remember. The spaces between soil particles, is where roots grow. These spaces should be 50% by volume. Therefore after free drainage soil should be 50% solid particles 25% air filled void space and 25% water filled void space. The more we know about soil the better able we are to grow plants. Soil is the environment in which plants live. We do not water or fertilize our plants. We water and fertilize the environment in which they live. We must understand the relationship between all of these factors of soil. Volumes have been written about soil. I only offer a very condensed version.

The top 6 to 8 inches of the soil (rhizoshere) is where most landscape plants, from the mighty oak tree to a blade of grass, get their nutrition. The movement of air and water through this environment is important. Proper Drainage is as important as irrigation. Saturated soil does not allow air to get into the soil. Air is important to the roots of a plant as well as the beneficial aerobic microorganisms in the soil. Fertilizer, irrigation, drainage and Aeration help us manage this environment we call soil. This environment is complex and changing every minute. Spend the extra money for good topsoil on the final fill and grade if you are building a new house in Charlotte County. You will save that money many times over in water and fertilizer. Soil is one of the most important factors in successful landscape.

How do we judge soil? By looks, what color it is. By smell, aerobic soil has a sweet smell. Anaerobic soil has a sour or foul smell. And by feel, sandy soil will not clump in our hand or form a ball. Clay soil will clump in our hand but not break apart. Silt will clump in our hand and break apart easily. That’s Qualitative; measurement differs individual to individual (Quantitative denotes scientific measurement). We give those measurements a name and can put numbers to them. For example pH., which measures how acidic or alkaline the soil, is. In Coastal Charlotte Co. our soil is alkaline so the last thing we want to do is add lime. Instead we manage the soil chemically with acid forming fertilizers. Physical properties of soil are measured in terms like texture, structure, particle size distribution, particle shape, density, infiltration, percolation, hydraulic conductivity, and water potential etc.


Bulk density is the way we measure compaction. Compaction is why farmers plow their fields and core aeration is how we manage compaction on turf soils. Compaction of the soil closes the void spaces. Water, air, fertilizer, and roots need these void spaces for our plants to grow healthy. Chemical properties are measured in terms like cation & anion exchange, salinity, pH, redox potential, and volatilization etc. You don’t have to understand or know all of these term and reactions to have a nice yard, but the Farmer, golf course greens keeper and the nursery grower knows this science. It is this science that allows a few to feed the many.

Copyright 2001 (c) Ric All rights reserved
Copyright 2001 Global Infromation Concepts Inc All Rights Reserved
Rik,

This is important info, you should talk more about the importance of soil.
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  #62  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:41 PM
greendoctor greendoctor is online now
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Everything starts with the soil. The program I use is to get around some very bad soil conditions and produce healthy turf and ornamentals. There is no topsoil I would want to use as fill/final grade material here. What is sold as "topsoil" here is not much better than the crap it is covering up. To do it right would mean installing a drainage system and a sand/organic matter mix.
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  #63  
Old 06-07-2009, 06:57 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
Rik,

This is important info, you should talk more about the importance of soil.
Answer

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Originally Posted by Ric View Post
TimTurf

Organic Forum is more Politically Correct. Who better to moderate it than a Homeowner. After all, All homeowners have a Lawn.
Slow Dog

You are slow, it is obvious you read the whole thread. But you did not understand what was written.
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  #64  
Old 06-08-2009, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ric View Post
Slow Dog

You are slow, it is obvious you read the whole thread. But you did not understand what was written.
Phasthound

After sleeping on this I feel a better explanation is in order. Look at the dates of these posts. At the same time several of us were asking for an Advanced Agronomy Forum with no luck. Lawnsite Elected to go Politically Correct with a Organic Forum. While this might of been the better business move, It sure was a slap in the face to a few of us when the Advanced Agronomy Forum was never acknowledged. Since no one on this forum at that time was pushing Organics, Lawnsite brought in a Homeowner who is a retired Government Civil Engineer and had never worked in the Green Industry as the moderator of that forum. To me this was even a Bigger slap in the face. A Homeowner telling a professional what to use just didn't wash with me. I have taught at a college part time but realize I don't know it all, No one does. BTW The Homeowner Moderator appears to be gone now and I am still here.

Further More the attitude of the Orgasmic crowd turned me off even more. I believe in the value of organics but live in the 21th century of modern technology. To expect me to give up everything I know works and switch to a all Tree Hugger program just wasn't going to happen. To paraphrase a quote by former Russia leader Nikita Khrushchev. We can't expect synthetic people to turn Organic over night. But we can encourage them to use more organics until one morning they wake to find they are Tree Huggers. Of course his quote was about Capitalism, Socialism and Communism.

As I rapidly approach by 69th Birthday I realize my mind is not as sharp as it once was. I no longer have any desire or the ability to lead a discussion of advanced agronomy or soil science. My ego wants to say I have forgotten more about this industry than most people know.
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"TG doesn't give a rats ass about being "Responsible" as long as sales/production quotas are met. That's it in a nutshell. A recipe for disaster IMO." Ted Putnam 2/28/14

You can lead a Donkey to water but you can't make the Jackass Drink

"As Americans you have the right to be stupid." John Kerry

"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne.
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  #65  
Old 12-01-2012, 11:45 AM
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Bump Bump Bump
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"TG doesn't give a rats ass about being "Responsible" as long as sales/production quotas are met. That's it in a nutshell. A recipe for disaster IMO." Ted Putnam 2/28/14

You can lead a Donkey to water but you can't make the Jackass Drink

"As Americans you have the right to be stupid." John Kerry

"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne.
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  #66  
Old 12-03-2012, 02:19 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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We look at the organic matter in soils for the soil food web, and always keep in mind what Justus von Liebig has taught us as well.
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  #67  
Old 12-04-2012, 09:44 AM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
Rik,

This is important info, you should talk more about the importance of soil.
I found a few things in Ric's post that would make a soil scientist cringe. Farmer's are primarily concerned with compaction only once - -the first time a field put in production. After that, tillage is all about weed control. The no-till movement has shwn us that we don't need to plow fields to plant crops.

But, to the larger point, soil isn't mentioned much in lawn care because it's not very easy to change. It's hard enough to get customers buy aeration services sometimes, nevermind convincing them to make drainage repairs, grade adjustments, or add soil amendments.

Maybe what you're getting at is that we should be a bit more fluent in how our treatments impact and are impacted by the soil already in place. That much I agree. However, I don't think an Advanced Agronomy Forum is needed -- there's too much misinformation here. Such a forum exists today -- the C5 Turfgrass Division of the Crop Science Society of America.
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  #68  
Old 12-04-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I found a few things in Ric's post that would make a soil scientist cringe. Farmer's are primarily concerned with compaction only once - -the first time a field put in production. After that, tillage is all about weed control. The no-till movement has shwn us that we don't need to plow fields to plant crops.

But, to the larger point, soil isn't mentioned much in lawn care because it's not very easy to change. It's hard enough to get customers buy aeration services sometimes, nevermind convincing them to make drainage repairs, grade adjustments, or add soil amendments.

Maybe what you're getting at is that we should be a bit more fluent in how our treatments impact and are impacted by the soil already in place. That much I agree. However, I don't think an Advanced Agronomy Forum is needed -- there's too much misinformation here. Such a forum exists today -- the C5 Turfgrass Division of the Crop Science Society of America.

Skipster

Rather than trying to be a PITA, Why don't you re-read the entire post paying attention to the dates these posts were written and how they answer the original question.

If you feel you can do a better job, be my guess with my blessings. But don't pull a Kiril and post a few links and tell people to figure it out for themselves. I wasn't the only one to put forth an effort to try and help Lawnsite members. So don't knock people who are trying, help them.

.
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"TG doesn't give a rats ass about being "Responsible" as long as sales/production quotas are met. That's it in a nutshell. A recipe for disaster IMO." Ted Putnam 2/28/14

You can lead a Donkey to water but you can't make the Jackass Drink

"As Americans you have the right to be stupid." John Kerry

"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.” John Wayne.
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  #69  
Old 12-04-2012, 01:27 PM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric View Post
Skipster

Rather than trying to be a PITA, Why don't you re-read the entire post paying attention to the dates these posts were written and how they answer the original question.

If you feel you can do a better job, be my guess with my blessings. But don't pull a Kiril and post a few links and tell people to figure it out for themselves. I wasn't the only one to put forth an effort to try and help Lawnsite members. So don't knock people who are trying, help them.

.
Sorry, not trying to be a PITA -- that part of your post just stood out to me. I wasn't even referring much to your post. This thread has become so long and gone in so many different directions that I don't even know what the original question was!

So, I'm not totally sure what you're looking for here. I said that the Advanced Agronomy forum was not needed because something that has all that information already exists. We certainly don't need to re-invent the wheel. Additionally, encouraging LS members to get involved in their local and state turfgrass associations, PLANET, and CSSA makes the industry more well rounded, more visible, and more educated.

I'm certainly not acting anything like Kiril here. I'm saying that LS members should get plugged in with academics and other turf professionals, utilizing materials that already exist.
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  #70  
Old 12-04-2012, 02:40 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ric View Post
But don't pull a Kiril and post a few links and tell people to figure it out for themselves.
With all due respect Ric, I'm not going to rewrite something that has been established and written time and time again. People can read the links I provided in the other thread and sort out where the inconsistencies are in your post by themselves. I would hope they don't need me to hold their hand. If they then have any questions after reading and understanding what has been presented in the linked papers, then ask. I have no problem fielding questions from people who have done their homework, however I have no tolerance for people who expect to be spoon fed.
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