Help me make transition to organic

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

The analysis of Bone Meal and Rock Phosphate came from the label on corresponding Espoma products. That's the analysis they give for the products they sale. I'd be interested to see a labeled bone meal product that has a P value greater than 25. I haven't seen anything labeled product available to consumers greater than 15 P.

First hit on google when searching for steamed bone meal. Analysis 1- 25 - 0

http://www.vitasoil.com/bone%20app.htm

[WannaBeOrganic]

Bone Meal (steamed): 2 - 28 - 0.2 (WBO reports 4 - 12 - 0)

I'd be interested to see a labeled bone meal product that has a P value greater than 25.

First hit on google when searching for steamed bone meal. Analysis 1- 25 - 0

Why don't you get a hobby or something and stop following me around. While you're at it, look up the definition of "greater than".

[ICT Bill]

Originally Posted by growingdeeprootsorganicly

have to agree with the wanna be on the bone meal analysis but i guess depending on the particular product,how it was made i could imagine P being in the 20% range but disagree with his oak leaf #s for p value, there no way it's that high,

the best way to increase P is like small axe said, get the bugs to unlock it, and use of a chelete like humic acid but it's easier said then done but, topdress with good post, dig some forest humus or soil healthy soil from a natural grass/weed field or inoculate with a commercial myco product at time of seeding.
bone meal/fish bone is one of my favorite high P ferts but it is very expensive for turf use,bat/bird guano's are king organic type ferts but again big bucks and not for turf use but if you got the coin i say go for it and apply, rock phos is very cheap and a great amendment to add to soil/ post aswell, long term supply, and many other rock dusts are excellent mineral sources containing some P depending? many grain/animal ferts/manures contain plenty of P, i try not to get to caught up on analysis for the simple fact because with true organics these inputs are bug food first and second their mineral value determines how much of that mineral is present in % in organic bound form to a degree i guess?, bugs will make available minuet amounts from it's surroundings as long as the nutes are present, and what the plant asks for, so a product containing 1/1/1 will provide enough nutes as long as biology is working and cycling nutes correctly
it will provide all the nutes needed for plant growth

if a soil shows low P and the soil is poor,containing little OM, adding synthedic P sources is only a quick fix and will ultimately lock up other nutes in the process beside leeching away, applying starter fert multiple times a year for years is just plain dumb IMHO.
build the soil structure, and most impotently built ur micro community, they are the keys to unlocking the bound nutes already present, and the quickest way to that goal is to apply a good compost

mycorrihzial colonization depends on NO APPLIED PHOSPHOROUS

Unbelievable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

Why don't you get a hobby or something and stop following me around. While you're at it, look up the definition of "greater than".

See, this is what I mean. You can't even keep track of what you post, so you make wise ass sarcastic comments to cover you tracks instead of just admitting you were wrong.

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

I'd be interested to see a labeled bone meal product that has a P value greater than 25. I haven't seen anything labeled product available to consumers greater than 15 P.

Took me all of 1 min to find that product, yet you haven't seen a consumer product more than 15? I wasn't aware people outside of homeowners purchased bone meal in 2 lb canisters.

Further more, I posted a link to my reference instead of just trying to appear like I know it all ..... where is yours WBO? You just throw a bunch of numbers out there, which BTW according to the doc I referenced, were mostly wrong.

Lots of different types of products with bone meal. Why would you chose a single product, post the analysis of it, and say this is what you can expect?

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

There are organic fertilizers that are high in phosphorus. Bone meal is one that's about 4-12-0.

See, you are doing it to yourself. If you expect people to take your word at face value on this forum you are sadly mistaken, especially when it is wrong. Guess what, I question any unreferenced information that doesn't sit right, you are not special in this regard. There is WAY too much B.S. information that floats around on forums, should I just ignore it when I know better, especially in a forum I actively participate in?

As far as following you, get over yourself. So now I am not allowed to read or participate in topics you post it? Am I also not allowed to question the information you post? Should I check with you before I post replies to topics you get to "first"?

[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

SmallAxe, growing,

What you guys wrote reminded me of something I read about a year ago. There's a resaerch that has a website where she publishes gardening myths. One of them was about phosphorus and mychorizae. Basically lack of P results in shallow roots, shallower roots make the plant secrete an acid that attracts mychorizae to colonize on the roots to help provide P.

Found it. Seems appropriate it's titled The Myth of Beneficial Bone Meal ...

So what are you saying? Plants are better off without the Mycorrhizae?
What do these 2 paragraphs, from your link, mean?

"Why does the myth of phosphorus-induced root stimulation persist? The answer probably lies in the effect phosphorus fertilizers have on mycorrhizal relationships. When plant roots are in low phosphorus environments, they exude organic acids from their root tips. These acids allow mycorrhizal fungi to penetrate the roots and form the networks that assist plant roots in taking up water and nutrients. Mycorrhizae are particularly adept at extracting phosphorus from the soil.

If phosphorus levels are too high, however, the roots do not exude the organic acids and mycorrhizal connections do not form. This forces the plant to put more resources into root growth to compensate for the lack of mycorrhizae. So in a sense phosphorus will increase root growth – but at an added cost to the plant. The resources expended by the plant in growing additional roots to take the place of mycorrhizae are not available for other plant needs."

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Originally Posted by ICT Bill

mycorrihzial colonization depends on NO APPLIED PHOSPHOROUS

Unbelievable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

really........

[WannaBeOrganic]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

So what are you saying? Plants are better off without the Mycorrhizae?
What do these 2 paragraphs, from your link, mean?

I think it means exactly what it says. If there is enough phosphorus in the soil, the plant will grow deep roots to get it. If there isn't enough it will attract mycorrhizae to help it get what phosphorus is there.

I don't think she says that the plants are better off without mycorrhizae but it doesn't need them depending on the level of P. If you have plenty of P in the soil then the plants don't excrete the acid that attracts mycorrhizae so buying mycorrhizae to innoculate the soil would be a waste of money.

What seems like it might be interesting is if you start off providing enough phosphorus. This will cause the grass to work on bigger/deeper roots. This will help keep it looking better in the summer heat. Then let the phosphorus drop so mycorrhizae can colonize the roots. Now you have the previous root growth and mycorrihizae working together.

That's just speculation based on what she said. I haven't looked into it yet. It would depend on if the roots will shrink once P drops and if so how fast do they shrink. Maybe you need to do something like one year with P, 2 years without P or something like that. Would be an interesting experiment.

[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

I think it means exactly what it says. If there is enough phosphorus in the soil, the plant will grow deep roots to get it. If there isn't enough it will attract mycorrhizae to help it get what phosphorus is there.

I don't think she says that the plants are better off without mycorrhizae but it doesn't need them depending on the level of P. If you have plenty of P in the soil then the plants don't excrete the acid that attracts mycorrhizae so buying mycorrhizae to innoculate the soil would be a waste of money.

What seems like it might be interesting is if you start off providing enough phosphorus. This will cause the grass to work on bigger/deeper roots. This will help keep it looking better in the summer heat. Then let the phosphorus drop so mycorrhizae can colonize the roots. Now you have the previous root growth and mycorrihizae working together. ....

Yes, I agree that that is what is being said. It makes sense, however - Deeper roots with a fresh app of P at the surface? P does not move through the soil at all - Correct?

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Originally Posted by ICT Bill

mycorrihzial colonization depends on NO APPLIED PHOSPHOROUS

Unbelievable !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

why do you insist in busting my B@lls? ur not a gardener, you are not in the field, you sell questionable products to the unsuspecting type that doesn't know any better,

i know all ur info ONLY comes from what you read or are told and have NO field experience or field observation to rely on so why do you always think you know??? yes possibly depending on the situation high levels of soluble P in the soil environment could prevent/discourage a mycorrhzail association
but does't that all depend on a lot of different things? plant type,soil type, ete ete. growing turf aside where did i say to dump a ton of rock phos on the soil? or bone meal,?


question..? say you start with a soil medium with very low nutrient levels across the board, would it not be advisable to amend the soil with different naturally SLOW release mineral's that contain some P-,and "K Ca Mg S "ete ete
- very necessary plant nutrient because the plan is to inoculate with myco strain's?

and if not where is the P going to come from, are the myco going to mine it from the air??? are the myco going to set up shop and provide P emedindly if needed?
and since still to this date you have not released ANY of this research you say you have can you tell me how long it takes for a turf growing in a soil lacking P or a soil that is not providing sufficient P to the plant how long does it take after a myco inoculation takes place, how long
will it take for the plant to benefit and the myco help fix the deficiency???

ill take my chances adding correct amounts of different SLOW release nutes and let the soil work out who stays and are really needed when their needed
beside spores lye dorment for years till needed no?

question 2, bone meal, ever use it?? honestly? do you know how much is too much to prevent myco association? you tested? never mind i already know the answer.

this is from Rodale institute site and i believe David Douds research.
http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield...viddouds.shtml

One unexpected finding of Douds' work at Rodale "is that mycorrhizae can be used to increase the yield of crops even in soils that are very high in phosphorous." Some of the soils at the Rodale Farm which have been heavily composted, Douds notes, "have available P in excess of 300 parts/million"--well above the level at which mycorrhizal responses are typically seen, around 20-50 ppm available P. "The generalization would be that P as high as 300 would be a situation in which the plant can take up all the P that it needs by itself without relying on the mycorrhizal fungi." Douds believes that at high nutrient levels, some of the other benefits of MF--enhanced disease resistance, improved soil aggregation and better water relations--could be showing an effect.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

smallaxe, im not sure what your asking about the P not moving?

ground up powders/meals such as bone meal have more then just P, beside that once rained on it will move into the soil, i container grow/raised beds, i use these materials all the time, fantastic results if used wisely.

let me just talk about the rock P since it's a mine material and not of organic source. where the bone is more a food source compared to the rock meal,
faster break down plus the bone will contain N and other nutes and such

once the rock powder works into the soil and is Incorporated in the soil/OM the bugs will have a field day with it, major source of P Ca to draw from, once in biomass..the rest is obvious