Help me make transition to organic

[drugrep]

Originally Posted by dishboy

What percentage water loss or what where your weights before and after drying the clippings?
At 3% to 5% N this can be a substantial annual input especially if weekly clipping yield is high.

I assumed 80% loss due to evap.

[drugrep]

People really need to stop with word "Organic" and change to "Natural"

Elements are inorganic. Water is inorganic.

You can have a natural source of P, but it is still inorganic.

[WannaBeOrganic]

Originally Posted by drugrep

People really need to stop with word "Organic" and change to "Natural"

Elements are inorganic. Water is inorganic.

You can have a natural source of P, but it is still inorganic.

Based on your username I take it you probably have a background in chemistry. Different words can have a different meaning in different contexts. Just like a tossed salad means something different to someone in a restaurant and someone in prison.

[WannaBeOrganic]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

Yes, I agree that that is what is being said. It makes sense, however - Deeper roots with a fresh app of P at the surface? P does not move through the soil at all - Correct?

That article was about gardening and not lawn care so it is possible that bone meal would have been used at the time of planting or as an amendment that was thoroughly mixed into the soil.

It also didn't provide a high level of detail. It would be nice to know at exactly what level of P does grass work on root growth and when it attracts mycchorziae.

Also, is there some type of balance where you can get both. Mycchorziae colonization can help plants absorb water and nutrients better but is it sometimes better to have deeper roots instead? During the summer where you have greater evaporation of water from the soil, which one is better?

Mycchorizae help with disease resistance as well but there are other ways to accomplish that.

I haven't really had the time to look into much of this yet, maybe others have the answers to these questions. So weather you need to buy and add P is unknown to me but it seems clear that you don't need to inoculate the soil mycchorizae unless it doesn't contain any, which seems unlikely especially if the soil is organically managed. If the plants need mycchorizae they will attract and feed them which will cause them to multiply.

[drugrep]

My pH is high (7.7 on 1 test & 7.4 on another), Phosphorus locks up worse in acidic soil. I just feel as low as my P is, I'm doing the right thing using starter year round.

[WannaBeOrganic]

Originally Posted by drugrep

My pH is high (7.7 on 1 test & 7.4 on another), Phosphorus locks up worse in acidic soil. I just feel as low as my P is, I'm doing the right thing using starter year round.

Like they say, there are many ways to skin a cat. Sometimes you also have stop and think if skinning a cat is what you really should be doing.

On an organic lawn care forum you're bound to get some resistance when you say you have to use synthetics because you can't do the same with organic lawn care in a reasonable amount of time.

Like someone else suggested, the soil test may have only determined the available P in your soil. Since you have alkaline soil, maybe that swayed the results? You could have plenty of P, you just need to have it become available?

I'm curious how much P they recommended you add?

I don't know the answers to some of these questions but I pose them because I'm curious as to what they might be.

[ICT Bill]

Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic

Like they say, there are many ways to skin a cat. Sometimes you also have stop and think if skinning a cat is what you really should be doing.

On an organic lawn care forum you're bound to get some resistance when you say you have to use synthetics because you can't do the same with organic lawn care in a reasonable amount of time.

Like someone else suggested, the soil test may have only determined the available P in your soil. Since you have alkaline soil, maybe that swayed the results? You could have plenty of P, you just need to have it become available?

I'm curious how much P they recommended you add?

I don't know the answers to some of these questions but I pose them because I'm curious as to what they might be.

My position is: don't chase PH

Mycorrhizae can increase root mass by 600%, talk about deep roots.

Sometimes you have to choose a path, go one way or another. I choose no applied P, you will not find P in any of our products. Mycorrhizae and sustainable ways of supporting the herd is the way to go

BTW, welcome drugrep. I haven't been around here a lot lately you may have been here quite a bit, but welcome

[WannaBeOrganic]

Originally Posted by ICT Bill

Mycorrhizae can increase root mass by 600%, talk about deep roots.

Sometimes you have to choose a path, go one way or another. I choose no applied P, you will not find P in any of our products. Mycorrhizae and sustainable ways of supporting the herd is the way to go

That's interesting, I haven't been able to find anything to support your assertion that mycorrhizae can dramatically increase root mass by the amount you claim. I would be interested in seeing an unbiased independent reference if you have one.

Everything I've read seems to indicate that plants attract and feed mycorrhizae so that they multiply when the plant doesn't have the root mass to extract water and nutrients on its own.

Unless you're talking about the extra surface area that mycorrhizae provide, but that's not technically the plant's root per se.

[Pristine1]

OK, guys.... I think enough is enough. We don't have to argue about every stupid post do we????? If someone makes a claim, that is all it is, a claim. If someone else chooses to follow that claim without doing any research on their own, that is their risk. I would like to think that most people are intelligent enough to check other sources for information before putting things into practice. For instance, the milk thing on another post, I googled it, and there are a number of entries for it. It is my choice to do it or not based on what I learned.

Lets move on from this stupid bickering....my kids are home for the summer, and I think the crap in this forum is worse!....and lets continue helping each other out, with the caveat that one should research anything they are doing.

My .02.

[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by growingdeeprootsorganicly

smallaxe, im not sure what your asking about the P not moving?

ground up powders/meals such as bone meal have more then just P, beside that once rained on it will move into the soil, i container grow/raised beds, i use these materials all the time, fantastic results if used wisely.

let me just talk about the rock P since it's a mine material and not of organic source. where the bone is more a food source compared to the rock meal,
faster break down plus the bone will contain N and other nutes and such

once the rock powder works into the soil and is Incorporated in the soil/OM the bugs will have a field day with it, major source of P Ca to draw from, once in biomass..the rest is obvious

I agree that different forms of P can be 'worked into' the soil will fine results.

My point was that if you apply P to the surface and it is bound to the soil at the surface, that is where it is going to stay. Those soil particles must be physically moved - in order for the P that is attached to them to move. No leaching possible.
N, of course just washes freely through the soil without much bonding at all. Especially with sand.