Organics, All or Nothing?

[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by Kiril

Don't bet on it.

See what I mean... To me it looks like those salts were dissolved and settled into the low spot in one picture, and acroos the top of the other field entirely.
Where were those pictures taken and is it really salt??

[phasthound]

Originally Posted by Kiril

My viewpoint .... people should do their homework before taking exception to others posts.

Good, since I know you've done your homework, tell us in your own words what happens when organic matter is decomposed?

[Tim Wilson]

Originally Posted by JDUtah

not very important? Ummm... helllllllllllo?

If microbes didn't produce ions (the same exact one's in fertilizers), how is non-soluble organic "fertilizer" made available to plants? Really, please answer this.

K'mon man! It is the very CORE of what you like so much about the association of plants and soil microbes!

JD, I was just trying to be nice and let you off the hook, rather than pick apart the phrasing you used. I was referencing my misunderstanding of what the heck you meant by your statement;

Note usually. In fact, most of the ions that are in fertilizers are produced by microbes themselves.

Do you mean that microbes make the same ions as are found in fertilizers or do you mean that microbes (themselves) produce the ions which are in fertilizers. The latter means that microbes are utilized to produce synthetic fertilizers.

Why do you instead use this to attempt to belittle? I’ve already stated my stance in one of the two current threads on the subject.

You continue to speak from a standpoint of ignorance. Just because the molecular structure of synthetic ions and natural ions are similar and just because various bacteria feed on ions in synthetic fertilizers does not equate to; there is nothing wrong with using synthetics supposedly responsibly or correctly.

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by phasthound

Good, since I know you've done your homework, tell us in your own words what happens when organic matter is decomposed?

What is this ..... biology 101?

Decompose = break down into constituent parts.

[JDUtah]

Originally Posted by Kiril

What is this ..... biology 101?

Decompose = break down into constituent parts.

lol Kiril I know you know you are dodging the bullet.

And quit honestly it appears like two of you need a refresher course in... biology 101.

It is basic stuff after all.

BTW I am still waiting for an answer. Do soil microbes use the same ions as are found in synthetic fertilizers?

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

See what I mean... To me it looks like those salts were dissolved and settled into the low spot in one picture, and acroos the top of the other field entirely.
Where were those pictures taken and is it really salt??

In both cases the salt deposition is most likely due to E(T) exceeding precipitation. The second pic is in India, not sure where the first one is. Here is one from CO.

[Kiril]

Tell me JD ... what exactly do I need to be refreshed on?

Perhaps you would care to explain how microbes produce the very same ions as are found in synthetic fertilizers? You made the statement .... now clarify it.

And with respect to your sad attempt at deflection, I have no intention of entertaining your ridiculous straw man argument.

[ICT Bill]

what is interesting about this debate every time it comes up is that no one seems to listen

almost (maybe everything) everything that hits the soil is food for something, be it fertilizer, dead mouse or an old shoe. The microbial populations will increase to the point of how they can exist with the food available, case in point is the oil spill spring 2010 in the gulf, the microbe population that likes to eat oil exploded and consumed a majority of the oil that was spilled after the food was consumed there is typically a huge die off and those dead microbes are consumed by something else

If you are applying fertilizers you are selecting for the microbes that like to eat fertilizer, if you are applying a diverse food like compost or a ferment of many inputs, kelp, fish, sugars, carbohydrates, amino acids you are selecting for a much wider variety of microorganisms and the higher predators that consume them and the ones that consume them and the ones that consumes them

It is about the type of food that you are applying to get the best result, one thing that is often forgotten is that the plants themselves are also feeding the microbes in the soil through exudates and in turn making nutrients plant available in the soil to the plant, these symbiotic relationships in the soil, when nurtured, can be a powerful way to reduce inputs

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by ICT Bill

what is interesting about this debate every time it comes up is that no one seems to listen

Or read studies posted.

Originally Posted by ICT Bill

almost (maybe everything) everything that hits the soil is food for something, be it fertilizer, dead mouse or an old shoe. The microbial populations will increase to the point of how they can exist with the food available, case in point is the oil spill spring 2010 in the gulf, the microbe population that likes to eat oil exploded and consumed a majority of the oil that was spilled after the food was consumed there is typically a huge die off and those dead microbes are consumed by something else

If you are applying fertilizers you are selecting for the microbes that like to eat fertilizer, if you are applying a diverse food like compost or a ferment of many inputs, kelp, fish, sugars, carbohydrates, amino acids you are selecting for a much wider variety of microorganisms and the higher predators that consume them and the ones that consume them and the ones that consumes them

It is about the type of food that you are applying to get the best result, one thing that is often forgotten is that the plants themselves are also feeding the microbes in the soil through exudates and in turn making nutrients plant available in the soil to the plant, these symbiotic relationships in the soil, when nurtured, can be a powerful way to reduce inputs

I for one can not even begin to pretend I have complete knowledge of plant-soil-microbe-environment interactions, even with my educational background, no one in their right mind would. On the other hand, it would appear JD does have this knowledge that no one else possesses and fully understands all of these complex interactions .... pretty damned amazing.

[ICT Bill]

Originally Posted by Kiril

Or read studies posted.



I for one can not even begin to pretend I have complete knowledge of plant-soil-microbe-environment interactions, even with my educational background, no one in their right mind would. On the other hand, it would appear JD does have this knowledge that no one else possesses and fully understands all of these complex interactions .... pretty damned amazing.

Its hard to be specific with such a complicated subject, there are WAY too many variables, we can generalize and kind of get close