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  #51  
Old 01-17-2011, 01:52 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
I NEVER said that all microbes consume mineral salts. That is an assumption you made.
Perhaps, but a correct assumption nonetheless.
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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Kiril, yes or no... do microbes use the same ions that are found in synthetic fertilizers?
That seems like a pretty all inclusive statement/question ..... no?

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
The above is the only problem I have in this whole debate.
Then I guess you have a problem with your own position.

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Tell me Kiril, when have I EVER stated this? (Man you assume way too much.
Your implications are crystal clear JD, and you damn well know it.
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I wanna i wanna i wanna... but I wont.

ok i will...

salts kill microbes.... NOT!

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Actually the incorrect statement began with "salts do kill microbes"
Salts can and do kill microbes .... among other things. This is not an incorrect statement in as much as it does not clarify how salts can impact microbial communities. On the flip side, it is not any less (in)accurate a statement than you saying salts don't kill microbes ..... go figure.

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Actually it is a critical component. And I dare say much more than "some microbes" use these basic building blocks.
Is it? Perhaps it is a "critical component" to your argument, but not one with the issues which surround chemical fertilizers and their impacts on soils and soil biology. But if you insist, please list all the microbes that use these synthetic/organic/mineral plant nutrients and where they typically obtain them and what percentage of each of the three sources listed is utilized.

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I agree with this statement when read literally and standing on its own. YAY we agree on something!!
And yet you still insist on spreading your uninformed bullshiit.
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  #52  
Old 01-17-2011, 04:05 PM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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Sorry Smallaxe I wrote a long reply but lawnsite was shifting gears and ate it. I may rewrite it later but in three words; it's a choice.
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  #53  
Old 01-18-2011, 12:32 AM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Is it? Perhaps it is a "critical component" to your argument, but not one with the issues which surround chemical fertilizers and their impacts on soils and soil biology. But if you insist, please list all the microbes that use these synthetic/organic/mineral plant nutrients and where they typically obtain them and what percentage of each of the three sources listed is utilized.
OK let’s start with a bacteria type that organic fert nuts are crazy about. The Nittrogen fixing bacteria known as diazotrophs. These bacteria produce an enzyme known as Nitrogenase. This enzyme captures the Nitrogen found in the atmosphere and converts it into Ammonia (a "salt fertilizer"). They then use another enzyme called Glutamine synthetase to capture the N that is in the Amonia they just produced and use it to build glutamine. For those who don’t know glutamine is a Proteinogenic amino acid. Proteinogenic amino acids are basic building blocks used to make proteins. Protiens are the powerhouses of the cell if you will.



So here you have a soil microbe that captures Nitrogen from the atmosphere, turns it into “chemical fertilizer” (ammonia) in order to use it to make proteins. In fact, one of the enzymes I mentioned itself (Glutamine Synthetase) contains another "salt fertilizer" ion known as Ammonium.

This is just one example but there are thousands of types of soil microbes and each uses thousands of molecules to build itself and perform different functions. There is no way that I can provide an all inclusive list. But you knew that already didn’t you Kiril?



So as an alternative, let’s turn to some course notes provided by PhD. Stephen T. Abedon. He is a professor in the Department of Microbiology at Ohio State University. I found them in seconds using a simple google search for "Bacteria essential nutrients".

These notes cover the chapter entitled “Microbial Nutrition”. Note the underlined words.

Quote:
• Microbial nutrient requirements

a. Common microbial nutritional requirements include:
i. water
ii. a carbon source
iii. an energy source
iv. nitrogen
v. sulfur
vi. phosphorus
vii. potassium
viii. magnesium
ix. calcium
x. oxygen*
xi. various trace elements
xii. various organic growth factors**
xiii. *Not molecular oxygen but oxygen atoms incorporated into compounds other than O2.
xiv. **Of all common nutrient requirements, the need for specific organic growth factors is least shared among microorganisms.

b. Source utilization variation:
i. Note that not all microorganisms do or are even able to assimilate all of these nutrients from the same source(s).

ii. "There are many types of laboratory prepared media available for the isolation and the cultivation of bacteria. It is important to understand that whatever growth medium is used, it must provide the necessary nutritional requirements for the organism you wish to grow." (Krueger & Kolodziej, 1986)

• Nitrogen
a. Amino acids:
i. Used in amino acids and nucleic acids.
ii. Possible organic source = amino acids.
b. Inorganic sources:
i. Possible inorganic sources include:
1. NH4+ (ammonium---nitrogen in its lowest oxidation state)
2. NO3- (nitrate---nitrogen in its highest oxidation state)
3. atmospheric nitrogen (nitrogen fixing)
• Nitrogen fixation
a. Nitrogen from air:
i. The conversion of gaseous, elementary nitrogen (N2) into nitrogen available to cellular metabolism.
ii. Ultimately this is where all of the nitrogen found in all organisms comes from.(including soil microbes)

b. Uncommon metabolic pathway:
i. Only a minority of bacteria are capable of nitrogen fixation.
ii. See particularly Rhizobium spp..

• Sulfur
a. Amino acids:
i. Sulfur is found in some amino acids and in various vitamins.
ii. Possible organic source is sulfur-containing amino acids.
b. Possible inorganic sources included SO42- (sulfate ion).


• Phosphorus
a. Phosphorus is found in nucleic acids and phospholipids.
b. The dominant inorganic source of phosphorus is phosphate ion (PO43-).


• Trace elements
a. Usually present:
i. Trace elements are often assumed to be present unless highly pure synthetic components are utilized.
ii. Even distilled water often contains adequate amounts of these element for growth.
b. Enzyme cofactors are basically used as enzyme cofactors.
c. Examples of cofactors include:
i. copper
ii. iron
iii. molybdenum
iv. zinc
v. cobalt
vi. manganese
d. "Many microorganisms require a variety of trace elements, tiny amounts of minerals such as copper, iron, zinc, and cobalt, usually in the form of ions. Trace elements often serve as cofactors in enzymatic reactions. All organisms require some sodium and chloride, and halophiles require large amounts of these ions. Potassium, zinc, magnesium, and manganese (all plant nutrients) are used to activate certain enzymes. Cobalt is required by organisms that can synthesize vitamin B12. Iron is required for the synthesis of heme-containing compounds (such as cytochromes of the electron transport system) and for certain enzymes. Although little iron is required, a shortage severly ******s growth. Calcium is required by gram-positive bacteria for synthesis of cells walls and by spore-forming organisms for synthesis of spores." (p. 149, Black, 1996)
Like I said, this is basic college stuff. Entry level. I have to go, but can expand on the areas I highlighted if anyone wants.

The bottom line is... YES! Microbes need nutrients! And YES! These nutrients often include the SAME EXACT IONS as found in chemical fertilizers. Some of those that this Doctor mentioned are NH4 (Ammonium ion), NO3 (Nitrate ion), SO4 (Sulfate ion), PO4 (phosphate ion)

And you guys call me ignorant???

To the OP. sorry we hijacked the thread. But IMO no, organics do NOT have to be all or nothing. Unless of course you want certification from one of the organic associations.
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  #54  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:01 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
OK let’s start with a bacteria type that organic fert nuts are crazy about. The Nittrogen fixing bacteria known as diazotrophs. These bacteria produce an enzyme known as Nitrogenase. This enzyme captures the Nitrogen found in the atmosphere and converts it into Ammonia (a "salt fertilizer"). They then use another enzyme called Glutamine synthetase to capture the N that is in the Amonia they just produced and use it to build glutamine. For those who don’t know glutamine is a Proteinogenic amino acid. Proteinogenic amino acids are basic building blocks used to make proteins. Protiens are the powerhouses of the cell if you will.

So here you have a soil microbe that captures Nitrogen from the atmosphere, turns it into “chemical fertilizer” (ammonia) in order to use it to make proteins. In fact, one of the enzymes I mentioned itself (Glutamine Synthetase) contains another "salt fertilizer" ion known as Ammonium.
OK Mr. google scholar .... lets start with the fact that you keep calling ammonia a "salt fertilizer". Ammonia (NH3) is not a salt .... it is a gas. Ammonium compounds/salts are what you mean .... and they are not a "salt fertilizer", they are an ionic compound. So based on the fact that you can't even reproduce what you read accurately, the rest is worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
This is just one example but there are thousands of types of soil microbes and each uses thousands of molecules to build itself and perform different functions. There is no way that I can provide an all inclusive list. But you knew that already didn’t you Kiril?
Yes, I did. The question was meant to demonstrate the absurdity of your statements.

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
So as an alternative, let’s turn to some course notes provided by PhD. Stephen T. Abedon. He is a professor in the Department of Microbiology at Ohio State University. I found them in seconds using a simple google search for "Bacteria essential nutrients".

These notes cover the chapter entitled “Microbial Nutrition”. Note the underlined words.

Like I said, this is basic college stuff. Entry level. I have to go, but can expand on the areas I highlighted if anyone wants.
Provide the link if you are going to cut and paste JD.

http://mansfield.osu.edu/~sabedon/biol2015.htm

Hardly basic entry level college stuff, microbiology is not a GE, nor is the course specific to soil microbiology .... but by all means JD .... please do expand (without the cut and paste). Just because you can cut and paste doesn't mean you understand. Be careful JD .... you are getting close to Gerry status here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
The bottom line is... YES! Microbes need nutrients! And YES! These nutrients often include the SAME EXACT IONS as found in chemical fertilizers. Some of those that this Doctor mentioned are NH4 (Ammonium ion), NO3 (Nitrate ion), SO4 (Sulfate ion), PO4 (phosphate ion)
Stop putting words in the professors mouth JD.

Furthermore, you have heard of mineralization .... right? Care to explain the difference between an inorganic ion derived from an organic source vs. a synthetic one?

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And you guys call me ignorant???
Yup ... and accurately so.

Let's recap .... you have focused on a single group of bacteria .... didn't reproduce what you read accurately, and didn't provide the answers I requested, even for the bacteria you specifically addressed. You then cut and paste some lectures notes as if they provided the answers .... but they didn't. Does that pretty much cover it JD?

Sorry JD, but as long as you continue to spew this uninformed crap every couple of months without doing the necessary research, or at the very least reading the publication list I have posted on numerous occasions, you will continue to be ignorant on this subject and I will continue to point it out.
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  #55  
Old 01-18-2011, 08:49 AM
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Furthermore, you have heard of mineralization .... right? Care to explain the difference between an inorganic ion derived from an organic source vs. a synthetic one?

To me, the answer to this question is the most interesting part of this thread and maybe the most important. I'm not smart enough to know the answer but I plan to read up on mineralization.
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  #56  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:16 AM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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That's all you have Kiril? Attack me? What about the points I made. You didn't once talk about the fact that those bacteria produce "chemical nutrients". (<-- is that a better, more generalized term for you?)

Nor do you address the fact that he lists the most popular chemical fertilizers as nutrients for microbes?

And you say I divert and deflect...

You've got nothing but to attack me? What a joke. You remind me of Professor Crawford in the movie Finding Forrester.
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  #57  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:50 AM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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JD & Kiril, you both have good info to share, just stick to that and leave the personal comments out of it. Thanks.
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  #58  
Old 01-18-2011, 11:53 AM
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starry night starry night is online now
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JD & Kiril, you both have good info to share, just stick to that and leave the personal comments out of it. Thanks.
I agree about the personal comments but there is a challenge of substantive information that has to be decided.
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  #59  
Old 01-18-2011, 12:04 PM
ecoguy ecoguy is offline
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JD. You may be right that microbes are not killed out right although they do seem to be hampered by continued chemcial fertilizer use. It seems arrogant to think microbes in the soil can't do their job properly unless we intervene. It makes more sense for us to study how they work and then support that.

Anyways, I think the issue of chemical fertilizers is more about sustainability. If you could focus your arguements proving that, I would listen.
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  #60  
Old 01-18-2011, 12:28 PM
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JD. It seems arrogant to think microbes in the soil can't do their job properly unless we intervene. It makes more sense for us to study how they work and then support that. .
I agree but I would add that we cause problems with the microbes working properly when we do intervene.....negatively.
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