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  #61  
Old 01-18-2011, 12:46 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
That's all you have Kiril? Attack me? What about the points I made.
You didn't make any points worth discussing ... you simply regurgitated something you read ... and rather poorly I might add. Furthermore you did not even begin to address the question you were attempting to answer.

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
You didn't once talk about the fact that those bacteria produce "chemical nutrients". (<-- is that a better, more generalized term for you?)
Not following you JD. Is this your attempt to defend your statement concerning microbes producing the very same ions as synthetic ferts? Sorry JD, but one specialized group of bacteria converting atmospheric N2 to NH3 doesn't validate your all inclusive statement.

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
Nor do you address the fact that he lists the most popular chemical fertilizers as nutrients for microbes?
He does .... where? All I see is a list of possible sources of inorganic ions. He makes no mention of where they come from .... does he? Yet that didn't stop you from misrepresenting what he wrote ... did it?

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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
You've got nothing but to attack me? What a joke. You remind me of Professor Crawford in the movie Finding Forrester.
Not an attack JD .... simply speaking the truth.
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  #62  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:01 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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@ecoguy

A reduction in diversity is in effect, "killing them outright". To exclude a certain set of microbes in favor of another set due to chemical inputs is in effect "killing them outright". As soil salinity rises, pH falls, soil structure changes, etc..... you get even more reductions in diversity .... once again the net effect is "killing them outright".

The statement "salt kills microbes", while grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. Likewise, the statement "salts don't kill microbes", again grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. To use one grossly over generalized statement to invalidate another grossly over generalized statement as JD does on a regular basis is simply absurd.
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  #63  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:15 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
The statement "salt kills microbes", while grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. Likewise, the statement "salts don't kill microbes", again grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. To use one grossly over generalized statement to invalidate another grossly over generalized statement as JD does on a regular basis is simply absurd.
I'll give you that. Perhaps we should call this an ending agreement/ point for this particular flare up of this never ending argument? I'm starting to get bored, and the argument is maneuvering to personal attacks. Time to put it to rest for now. So... we agree that...

"The statement 'salt kills microbes', while grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. Likewise, the statement 'salts don't kill microbes', again grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement."
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  #64  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:20 PM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
@ecoguy

A reduction in diversity is in effect, "killing them outright". To exclude a certain set of microbes in favor of another set due to chemical inputs is in effect "killing them outright". As soil salinity rises, pH falls, soil structure changes, etc..... you get even more reductions in diversity .... once again the net effect is "killing them outright".

The statement "salt kills microbes", while grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. Likewise, the statement "salts don't kill microbes", again grossly over generalized, is not an inaccurate statement. To use one grossly over generalized statement to invalidate another grossly over generalized statement as JD does on a regular basis is simply absurd.
Is diversity reduced if a salt as 21-0 is used (sparingly/wintertime ) on a Alkaline soil where the sulfur will lower the PH into a a more useful level for turf?l
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  #65  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:31 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
Is diversity reduced if a salt as 21-0 is used (sparingly/wintertime ) on a Alkaline soil where the sulfur will lower the PH into a a more useful level for turf?l
There is absolutely no way that I can answer that question, even if I did know the actual fert you are using.
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  #66  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:42 PM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
There is absolutely no way that I can answer that question, even if I did know the actual fert you are using.
21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate , 21% N 24% surfer.
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  #67  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:52 PM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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I can never really understand what it is that JD thinks he is arguing. It is almost as if he is arguing against himself. I do feel that many of his statements can be a little dangerous if taken as fact so hopefully everyone does their own research. I'm going to attempt to post a PDF of a chapter I ran across on the internet. I believe it is from the book The Rhizosphere An Ecological Perspective and authors of this chapter are Griffiths, Christensen and Bonkowski who are very respected researchers.
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  #68  
Old 01-18-2011, 01:59 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate , 21% N 24% surfer.
Knowing that changes nothing. I still can't and won't comment on potential impacts.
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  #69  
Old 01-18-2011, 02:19 PM
NattyLawn NattyLawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
Is diversity reduced if a salt as 21-0 is used (sparingly/wintertime ) on a Alkaline soil where the sulfur will lower the PH into a a more useful level for turf?l
If you think you may be applying something that may reduce diversity, why not follow that up with something to bring the diversity back? While a lot of people into organics will not soil amendments like lime and sulfur, I feel sometimes you need to apply these products for short term gain for the customer. When you correct the soil you then can bring the biology back.
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  #70  
Old 01-18-2011, 03:22 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wilson View Post
Do you mean that microbes make the same ions as are found in fertilizers
Yes. This is one way of saying it.

Quote:
or do you mean that microbes (themselves) produce the ions which are in fertilizers. The latter means that microbes are utilized to produce synthetic fertilizers.
Yes. This is how the organic LCO feeds the grass.

There is generally zero difference between an ion produced by a microbe and an ion produced by large scale synthesis.

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