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  #31  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:21 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
phasthound, if many of the microbes are not culturable, then there must necessarily be more in the soil than the millions of species per gram that we can already identify. Thus, adding more microbes or adding sugars or carbon to the soil could only move the needle a microscopic amount. This has been proven in the research. Your links do nothing to disprove this.

Sure, our understanding of soil microbiology can change, but if you read the current 2011 and 2012 literature, you'll find that the conclusions are the same as Zuberer's. You're also overlookign the obvious differences between annual and perennial crops and legume production vs. non-legume production. What works best for crops (as the USDA article was written for) is not always best for lawns. For example, a lawn with as much organic matter as is recommended for wheat production would be thatchy, spongy, and full of moss and disease.

You can keep using microbial snake oils if you like -- I certainly am not here to tel what you can or can't do. Many people fall for the fertilizer parts of those products. They get so excited thinking that the microbes or sugars worked, when in reality, all you're seeing is the N and Fe those products also have. You could have applied N and Fe yourself, and gotten the same results for a much lower price.

Bottom line, all the scientific research for soil microbes in turf (from 1950 to 2012) tells us that soil microbes are ubiquitous in the environment and there is little we can do to negatively influence their populations. The research also tells us that the best thnig we can do for microbial populations is to manage a healthy stand of turf.

Over the last 60 years, no scientific evidence has disproven that. I'm certainly not going to throw my money behind something that 60 years of science says doesn't work.
The products I look at have pretty low N and not enough to elicite the responce seen. Even if the product were 100% N and Fe the application at 8# per AC would not give the responce alone.

As a matter of fact there is little we can do to significantly change the soil hence the reason we have to keep applying fertilizers of any type to turf. Granted, a little bit of sugar and colonizing with microbes there is little chance they will thrive in poor soils. The Carbon / Nitrogen cycles and the impact on plants and bacteria is pretty complex and never in a steady enviroment.

In an old forest we have leaves fall, and continually decomposing over centuries.... in turf we rake up the leaves and often take away the grass clippings.
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  #32  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:22 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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There are lots of different microbes in the soil... some cause 'Brown Patch, take-all-patch. negrotic ring spot, etc., etc.

microbes live on food and water and even eat up gasoline/oil spills... they are everpresent and unstoppable...

The point of the various writings is that 'good cultural practices', yet we never seem to get to the details of what good cultural practices really are... 1" of water per week? mow at 3.5" height in the heat of summer?

Soil Structure is very important and it is created by what methods?
The role that microbes play in the formation of soil structure, is likely different than the role played by other decomposers, disease promoters, carbon exchangers, or AM mututualists...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #33  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:34 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
There are lots of different microbes in the soil... some cause 'Brown Patch, take-all-patch. negrotic ring spot, etc., etc.

microbes live on food and water and even eat up gasoline/oil spills... they are everpresent and unstoppable...

The point of the various writings is that 'good cultural practices', yet we never seem to get to the details of what good cultural practices really are... 1" of water per week? mow at 3.5" height in the heat of summer?

Soil Structure is very important and it is created by what methods?
The role that microbes play in the formation of soil structure, is likely different than the role played by other decomposers, disease promoters, carbon exchangers, or AM mututualists...
Proper management is dependant upon your crop and your goals for that crop.


http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/f...ages/VAM2.html
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  #34  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:47 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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The Nursery Crop Physiology lab at the Department of Horticulture has been working over the past 25 years with ectomycorrhizal and arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi under severe outplanting conditions (Texas lignite coal, strip mines, and highway revegetation sites). They have also characterized mycorrhizal associations in herbaceous and woody plant species and some of the mechanisms of enhanced drought, nutrient relations and temperature stress tolerance of mycorrhizal plants. Mycorrhizal plants can also be used to phytoremediate soil contaminated with petroleum and heavy metals such as chromium (Cr).

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/f...corrhizae.html
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  #35  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:42 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Originally Posted by Duekster View Post
Proper management is dependant upon your crop and your goals for that crop. ...
Grass, turf, cool-season grasses...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #36  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:47 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Originally Posted by Duekster View Post
The Nursery Crop Physiology lab at the Department of Horticulture has been working over the past 25 years with ectomycorrhizal and arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi under severe outplanting conditions (Texas lignite coal, strip mines, and highway revegetation sites). They have also characterized mycorrhizal associations in herbaceous and woody plant species and some of the mechanisms of enhanced drought, nutrient relations and temperature stress tolerance of mycorrhizal plants. Mycorrhizal plants can also be used to phytoremediate soil contaminated with petroleum and heavy metals such as chromium (Cr).

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/f...corrhizae.html
Still doesn't tell us how to make the AM fungi, be happy and thrive... do they thrive in any kind of environment or do they prefer certain living conditions, as does the rest of the living world...?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #37  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:01 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
The article cited by the OP seems to be little more than an opinion piece and has little scientific background. If you're reading something without references following it, its nothign more than one person's opinion -- not scientific fact.

While the OP's article does a good job highlighting some practices that are important in production ag systems, many of those practices are detrimental in turf systems. That is why I hate it when organic fert salesmen tell me how good their stuff is for growign corn and soybeans. I'm growing lawns -- not corn and soybeans! If the salesman can't adjust between the differences in the two cropping systems, he surely doesn't know anything abotu my business.

Anyhow, if you're going to talk about soil "health" and soil microbial interactions, you need to learn from the experts. Please read the article linked here:

http://aggie-turf.tamu.edu/files-200...ticle-2005.pdf
Amusing. You have replaced one "opinion" piece with another. The above piece is not referenced at all, it merely lists a very small handful of sources for "Further reading." Nice to see you skip .....
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  #38  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:19 PM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Still doesn't tell us how to make the AM fungi, be happy and thrive... do they thrive in any kind of environment or do they prefer certain living conditions, as does the rest of the living world...?
They thrive in symbiotic relationships with different plants. One would assume if you made a proper selection of the plant and the related VAM then you should be good to go. There is also the shotgun aproach many companies use, they blend many types in a package.

Note the harsh conditions sampled in the field trials.
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  #39  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:50 PM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...ems/M1272.html

In this link, they say the heavy use of nitrogen will interupt the Rhizobia symbiotic relationship with the plants.


Quote:
They can supply the plant with all of its nitrogen needs. In return, the host plant supplies the rhizobium with simple carbohydrates. The plant can give up to 20% of its supply of carbohydrates to the bacteria. However, if there is a sufficient supply of nitrogen in the soil to meet the plantís needs, the plant will not engage in the relationship with the bacteria.
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  #40  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:58 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Amusing. You have replaced one "opinion" piece with another. The above piece is not referenced at all, it merely lists a very small handful of sources for "Further reading." Nice to see you skip .....
The linked paper was a redux version of a peer-reviewed paper that was made easier to read for the general public. All the conclusion in the paper were taken from the author's own work and the work listed in the "further reading" section.

Still, no one has produced research to the contrary ....
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